One thing she noticed was that Bards actually got a lot of versatility within their music (Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Fascinate, etc.) while the Skald just gets Raging Song. Granted, Inspire Competence and Fascinate were used outside of combat, if at all, and really paled in comparison with Inspire Courage. She felt that also including some other benefits for the Skald outside of combat would be useful/appropriate.
I think one of the things almost everyone here is agreeing on is that Raging Song has rather limited usefulness. This means that the Skald needs to stand on class features other than raging music, so the question is...can it? Is there enough to make this class playable assuming Raging Song isn't going to be useful most of the time?
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Aw written, the skald's music is situational, with synergies with some parties but not with others. Comparing rage song to regular insire courage, it is of less utility - anyone who loves raging song also loves inspire courage, but the reverse is not true.
For a figher, paladin, or cavalier, the AC penalty can actually kill any synergy. Most medium-bab classes should benefit, with the possible exception of cleric and oracles (and rogue/ninjas, if the GM are cruel with the limitations). No full-caster class will benefit. This means that about half the classes will benefit, but not the most popular/powerful ones. In a party of five in PFS, you can expect synergy with 1 other character most of the time, 2-3 if you are lucky. Those who will really benefit are pet classes: summoners, druids, summon-specced clerics and arcane casters. Since summons really don't care much about defenses or hp economy, the buff from raging song really rocks.
Outside of song, the skald is a decent spellcaster and second-rank fighter with a nice ability to have that one specific cure from kenning. It has Haste, with conditional benefits others much the same as song.
As a fighter, the skald is about where the cleric is - which is not all that impressive.
Scribe Scroll still doesn't feel like it fits, neither thematically nor mechanically.
Thematically, Skald's are keepers of lore and knowledge, but it is by oral tradition, not written, that history is kept. A Skald would never write down and read the stories of his parties vast exploits, he would go off on an inspiring bout of storytelling, embellishing in the details and hyping up his buddies. If he pulled out a scroll and started reading it, he would be laughed out of the tavern, as no self respecting lore keeper would let themselves be seen needing to read the story of their exploits.
This is actually true. The reason we have the sagas is that they were penned down, but that only happened in the 12C, at least a hundred years after the events portrayed. Until that time, the sagas were oral.
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I still see no note on ragesong counting as bardic music for feats--only limitations (such as how many can be maintained at once) are mentioned.
i brought this up with the pre-revision thread--this kills a lot of legacy bard support, like lingering performance, extra performance, spellsong, harmonic spell, discordant voice, etc. etc.
this is a lot of help to lose for no reason, especially for a class so close to the bard anyway.
I think scribe scroll is supposed to be a rune spell, but it really doesn't make sense. +1 the oral tradition thing; skalds were known for their memories, not their penmanship. Plus, it encourages skalds to make scrolls of every bard, cleric, or sor/wiz spell in the game up to 6th level. I say ditch it.
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I'll be honest, I wanted to like the Skald, but I didn't, now I really like this class. It is now more of what I was looking for when they announced bloodrager. You can do combat, and support your team, and are not completely useless with a part of casters.
I liked this class before. The revisions have made it even better in my opinion. I have a player very eager to continue playtesting this class.
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- Raging song is no longer language-dependant.
So, essentially it's like when I'm listening to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUPDla44jfQ
The document states that : At the start of each ally’s turn in which they can hear the raging song, the skald’s allies must decide whether to accept or refuse its effects.
Should this be taken to mean that anyone can go in and out of the raging song or rather that they can start at any point they want but then need to wait until the skald stops his performance to be free from the raging song?
Seems awfully relevent for caster/figthers.
Yeah, a lot of the issues inherent with a rage mechanic have been lifted so I can see ragesong working for most classes outside of the true gish classes like the magus.
Even the magus could buff themselves and drop in. No spellstrike, but otherwise, you're golden.
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I'd be cool with replacing Scribe Scroll with something like "Rousing Tale" to provide a short term buff to mental faculties.
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This is much better.
The skald now has medium armour and marshal weapons and can self-rage with rage powers.
It also has an extremely good utility spell list and the ultimate utility spell power, Kenning.
Sure, the Raging Song isn't useful to everyone, but it doesn't need to be now, it is icing on the cake of this secondary/caster/fighter/gish.
Question: As Raging Song is not language dependent but requires an audible component, does that mean that Animal Companions can now benefit? They can hear the chanting fine, even if they don't understand the language.
Please let that be the case. If a Skald can make a Hunter's pet rage that would be an eye-opener.
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Question: As Raging Song is not language dependent but requires an audible component, does that mean that Animal Companions can now benefit? They can hear the chanting fine, even if they don't understand the language.
They sure can, and in fact that was almost certainly the primary reason for the change. (Since parties where the player characters don't share a language are incredibly rare.)
Contributor
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I find that the biggest potential downfalls of the skald are, as people mentioned, lack of combat abilities to compensate for 3/4 bab and lack of oomph / versatility in the raging song. Rather than throwing bonus feats at the class or pumping up the song, why not increase the number of rage powers the class gets? That's where the majority of the variability in the class lies anyway, and it would help both combat options and buffing through the raging song. They're also limited to which rage powers they can even pick, so why are they additionally limited in the amount?
I get that a lot of the hybrids slow progressions down to make sure they don't overshadow their base classes (bonus feats on warpriest/brawler, extra damage on investigator/slayer, etc.) but in this case we're already looking at a shallower pool to draw from, lower buff from the rage ability, and slower BAB to make skald not overpower the barbarian. A bard has skills and versatile buffs above and beyond anything a skald can do. Adding a couple more combat steroids to the skald can be a nice middle ground.
As is, I see myself spending multiple feats on Extra Rage Power in order to make raging song provide worthwhile buffs before getting to very late levels, which in turn starves the class for regular combat feats. Even if they start a level or two later than barbarians, every-other-rage-power progression would bring a lot to the table without making the class stupidly powerful. I really think the rage powers need to be treated as investigator talents, emulating a base class's abilities at the same rate but starting slightly delayed.
EDIT:
At 20th level, a skald’s raging song no longer gives allies a penalty to AC, nor limits what skills, abilities, or rage powers they can use.
however...
This cannot be a rage power that requires the creature to spend a standard action or rounds of rage to activate it. For example, the skald cannot choose terrifying howl (which requires a standard action to activate), but can choose knockback (which is made in place of a melee attack).
So the capstone currently lets you use any rage power you want, but you can't pick rage powers outside the normal limitation. If the intention is that the skald can take any rage power they normally qualify for but the only get to share from the limited selection (until they get their capstone), that needs to be reworded to be clarified.
You can take extra rage power feats.
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A couple of comments:
If you don't see the utility of having Scribe Scroll for a class with a small list of Spells Known, remember that the skald can use that feat in tandem with another spellcaster to create useful scrolls—scrolls that other caster can cast, or scrolls the skald can cast with Use Magic Device (or without UMD, if they're on the skald's spell list but not something he'd use so often as to want to actually learn it as a spell known).
And while Earth skalds shared oral histories, a skald in a fantasy world might not have that cultural tradition.
Question: As Raging Song is not language dependent but requires an audible component, does that mean that Animal Companions can now benefit? They can hear the chanting fine, even if they don't understand the language.
Yes, and this was a deliberate change, particularly for that reason.
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Contributor
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You can take extra rage power feats.
Yeah, I know. I even pointed out I would end up taking the feat multiple times to make up for the deficiency. This leads to fewer available feats to spend on combat power / survivability. The idea is, by getting more rage powers as class abilities, you add variability and potency while at the same time making it less feat starved.
Can we take extra peeformance round feats? Lingering performance?
I think the song being limited by turns really lets this class down ... yours only last three turns for the day and then that's your party trick over.
Actually it's 2 + level + Cha mod, just rather clumsily explained. Which will be about 5 at 1st level and 10 at 5th. 10 rounds is probably enough for a standard 4-encounter day because you're going to be casting spells for some of the time. By 10th level you've got plenty.
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I like most of the revision here, but seems a little light in skill points. All the skills of a Bard but only 4 skill points? Should probably have the 6 skill points of a Bard.
I think they were trying to use the skill point limit to let bards have something better than the skald outright, but given the emphasis on knowledges and perform, you're going to be hard pressed to get more than a single rank in most. 6+int seems better suited for it if they are supposed to emulate passing down traditions and legends.
If they want to increase the class's skill-based utility, I'd almost rather see a thematic variant of Versatile Performance than more skill points. (Not that I'd say no to more skill points.) That would give the Skald a reason to actually put points into their perform skills.
Maybe something like this:
Epic Orator (Ex)
At ### level, a skald can choose one type of Perform skill, from the list below. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the skald uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At ### level, the skald can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
The types of Perform that can be chosen with this ability and their associated skills are:
Oratory: Knowledge (Nobility), Diplomacy
Percussion: Knowledge (History), Intimidate
Sing: Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Geography)
String: Knowledge (History), Bluff
(I assigned the knowledge skills I thought were most relevant kind of at random. Someone else can probably do better.)
That setup:
- Buffs out a skald's skills
- Lets the skald be pretty good at relevant knowledge skills despite having little intrinsic use for Int.
- Gives the skald an incentive to actually be able to perform well, since the perform skills themselves are generally not the most useful, which makes it hard to justify taking them mechanically no matter how many skill points you have.
- Lets the skald do the thing where he's a history expert because he has all these epic tales and songs memorized, which is the whole theme of the class!
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lotsa stuff
I think you have a lot of good points about the lack of Int incentive, perform incentive, and knowledge points. Your epic orator concept is pretty cool, but I don't think they'd do something with knowledge overlaps if they already have bardic knowledge.
Maybe something like the Lore Warden's "Scholastic" ability would work. Instead of giving ranks for int skills and making them class skills, it could give ranks for knowledges or their perform checks. "Epic Orator" still works for it too.
A couple of comments:
If you don't see the utility of having Scribe Scroll for a class with a small list of Spells Known, remember that the skald can use that feat in tandem with another spellcaster to create useful scrolls
You can? Hey, that is really cool.
Question: As Raging Song is not language dependent but requires an audible component, does that mean that Animal Companions can now benefit? They can hear the chanting fine, even if they don't understand the language.Yes, and this was a deliberate change, particularly for that reason.
Cool! This was a very good change. :)
Even though I had hope for a Skald with more of a bard feel, I do think that the changes have led to a marked improvement of the class.
I still feel the class could do with a bonus feat at level 2, perhaps even same amount of bonus feats as the Cavalier.
I also feel the class could use some utility performance, either something like masterpieces or some out of combat performances or both.
Edit:
Can a Skald pick lingering performance (or extra performance) as a feat or will you include l lingering range song as a feat?
The Skald is very MAD and needs to be able to buy more rounds.
Would you consider creating some more performances, masterpieces or/and performance feats that both the Skald and Bard could pick (by spending feats)?
Good work SKR :)
- Raging song is no longer language-dependant.So, essentially it's like when I'm listening to this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUPDla44jfQ
Exactly! The band might as well be an adventuring party of skalds and fey bloodragers, for crying out loud.
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Can a Skald pick lingering performance (or extra performance) as a feat or will you include l lingering range song as a feat?
There will be skald equivalents of that and similar bard feats, yes (or clarification that a skald could apply such things to his raging song).
Would you consider creating some more performances, masterpieces or/and performance feats that both the Skald and Bard could pick (by spending feats)?
I've made notes about the possibility of adding other performances to the class, either by default or with feats.
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This, on the other hand, is complete news to me. I presume it's because of the two following statements "The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item" and "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.".
The second statement presumes a caster can create a magic item when he doesn't meet the prerequisites. In other words, Scribe Scroll's requirement of "spell that you know." is not absolute. Not knowing the spell increases the DC by 5, if the spell is on your spell list.
Actually, my comment was intended as "or the skald can cast the scroll spell without UMD, if it is a spell on the skald's spell list." I wasn't talking about crafting (and page 549 explicitly states that you can't create a spell trigger item unless you know the spell, although "you" might mean "the skald and a cleric, together whom have the Scribe Scroll feat and know the spell to be scribed and therefore can create the item").
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Can a Skald pick lingering performance (or extra performance) as a feat or will you include l lingering range song as a feat?There will be skald equivalents of that and similar bard feats, yes (or clarification that a skald could apply such things to his raging song).
Would you consider creating some more performances, masterpieces or/and performance feats that both the Skald and Bard could pick (by spending feats)?I've made notes about the possibility of adding other performances to the class, either by default or with feats.
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This, on the other hand, is complete news to me. I presume it's because of the two following statements "The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item" and "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.".
The second statement presumes a caster can create a magic item when he doesn't meet the prerequisites. In other words, Scribe Scroll's requirement of "spell that you know." is not absolute. Not knowing the spell increases the DC by 5, if the spell is on your spell list.Actually, my comment was intended as "or the skald can cast the scroll spell without UMD, if it is a spell on the skald's spell list." I wasn't talking about crafting (and page 549 explicitly states that you can't create a spell trigger item unless you know the spell, although "you" might mean "the skald and a cleric, together whom have the Scribe Scroll feat and know the spell to be scribed and therefore can create the item").
I have a cool question. Say I have a Scroll of Raise Dead. Could I use a usage of Spell Kenning so I don't have to make the UMD check? If not, could we possibly work that in?
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Honestly, I've thought about it. It would have to be something like "Alternatively, the skald can spend one use of spell kenning to treat a cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell as if it were on his spell list for [time]." Perhaps with additional text pointing out "that lets you use spell completion or spell trigger items with that spell."
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Honestly, I've thought about it. It would have to be something like "Alternatively, the skald can spend one use of spell kenning to treat a cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell as if it were on his spell list for [time]." Perhaps with additional text pointing out "that lets you use spell completion or spell trigger items with that spell."
Why not right? If only not because of word count =P
I think that has a lot of versatile potential. I think I would expand it to include being able to scribe the scroll as well, but perhaps that would be too good heh.
Why not right? If only not because of word count =P
:)
I'm pretty sure Paizo isn't too worried about word count....
It's been specifically cited as the reason classes weren't going to be given custom spell lists along with the fact that later books hardly update the later custom spell lists.
It's been specifically cited as the reason classes weren't going to be given custom spell lists along with the fact that later books hardly update the later custom spell lists.
No, it was stated that it's very cumbersome when a new book comes out and all of the Level entries wrap to an extra line because you have to list alchemist, antipaladin, bard, bloodrager, cleric, druid, hunter, magus, oracle, paladin, ranger, sorcerer/wizard, summoner, witch, and so on...
Of course, that hasn't stopped us from deciding to give the bloodrager its own spell list, so if the other classes merit it, it'll happen.
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It's been specifically cited as the reason classes weren't going to be given custom spell lists along with the fact that later books hardly update the later custom spell lists.No, it was stated that it's very cumbersome when a new book comes out and all of the Level entries wrap to an extra line because you have to list alchemist, antipaladin, bard, bloodrager, cleric, druid, hunter, magus, oracle, paladin, ranger, sorcerer/wizard, summoner, witch, and so on...
Of course, that hasn't stopped us from deciding to give the bloodrager its own spell list, so if the other classes merit it, it'll happen.
Hrm. I was under the impression that there was a limited amount of space in the book.
I don't think the Bloodrager getting it's own Spell List worked as intended.
I think it works well with the new hybrid classes that do have custom lists, but state (for example) "all the Druid spells at each spell level PLUS these other spells at these spell levels". They will automically inherit new spells added to the "parent" Spell List in the future, but it will not be a shock for other individual new spells to mention the new hybrid class explicitly... There will just be fewer cases where it's necessary to do that, since they can rely on inheriting from the "parent" list. Those types of spells probably will tend to appear on just a few "partial caster" spell lists anyways (not on core caster lists, like Inquisitor spells, etc), so it won't need to be all the caster classes running over multiple lines.
I think it works well with the new hybrid classes that do have custom lists, but state "all the X(Class) spells of this level PLUS these other spells". They will automically inherit new spells added to the "parent" Spell List in the future, but it will not be a shock for other individual new spells to mention the new hybrid class explicitly... There will just be fewer cases where it's necessary to do that, since they can rely on inheriting from the "parent" list. Those types of spells probably will tend to appear on just a few "partial caster" spell lists anyways, so it won't need to be all the caster classes running over multiple lines.
That makes balance kinda wonky however. You have to stop and think, "But how does this effect the folks who are leeching off the Wizard list? Do they benefit more from it? Less?"
Well OK, but that's what they're doing already, either as I described, or with the classes that JUST use a "chopped off" spell list of a full caster WITHOUT any special added spells (although those can always be added in the future, just as there are even Wizard or Sorceror specific spells).
The thing is, Paizo's already printed alot of classes with 100% custom lists, and I routinely see spells that seem 110% appropriate to those lists but which aren't added to their spell lists. I'd be thrilled if Paizo Editing could get new spells typed for ALL spell lists better than they have, but since that hasn't changed so far, I'd rather adapt new classes to the actual realistic context they will "live" in.
If an "inherited" spell ends up being weaker for the new class than the "core" classes it's explicitly designed for, then people probably just won't use it very much, but it doesn't hurt anybody to have it on the list. If players do find use in it: good for them. Inheriting "hand me down" spells from higher tier spellcasters (at same spell level) is very unlikely to be MORE powerful for the lesser tier caster who get it at later class levels and with more slot limitations.
Spells where "early entry" are desired will tend to need explicit mention of the new hybrid class (with the lower spell level), but automatically inheriting the spells that don't need that treatment keeps the cases where that is needed to a minimum... And for martial-caster spells like for Ranger/Inquisitors, there will often not be any full caster typings to clog the stat-block, so those will be convenient to mention the new classes explicitly (without running over to the next line).
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While under the effects of raging song, allies cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentrationDoes that include the Skald using a free action to maintain Raging Song?
FYI, there's an error in the second playtest, the skald isn't subject to any of the "while under the effects of skald rage" restrictions (it was in playtest 1, but accidentally ommitted from playtest 2).
I think Skald is pretty well off in terms of
-Spells
-AC
-Damage
-Rage song feature
-skills
These are solid. Overall it succeeds at a lot of things that I want to see a supportive front liner do. My vision of a Skald is a dude fighting in the front, cleaving his enemies, and rousing his companions to greater bloodlust whilst doing so.
I currently view these as problems
-too few "songs", maybe add some utility ones?
-Rage song is short, feats would be acceptable to help with this. Something cool, but not overpowering is letting the Skald not consume a rage round when he kills/incapacitates a foe
-Class wants to melee, but is kind of brittle. Maybe give Toughness as a bonus feat at level 2-3? That or up the hit die to D10 while keeping BAB at 3/4.
Really loving this class. When the concepts were released I was most excited for Warpriest and Skald. Glad to see them both moving in great directions!
There are times where I feel the skald and the hunter were made backwards. The skald, being all rage-y and DR and clearly more focused on fighting than casting...is a spontaneous caster with a d8 hit die, and the hunter, who would benefit hugely from being able to burn lots of support spells in combat, is a prepared caster.
I think the skald could easily have been a prepared caster, since most of their spellcasting will likely take place outside of combat, except for healing. Also d10 hit die.
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It's been specifically cited as the reason classes weren't going to be given custom spell lists along with the fact that later books hardly update the later custom spell lists.No, it was stated that it's very cumbersome when a new book comes out and all of the Level entries wrap to an extra line because you have to list alchemist, antipaladin, bard, bloodrager, cleric, druid, hunter, magus, oracle, paladin, ranger, sorcerer/wizard, summoner, witch, and so on...
Of course, that hasn't stopped us from deciding to give the bloodrager its own spell list, so if the other classes merit it, it'll happen.
I know we're talking Skalds, but I just want to say I am DELIGHTED to hear that Bloodragers are getting their own spell list. Unique lists, and unique spells, help the caster classes feel more independent.
Personally I'm hoping the Bloodrager (and maybe the Skald too?) get a spell that lets them hit everybody in a cone with one mighty swing of their weapon, sort of like in anime when the guy swings his massive sword and hits the enemy 30 feet away with the shockwave, and the ground between them gets torn up along with it. The Breaker barbarian archetype kind of already gets to do that as a rage power, but only to the ground itself.
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It's been specifically cited as the reason classes weren't going to be given custom spell lists along with the fact that later books hardly update the later custom spell lists.No, it was stated that it's very cumbersome when a new book comes out and all of the Level entries wrap to an extra line because you have to list alchemist, antipaladin, bard, bloodrager, cleric, druid, hunter, magus, oracle, paladin, ranger, sorcerer/wizard, summoner, witch, and so on...
Of course, that hasn't stopped us from deciding to give the bloodrager its own spell list, so if the other classes merit it, it'll happen.
Maybe just shorten each class name to three letters in future products BRD WIZ etc and have a legend at the beginning for the thick skulled.
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I just had what might be an insane/stupid idea.
What if The Skald had an ability (Either base Skald or Archetype) that allowed it to share Teamwork Feats by use of their Raging Song?
For example, a Skald with said ability could say expend an additional round of Raging Song to grant an ally the benefits of (And count as having) a Teamwork Feat that the Skald or another ally under the raging song has.
Mostly I just love the idea of a Hunter's pet, already enraged, granting Teamwork feats to the party.
I dunno if this is even slightly workable, but it seemed like fun. :D