paizo.com Recent Posts in Revised Skald Discussionpaizo.com Recent Posts in Revised Skald Discussion2013-12-10T16:17:19Z2013-12-10T16:17:19ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionSean K Reynolds (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1962013-12-18T19:51:30Z2013-12-18T19:51:30Z<p>Oops, this thread was supposed to be locked when the playtest closed. Fixed!</p>Oops, this thread was supposed to be locked when the playtest closed. Fixed!Sean K Reynolds (Contributor)2013-12-18T19:51:30ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald Discussiondanielchttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1952013-12-18T18:31:50Z2013-12-18T18:31:50Z<p>Thank you Sean for the final update post. :-)</p>Thank you Sean for the final update post. :-)danielc2013-12-18T18:31:50ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionPinstripedbarbarian (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1942013-12-18T08:45:56Z2013-12-18T08:45:56Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sean K Reynolds wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Here's a heads-up on some skald changes I'll be implementing:</p>
<p>• Adding more rage powers keyed to skald abilities.</p>
<p>• Address whether you can share rage powers that have other rage powers as prereqs (have to discuss this one a bit).</p>
<p>• Whether to use the skald's ability score for shared rage powers, or the recipient's (leaning toward the skald's).</p>
<p>• Possibly adding more performance rounds per day.</p>
<p>• Giving the skald at least one additional kind of performance.</p>
<p>• Improve the capstone.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>All of these seem very good choices. Skald-focused rage powers will be interesting, as will an improved capstone. I didn't really explore the prereq rage power thing in my playing with the skald, but I wonder how the use-activation-limitation would affect this. More performances and more rounds per day would definitely help the versatility of the class without outright overpowering it.
<p>All in all, I look forward to these changes! Seems pretty awesome.</p>Sean K Reynolds wrote:Here's a heads-up on some skald changes I'll be implementing:
* Adding more rage powers keyed to skald abilities.
* Address whether you can share rage powers that have other rage powers as prereqs (have to discuss this one a bit).
* Whether to use the skald's ability score for shared rage powers, or the recipient's (leaning toward the skald's).
* Possibly adding more performance rounds per day.
* Giving the skald at least one additional kind of performance.
*...Pinstripedbarbarian (Contributor)2013-12-18T08:45:56ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionZark (alias of TomJohn)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1932013-12-18T06:06:24Z2013-12-18T06:06:24Z<p>The class is looking better SKR, but it still got some issues. Giving it more rage powers, at least one additional kind of performance and some more rounds might fix that although it is still MAD. </p>
<p>I’m looking forward to the new book :)</p>The class is looking better SKR, but it still got some issues. Giving it more rage powers, at least one additional kind of performance and some more rounds might fix that although it is still MAD.
I’m looking forward to the new book :)Zark (alias of TomJohn)2013-12-18T06:06:24ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionSean K Reynolds (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1922014-05-08T15:19:09Z2013-12-17T23:57:53Z<p>Here's a heads-up on some skald changes I'll be implementing:</p>
<p>• Adding more rage powers keyed to skald abilities.</p>
<p>• Address whether you can share rage powers that have other rage powers as prereqs (have to discuss this one a bit).</p>
<p>• Whether to use the skald's ability score for shared rage powers, or the recipient's (leaning toward the skald's).</p>
<p>• Possibly adding more performance rounds per day.</p>
<p>• Giving the skald at least one additional kind of performance.</p>
<p>• Improve the capstone.</p>Here's a heads-up on some skald changes I'll be implementing:
* Adding more rage powers keyed to skald abilities.
* Address whether you can share rage powers that have other rage powers as prereqs (have to discuss this one a bit).
* Whether to use the skald's ability score for shared rage powers, or the recipient's (leaning toward the skald's).
* Possibly adding more performance rounds per day.
* Giving the skald at least one additional kind of performance.
* Improve the capstone.Sean K Reynolds (Contributor)2013-12-17T23:57:53ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionSean K Reynolds (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1912013-12-17T23:48:23Z2013-12-17T23:48:23Z<p>Also, please remember to update your survey responses for this and the other ACG classes now that the playtest period is coming to a close: <a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/advancedClassGuide/survey" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">survey link</a>.</p>
<p>In a little bit I'll be posting a final update on some changes I'll be implementing in this class.</p>Also, please remember to update your survey responses for this and the other ACG classes now that the playtest period is coming to a close: survey link.
In a little bit I'll be posting a final update on some changes I'll be implementing in this class.Sean K Reynolds (Contributor)2013-12-17T23:48:23ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionLord_Malkovhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1902013-12-17T20:49:06Z2013-12-17T20:49:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Trogdar wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Keeper of tales is a wicked concept!!!</p>
<p>"Listen well, friends, to this story of great deeds done, and battles won in the name of one who would see no harm done!" </blockquote><p>I guess my thought here was to really focus in on the wordsmith/poet side of the Skald theme. Spell Kenning would allow the class to cast a limited number of spells from any list that could make scrolls, but not because of an innate magical aptitude. This reflects the skald being able to simply unlock the magic of words.
<p>The rage is a pretty standard rage at -2 str/con progression, and rather than getting the more primal Totem Powers, the skald gets War Chants that can act like a bard's performance and still have that tiered format. Probably more important for me is that this skald would play really well with ANY class. The war chants would stack with other ragers in the same way that bardic performances do.</p>
<p>I would, of course, want to add more Skald specific rage powers, but this was just a set of thoughts that came quickly to mind. I realize that all of these rewrites are going to be largely ignored.</p>
<p>But this is a full BAB, non-caster, that with Spell Kenning and War Chants has some features that it can really call its own.</p>Trogdar wrote:Keeper of tales is a wicked concept!!!
"Listen well, friends, to this story of great deeds done, and battles won in the name of one who would see no harm done!"
I guess my thought here was to really focus in on the wordsmith/poet side of the Skald theme. Spell Kenning would allow the class to cast a limited number of spells from any list that could make scrolls, but not because of an innate magical aptitude. This reflects the skald being able to simply unlock the magic of...Lord_Malkov2013-12-17T20:49:06ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionTrogdarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1892013-12-17T20:39:18Z2013-12-17T20:39:18Z<p>Keeper of tales is a wicked concept!!!</p>
<p>"Listen well, friends, to this story of great deeds done, and battles won in the name of one who would see no harm done!"</p>Keeper of tales is a wicked concept!!!
"Listen well, friends, to this story of great deeds done, and battles won in the name of one who would see no harm done!"Trogdar2013-12-17T20:39:18ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionLord_Malkovhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1882015-05-17T11:42:11Z2013-12-17T20:24:10Z<p>SKALD REWRITE</p>
<p>Class Skill - Unaltered
<br />
Skill Points 4 + Int
<br />
Proficiencies - Unaltered</p>
<p>Base Attack Bonus - FULL
<br />
Saves:
<br />
Fort: Strong
<br />
Reflex: Weak
<br />
Will: Strong</p>
<p>NO SPELLS</p>
<p>CLASS FEATURE LIST
<br />
1 - Skald's Knowledge, Skald Rage (+2 str/+2 con), Bibliophile
<br />
2 - Spell Kenning 1/day
<br />
3 - Skald Rage Power
<br />
4 - Savvy Scribe
<br />
5 - Spell Kenning 2/day
<br />
6 - Skald Rage Power
<br />
7 - Lore Master 1/day
<br />
8 - Skald Rage (+4 str/+4 con), Spell Kenning 3/day
<br />
9 - DR 1/-, Skald Rage Power
<br />
10 - Keeper of Tales
<br />
11 - Spell Kenning 4/day
<br />
12 - Skald Rage Power
<br />
13 - Lore Master 1/day
<br />
14 - DR 2/-, Spell Kenning 5/day
<br />
15 - Skald Rage Power, Keeper of Tales 3/day
<br />
16 - Skald Rage (+6 str/+6 con)
<br />
17 - Spell Kenning 6/day
<br />
18 - Skald Rage Power
<br />
19 - DR 3/-, Lore Master 3/day
<br />
20 - Living Legend, Spell Kenning 7/day</p>
<p><b>Skald's Knowledge (Ex):</b> A skald adds half his class level (minimum 1) on all Knowledge skill checks, and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.</p>
<p><b>Bibliophile (Ex):</b> A skald can read magical writing as if using the Read Magic cantrip. In addition, the Skald adds half his class level on all Linguistics checks made to decipher writing.</p>
<p><b>Skald's Rage (Ex):</b> A Skald in battle can enter a trance of bloodmisted valorous fury. Skalds are often seen at the center of a battlefield singing their warchants as they slay their foes. Starting at 1st level, a Skald can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, he can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a Skald can rage per day. A Skald can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.</p>
<p>While in rage, a Skald gains a +2 morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution, as well as a +1 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, he takes a –1 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the Skald 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a Skald cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, Performance and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration including Spell Kenning.</p>
<p>A Skald can end his rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A Skald cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a Skald falls unconscious, his rage immediately ends, placing him in peril of death.</p>
<p>At 8th and 16th levels, the Skald's rage bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +2, and the Skald's bonus to Will saves increases by +1. The penalty to Armor Class does not change.</p>
<p><b>Spell Kenning (Sp):</b>
<br />
At 2nd level, the Skald can use his mastery of language to use written magic as if he were a spellcaster. Once per day, the Skald can cast any 1st level spell from a scroll or a spellbook that he can read. To cast a spell using spell kenning, the Skald must have a charisma score of at least 10+the level of the spell being cast. Casting a spell using spell kenning does not consume a scroll. Any spell cast in this way uses the Skald's class level as his caster level and the DC of any spell cast using spell kenning is equal to 10 + the level of the spell + the Skald's charisma modifier.</p>
<p>At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the level of spell that a Skald can cast using Spell Kenning increases by 1, to a maximum of 6th level spells at 16th level.</p>
<p>At 5th level and every three levels thereafter, a Skald can use Spell Kenning on additional time per day up to a maximum of 7 times per day at level 20.</p>
<p><b>Skald Rage Powers</b>
<br />
At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, the Skald gains a Skald Rage Power chosen from the Skald Rage power list. A Skald gains the benefits of rage powers only while raging, and some of these powers require the Skald to take an action first. Unless otherwise noted, a Skald cannot select an individual power more than once.</p>
<p>War Chants represent the Skald's singing and the various emboldening war cries that the Skald makes use of during a rage. When the Skald begins a rage he can select one War Chant that he has chosen as a Skald Rage Power to aid his allies. Unless otherwise noted, War Chants grant their benefits to allies within 30ft who can hear the skald, but these benefits do not extend to the Skald himself. A War Chant remains in effect until the Skald ends his rage.</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p><b>Savvy Scribe (Su)</b>
<br />
At 4th level, the Skald can copy spells from a spellbook, scroll or other written sources to be used with Spell Kenning. This ability functions like the Scribe Scroll feat, but the Skald can only copy spells that he could cast with Spell Kenning, and he automatically passes any skill checks made as part of the creation process. The skald must still pay the necessary resource costs as if he were making a scroll. Once completed, a scroll made with Savvy Scribe cannot be used as a spell completetion item like a normal scroll, but it can be used to activate the Skald's Spell Kenning ability.</p>
<p><b>Keeper of Tales (Sp)</b>
<br />
At 10th level the Skald has begun his Magnum Opus, his great epic tale. Contained with a Skald's book of tales are many stories and odes as well as various notes and useful passages. The Skald's Book of Tales can be used to store spells just like a Wizard's spell book. When using the Savvy Scribe feat, the Skald can transcribe spells into his Book of Tales instead of onto scrolls.</p>
<p>In addition, once per day, the Skald can read a passage from his work to his allies. This is a type of performance that takes 1 hour as the Skald tells an epic tale or a great mythic legend. After listening to the Skald's tale, allies within 30ft. are effected as if the Skald had cast Heroes' Feast with a caster level equal to his Skald level, except that reading from the Book of Tales does not provide sustenance.</p>SKALD REWRITE
Class Skill - Unaltered
Skill Points 4 + Int
Proficiencies - Unaltered
Base Attack Bonus - FULL
Saves:
Fort: Strong
Reflex: Weak
Will: Strong
NO SPELLS
CLASS FEATURE LIST
1 - Skald's Knowledge, Skald Rage (+2 str/+2 con), Bibliophile
2 - Spell Kenning 1/day
3 - Skald Rage Power
4 - Savvy Scribe
5 - Spell Kenning 2/day
6 - Skald Rage Power
7 - Lore Master 1/day
8 - Skald Rage (+4 str/+4 con), Spell Kenning 3/day
9 - DR 1/-, Skald Rage Power
10 - Keeper of Tales
11 - Spell...Lord_Malkov2013-12-17T20:24:10ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionShaman Bondhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1872013-12-17T19:46:29Z2013-12-17T19:46:29Z<p>Thanks. That's a really good point. It'd be nice if Raging Song explicitly counted as Rage for feats, but strict RAW might mean that this would be a two-level dip idea. (Although, 2 levels in full BAB classes isn't the end of the world for a Skald.)</p>Thanks. That's a really good point. It'd be nice if Raging Song explicitly counted as Rage for feats, but strict RAW might mean that this would be a two-level dip idea. (Although, 2 levels in full BAB classes isn't the end of the world for a Skald.)Shaman Bond2013-12-17T19:46:29ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionSean K Reynolds (Contributor)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1862014-03-20T09:33:33Z2013-12-17T19:24:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">slayer_of_gellcor wrote:</div><blockquote> Played our final test on Sunday night, here are the notes from my wife who played a level 12 Skald.</blockquote><p>Thanks for your playtest feedback. Lemme address some of your points:
<p>• Noted about many skills, few available ranks, and Stealth perhaps not fitting the theme.
<br />
• I'll clarify when you can accept raging song—you played it as intended, that you can accept when the skald starts, then get the free yes/no on your turn as well.
<br />
• There are plans for more skald-specific rage powers.</p>slayer_of_gellcor wrote:Played our final test on Sunday night, here are the notes from my wife who played a level 12 Skald.
Thanks for your playtest feedback. Lemme address some of your points: * Noted about many skills, few available ranks, and Stealth perhaps not fitting the theme.
* I'll clarify when you can accept raging song—you played it as intended, that you can accept when the skald starts, then get the free yes/no on your turn as well.
* There are plans for more skald-specific rage...Sean K Reynolds (Contributor)2013-12-17T19:24:29ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionThymus Vulgarishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1852013-12-17T19:52:17Z2013-12-17T18:19:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shaman Bond wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
With the advent of the Hunter and my renewed interest in teamwork feats, one other build I was looking at is a Half-Orc Skald with a 1 level dip in Cavalier for Tactician. Grab Amplified Rage. By level 8 (Skald 7/Cavalier 1) you can start Rage Song as a move, use Tactician as a standard, and give a +8 on Str/Con to nearby warriors, +10 Str/Con at the next level.
<br />
</blockquote><p>I like this. I like this a lot, in fact, but does Raging Song qualify you for feats with Rage class feature prerequisite?Shaman Bond wrote:With the advent of the Hunter and my renewed interest in teamwork feats, one other build I was looking at is a Half-Orc Skald with a 1 level dip in Cavalier for Tactician. Grab Amplified Rage. By level 8 (Skald 7/Cavalier 1) you can start Rage Song as a move, use Tactician as a standard, and give a +8 on Str/Con to nearby warriors, +10 Str/Con at the next level.
I like this. I like this a lot, in fact, but does Raging Song qualify you for feats with Rage class feature...Thymus Vulgaris2013-12-17T18:19:14ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionShaman Bondhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1842013-12-17T18:16:11Z2013-12-17T17:48:28Z<p>Silent Saturn: I was just about to comment on Lesser Spirit Totem myself. Since all of the Rage Song powers seem to use the Skald's level/BAB/etc, it does seem plausible that it would also use the Skald's CHA. Personally, I certainly hope so. It would certainly be a way to encourage a casting focused Skald, but, far more importantly, you'd be able to be able to play a Skald whose very war-cry could summon the glorious dead from Valhalla itself. It doesn't get more thematic than that. </p>
<p>With the advent of the Hunter and my renewed interest in teamwork feats, one other build I was looking at is a Half-Orc Skald with a 1 level dip in Cavalier for Tactician. Grab Amplified Rage. By level 8 (Skald 7/Cavalier 1) you can start Rage Song as a move, use Tactician as a standard, and give a +8 on Str/Con to nearby warriors, +10 Str/Con at the next level.</p>
<p>My own two cents on the class itself: I really love the idea of a more primitive and tribal lore keeper, and I think that Spell Kenning, Rage Song, and the Bardic Knowledges do a great job conveying that, but the DR the class gains seems both boring, and really not that useful. Am I missing something obvious? Personally, after seeing the Blood Rager's Blood Sanctuary power, I'd love to see the DR replaced by some low-powered, but thematic abilities, like Inspire Competence, some low level masterpieces or really anything.</p>Silent Saturn: I was just about to comment on Lesser Spirit Totem myself. Since all of the Rage Song powers seem to use the Skald's level/BAB/etc, it does seem plausible that it would also use the Skald's CHA. Personally, I certainly hope so. It would certainly be a way to encourage a casting focused Skald, but, far more importantly, you'd be able to be able to play a Skald whose very war-cry could summon the glorious dead from Valhalla itself. It doesn't get more thematic than that.
With...Shaman Bond2013-12-17T17:48:28ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionThymus Vulgarishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1832013-12-17T17:47:07Z2013-12-17T17:47:07Z<p>When you choose which of your rage powers to activate, can you ignore prerequisite powers and, for example, grant Eater of Magic without Superstition? The way it's written right now, it seems nothing is stopping you from doing this, and I'm just wondering if this is intentional or not. If you can, then that makes the Superstition lines much more interesting for someone like me, who wants to have my cake and receive my friendly spells too.</p>When you choose which of your rage powers to activate, can you ignore prerequisite powers and, for example, grant Eater of Magic without Superstition? The way it's written right now, it seems nothing is stopping you from doing this, and I'm just wondering if this is intentional or not. If you can, then that makes the Superstition lines much more interesting for someone like me, who wants to have my cake and receive my friendly spells too.Thymus Vulgaris2013-12-17T17:47:07ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionThymus Vulgarishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1822013-12-17T17:35:56Z2013-12-17T17:35:56Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Silent Saturn wrote:</div><blockquote> I didn't mean to imply that it's a problem with the class. Just that a Skald grabbing Superstition isn't exactly the Jackpot Combo it originally sounded like.</blockquote><p>Well then, my apologies for misunderstanding you :)
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Silent Saturn wrote:</div><blockquote>Anyone find any other rage powers that raise eyebrows when granted to a teammate? Personally, I think giving your Paladin friend the Chaos Totem or Fiend Totem rage powers could be hilarious.</blockquote><p>Greater Fiend Totem is one that you should always be careful with in a party that's not 100% evil, whether you're a barbarian or a skald, isn't it? It would suck to have to have everyone shaken and/or hurt each other each round they're adjacent, since the rage power doesn't discriminate between friend and foe.
</p>
I haven't noticed anything else to be careful about, but I did notice that Roused Anger, the Ferocious Beast line and part of the Ferocious Mount lines have been rendered redundant to the Skald. That's quite neat, I think.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Silent Saturn wrote:</div><blockquote>Would the Lesser Spirit Totem power key off the Skald's Charisma or the person using it via raging song? If it's the Skald's own Charisma, then the Spirit Totem just became quite a bit more interesting. </blockquote><p>I second this question and extend it to cover Hive Totem Toxicity and Rolling Dodge: Whose con are these powers based on, Skald or rager?Silent Saturn wrote:I didn't mean to imply that it's a problem with the class. Just that a Skald grabbing Superstition isn't exactly the Jackpot Combo it originally sounded like.
Well then, my apologies for misunderstanding you :) Silent Saturn wrote:Anyone find any other rage powers that raise eyebrows when granted to a teammate? Personally, I think giving your Paladin friend the Chaos Totem or Fiend Totem rage powers could be hilarious.
Greater Fiend Totem is one that you should always be...Thymus Vulgaris2013-12-17T17:35:56ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionUmbranushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1812013-12-17T15:57:08Z2013-12-17T15:57:08Z<p>I did not have the time/game to play a skald during the playtest but I think it could be a good base with which to build my 7th sea pc for pathfinder.</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>I like the idea of having scribe scroll. Brew potion in comparison is too limited in my opinion to feel really useful.
<br />
What I feel is missing are survival and perform wind instrument (bagpipes, war-/ signalhorns and the like.) While escape artist is nice to have I think that's less of a trademark for a skald.</p>I did not have the time/game to play a skald during the playtest but I think it could be a good base with which to build my 7th sea pc for pathfinder.
[Spoiler omitted]
I like the idea of having scribe scroll. Brew potion in comparison is too limited in my opinion to feel really useful.
What I feel is missing are survival and perform wind instrument (bagpipes, war-/ signalhorns and the like.) While escape artist is nice to have I think that's less of a trademark for a skald.Umbranus2013-12-17T15:57:08ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald Discussionslayer_of_gellcorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1802013-12-17T15:05:35Z2013-12-17T15:05:35Z<p>Played our final test on Sunday night, here are the notes from my wife who played a level 12 Skald.</p>
<p>-Martial Weapon proficiency and Medium armor are starting to make it feel like a class and less of a variant.
<br />
-Lots of skills with few skill points. Skills like Stealth are great options that dont fit the flavor of the class. Survival would fit better than Climb.
<br />
-Slightly confusing on whether her allies could benefit from Raging Song immediately, or only on their turn. We ruled they could select immediately, then opt in or out on their turn.
<br />
-Our party consisted of a Brawler, Bloodrager, and Arcanist. Only the Brawler selected the Raging Song, which still gave half the party Rage-Lite. It also felt like a progression of gaining the benefit of a second rage power at higher levels, maybe a max of 3 would be a nice boost.
<br />
-She took Extra Performance, but more uses of Rage Song would have been fair. Given that it benefitted half the party, and not the whole party, it wouldn't have been overpowered.
<br />
-More Skald-specific Rage Powers are needed. She only ever picked Superstitious, and saw no reason to choose anything else. If she had more options, I think it would lead to less cookie cutter builds.
<br />
-One thing she noticed was that there was little reason not to multiclass as an Oracle or Sorcerer, given the Skald can do any action that requires concentration, not just Skald spells. Skald/Battle Oracle is a build I think would be really neat. One thing the class could use, though are more reasons to stick with it to higher levels.
<br />
-Scribe Scroll still feels weird, but perhaps that boat has sailed.</p>Played our final test on Sunday night, here are the notes from my wife who played a level 12 Skald.
-Martial Weapon proficiency and Medium armor are starting to make it feel like a class and less of a variant.
-Lots of skills with few skill points. Skills like Stealth are great options that dont fit the flavor of the class. Survival would fit better than Climb.
-Slightly confusing on whether her allies could benefit from Raging Song immediately, or only on their turn. We ruled they could...slayer_of_gellcor2013-12-17T15:05:35ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionScavionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1792013-12-17T09:41:28Z2013-12-17T09:41:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Vrog Skyreaver wrote:</div><blockquote> now I'm not saying that inspire greatness is superb by any means, I think it's worth pointing out that it does give you bonus hit dice, which might (and I reiterate might) let you survive a spell or effect that is hit dice on target based. additionally, the bonus is +2 comp to hit and +1 comp to fort saves. not great next to inspire courage, but the bonus to fort saves could also come in handy.... </blockquote><p>Now I want a better Inspire Greatness for the Skald.
<p><b>Inspire Valor</b>: This ability functions in all ways to the Bard's Inspire Greatness except the +2 Competence Bonus to Attack Rolls instead increases your Base Attack Bonus by +2 with the full benefits that provides.</p>Vrog Skyreaver wrote:now I'm not saying that inspire greatness is superb by any means, I think it's worth pointing out that it does give you bonus hit dice, which might (and I reiterate might) let you survive a spell or effect that is hit dice on target based. additionally, the bonus is +2 comp to hit and +1 comp to fort saves. not great next to inspire courage, but the bonus to fort saves could also come in handy....
Now I want a better Inspire Greatness for the Skald. Inspire Valor: This...Scavion2013-12-17T09:41:28ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionVrog Skyreaverhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1782013-12-17T09:36:10Z2013-12-17T09:36:10Z<p>now I'm not saying that inspire greatness is superb by any means, I think it's worth pointing out that it does give you bonus hit dice, which might (and I reiterate might) let you survive a spell or effect that is hit dice on target based. additionally, the bonus is +2 comp to hit and +1 comp to fort saves. not great next to inspire courage, but the bonus to fort saves could also come in handy....</p>now I'm not saying that inspire greatness is superb by any means, I think it's worth pointing out that it does give you bonus hit dice, which might (and I reiterate might) let you survive a spell or effect that is hit dice on target based. additionally, the bonus is +2 comp to hit and +1 comp to fort saves. not great next to inspire courage, but the bonus to fort saves could also come in handy....Vrog Skyreaver2013-12-17T09:36:10ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionDarksol the Painbringerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1772013-12-17T08:45:53Z2013-12-17T08:45:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Trogdar wrote:</div><blockquote> Why are the saving throws of a bard "bound" to be high? I am not sure I follow your line of reasoning. They have low level spells with a slow spell progression AND they have fewer spells. It seems like an odd choice to focus on this part of the class when you are certainly going to be worse at it than a sorcerer or the like with the same spell choices. I would consider charisma about as important on a bard as constitution. You need it, but chasing DC's on a bard makes me think I've just chosen the wrong class. Anyway, kind of a segway. </blockquote><p>Tell me then, what else are you going to focus on? You sure as heck wouldn't go melee; you're light armor and have D8 Hit Dice; even with performances and buffs, you're gonna go down very fast.
<p>How about performances? Not too much investment for that, and not much left to gain on it; an extra 1D6 Sonic to your allies, 2 extra rounds of performance when you stop, etc. Hardly anything that any bard wouldn't take.</p>
<p>Skills? Again, not too much of an investment needed, given the class features Bards get. They already get 6+int/level. They get passive increases to knowledge checks, taking 10 on them, etc. Sure, Skald is 4+int/level, but it's not like the Bard has much to put points into given their features.</p>
<p>What's left to improve? Their spellcasting. Considering they get their unique spell list which is improvements in ways of other spell lists, it's very viable to choose, even as a supporting-level caster. If anything, it's a smarter investment than martial combat, and the investments in skills or performances are negligible, and/or absolutely necessary to select anyway.</p>
<p>A well-devoted Bard spellcaster can have up to 20 base Save DCs on their spells by 12th level (I did this for a PVP session once, was very fun); it's not horrible at all, and several creatures, even with good saves, modifiers, and item investments, have a 50/50 chance of succeeding/failing with their debuffs. That's not even the pinnacle for that level; creatures with such investments are going to be lacking in other departments, and martials are a prime example of this.</p>
<p>So is it really that bad to focus on spellcasting, when there are several other much more pointless options to take?</p>Trogdar wrote:Why are the saving throws of a bard "bound" to be high? I am not sure I follow your line of reasoning. They have low level spells with a slow spell progression AND they have fewer spells. It seems like an odd choice to focus on this part of the class when you are certainly going to be worse at it than a sorcerer or the like with the same spell choices. I would consider charisma about as important on a bard as constitution. You need it, but chasing DC's on a bard makes me think...Darksol the Painbringer2013-12-17T08:45:53ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionAtarlosthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1762013-12-17T08:27:36Z2013-12-17T08:27:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zark wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Scavion wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Zark wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Scavion wrote:</div><blockquote> A form of Inspire Greatness on the Skald would be wondrous. </blockquote>Inspire Greatness suck. Period. </blockquote><p>??
<p>The only reason its not fantastic on the Bard is because the attack bonus is competence so it doesn't stack with Inspire Courage.</p>
<p>With Shadowbard up and playing both songs at the same time, it could be pretty awesome. </blockquote><p>Wasting a 5th level spell and a standard action for something that gives +1 to attack, +1 to a save and some temp hit points?
<p>It doesn’t even buff the whole party, just two targets at level 12 and only one at level 9 (when the bard gets it). </p>
<p>+1 to attack, +1 to a saves and some temp hit points that is more or less Aid. Aid is a 2nd level cleric spell. A weak 2nd level spell.
<br />
</blockquote><p>It's worse than that. Lantern archons can cast aid as an at will SLA. If you want to give +1 attack, +1 to a save, and some temporary HP out with a fifth level spell you can get 1d4+1 of them with SMV. Sure it's a bigger action cost than shadowbard, but it's 2-5 times as much buffing and then they can fire off DR bypassing ranged touch pings for the rest of their duration. If only you were a real bard so you could also boost their attack and damage rolls.
<p>Disclaimer: SMV is a terrible choice of spell known for a bard of any stripe and you should not actually consider doing this.</p>Zark wrote:Scavion wrote: Zark wrote: Scavion wrote: A form of Inspire Greatness on the Skald would be wondrous.
Inspire Greatness suck. Period. ?? The only reason its not fantastic on the Bard is because the attack bonus is competence so it doesn't stack with Inspire Courage.
With Shadowbard up and playing both songs at the same time, it could be pretty awesome. Wasting a 5th level spell and a standard action for something that gives +1 to attack, +1 to a save and some temp hit points? It...Atarlost2013-12-17T08:27:36ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionTrogdarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1752013-12-17T07:33:50Z2013-12-17T07:33:50Z<p>Why are the saving throws of a bard "bound" to be high? I am not sure I follow your line of reasoning. They have low level spells with a slow spell progression AND they have fewer spells. It seems like an odd choice to focus on this part of the class when you are certainly going to be worse at it than a sorcerer or the like with the same spell choices. I would consider charisma about as important on a bard as constitution. You need it, but chasing DC's on a bard makes me think I've just chosen the wrong class. Anyway, kind of a segway.</p>Why are the saving throws of a bard "bound" to be high? I am not sure I follow your line of reasoning. They have low level spells with a slow spell progression AND they have fewer spells. It seems like an odd choice to focus on this part of the class when you are certainly going to be worse at it than a sorcerer or the like with the same spell choices. I would consider charisma about as important on a bard as constitution. You need it, but chasing DC's on a bard makes me think I've just...Trogdar2013-12-17T07:33:50ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionSilent Saturnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1742013-12-17T01:45:24Z2013-12-17T01:45:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Thymus Vulgaris wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Well, that is an issue for the individual skald and party to take care of, isn't it? If the party wants Superstition and Haste, they can plan for it accordingly by having the Skald wait until Haste is in place.
</p>
One single rage power requiring a little forethought doesn't constitute a problem with the class. </blockquote><p>I didn't mean to imply that it's a problem with the class. Just that a Skald grabbing Superstition isn't exactly the Jackpot Combo it originally sounded like.
<p>Anyone find any other rage powers that raise eyebrows when granted to a teammate? Personally, I think giving your Paladin friend the Chaos Totem or Fiend Totem rage powers could be hilarious.</p>
<p>Would the Lesser Spirit Totem power key off the Skald's Charisma or the person using it via raging song? If it's the Skald's own Charisma, then the Spirit Totem just became quite a bit more interesting.</p>Thymus Vulgaris wrote:Well, that is an issue for the individual skald and party to take care of, isn't it? If the party wants Superstition and Haste, they can plan for it accordingly by having the Skald wait until Haste is in place.
One single rage power requiring a little forethought doesn't constitute a problem with the class.
I didn't mean to imply that it's a problem with the class. Just that a Skald grabbing Superstition isn't exactly the Jackpot Combo it originally sounded like....Silent Saturn2013-12-17T01:45:24ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionDarksol the Painbringerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1732013-12-16T23:52:23Z2013-12-16T23:52:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Trogdar wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol wrote:</div><blockquote>The bolded part seems to contradict your earlier statement of debuffing being a poor choice due to creatures having high saving throws, and the Bard not being able to act upon their debuffs due to it. You specifically stated that debuffs aren't as appealing due to the possible failure with a saving throw (i.e. the "roll of the dice" I was referring to). Facts are, Bards should be relevant in their unique spellcasting list and performances because with the comments that people have stated about the Skald trying to fulfill a melee niche with Bard proficiencies and base stats, that's all they are good for. Anything else, you might as well play a Fighter or Cleric or whatever suits the niche better than what the Bard is trying to fill (and failing horribly).</blockquote><p>Im not sure what your trying to say here. The fact is sentence is a bit unclear. I think I was fairly explicit with regard to the saving throw issue. I don't dismiss the validity of save or suck spells, just the difficulty inherent in making them work on a class that can't focus all of their attention on the associated DC deriving ability score. A bard can't focus on charisma the way a full caster (or the magus who uses arcane accuracy) can. That, inevitably, means that later in the game the bard will struggle with save or suck spells.
<p>I hope that clears up my position. I do like debuff classes, I just prefer it when said classes are actually good at it. The witch would be a good example. </blockquote><p>And Witches are great debuffers, considering that most of their abilities are unique and aren't really based off of hitdice (Slumber, Misfortune for example). But it's not like Bards can't do it effectively either. Bards have some performances which debuff that don't require saves, some of their spells are very powerful debuffs, and while they require saves, the saving throws of the Bard are bound to be very high.
<p>It's not like the Skald can't be competent or relevant with their debuffs, even while being MAD. If anything, the statistic spectrum, as it stands for the Skald, does not change if they go with the classic Bard; Charisma is still a primary statistic, Strength is still a secondary (or even non-existant) statistic, and if the Skald/Bard would dare think to lower that, then they are only bound to be a waste of time and effort.</p>Trogdar wrote:Darksol wrote:The bolded part seems to contradict your earlier statement of debuffing being a poor choice due to creatures having high saving throws, and the Bard not being able to act upon their debuffs due to it. You specifically stated that debuffs aren't as appealing due to the possible failure with a saving throw (i.e. the "roll of the dice" I was referring to). Facts are, Bards should be relevant in their unique spellcasting list and performances because with the comments...Darksol the Painbringer2013-12-16T23:52:23ZRe: Forums: Class Discussion: Revised Skald DiscussionLord_Malkovhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfto&page=4?Revised-Skald-Discussion#1722013-12-16T23:43:11Z2013-12-16T23:43:11Z<p>As a matter of fact... I am going to go ahead and do a complete Skald Rewrite (even though this sort of thing is often ignored) because I feel like I might be able to capture the essence of the theme.</p>As a matter of fact... I am going to go ahead and do a complete Skald Rewrite (even though this sort of thing is often ignored) because I feel like I might be able to capture the essence of the theme.Lord_Malkov2013-12-16T23:43:11Z