Consider the Druid spell list. Go through, and try to pick the spells that you would want to cast every. Single. Day. Several times a day.
I disagree completely, I find it absolutely no harder to pick out a spell selection from the druid list than the wizard or clerical lists. I could roll with an elemental theme character, and even at level one I've got options like burning disarm, hydraulic push, frostbite. I could go fey/woods themed and roll entangle, cure light, Shillelagh.
Your comparison of the sorc to shaman is looking at the idea that the sorc is able to pick up some real POWER options. A spell that is almost always useful or almost always scary. That's necessary for the sorc because, realistically casting is ALL you do. You're a d6 low bab character, your saving grace is your spell list (niche builds like dragon disciple aside).
The shaman, on the other hand, gets a d8 hit die and a medium base attack bonus. You're not useless in combat, especially with the addition of some of the spirits and hexes. The fact that you don't get real POWER spells at each level is ok. You grab the spells you want for theme, flavor, or utility. If you happen to end up in a situation where absolutely none of them are helpful, well then you drop Shillelagh and wade into battle, or use a sling from the outside and use cure-light after the fight.
I'd take it the other way. I've always felt that spontaneous casting is more powerful for a d8 med bab class than it has been for an arcane caster.
Would "Animal Spirits" be limited to only animals? I was thinking small elementals would be really cool too. Wind, Earth, Fire, Water elemental spirits along with your customary nature spirits.
Improved Familiar ought to cover it.
Ooh. There's a can of worms. How does Improved Familiar interact with the ability that turns familiars into animal companions a la the nature spirit.
I see your point. Personally, I prefer combining the day-to-day flexibility of Wandering Spirit with the day-to-day flexibility of being a prepared caster. That way if I pick up the Waves Spirit for a few days out at sea, I can have a good selection of water or ice spells on hand for it to modify.
That said, if Paizo were to make a spontaneous caster off of the Druid list, the slightly expanded spell list and Wandering Spirit's flexibility would help alleviate the combined restrictions of the narrow Druid list and a spontaneous caster list of spells known.
As someone supremely interested in the class, I want to say: I strongly agree with giving the spirit choice more weight in many aspects of the class. The main reason I would want to play a Shaman is 'someone who goes out to harness the divine power of <Wind/Stone/Stars/Bones/ect>', much more often than 'someone who channels spirits generically'. This is clearly an opinion-based thing, but having a class that can really adapt its feel to these spirits is much more important than how well it matches people's ideas of "shaman-ness".
I see your point. Personally, I prefer combining the day-to-day flexibility of Wandering Spirit with the day-to-day flexibility of being a prepared caster. That way if I pick up the Waves Spirit for a few days out at sea, I can have a good selection of water or ice spells on hand for it to modify.
That said, if Paizo were to make a spontaneous caster off of the Druid list, the slightly expanded spell list and Wandering Spirit's flexibility would help alleviate the combined restrictions of the narrow Druid list and a spontaneous caster list of spells known.
I see what you're saying. Either way you've got an interesting combination of flexibility and rigidity in your casting ability. My only thought is to further differentiate the shaman from the druid by making it a spontaneous option. Right now the choice between shaman and druid really comes down to hexes vs shapeshifting. Spirit lines up pretty close with a domain or animal companion. In addition, there are druid archtypes that allow list flexibility much in the way wandering spirit does. I think going full spontaneous really gives the players a new option, not just a slight re flavoring.
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Stuff about how shaman should be a spont druid
Please no. We had this conversation on the last thread. It's a witch/oracle hybrid class with flavor that deals with spirits, not elements or plants or animals. Giving it an extremely limited selection of nature spells makes literally no sense for the class. I'm not opposed to filling that vacancy, but Shaman is not the place to do it.
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Completely unrelated to avoid double posting, I'd like to reiterate that giving Bones shaman unholy weapons at 11th level severely punishes people who want to play good-aligned bones shamans (or even shamans who occasionally take bones as wandering), since it essentially says "you can't use weapons after 11th."
Completely unrelated to avoid double posting, I'd like to reiterate that giving Bones shaman unholy weapons at 11th level severely punishes people who want to play good-aligned bones shamans (or even shamans who occasionally take bones as wandering), since it essentially says "you can't use weapons after 11th."
It might be nice to have a "Good Shamans instead treat their weapons as Ghost Touch". It's a bonus lower, but it's useful for when you go ethereal.
I would not mind a spontaneous witch list, but I believe the designers have said that is not really eat they want
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Witches are practically half arcane, quarter divine, and quarter nature in their spell lists as is. Why not use that? Or, create another customized list that mixes quarter divine, half nature, quarter arcane?
Witches are practically half arcane, quarter divine, and quarter nature in their spell lists as is. Why not use that? Or, create another customized list that mixes quarter divine, half nature, quarter arcane?
Because its a not a really good spell list, focuses on curses, built mostly for someone who is a malign witch, and the witch class itself is barely salvaged by a handful of useful hexes? Aspire to more imo.
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2. The familiar took a step toward a spirit animal concept, but I dont think that goes quite far enough. I am beginning to think that it might need to go off in a different direction.
Stuff is sounding good. Here's my suggestion for the familiar, roughly:
Spirit Bond
You have the choice of a bonding to either a spirit fetish or a spirit familiar.
Spirit fetish is (blah blah blah) it's a wizard's arcane bonded object with slightly different thematics. Pet-less option, flavorful, and works well for shamans who don't have strong animal affinities.
Spirit familiar is (blah blah blah) it's like the current version except it's treated as a fey, can be turned into a passive entity (like the tattoo familiar), is so strongly bonded it only dies at -2x Con, and it at high enough level, can be briefly ethereal.
New Feat
Guardian Spirit Familar
Prerequisites: spirit familier
Benefit: Your spirit familiar gains the base statistics of an animal companion, including ability scores, attacks, and the other line items listed in AC. It hit points are now equal to yours, rather than half.
Would "Animal Spirits" be limited to only animals? I was thinking small elementals would be really cool too. Wind, Earth, Fire, Water elemental spirits along with your customary nature spirits.Improved Familiar ought to cover it.
Ooh. There's a can of worms. How does Improved Familiar interact with the ability that turns familiars into animal companions a la the nature spirit.
Congratulations! Your fire elemental evolved into a fire rabbit!
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Because its a not a really good spell list, focuses on curses, built mostly for someone who is a malign witch, and the witch class itself is barely salvaged by a handful of useful hexes? Aspire to more imo.
I don't agree. There are a ton of options from each category. It would only be composed of curses if that's what you picked.
I'll respond to your dig on the witch class by just saying that's it's amazing at what it does. Barely salvaged is overlooking a lot of power and utility in the class.
I'll respond to your dig on the witch class by just saying that's it's amazing at what it does. Barely salvaged is overlooking a lot of power and utility in the class.
Oh really? Because everyone wants amazing hexes like swamp hag and child scent?
after some rest, I gave some more thought into the idea of a "shared body" idea for shaman. then, cause I was slightly bored at home, I wrote down some ideas for a shaman class. as it's a decent amount of text, i'll stick it in a spoiler field. with that said, here goes:
bab fort ref will ability
1 0 0 0 2 Spirit, Spirit magic I, Totem
2 1 0 0 3 Spirit Gift
3 2 1 1 3 Spirit Magic II
4 3 1 1 4 Spirit Gift
5 3 1 1 4 Totem
6 4 2 2 5 Spirit Gift, Spirit Magic III
7 5 2 2 5 -
8 6 2 2 6 Spirit Gift
9 6 3 3 6 Spirit Magic IV
10 7 3 3 7 Totem, Greater Spirit Gift
11 8 3 3 7 -
12 9 4 4 8 Spirit Gift, Spirit Magic V
13 9 4 4 8 -
14 10 4 4 9 Spirit Gift
15 11 5 5 9 Totem, Spirit Magic VI
16 12 5 5 10 Spirit Gift
17 12 5 5 10 -
18 13 6 6 11 Spirit Gift, Spirit Magic VII
19 14 6 6 11 -
20 15 6 6 12 Spirit Gift, Enlightenment
Class Features:
Spirit (ex): at first level, each shaman chooses to share his body with a spirit that represents the universal theme that he has chosen to dedicate his life to. in exchange for allowing the spirit to experience the world in a different manner and have more permanent access to the world, the spirit grants the shaman a variety of abilities that can be used to foster their cause. these abilities manifest themselves as totem abilities, Spirit Magic, and Spirit Gifts (See Below).
while the shaman has access to some abilities that are universal in nature, no shaman may select more universal abilities than abilities that are specific to his theme. Each spirit listed below grants an ability (called a totem) that is a permanent ability that reflects the nature of the univeral theme that the shaman has dedicated himself to. over time, this ability either improves or expands to cover more abilities, until reaching Enlightenment at 20th level.
Spirit Magic (sp): the shaman gains the ability to draw upon a small pool of spell-like abilities that grows over time. The shaman can use these spell-likes (sp) a total number of times per day equal to their CHA modifier. while the number of uses per day do not increase, the shaman does gain access to a ever increasing list of abilities. at first level, the shaman has the ability to use one (sp), chosen from either the list granted to spirit, or a list of abilities that are universal in nature. as with all abilities, the shaman may never have more universal (sp) than it has specific to it's theme.
each time the shaman gains this ability, he may choose to change one of his previously selected (sp) from one that he currently gains access to, although he may decide to keep the abilities he already has.
Spirit Gift (varies): each shaman gains the favor of minor spirits which also serve the various themes. beginning at 2nd level, the shaman may choose from a list of abilities that represent these favors, chosen from either universal concepts or abilities specific to their pledged spirit. as with all such abilities, the shaman may have no more universal abilities than he has theme specific ones.
universal spirit magic:
I: beguiling gift, bless, bungle, cause fear, command, compel hostility, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, endure elements, featherfall, forbid action, forced quiet, fumbletongue, hex ward, hypnotism, Identify, ill omen, interrogation, murderous command, negative reaction, shield of faith, Summon Monster I, unseen servant.
II: aid, alter self, lesser animate dead, augury, blindness/deafness, calm emotions, compassionate ally, enthrall, false life, feast of ashes, find traps, gentle repose, ghostbane dirge, ghostly disguise, haunting mists, hold person, perceive cues, pilfering hand, protective penumbra, qualm, lesser restoration, scare, see invisibility, shatter, share memory, spectral hand, spiritual weapon, summon monster II, unnatural lust, zone of truth.
III: arcane sight, archon's aura, bestow curse, chain of perdition, clairaudience/clairvoyance, countless eyes, dispel magic, guiding star, helping hand, heroism, invisibility purge, locate object, prayer, rage, reckless infatuation, sands of time, seek thoughts, speak with dead, strangling hair, summon monster III, tongues, unadulterated loathing, vision of hell, witness, wrathful mantle.
IV: air walk, aura of doom, blessing of fervor, deathward, debilitating portent, dimensional anchor, discern lies, dismissal, divination, freedom of movement, good hope, hold monster, magic jar, lesser planar binding, restoration, scrying, sending, sleepwalk, spite, summon monster IV, terrible remorse,
V: lesser astral projection, baleful polymorph, banish seeming, breath of life, break enchantment, contact other plane, curse of disgust, greater command, commune, major curse, dominate person, greater forbid action, mass ghostbane dirge, hold monster, mark of justice, mind fog, plane shift, posess object, prying eyes, raise dead, scrying, serenity, smug narcissism, spell resistance, summon monster V, communal tongues, true seeing.
VI: age resistance, analyze dweomer, animate objects, antilife shell, banishment, cloak of dreams, greater dispel magic, eyebite, find the path, forbiddance, geas/quest, greater heroism, heroe's feast, joyful rapture, legend lore, planar ally, summon monster VI, undeath to death, unwilling shield, vengeful outrage, word of recall.
battlefield clarity (battle oracle), resiliency (battle oracle), bleeding wounds (bones oracle), near death (bones oracle), lure of heavens (heavens oracle), spray of shooting stars (heavens oracle), focused trance (lore oracle), think on it (lore oracle), natural divination (nature oracle), transcend bond (nature oracle), punitive transformation (waves oracle), vortex spells (wind oracle), Cauldron (hex), charm (hex), disguise (hex), healing (hex), ward (hex), clobbering strike (stone oracle).
life sense (life oracle), life link (life oracle), major healing (major hex), retribution (major hex), vision (major hex), weather control (major hex), spirit walk (bones oracle), dweller in darkness (heavens oracle), arcane archivist (lore oracle), spontaneous symbology (adds a symbol spell to the user's spirit magic list of spells), gaseous form (wind oracle).
Battle:
bonus knowledge skills: history, engineering.
restriction: may not be true neutral.
totem: at first level, the spirit of battle grants the shaman proficiency in all martial weapons and heavy armor, as well as weapon focus in a single weapon of his choice. at 5th level, his focus of one weapon improves: when wielding the weapon he took weapon focus in at 1st level, his base attack from shaman levels improves to be equal to his levels in the shaman class. this ability does not improve the base attack bonus of levels in other classes the shaman might have, only his levels of shaman. at 10th level, the shaman now counts as being a fighter of his level for purpose of qualifying for feats. additionally, he may immediately retrain any feats his wishes in order to meet these new guidelines. at 15th level, the shaman gains the ability similar to the paladin's smite evil, except that it is keyed off of one of the shaman's opposition alignments. he may use this ability once a day.
enlightenment: the shaman gains the ability to make any number of attacks of opportunity a round, his charisma bonus to all saves, and when he rolls initiative, he may immediately take a move action towards the nearest enemy that he can see. he may draw a weapon as part of this movement.
spirit magic:
I: divine favor; II: weapon of awe; III: deadly juggernaut; IV: divine power; V: righteous might; VI: blade barrier
spirit gifts:
ancestral weapon (ancestor oracle), battlecry (battle oracle), maneuver master (battle oracle), war sight (battle oracle), flight (hex), fortune (hex), ward (hex).
greater spirit gifts:
spirit of the warrior (ancestor oracle), storm of souls (ancestor oracle), iron skin (metal oracle), retribution (major hex), agony (major hex).
about the bonus knowledge skills: I didn't put it in there, but I thought that it would be a neat idea of the class itself didn't get any knowledge skills, but the spirit you've merged with is giving you knowledge (and thus knowledge skills). also, keep in mind that this is just an idea that I whipped up in about an hour, so be kind =)
about the bonus knowledge skills: I didn't put it in there, but I thought that it would be a neat idea of the class itself didn't get any knowledge skills, but the spirit you've merged with is giving you knowledge (and thus knowledge skills). also, keep in mind that this is just an idea that I whipped up in about an hour, so be kind =)
The class should, at the very least, have Knowledge (Religion). Everything past that can be assigned by spirits, but all incarnations of the Shaman should know their religious rites.
One thing that would be cool is if the spirits you took on had abilities that made them better at dealing with the type of creature or environment that that spirit is associated with, and pass some of those bonuses on to the rest of the party as well.
I can easily see the shaman creating special ungents to apply to their party or their weapons to deal with invisible spirits or incorporeal foes our give them resistances. That way the mechanics would provide a good reason for the shaman to bond with a spirit that makes sense in the area they are in with their wandering spirit.
It would be awesome if the elemental shamans got elementals that scaled like an animal companion, like the stonelord's elemental. Other shamans could also get flavorful companions like a permanent spiritual ally for the ancestor shaman, or something like the shadow dancers shadow for a dark tapestry shaman (now that would make a great malevolent spirit).
In unearthed arcana there was a hexblade alternate class feature that turned their familiar into an intangible curse creature. That could be fun for this class.
In unearthed arcana there was a hexblade alternate class feature that turned their familiar into an intangible curse creature. That could be fun for this class.
PHB2 I thought. Someone brought it up earlier.
Completely unrelated to avoid double posting, I'd like to reiterate that giving Bones shaman unholy weapons at 11th level severely punishes people who want to play good-aligned bones shamans (or even shamans who occasionally take bones as wandering), since it essentially says "you can't use weapons after 11th."
But but but, good-aligned necromancers are verboten!
About the witch spell list: It's not as good as the wizard or cleric lists, true, but there's plenty of variety and a number of very potent spells. A witch without hexes would be an extremely potent character and potentially campaign-breaking character, if not up to snuff when compared to the other full casters.
Completely unrelated to avoid double posting, I'd like to reiterate that giving Bones shaman unholy weapons at 11th level severely punishes people who want to play good-aligned bones shamans (or even shamans who occasionally take bones as wandering), since it essentially says "you can't use weapons after 11th."It might be nice to have a "Good Shamans instead treat their weapons as Ghost Touch". It's a bonus lower, but it's useful for when you go ethereal.
Every weapon is already Ghost Touch. It says so in the listing for the Shedding Form.
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after some rest, I gave some more thought into the idea of a "shared body" idea for shaman. then, cause I was slightly bored at home, I wrote down some ideas for a shaman class. as it's a decent amount of text, i'll stick it in a spoiler field. with that said, here goes:
** spoiler omitted **...
While I have never put much thought into a melee version of the Shaman, I like a lot of what you have done here.
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As to the people above still wanting the druid list, you do realize that there are spirits that can still give you that theme right? Why paint all shamans into that corner?
In a previous thread I said that I built a level 5 shaman as an NPC and that I couldn't find half the spells I prepped when he switched from the cleric to the druid list. I was mistaken in my numbers, there wasn't a single spell I had prepped that could be found on the druid list.
While this is my favorite class from this book, I lost all interest in playing it when it changed to just the plain druid list. When we got the augments, I built one again to play as a PC. I only write down the spells I think I might end up prepping on my divine characters' sheets, and for my new shaman the majority of my spells on the sheet are from that tiny augmented list, not the druid list. I simply don't care about most druid spells. I am not saying that people who do are wrong, but I am saying that people that would choose to force that flavor on someone needlessly are wrong. This class can be so much better than that.
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2. The familiar took a step toward a spirit animal concept, but I dont think that goes quite far enough. I am beginning to think that it might need to go off in a different direction.
Stuff is sounding good. Here's my suggestion for the familiar, roughly:
Spirit Bond
You have the choice of a bonding to either a spirit fetish or a spirit familiar.
Spirit fetish is (blah blah blah) it's a wizard's arcane bonded object with slightly different thematics. Pet-less option, flavorful, and works well for shamans who don't have strong animal affinities.
Spirit familiar is (blah blah blah) it's like the current version except it's treated as a fey, can be turned into a passive entity (like the tattoo familiar), is so strongly bonded it only dies at -2x Con, and it at high enough level, can be briefly ethereal.New Feat
Guardian Spirit Familar
Prerequisites: spirit familier
Benefit: Your spirit familiar gains the base statistics of an animal companion, including ability scores, attacks, and the other line items listed in AC. It hit points are now equal to yours, rather than half.
A feat seems a bit crazy, but it would be awesome if that was merely a feature of the class to begin with. IMO this should be treated like an lesser Eidolon/animal companion given the fact that when the thing is dead, you can't do a thing until you perform a ritual of doom. A completely separate listing of choices from the familiar lists or even something like the Necrocraft would go a long ways towards flavor-into-mechanics.
Maybe the class could be made more witchy by making the patron mechanic present/stronger in it.
The spirits the shaman calls on are his patrons...so I don't see a need to add an additional element...although adjusting the descriptive text to more fully get that point across would be good.
@virgil I think I see what you mean about k: religion. it would definitely make sense, so I would add it to the class list.
While I have never put much thought into a melee version of the Shaman, I like a lot of what you have done here.
I was just using battle as an example because it's the first oracle listed in the APG and my brain kept going back to it when I was thinking about the class. also I find some of battle oracle (and by extension, battle shaman) abilities to be a bit more life oracle-ish than what I think battle shaman should be, which is more along the lines of a guy who fights. I definitely would design more "caster" focused shaman, like (say) lore, who would get to add spells via arcane archivist, as well as proper healers via life (and maybe some wackiness via bones).
While I have never put much thought into a melee version of the Shaman, I like a lot of what you have done here.
3/4 BAB classes tend to do melee, and some do pretty well. When it had the cleric list it could do pretty darn well in melee too!
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Oh really? Because everyone wants amazing hexes like swamp hag and child scent?
Amazing Hexes:
SlumberIce Tomb
Great Hexes:
Cackle
Ill Omen
Prehensile Hair
Scar
Cook People
Witch's Charge
Solid/Utility Hexes:
Beast of Ill Omen (free action 1st level is still free action, and its always heightened)
Charm
Disguise
Flight
Fortune
Misfortune
Ward
Agony (admittedly superfluous with Ice Tomb)
Animal Skin
Retribution
Speak In Dreams
Weather Control
That's more than enough to fill the 9 non-major slots with something decent. Yes there are bad options, but this is Pathfinder. Bad options exist.
While I have never put much thought into a melee version of the Shaman, I like a lot of what you have done here.3/4 BAB classes tend to do melee, and some do pretty well. When it had the cleric list it could do pretty darn well in melee too!
Oh I am certain that it could be built into a melee, several people have spoken earlier about CoDoSzilla, though not with that word exactly, and I could believe it. I just meant that I personally don't like to play melee characters so I haven't devoted a lot of brainpower that direction.
Mainly I just saw that Vrog put some time into a thoughtful post and thought that it worth mentioning that it was appreciated, even if I didn't want to get into the specifics due to a decent portion of it being focused around an option I probably wouldn't be exploring.
My list would look much different.
Oh really? Because everyone wants amazing hexes like swamp hag and child scent?That's more than enough to fill the 9 non-major slots with something decent. Yes there are bad options, but this is Pathfinder. Bad options exist.
Now if only there was a way to fix this... Wait a minute. This is supposed to be about how to fix the Shaman's terrible choices so about that...
So what has been done right in this class mechanically? If you have a base on what is done right, you can build off of it as a standard so what is the one "spirit" that should be the standard of comparison?
My list would look much different.
Dunno what you're looking for in hexes, then. They're not supposed to be as powerful as spells, they're class features. They're very good for that.
Oh really? Because everyone wants amazing hexes like swamp hag and child scent?That's more than enough to fill the 9 non-major slots with something decent. Yes there are bad options, but this is Pathfinder. Bad options exist.Now if only there was a way to fix this... Wait a minute. This is supposed to be about how to fix the Shaman's terrible choices so about that...
So what has been done right in this class mechanically? If you have a base on what is done right, you can build off of it as a standard so what is the one "spirit" that should be the standard of comparison?
I am a big fan of the Lore and Heavens and would be excited to play either as a main(though I will agree that there are some anti-synergies needlessly built into lore and if you can wait it out, it would work better as a wanderer than a main). But if I were going to use a comparison mark, I would probably start there, both have some solid options that look fun. I also enjoy the bones and fire, I could see those being somewhat regular wanderers for me.
I like Heavens for the Leap Hex and perhaps the Twilight Void? Hex (haven't used it yet) and the rest to provide me flexibility to move into spells/fluff that I would like access to.
My list would look much different.Dunno what you're looking for in hexes, then. They're not supposed to be as powerful as spells, they're class features. They're very good for that.
As powerful as first level spells and inexpensive magic items, wooh? A lot of which come without scaling too, so they're stuck being as powerful as a low level spell, isn't that great!? Oh... no, no its not. This handbook always had an okay look at them I thought, though its a bit dated.
That's actually something I don't care for about some shaman abilities. Abilities like Hampering Hex are just awful. It needs more oomph! Scaling can cover it, or give it something to make it special. Flat numbers tend to be boring. Another one that bothers me is Bone Lock, the scaling is awkward. At first level its cool to stop someone for like... a round I guess, then its worse than what arcane casters can do when they actually get slow, until... Always? Oh gosh, I could go through these and rate them. Some are pretty meh. Some are also vague, such as Guiding Star, wish that was more clear, but those are copy pasta if I remember correctly.
Oh really? Because everyone wants amazing hexes like swamp hag and child scent?That's more than enough to fill the 9 non-major slots with something decent. Yes there are bad options, but this is Pathfinder. Bad options exist.Now if only there was a way to fix this... Wait a minute. This is supposed to be about how to fix the Shaman's terrible choices so about that...
So what has been done right in this class mechanically? If you have a base on what is done right, you can build off of it as a standard so what is the one "spirit" that should be the standard of comparison?
I am a big fan of the Lore and Heavens and would be excited to play either as a main(though I will agree that there are some anti-synergies needlessly built into lore and if you can wait it out, it would work better as a wanderer than a main). But if I were going to use a comparison mark, I would probably start there, both have some solid options that look fun. I also enjoy the bones and fire, I could see those being somewhat regular wanderers for me.
I like Heavens for the Leap Hex and perhaps the Twilight Void? Hex (haven't used it yet) and the rest to provide me flexibility to move into spells/fluff that I would like access to.
Heavens is flat out the business. I firmly believe that Starburn having a limited number of uses per day is pretty terrible given its range, save, damage type and amount, and 1d4 round limitation. Heaven's Leap needs a leveled action economy change. It is the most flavorful bang for your buck out of the Shaman. Familiar change is thematic but doesn't bring what some of the others do to the table, but that is the trade off for the bonus spell knowledge let alone rocking hexes.
So what has been done right in this class mechanically? If you have a base on what is done right, you can build off of it as a standard so what is the one "spirit" that should be the standard of comparison?
To date...I don't actually like any of the "spirits".
They are just copies of Oracle revelations, and don't really carry the kind of feel I would look for in a shaman.As far as class mechanics on a whole...the wandering spirit ability is probably the only thing I think was done "right"....
I would rather see the shaman gain only wandering spirits, with a greater number of spirits they can ally with (at the same time) scaling as they level.
Or set "chosen" spirits, that remain fixed once chosen, and that again increase in number as they level up.
Spell list is going to take some time I think, although I'm currently thinking the witch spell list, fleshed out by spirit spells to add versatility and theme based options is the way to go.
I could go either 1/2 or 3/4 in regards to BA....either would work for me. But I'm starting to think a 1/2 BA, Charisma based, prepared/divine caster, is certainly a new nich :)
I'm still almost rabidly anti using the Druid spell list, and the familiar/spirit ally.
Question regarding the "CODzilla" issue...as it's never been a problem at our table.
If the Shaman had the 1/2 BA progression, would that minimize the problem ?
I don't see a Shaman as being a melee brute...it's just not what I think of, or how I would build a shaman.
Even a shaman calling on "battle spirits" should be calling up spirits to fight FOR him...not buffing him into a melee brute.
I CAN however see a shaman using summoning spells to call "spirits" to fight for him, so maybe he needs a unique summoning list ?
I can certainly see an Ulfen shaman calling up Einherji or Valkyrie to fight for him :)
Question regarding the "CODzilla" issue...as it's never been a problem at our table.
If the Shaman had the 1/2 BA progression, would that minimize the problem ?
I wouldn't give shaman 1/2 BAB unless you never want him to actually try to hit things outside of touch spells. If CoDzilla is an issue it needs to be dealt with in those classes, not the shaman.
So on this Dark Companion for the Shaman, why in the world would you even want it? Mary Sue alternate ability at its core which in the long run leaves you talking to yourself in public.
I understand the arguments to remove the companion, but giving a person who communes with spirits more reason to look schizophrenic sounds terrible.
So on this Dark Companion for the Shaman, why in the world would you even want it? Mary Sue alternate ability at its core which in the long run leaves you talking to yourself in public.
I understand the arguments to remove the companion, but giving a person who communes with spirits more reason to look schizophrenic sounds terrible.
LOL...but very much fit's the reputation of shamans ;)
It was just a though as to something that felt more in line with a shaman than a familiar.
So on this Dark Companion for the Shaman, why in the world would you even want it? Mary Sue alternate ability at its core which in the long run leaves you talking to yourself in public.
I understand the arguments to remove the companion, but giving a person who communes with spirits more reason to look schizophrenic sounds terrible.
I'm sure you would be able to choose if you can see the spirit or not
I like the concept of the dark familiar, so long as it can do more like buff, heal, damage or other things depending on the spirit
So what you want is a semi-permanent, untouchable spectral hand spell for hexes and spells, and the justification is "because I talk to spirits." So a familiar without any of of the weaknesses...
So what you want is a semi-permanent, untouchable spectral hand spell for hexes and spells, and the justification is "because I talk to spirits." So a familiar without any of of the weaknesses...So on this Dark Companion for the Shaman, why in the world would you even want it? Mary Sue alternate ability at its core which in the long run leaves you talking to yourself in public.
I understand the arguments to remove the companion, but giving a person who communes with spirits more reason to look schizophrenic sounds terrible.
I'm sure you would be able to choose if you can see the spirit or not
I like the concept of the dark familiar, so long as it can do more like buff, heal, damage or other things depending on the spirit
On the other hand, the familiar, especially for the witch, is something too precious to be used for most people.
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Question regarding the "CODzilla" issue...as it's never been a problem at our table.
If the Shaman had the 1/2 BA progression, would that minimize the problem ?
I don't see a Shaman as being a melee brute...it's just not what I think of, or how I would build a shaman.
Even a shaman calling on "battle spirits" should be calling up spirits to fight FOR him...not buffing him into a melee brute.
I CAN however see a shaman using summoning spells to call "spirits" to fight for him, so maybe he needs a unique summoning list ?
I can certainly see an Ulfen shaman calling up Einherji or Valkyrie to fight for him :)
I don't either. In all honestly, I don't expect CoDzilla to be a huge problem here, because this class is so MAD. Like I said, I haven't tried to really work that angle, but I had to really lower both my dex and con well beneath what I am used to to make a decent caster out of this (this is offset by the medium armor and D8HP). I suspect that the melee version of it would likely run into the inverse problem of not having the points to go around to fill out the mental attributes.
When ever I read the Dark Whatever people are writing about I keep thinking of Dexter and the Dark Passenger. If this idea of a Dark Spirit were pursued (I am a bit intrigued by it) what if it were the one to deliver hexes? Hexes are delivered based on a 30' fly speed of the Dark Spirit instead of within 30' of the Shaman? It may or may not take up a large space in the way an ethereal swarm would.
Hm. If something Familiar-related is still desired, howzzabout this:
The Spirit Animal become an ethereal/incorporeal ghost animal, that can't be affected by many things (and so is safer) but likewise can't affect most non-ethereal things... Perhaps make an exception for necromantic spells and hexes (which they can deliver to targets normally)? I would just limit them to normal animals in this case, or at least exclude Outsider Types (Improved Familiars) which shouldnt' have Ghosts. This kind of ties into how Rage Prophets work with spirits.
Even then the Spirit Animals are ultimately vulnerable, but perhaps parallel to Shamans gaining another Wandering Spirit, they can gain a second Spirit Animal Familiar... Tying them together sort of like how the Witch was at one point during it's Playtest, I believe? Anyways, if they eventually get multiple of these creatures (which can't really do much directly on their own, so having several of them shouldn't be overpowering), that means if one dies, then you still have others to retain your ability to prepare spells and use Spirit powers (tied to the remaining Spirit linked to the remaining Spirit Animal).
If you take the Nature Spirit Companion Animal option, it would be fully corporeal but would still serve as channel to the Nature Spontaneous List and Nature Spirit Abilities.
If you can get multiple Spirit Animals, then perhaps I would be more liberal with letting them have more presence on the Material plane, although you could have them shift in and out Ethereality and hybrid presence on Material Plane? (becoming more vulnerable but also more able to interact and effect the world, including delivering more types of spells, etc)
So if one were slain, you just lose access to one spirit until replaced, I really like that idea. I have been liking the idea of multiple spirits swarming me since this class first came out, that flavor alone made me immediately gravitate to this class.
What if choosing the battle spirit let you infuse the spirit into yourself instead of getting a companion. Thus would give you the BAB if the warrior spirit, or allow you to use your casting stat to hit since your connection too the spirit would improve your ability to hit.
I think the spell list could also use more options like Arcane Sight, Invisibility, Dispel Magic at 3rd level, Shadow Magic, Etherealness, Astral Projection and Plane Shift type stuff... Shamans should consort and deal with a range of magical and spiritual beings, and be adept and dealing with the supernatural more than just the standard Druid list allows, which is more suited to a dull life tending an old-growth forest.
I also kind of want to see more Witch spells... To the point of saying they get the whole Witch spell list?
At least it needs more individual Wizard/Witch spells, and it sounds like a plausible Feat to open up access to limited Witch Spells (of choice), either off the normal Witch list or from a Witch Patron...
Would it hurt if they were allowed to prepare the Spirit Spells in their normal slots, in additional to the Spontaneous Spirit Slot?
It's hard to say for sure if that isn't how it works currently,
the similar Sorceror Bloodline Spells feature (+Oracle) doesn't explicitly spell out that the spells are added to your spell-list either.
All in all, I think I would be fine seeing this drop to 1/2BAB, and drop Medium armor for Light only... strengthening the spell list with more wizard/witch stuff as appropriate. I don't see the Shaman as a hardy survivalist like a Druid so much as a crazy who cares less for the material world than the spiritual and is talking to spirits half the time, so is less robust.