Revised Shaman Discussion


Class Discussion

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Paizo Employee Lead Designer

This thread is for discussing the REVISED version of the Shaman. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.

Once you have had a chance to playtest the revised version, please be sure to update your survey results, which can be found HERE

Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


GIANT typo in the Wind Spirit section. Essentially from halfway through wind ward repeats itself directly after the end of spirit animal.

Otherwise though, looking good. I like quite a few of the changes made.


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So the oracle/witch is a prepared druid caster? Don't suppose we could find details on that logic somewhere could we?


Wait. I missed that part. Druid spell list? I suppose I can kind of understand it, what with shamans being a little more nature oriented, but wouldn't this be more in line with saying that this is more of a druid/oracle mixture then, with the word "hex" just being thrown in there for description?


MrSin wrote:
So the oracle/witch is a prepared druid caster? Don't suppose we could find details on that logic somewhere could we?

The spells added make things a little bit easier. Can still pull off a decent battle shaman with the Battle spirit.

Also surprised to see a decent number of arcane spells added in. Fly, overland flight, fear, wail of the banshee.. It'll make a decent casty/blasty class now too.

Shadow Lodge

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You may consider changing the Heavens Spirit Manifest ability:

Quote:

Manifest: Upon reach 20th level, the shaman becomes

the spirit of heaven. She receives a bonus on all saving
throws equal to her Charisma modifier.
She automatically
stabilizes if she is brought to below 0 hit points. She is
immune to fear effects and she automatically confirms
all critical hits that she threatens. Should she die, she is
reborn 3 days later in the form of a star child, who matures
over the course of 7 days (treat as the reincarnate spell).

The all-saving-throw bonus should use the Shaman's PRIMARY stat of Wisdom. It looks like the use of Charisma is an artifact of copy/pasting the Heavens Mystery final revelation.


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Well, the typo I saw coming has occurred. With the Nature Spirit, the Friend to Animals Hex still lists itself as "adds the all of the Summon Nature's Ally spells to her spell list." Since Summon Nature's Ally spells are already on the Druid list, that makes for redundant language. There's still the "Divine Grace for all animals within 30 feet" bit, but I wonder if there wasn't enough time to consider a revision of that hex.


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Haven't had a chance to go through it in detail...but I'm really disappointed in what I'm seeing.

Still has a familiar...
Druid spell list....raise and create undead...WTF

I guess I'll just keep using existing classes and archetypes to create shaman type characters....this one is moving farther and farther of course.


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As the class I was most excited for and wanted to re-train my druid into, I've got to say that the update doesn't feel like it hit the basic things it needed to for me:

- I appreciate the 'shaman spells' addition to the druid list. I was fine with the cleric list, but these additions make almost all the spells I really wanted still accessible.

- The 1st level spirit abilities are still horribly imbalanced. As probably the biggest 'customization point' of the class, it sucks to want to play a wind shaman and find I get a poorly scaling touch attack I'm likely to actually put to use once, maybe twice in an entire campaign to mildly better effect than hitting it a staff. It gets even worse at 4th level, when wandering spirit can't give hexes, so you wander almost entirely for these abilities. No one will feel they have the option to wander to wind, fire, ect, at level 4 or 5, it's just shooting yourself in the foot compared to Nature, Life, Battle, or Heavens.

- The hexes are similarly unbalanced. Vortex Spells requires a confirmed critical with a spell, that's insanely specific to a few spells and a rare situation after that. Wind Sight and Sparking Aura similarly feel very poor. As a Wind Shaman, I feel my options are Air Barrier and Wind Ward, which still don't feel great, and are so restrictive I don't even have enough options to fill out the 3 hexes from my spirit I'm supposed to eventually select.

There's other basic errors. The Battle Ward from the Battle Spirit still seems to have an infinite duration and number of instances, as though my shaman might as well go around warding every beggar in town and the entire local militia during his morning stroll. The Elemental Body of a Lightning/Ice elemental still have no stats, unless they're assumed to be the same as a Wind/Water elemental, which would be disappointing.

Overall, I'm not sure anything other than the spell list was even changed, and that's a real disappointment to me. Perhaps we weren't vocal enough in the last thread, since it was the closest to completion, but I'm really dissapointed in how little attention it got.


I hear ya, Lyee. To be fair though, I think most of the discussion got derailed by semantic discussions over what people's depictions of what a shaman were. Didn't help that several other classes had very big discussions on the mechanical things that really needed to be looked at. Shaman simply got a shorter stick right now.


Mother of CoDZilla.

They get access to both Divine Power and Wildshape.

Lyee, you wander for spells as well. They allow you to prepare the spirit magic spells in your slots as well.

But yeah some Spirits are pretty underpowered at low levels. But thats full casters in general.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Got it downloaded and rushed to see if any amazing changes were made to the shaman. Still disappointed, we got the druid list which is fine doesn't really change anything. We tacked on some other spells to flesh things out to keep some staple things a shaman should do, that's well and good. It just seems like none of the other concerns from the previous thread were ever answered things like.

What exactly is the role being explored by the Shaman that is not explored by existing classes or multiclass combos?
Why are they called Hexes not Revelations?
Can I take any Hex from any spirit with the Extra Hex feat?
Can I take Witch Hexes and Vice Versa with Extra Hex?
If there a reason spirits aren't a more integral/focal aspect of the class much like the animal companion is the focus of the hunter?

As it stands I don't feel the Shaman was changed enough in order to effectively perform it's role better than a multiclass Witch/Oracle. This is the only class I actually care about succeeding so the fact that it seems to keep getting sidelined and seemingly slips under the radar in regards to dev responses is a very sad thing for me.


Scavion wrote:

Mother of CoDZilla.

They get access to both Divine Power and Wildshape.

Lyee, you wander for spells as well. They allow you to prepare the spirit magic spells in your slots as well.

But yeah some Spirits are pretty underpowered at low levels. But thats full casters in general.

Wandering for spells is nice, yes, but for the situational spells you can just prepare them (you can only wander to get said spells at the same time you prepare anyway) since you have most of those spells on your list (and, as a 9th level caster, probably have five other solutions to the problem anyway).

And, harping back to how poor the air spirit feels, their first level spell is Alter Winds which is basically useless unless I'm misinterpreting it. Gust of Wind is okay as a 2nd level spell. The first of their spells I feel is really appropriate for its level is Control Winds at 5th level.


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I think some of the class's biggest problems aren't really addressed.

For one, there's still basically zero witch in this class. The word "hex" is used, but the abilities to which it refers are still oracle revelations. Otherwise, the only similarity is a familiar. I don't have a problem with this, in and of itself, but if the goal is to be a hybrid of the witch and oracle, though, the class still fails utterly at realizing that goal. To reiterate, I don't think that makes it a bad class; it's a perfectly fine oracle/druid hybrid as it is. I just think it should either officially become an oracle/druid hybrid of be changed to have some meaningful similarity to the witch.

Secondly, several of the hexes with pretty glaring issues haven't been touched. Taking arcane enlightenment as a wandering hex still basically lets a Shaman add every single sorcerer/wizard spell to her spells known. Aside from being pretty problematic on its own, this means that arcane enlightenment is strictly superior as a wandering hex than as a regular hex. Lure of the Heavens lets the Shaman fly for minutes per level after she has essentially received one free overland flight spell per day from her spirit magic; the hex's benefit is rendered obsolete by the same spirit that grants the hex before you even receive that benefit. Healer's touch is still a level 8 ability that replicates a level 0 spell with virtually no added benefit.

In general, I think it was a good move to steer the class away from the oracle, but I think the class has a lot more problems than that. Just because it's a promising class that's close to the mark in a lot of ways doesn't mean it doesn't have a ways to go, and I would have liked to see a lot more changes than were made.

Also, I assume it's just a typo, but the table still shows the Shaman receiving 5th-level spells prior to 4th-level spells.


Knifechief wrote:

I think some of the class's biggest problems aren't really addressed.

For one, there's still basically zero witch in this class. The word "hex" is used, but the abilities to which it refers are still oracle revelations. Otherwise, the only similarity is a familiar. I don't have a problem with this, in and of itself, but if the goal is to be a hybrid of the witch and oracle, though, the class still fails utterly at realizing that goal. To reiterate, I don't think that makes it a bad class; it's a perfectly fine oracle/druid hybrid as it is. I just think it should either officially become an oracle/druid hybrid of be changed to have some meaningful similarity to the witch.

I'd be happy to see it become a Druid/Oracle, too. I would hate to have anything that makes the class enjoyable to be removed to fit its 'class combination', so I'm fine with this point just being ignored by now.

Quote:


Secondly, several of the hexes with pretty glaring issues haven't been touched. Taking arcane enlightenment as a wandering hex still basically lets a Shaman add every single sorcerer/wizard spell to her spells known. Aside from being pretty problematic on its own, this means that arcane enlightenment is strictly superior as a wandering hex than as a regular hex. Lure of the Heavens lets the Shaman fly for minutes per level after she has essentially received one free overland flight spell per day from her spirit magic; the hex's benefit is rendered obsolete by the same spirit that grants the hex before you even receive that benefit. Healer's touch is still a level 8 ability that replicates a level 0 spell with virtually no added benefit.

Agreed on all those accounts. A designer needs to sit down with each spirit and tweak everything to have at least some semblance of balance. The current hexes and spirit abilities feel like a draft of what sort of things might crop up, not a cohesive list of abilities ready for release.

Quote:


In general, I think it was a good move to steer the class away from the oracle, but I think the class has a lot more problems than that. Just because it's a promising class that's close to the mark in a lot of ways doesn't mean it doesn't have a ways to go, and I would have liked to see a lot more changes than were made.

Yes. Previously, there was a little stepping on the Oracle's toes (a touch more than the Wizard steps on the Sorcerers), and the change does set it into its own niche a tad more... it just doesn't feel done.


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I think the main problem is that a lot of the "hexes" are literally just copy/pasted from Oracle revelations without any regard whatsoever for how the differences between Shaman and Oracle might affect them. Honestly, the biggest problem with the Shaman in general is that its abilities seem as though they were designed without really considering how they would interact with one another.


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I agree.

The oracle had no downside to having a 'bad revelation' because you could generally not pick that one if the others were fine. If the Shaman has a bad spirit ability, the whole spirit risks being 'bad as a main spirit' because you are stuck with that choice. Similarly, some hexes/spirit-abilities are better or worse as a wandering option, varying how good of a primary spirit they are. This really doesn't bode well with me and I think these need to be addressed.

Contributor

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Knifechief wrote:
For one, there's still basically zero witch in this class. The word "hex" is used, but the abilities to which it refers are still oracle revelations. Otherwise, the only similarity is a familiar. I don't have a problem with this, in and of itself, but if the goal is to be a hybrid of the witch and oracle, though, the class still fails utterly at realizing that goal. To reiterate, I don't think that makes it a bad class; it's a perfectly fine oracle/druid hybrid as it is. I just think it should either officially become an oracle/druid hybrid of be changed to have some meaningful similarity to the witch.

Shaman may not have the witch's mechanics, but it certainly nails the witch's theme. Witches barter with patrons. Shaman barter with spirits. The witch is definitely in this class.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The other hybrids tend to be more of a flavor AND mechanics hybrid. The issue right now is it's mechanically more like a druid/oracle as the only two mechanical witch themes here are the familiar and the revelations being called hexes. Even the spirits tend to follow the naming pattern of oracle mysteries.


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I still think the witch spell list would fit this class better than the druid one. Though honestly, as a fullcaster, perhaps it should have its own spell list?

Contributor

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Initial Thoughs:

I like this Hybrid almost as much as the investigator, but for entirely different reasons. Where the investigator felt extremely new and bold, the shaman takes existing abilities that I know and cherish and combines them in new and exciting ways.

Picking the Druid Spell List was an awesome choice; prior to this book, not enough casters utilized that spell list.

While neat, most of the Spirit Animal abilities feel pointless. Like the Battle Spirit; its not like my Familiar gets any powers that make it effective in combat, so why give it a natural armor bonus? If this was the Nature Spirit, which upgrades the familiar into an animal companion, I could understand why this choice was made.

The Life Spirit's Greater Spirit ability is atrocious; you've valued the ability to stabilize a dying creature at will as a trait. (One of the Advanced Player's Guide traits does the same thing.) A cantrip at will is not impressive, and the Life Spirit Shaman is already unimpressive because healing spells on the Druid Spell List are delayed to be several levels later than their Cleric counterparts. When the class used the Cleric Spell List, this wasn't an issue. However, you might want to look into giving the Life Spirit some way to boost the shaman's healing magic capacity back up to the Cleric Progression.

There seems to be a text-based copy/paste error in the Wind spirit animal's entry.

Overall, this class is looking really good. My biggest regret? No Spirits for the Ultimate Magic Mysteries. A Time Spirit and (especially) a Dark Tapestry Spirit would be amazing. (Hint: DARK TAPESTRY SPIRIT PLEASE.)

I like how this class isn't solely focused on Wisdom the way that other casters tend to be. Its something I like about all of the Hybrids, actually.


I'm content with the additions made to the spell list. I might ask for DM permission for one or two minor ones for flavor reasons. (Stuff like Chain of Perdition that's too obscure to be included on the list.)

I'm guessing the hexes and spirit abilities will be retuned still? I think it was said that there would be more, but I understand if that's been put off in order to get this out.

Life spirit's Greater Spirit ability is still cantrips and a bonus to a seldom-used skill.

The additional of an Occult spirit of some sort would be A+.

Thanks!

Alexander Augunas wrote:
(Hint: DARK TAPESTRY SPIRIT PLEASE.)

A thousand times yes! I would LOVE a Shaman that is communing with the dark forces in the cold reaches of space, the likes of which man was never meant to know.


Well it is nice to see some positive comments for this revision. Right now it seems to be the only positive bit here.

I find it funny that some of the comments boil down to, "get rid of the familiar cause it doesn't do anything." It's the divine focus of the Shaman here, so removing it doesn't make too much sense unless you don't like casting spells. And even if the familiar didn't make the final cut, the result would look too much like the cleric or the druid to give players a unique feel.

However, we do have to address the issues that have been brought up. The familiar feels useless to Shaman players partly because there's reference to melee touch Hexes that the class just doesn't have. Up until the spell change, the toucher status of the familiar was only good for delivering buffs/heals at some distance. Not exactly a good thing, nor has the list improved the situation that much. This helps illustrate one of a few issues with the Shaman spirits. Hexes that needed to be reworked -either due to the spell change or mechanical/contextual clunkiness- haven't been. The granted powers of a few spirits feel utterly lackluster when simple character creation choices make them obsolete. These problems exist, and it would be nice to have some clarification as to how this will be handled going forward.

For now, I am going to rework the Shaman I was going to use for a soloish playtest and see where things go.

Grand Lodge

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Problem with the Nature spirit
Friend to Animals (Su): The shaman adds all of the
summon nature’s ally spells to her spell list. She must still
prepare these spells. All animals within 30 feet of the
shaman receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to her
Charisma modifier.

Druid already gives summon natures ally - so this 'hex' is basically just a save bonus for summoned creatures. So this basically seems like a useless hex as its written. maybe this could be the rewrite (or something like it) since its a very druid heavy already.

Friend to Animals (Su): Much like a druid, a Shaman with this hex can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn't prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature's ally spell of the same level or lower. In addition, all animals within 30 feet of the shaman receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to her Charisma modifier.

Liberty's Edge

No Summon Monster spells on the spell list :(

I think this was mentioned above, but changing to the druid spell list also obviates the need for the Nature Spirit's Friend to Animals ability.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Hacklemonster.

Shadow Lodge

I have to agree that replacing the Shaman's spell list with the druid list (which I thought was a great idea) now makes the class feel decidedly oracle/druid rather than oracle/witch - probably something we should've caught when the class felt like it was already lacking its witchy feel earlier on.

The other spellcaster classes don't have the issue where, if the hybrid spellcaster class (shaman) multiclassed with the original class (druid), what would happen with spells?

Seems better to rename hexes, write out witch.


Dot


I am very happy to see the added spells on the list. This class went from my favorite new class when the playtest came out to something I had no interest in playing when it just went to druid spells. I am looking forward to making one of these guys again.

I agree with others that some hexes/abilities feel worthless, but there are enough in there that I like to keep me excited about this class.

If it is keeping the druid list, I would have no problem writing witch out of the ancestry. Of course I don't know how much this affects anything at the end of the day. My only reason for agreeing with the above posters on this matter is in the hopes that it might make it more likely that one of the future hybrids that have been hinted at might mate with the witch.

Scarab Sages

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So, not particularly happy about the change to the druid spell list, but I'll survive.

However, not a single thing appears to have been done with any of the spirits themselves.

You've gimped the healing capability of a Life Shaman. Battle Shaman are STILL better healers than a Life Shaman. I shouldn't want to just wander Life Shaman for channels. And now that they have lesser access to healing spells as well.

You know what? Replace the Life Shaman's Greater Spirit ability. They don't need a f'ing cantrip as a Greater Ability. Instead, Life Shaman at the Greater Spirit level may convert their stored spells to cure spells. Even if it's still at a druid and not cleric spell level, that makes a hell of a lot more sense. And aligns with their True Spirit ability as well.


While I absolutely LOVE the concept/idea of this class I couldn't help but notice that the selection of Shaman spirits was somewhat LACKING.

If I may be so bold, perhaps adding the following Spirits (based on the Oracle Mysteries of the same names) would be more prudent (?):

Additional Shaman Spirits: Ancestor, Dark Tapestry, Juju, Lunar, Metal, Occult, Outer Rifts, Spellscar, Time, Winter, Wood


An improvement but still missing something.


So...other than re-fluffing of the familiar and switch to druid list (eww, btw), what's changed? I had hoped that, you know, revisions were coming. It still feels half-baked. Disappointing.

Liberty's Edge

Perhaps we could have a separate thread for discussion of the Spirits in the same vein as Warpriest having a separate thread for discussion of the Blessings?


No Spiritual Ally?
C'moooooooooon.

Seriously though, other than that, I'm completely satisfied with the changes made.


Berselius wrote:

While I absolutely LOVE the concept/idea of this class I couldn't help but notice that the selection of Shaman spirits was somewhat LACKING.

If I may be so bold, perhaps adding the following Spirits (based on the Oracle Mysteries of the same names) would be more prudent (?):

Additional Shaman Spirits: Ancestor, Dark Tapestry, Juju, Lunar, Metal, Occult, Outer Rifts, Spellscar, Time, Winter, Wood

They've stated that all of the various setups were limited for the purposes of the playtest. They wanted to give people enough to build a variety of cool characters, but also wanted to keep it limited so that the playtest data could be more focused.

From what I understand, almost all of what you mentioned should be appearing in the final book. Just not in the playtest.


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I kinda like that the familiar is augmented by the spirits. It does make it stand out as different.

Liberty's Edge

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First thing I did with the PDF was check life spirit. Shaman still has the Healer's Touch Greater Spirit ability.

Quote:

Healer’s Touch (Su): With a touch of her hand, a shaman

can touch a dying creature to stabilize it without the
need of a Heal check. She can affect up to 6 people as
standard action. Furthermore, a shaman gains a +4
bonus on Heal checks.

Why is the level 8 ability so bad. It would be better replaced with +1 Channel Use. How does this even remotely compare to other greater spirit abilities like see in super natural darkness, inherent intellect bonuses, resist bonuses, etc. It's just...bad. I don't think I could ever play a life shaman because every time I see that ability I would just get angry at it. Though I guess the nature's greater spirit ability is pretty terrible too.

Honestly thinking about it, it seems like several of the spirit abilites and hexes are both based on revelations and some are just attached spirit and some to hexes with little to any balancing on power level. Some spirits the hexes are the real power, others the spirit abilities are.

I think the shaman class would play better if spirit abilities seems more representative of the spirit then the hexes do. After all every nature shaman will have Spirit of Nature at level 8, which tells me nature's shaman's plan to fall down a lot, otherwise why have this? And life oracles plan on running out of channel and need to stabilize everyone that failed the fireball save..?

On to the Druid spell list, I love this for the spirit's that are tied to elements. Flame Oracles for example have a terrible time of playing up their revelation because they are limited to just mystery spells to do so. Waves oracles are just kinda sad failures at it. Shaman's having access to a spell list that actually has fire and ice spells is awesome for this purpose.


Kalvit wrote:
However, we do have to address the issues that have been brought up. The familiar feels useless to Shaman players partly because there's reference to melee touch Hexes that the class just doesn't have. Up until the spell change, the toucher status of the familiar was only good for delivering buffs/heals at some distance. Not exactly a good thing, nor has the list improved the situation that much.

This is exacerbated by the fact that the familiar is as much a liability as it is an asset. The familiar not serving as a spellbook stand-in mitigates this somewhat, but using one's familiar to deliver touch hexes is still probably ill-advised, since it can very easily mean going the next day without spells. In my experience, the familiar usually ends up as something that's just sort of there. The abilities it contributes are essentially just not worth the risk that comes with using them. It's basically a non-feature.

Alexander Augunas wrote:
Shaman may not have the witch's mechanics, but it certainly nails the witch's theme. Witches barter with patrons. Shaman barter with spirits. The witch is definitely in this class.

I disagree; I think the class's theme is reflected by what it does more than by whatever arbitrary signifiers are tacked on to its abilities. I don't know if I really buy the similarity between patrons and spirits, besides; it's telling that the spirits mostly share their names and motifs with oracle mysteries, not witch patrons.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

This class get druid spell list + BONUS SPELLS taken from all other the place that druids normally don't get, many arcane spells and some cleric spells (ALL THE PLANAR ALLY SPELLS...now you playing with power!) + Spells bonus from their spirit, that they can effectively choose/switch around every day...

Yeah spell wise, this class has everything covered.

Dark Archive

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I'm a big fan of the spell list change. It's a great compromise that gets the flavour of the spell list right without sacrificing backward compatibility by giving it its own brand new list. In fact, I'd kind of like a similar approach on the bloodrager maybe. The brand new bloodrager spell list ended up being so similar to the magus spell list anyway, but because it's not the magus spell list a lot of the cool magus spells from books like Inner Sea Magic that actually would have felt useful on a bloodrager will never be available to them.

Anyway, big win on the spell list, even if I'd prefer the base list were witch rather than druid. The witch list is already an arcane/divine hybrid list (that pulls from the druid, no less), so it would be really interesting to see that list given to a divine caster too. It would certainly help quell cries that the witch is absent from the make-up of this class.

And on that note, I don't know that I agree that the witch is completely absent from the class. A few of the hexes feel kind of witchy, and it's a full prepared caster using a hybrid spell list, as well as communing with a familiar. Granted, it uses Wisdom as its casting stat (the native stat of the druid) and druids are also full prepared casters, but honestly a lot of the druidy aspects of the class are just a coincidence of the way the oracle and witch combine with one another. Other than the casting, the class doesn't feel the least bit druidy to me. I wouldn't complain with hexes that functioned more like witch hexes, though: functioning once per person per day.

I'm still not sure why this is a d8/three-quarter BAB class. I normally don't think of shamans as terribly well-built for battle and it would be nice to have a divine full caster that had an arcane caster's frame, especially since witches are more frail and so much of the shaman is pulled from the oracle. I'd rather see this reduced to d6/half BAB and see its spirits (especially hexes) ramped up a bit to accommodate. Especially if this keeps the druid spell list as its base, having an arcane caster's body with divine spells would allow the power to be pushed a little harder on its non-spell but equally mystical abilities.

Anyway, I still think this class is among the most solid, even if its spirits need serious cleaning up. The foundation is the most important part, and I think it's very close.


I'm not crazy about the spell list change. However, adding some cherry-picked cleric spells does cover a lot of ground, while allowing the shaman list to expand with every new druid spell published. I just don't know why a shaman needs so many specialized druid spells. The spirits brought me some goodberries, the spirits made my staff into a powerful shillelagh, the spirits... helped me turn into a tree, double the size of an animal, reshape wooden objects, meld into stone? So, I don't like this change, but I can live with it.

I still don't understand the Lore shaman's Benefit of wisdom, which has terrible synergies with Mental Acuity. I'd almost certainly take only one or other, splitting with a different spirit or wandering spirit.

The Nature shaman's schtick has been strongly affected by the switch to the druid spell list. The Nature shaman just became the shaman-shaman.


Benn Roe wrote:
Anyway, big win on the spell list, even if I'd prefer the base list were witch rather than druid. The witch list is already an arcane/divine hybrid list (that pulls from the druid, no less), so it would be really interesting to see that list given to a divine caster too. It would certainly help quell cries that the witch is absent from the make-up of this class.

I think the main issue with using the witch list is that that it could prove problematic if they want to stick to the standard divine casting mechanics, such as knowing the whole list automatically and ignoring spell failure chance.

Confusion curse is the only hex that seems "witchy" to me, personally. Otherwise, I can't say the "hybrid list" strikes me as particularly reminiscent of the witch, though, like you said, I think it's a good move nonetheless.

EDIT: Eh, I could see doubling the size of an animal fitting the concept, but the others are a little out there, I agree. It's not like some of the cleric spells wouldn't have been weird, too, though.

Benefit of wisdom is definitely another problematic hex. Really, basically every spirit has at least one hex or ability that's just outright terrible, either because it has terrible synergies with the rest of the spirit, it doesn't really do anything useful, it does something actively harmful to the Shaman, or some combination of the above.


Knifechief wrote:
Kalvit wrote:
However, we do have to address the issues that have been brought up. The familiar feels useless to Shaman players partly because there's reference to melee touch Hexes that the class just doesn't have. Up until the spell change, the toucher status of the familiar was only good for delivering buffs/heals at some distance. Not exactly a good thing, nor has the list improved the situation that much.
This is exacerbated by the fact that the familiar is as much a liability as it is an asset. The familiar not serving as a spellbook stand-in mitigates this somewhat, but using one's familiar to deliver touch hexes is still probably ill-advised, since it can very easily mean going the next day without spells. In my experience, the familiar usually ends up as something that's just sort of there. The abilities it contributes are essentially just not worth the risk that comes with using them. It's basically a non-feature.

Clearly, you have not seen Toucan familiars take out bosses in Rise of the Runelords by carrying a touch spell. I have seen that and other shenanigans involving said familiars being used to wreck encounters. Hand a hawk an alchemist's fire and watch things burn.


Kalvit wrote:
Knifechief wrote:
Kalvit wrote:
However, we do have to address the issues that have been brought up. The familiar feels useless to Shaman players partly because there's reference to melee touch Hexes that the class just doesn't have. Up until the spell change, the toucher status of the familiar was only good for delivering buffs/heals at some distance. Not exactly a good thing, nor has the list improved the situation that much.
This is exacerbated by the fact that the familiar is as much a liability as it is an asset. The familiar not serving as a spellbook stand-in mitigates this somewhat, but using one's familiar to deliver touch hexes is still probably ill-advised, since it can very easily mean going the next day without spells. In my experience, the familiar usually ends up as something that's just sort of there. The abilities it contributes are essentially just not worth the risk that comes with using them. It's basically a non-feature.
Clearly, you have not seen Toucan familiars take out bosses in Rise of the Runelords by carrying a touch spell. I have seen that and other shenanigans involving said familiars being used to wreck encounters. Hand a hawk an alchemist's fire and watch things burn.

It's still too high-risk to be advisable for Shaman. Wiz and Arcane Sorc still get spells tomorrow if their fragile pet dies, Shaman doesn't.


Scavion wrote:

Mother of CoDZilla.

They get access to both Divine Power and Wildshape.

Lyee, you wander for spells as well. They allow you to prepare the spirit magic spells in your slots as well.

But yeah some Spirits are pretty underpowered at low levels. But thats full casters in general.

I loooove the new spell list, but they should remove Divine Power.

I agree some Spirits are pretty underpowered at low levels, but I really don’t have any problem with that.

I hope they tone down the Codzilla part of the class and remove Divine Power (and medium armor proficiency). Swap Divine Power for arcane eye and remove medium armor and we have a winner.

And... I wouldn't mind having Remove Blindness/Deafness added to her list.

Errata: Shaman gets Heal added to her (Druid) list at spell level 7, but the Druid already has Heal as a level 7 spell.


Fair enough. This is the one situation where the idea of a Tattoo Familiar would solve all our issues here, but that's already a Sorcerer archetype thing.

Personally, I'd look at the encounter and try to figure where is the best place for the familiar to be while I'm doing the hard part so I don't lose spells the next day. A familiar that seems more naturally stealthy would likely be best here.


KramlmarK wrote:
It's still too high-risk to be advisable for Shaman. Wiz and Arcane Sorc still get spells tomorrow if their fragile pet dies, Shaman doesn't.

Yeah, to be clear, I was referring to witch familiars. Sorcerers and wizards can basically use theirs as free rods of reach with impunity.

Sovereign Court

im glad to see they added the good amount of spells from cleric list but the druid list is bs. its a oracle/witch. no where does tvhatv saym druid. now the shaman worthless healer. the class should of used cleric/witch list.

and still no use magic detvice. shamans used talismans and rods...y cant they do so in pfs


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wait... so the 3.5 spirit shaman's casting mechanic was recycled for the arcanist, but we can't use it for the shaman too? it's a great system for the kind of flexibility i think a shaman should have and it's certainly better than the weird blend of prepared and spontaneous casting currently implemented.


And it fits with the theme of hybrid classes, and it gives us a "divine arcanist."

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