The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of giving Bloodragers their own, unique, bloodlines separate from Sorcerers.
Bloodlines should be representative of powerful and/or destructive backgrounds:
Behemoth, Inevitable, Kyton, Linnorm, Nightshade, Qlippoth, Titan
Daemons would be good, but they're already represented in a sorcerer bloodline.
There should be some good ones in there as well- maybe Azata and/or Agathion bloodlines? (The latter could provide some bestial-like attacks and defenses.)
A good alternative/counterpart to the Fey bloodline could be either Tane or Eldest bloodlines.
And Ice, Magma, Lightning, and Mud instead of the standard Water, Fire, Air, and Earth Elementals.
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But how do those utility spells fit thematically with the Bloodrager?You're asking how does someone with a Undead Bloodline (who probably had a lich or vampire in their family line somewhere) justify having Suggestion as a spell? I think it's pretty obvious. The class only gets 4 bonus spells. If you want to go with certain themes you're a bit limited on what all your bloodline can add in as far as spells go.
Umm no, not at all. My statement was in response to those up above who were asking for the removal of Transmutation and Evocation spells in favor of utility spells.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of giving Bloodragers their own, unique, bloodlines separate from Sorcerers.
Bloodlines should be representative of powerful and/or destructive backgrounds:
Behemoth, Inevitable, Kyton, Linnorm, Nightshade, Qlippoth, Titan
Daemons would be good, but they're already represented in a sorcerer bloodline.
There should be some good ones in there as well- maybe Azata and/or Agathion bloodlines? (The latter could provide some bestial-like attacks and defenses.)
A good alternative/counterpart to the Fey bloodline could be either Tane or Eldest bloodlines.
And Ice, Magma, Lightning, and Mud instead of the standard Water, Fire, Air, and Earth Elementals.
You'll pry the fey bloodline from my cold dead hands. Benefit's not that great compared to some of the others, but the concept of some weird half-feral weirdo in an ancient fey filled forest (who probably has a huge chip on his shoulder about where he got his powers) just leaping out of nowhere in a blur, taking people down, and disappearing back into the trees is fantastic.
Really, I think most of the actually innately magical creatures are already covered by the sorcerer list, but I wouldn't mind seeing more (Kyton's a good catch... a qlippoth isn't ever going to be anyone's great grandmother, linnorm's already a thing, as is shadow).
Focusing exclusively on big tough things is kind of pidgeon-holing. You're always going to be big and tough. Some of the innately non-physical bloodlines currently out there can really add some interesting flavor though. I could see verdant being really great for instance. Skin hardening into bark, and giving a bunch of plant immunities. Big ol' wooden clubs growing into massive thorny bludgeons. Maestro's fun too. Lots of shouting, maybe your own personal soundtrack blaring as you hack people in half.
Would it be too greedy to hope for wildblooded variants too?
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of giving Bloodragers their own, unique, bloodlines separate from Sorcerers.
I really don't see them doing this. They're intentionally doubling up on Bloodlines for Sorcerer/Bloodrager, Domains/Blessings for Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor/Warpriest, and Mysteries/Spirits for Oracle/Shaman. The reason for this is that they don't have to have 8 categories of unique things to build for each and every class just 3 and those 3 will cover a large number of the classes.
Now, will they have some new ones in this book? Probably. And no reason not to include someone of the ones you mentioned.
Really, I think most of the actually innately magical creatures are already covered by the sorcerer list, but I wouldn't mind seeing more (Kyton's a good catch... a qlippoth isn't ever going to be anyone's great grandmother, linnorm's already a thing, as is shadow).
There's no Linnorm bloodline currently that I know of? Nor a Nightshade (I didn't mention shadow, which I knew of.)
I really don't see them doing this. They're intentionally doubling up on Bloodlines for Sorcerer/Bloodrager, Domains/Blessings for Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor/Warpriest, and Mysteries/Spirits for Oracle/Shaman...
No, I'm sure it won't happen, especially at this late stage of the playtest, but it's something that occurred to me the other day that I thought would make the Bloodragers more unique and differentiate them from sorcerers.
A guy can dream, though.
(And I do hope they do have something new, like a Kyton Bloodline. How awesome would it be to enter a bloodrage and have chains burst forth from your skin, flailing away at enemies?)
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Really, I think most of the actually innately magical creatures are already covered by the sorcerer list, but I wouldn't mind seeing more (Kyton's a good catch... a qlippoth isn't ever going to be anyone's great grandmother, linnorm's already a thing, as is shadow).There's no Linnorm bloodline currently that I know of? Nor a Nightshade (I didn't mention shadow, which I knew of.)
There is the wildblood alternate of the Dragon bloodline as well as a 3PP Linnorm Bloodline, which is pretty sweet.
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I really don't see them doing this. They're intentionally doubling up on Bloodlines for Sorcerer/Bloodrager, Domains/Blessings for Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor/Warpriest, and Mysteries/Spirits for Oracle/Shaman...No, I'm sure it won't happen, especially at this late stage of the playtest, but it's something that occurred to me the other day that I thought would make the Bloodragers more unique and differentiate them from sorcerers.
A guy can dream, though.
(And I do hope they do have something new, like a Kyton Bloodline. How awesome would it be to enter a bloodrage and have chains burst forth from your skin, flailing away at enemies?)
I do miss the Kyton Shirt from 3.5
I know ive mentioned this before but i feel the bloodrager is far more interesting when its not about him being angry so much as him being unstable. a not quite sorcerer who cannot control the magical forces and pressures inside their bodies, so the pressure just builds and builds until something snaps. usually a person shaped something. not so much a caster like the sorcerer and closer to an innately magical creature, that arrives at a razors balance that is always moments away from falling apart. the warrior with an unnatural influence he cannot control is certainly iconc enough to work with.
OK I'm sure there is an answer and someone has already mentioned it, but is the Blood Rager supposed to have a full caster level? I would think his caster level would be -3 like a Paladin but I don't see that listed anywhere.
Yes it is full caster level.
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19 str(out of rage)? that's quite high considering you want con and cha tooSo far, the aberrant first-level rage power (Fortitude save to avoid being staggered) is irrelevant. Every time I score a critical hit, I kill my opponent. Maybe I will get to use it at higher levels.
Confirmed crit damage: battle ax, 2-handed, 23 STR, Killer trait: 3d8+30
I see the class as /. Bubbs's CHA is 12, to be increased at level 8. Granted, Bubba's CON could be higher, but the Toughnes feat kinda compensates. Actually, critical hits when I'm not in bloodrage often kill opponents, too.
Anyway, Bubbs is a hell of a lot of fun to play.
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I know ive mentioned this before but i feel the bloodrager is far more interesting when it's not about him being angry so much as him being unstable....
That's where I got the name - and the character's personality.
"Bubba Ain't never been accused of being mentally stable"
Umm no, not at all. My statement was in response to those up above who were asking for the removal of Transmutation and Evocation spells in favor of utility spells.But how do those utility spells fit thematically with the Bloodrager?You're asking how does someone with a Undead Bloodline (who probably had a lich or vampire in their family line somewhere) justify having Suggestion as a spell? I think it's pretty obvious. The class only gets 4 bonus spells. If you want to go with certain themes you're a bit limited on what all your bloodline can add in as far as spells go.
You can justify utility spells the same as other spells. While the BR is more about smashing things and being angry he HAS some magic in his blood similar to the sorcerer. As long as he can cast out of rage there is no reason all his magic should be brutal.
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The thing is, with the kind of spells that you get, you can actually afford to not get many physical combat feats.
A barbarian who can cast spells including some utilities can get by with power attack and furious focus and cover any weakness in your fighting style with spells, between being able to fly by taking on monstrous or elemental forms, getting more natural attacks and of course the bloodline powers, BR could use some tweaking on the spells but frankly they will be more than fine.
one thing i wound like to see/add/know is the ability to take rage powers with the feats(extra rage power)
As much as I would like to make a Bloodrager with Beast Totem and Spell Sunder...The idea here is to create an interesting new class, not obsolete the Barbarian.
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I have to disagree with the idea of Constitution-based casting. Casting is a function of the mind, not the body.The bloodrager emphasizes in all its fluff that it casts magic from its blood, even going so far as to have a feature called Blood Casting. Blood being a part of the body, Constitution fits with the flavor of the class just fine.
This also supports the notion of casting during a rage, instead of the current situation where it seems a waste not to use that extra Strength.
Finally, a precedent for Constitution-based casting already exists (with whatever controversy) in the Advanced Race Guide. I wouldn't think it inappropriate to reduce the bloodrager's hit die to a d8 alongside this change.
I also wouldn't extend the same argument to cover Strength or Dexterity without a justifiable mechanic and strong supporting fluff.
Really not a fan of that idea.
Also something I was appearantly unaware of until recently is that HD and BAB progression are tied together so this wouldn't be doable without lowering the BR's BaB, which I'm REALLY NOT a fan of.
There needs to be an option where the Bloodrager can tap into the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list to learn new spells. This should be limited, but allowed somehow.
Also something I was appearantly unaware of until recently is that HD and BAB progression are tied together so this wouldn't be doable without lowering the BR's BaB, which I'm REALLY NOT a fan of.Eh, the system doesn't have any rule like this. That said, I'm against going down to a d8 die. Barbarian-like characters need hit points badly.
It actually is a rule. Half BAB get d6 hit die, 3/4 BAB get d8 hit die, full BAB get d10 hit die (Barbarian is exception and gets d12). It's not printed in the books, no, but it's a designer rule.
Of all the rules elements, converting a base class is the one that requires the most careful consideration. Most classes need a bit of an upgrade to be on par with those presented in the core rulebook. The f irst step is to ensure that the class’s Hit Dice and base attack progression match. If the class has a slow base attack progression (such as the wizard), it should use d6s for Hit Dice. Classes with the medium progression (such as clerics) should use d8s for Hit Dice, while those with a fast progression (such as fighters) should use d10s. As a general rule, if the class did not have a d12 Hit Die in 3.5, it should not get one in the Pathfinder RPG.
More of a guideline than a rule.
A 'guideline' the designers adhere to.
It just occurred to me: the save DC for Staggering Strike is based on CON modifier - is that the CON modifier while raging?
Yes, it should be.
I'm already thinking about how to make it work best. But as the BR is too MAD for TWF a single big 18-20 threat weapon with good CON and ability focus might be the best bet.And getting keen as soon as possible.
@Con casting: At least the aberrant bloodline would become too powerful by doing this imo. Having both staggering strike and casting be keyed off con in addition to it giving hp and rage rounds while buffing it through rage seems over the top.
Look at how much hate the scarred witchdoctor gets for con based casting.
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Human Aberrant Bloodline Bloodrager 15
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Perception +19
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Defense
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AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 14 (+1 armor, +1 dex, -2 while Raging)
hp 240 (15d10+15, 285 while raging)
Fort +16 (19 while Raging), Ref +6, Will +8 (+11 while Raging, +14 against Enchantment)
Defensive Abilities Improved Uncanny Dodge; DR 3/—; Moderate Fortification; Immune: Sickened and Nauseated
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee +5 Vicious Greatsword
+25/+20/+15 (2d6+2d6+7/19-20/×2)
+28/+219/+14 (2d6+2d6+10+12/19-20/x2) (raging and power attack)
Special Attacks: Staggering Strike (DC 25), Bloodrage 39 Rounds/day
Spell-Like Abilities
2/day- Magic Missile
2/day- Ray of Enfeeblement
Bloodrager Spells Known (CL 15th; concentration +31):
4th (3/day) - Detonate (DC 22), Stoneskin, Wall of Fire (DC 22), Wreath of Blades
3rd (4/day) - *Displacement*, Fireball (DC 21), Fly, Haste, Heroism, Vampiric Touch (DC 21)
2nd (4/day) - *See Invisibility*, Brow Gasher, False Life, Mirror Image, Protection from Arrows, Scorching Ray (DC 20), Spider Climb
1st (5/day) - *Enlarge Person*, Burning Hands (DC 19), Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement (DC 19), True Strike
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Statistics
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Str 20 (26), Dex 12, Con 20 (26), Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 27
Base Atk +15; CMB +20 (23); CMD 31 (34)
Feats: *Eschew Materials*, *Endurance, Diehard*, Combat Casting, Uncanny Concentration, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Pushing Assault, Minor Spell Expertise (Magic Missile), Minor Spell Expertise (Ray of Enfeeblement),
From Bloodline: Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Combat Reflexes
Traits: Focused Mind, Veteran of Battle
Skills: Knowledge Arcana +16, Perception +19, Spellcraft +16
Languages: Common
Special Qualities: Blood Casting, Aberrant Fortitude, Fast Movement, Blood Sanctuary, Indomitable Will, Unusual Anatomy, Bloodline (Aberrant)
Gear: +5 Vicious Adamantine Greatsword (75,050g)
Headband of Alluring Charisma + 6 (36,000g)
Ring of Evasion (25,000g)
Belt of Physical Might (90,000g)
Lesser Elemental Metamagic Rod (3,000g)
Lesser Intensified Metamagic Rod (3,000g)
Lesser Selective Metamagic Rod (3,000g)
Detonate Spell Materials x 10 (500g)
Stoneskin Spell Materials x 4 (1,000g)
Wreath of Blades Foci (2,008g)
Mithril Shirt (1,100g)
Potion of Cure Light Wounds x 6 (300g)
42g
I'm a big fan of the wilder, so I'm disappointed with the lack of face-melting lightning in this class.
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** spoiler omitted **...That is not much of a blaster caster. The equivalent sorcerer is throwing around DC32 Dazing Chain Lightning hitting everything on the board followed by Quickened Chain Lightning with Caster Level +9 or so for spell penetration. Non spell perfected evocations are floating around DC 29 with CL+ 5 for spell penetration.
You are casting 10d8 Detonates at DC22 or 15d6 Fireballs (with the intensify rod) at DC21. At this level monsters good save is likely to be in the range of +18 but their poor save is still around +13. Some quick examples include stuff like the Dread Wraith (Ref 14), Nalfeshne (Ref only 9 but SR25), Ancient White Dragon (Ref 14, SR26) or Horned Devil (Ref 17, SR27).
Now you might well face stuff with terrible reflex saves such as the Glabrezu (Ref 4 but SR) but even if you do you are looking at an average of 45 damage assuming they do actually fail. Level 15 monsters have roughly 220hp. Level 13 monsters have around 180hp. You can get more damage that than from a single attack and far more from a full attack if you focus on melee.
Evocation can be made useful and be brought to damage levels which can one shot enemies or at least leave them severely weakened but it takes a lot of investment to do so. Hitting everything for 20-25% of their health and no other effects is a waste of your turn.
Uhh if I can take out 20-25% of a creature's health in one shot with anything I'm considering that a plus.
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Yeah, but I think he means that as a blood rager, chances are you'll do more than that with a full attack, and you'll have a greater chance at striking them.
Well seeing as how I would just use the offensive spells in place of a bow or throwing axes for a regular barbarian I think the damage is pretty good.
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Uhh if I can take out 20-25% of a creature's health in one shot with anything I'm considering that a plus.You can consider it whatever you want. But it is crappy damage at that level.
Considering magic is secondary to the BR yeah I consider that a plus. What are you fighting that you like it to go down in one hit?
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Considering magic is secondary to the BR yeah I consider that a plus. What are you fighting that you like it to go down in one hit?Uhh if I can take out 20-25% of a creature's health in one shot with anything I'm considering that a plus.You can consider it whatever you want. But it is crappy damage at that level.Maybe it's just me, but whatever I am fighting, I'd like it to go down in one hit. Also, please remember that the 25% figure is IF they fail the save, which is far from a guarantee...you don't even have a 50% chance of that against almost any foe.
You'd honestly do better with a Composite Bow +14 or whatever your crazy strength bonus will be at that level while raging.
As a BR your spells are not secondary. At best they are tertiary. In any case they are a horrible tool for doing damage to any foe that matters. Just being use can get a horrible tool, does not mean you should use it. Nor does it mean you should be proud if you spend a bunch of resources to make a horrible tool into "not worthless". Because not worthless does not mean it is good.
You are a Bloodrager. Your job is to do damage. The damage from your spells is too low to earn a passing grade. It's as simple as that.
And from what I've seen the BR's spells do perfectly fine in damage department. Do they equal a Sorcerer? Absolutely not, and they never should. But their 1-4th spells work just fine as 1-4th level spells do.