| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I can live with the changes to the spell list, but to even match a bard for offense casting, they need a +1 DC to spells while raging, +1 more with greater and mighty bloodrage. That will bring the base DC of their spells up to 17 at 10th level, only slightly behind a Charisma-focused bard.
Why no eagle's splendor?
|
They got rid of Vanish and now only Arcane Bloodline can cast Invisibilty. :(
I am playtesting an Arcane BR myself, sadly not 11th level. As far as I can see, the idea is to hit rage, and instantly you get Resist Energy, Haste and a 2nd level buff, I would almost always pick Mirror Image. Then you run up to the enemy caster with your Disruptive and Spellbreaker feats and your greatsword.
Well, it isn't subtle but I think I can handle that.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh wow, the bloodrager spell list got *worse*.I do not understand this position. Bloodrager has now traded a little bit of their crowd control spells for better buffs. Overall, their spell list is stronger than the magus list up to the same level because very few people will attempt to DC cast with them. Yes, the loss of vanish is a little painful. But I would happily trade that for resist energy, heroism and see invisibility (which magus's do not get) any day of the week. The loss of black tentacles and web and the like is not really a problem since most bloodragers won't be rocking a huge Cha.
Bloodrager kept all of the other great buffs from the magus list as well. If it is utility that you feel is missing, I think such things have more cause to be in the hands of the Investigator or the like anyhow.
The Bloodrager I envision wanting to play jumps into the middle of enemies after casting Protection from Evil on himself, slashing their faces, then Invisibility-ing it out of there. One who can Grease the ground he's fighting on, because he's not worried about the acrobatics DC. I guess my biggest disappointment is no Invisibility, which I see as essential to this class (along with Enlarge Person, which fortunately stayed). Really, though, the idea of the class (Raging, for instance) is to get mad, cast some appropriate spells, then bust faces. Yes the Bloodline spells kind of shore up the deficiencies some, but until they're all as combat useful as Arcane, they're probably not gonna get taken.
The fact that the dev focus seems to want to cast blasty spells but has no way to increase DC's besides burn a pair of character feats on SF and GSF makes the blast heavy spell list worse. Lets look at Rage, it boosts STR and CON, but doesn't add in additional rage rounds. If Bloodrage boosted STR and CHA, but didn't add additional spells per day, it would at least go a small step toward increasing the DCs toward a level to where the spell list wouldn't be a useless heap. Or instead of that, how about replacing the useless DR1/- progression with a Bloodraging spell DC+1-5 increase. Now your Bloodrager at 20 has a decent DC for those level 4 spells (21+) instead of a low 16+.
already been said previously, BRs have full CL, unlike the paladin and ranger
It's not in the document, and unless a specific call out is given, someone like myself who hasn't read all 1500 replies to the original thread won't know that the intention is to be completely different than the existing two full/4 classes.
specific call-out was given, though yes, it's buried in the other thread. still dont know why it wasnt added to the OP of the thread.
So, when it comes to the Bloodrager it seems that many people (including myself) are concerned about two things currently:
- As things are right now, any spell on the bloodrager list with a Save DC is likely to be ignored.
- The bloodrager has too many barbarian abilities, and it would be nice to replace them with more magical abilities that fit the theme of the class.
Like I said before, I would really like to see each bloodline get *more* powers even if it costs the bloodrager their Uncanny Dodge and DR. Maybe give them another 'physical combat' power and also just give each bloodline a 'bloodline arcana' like the sorcerer to help with its spells as well.
Nice, but it still heavily stomps on the Barbarian's toes. I really like this class, it's is, IMHO, the best designed class in the play test, but it really doesn't need 2 capstone abilities, the Barbarian's and a bloodline one.
Considering how powerful bloodlines are, and the fact that BRs have spell, Bloodrage really doesn't need to be as powerful as Rage. BRs also don't UC and DR. Even Tireless Bloodrage is unnecessary, since BRs don't have "once per Bloodrage" abilities.
Really, the only Barbarian that can compete with a BR is a highly optimized Pouncing Spell-sundering Barbarian with CaGM.
Been saying that since the other thread.
Even worse, now Greater Bloodrage and Mighty Bloodrage are strictly superior to their Rage counterparts.
The good point about the new spell list is that I'm now free to dump cha because I will not use those spells anyways.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've said it somewhere else, but this is a class based on its bloodlines giving it power and while it is where you get the abilities, the class smells too much like a barbarian with spells and not enough like a melee sorcerer.
Re-theming things a little more on the side of drawing from the magics of their ancestors instead of on an overactive adrenal gland might make it feel a bit better in theme. If a sorcerer is playing a caster version of a destined child of the gods, then a bloodrager is its melee counterpart. These are the people descended from devils, angels, liches, and champions. This is the class that the heroes in ancient tales are made of.
The hereditary line that brings them into the realm of hero (or villain) is, I think, the major compelling thematic reason to want to play this class. As for name and concept, I think that's where it should be aiming instead of "a barbarian that can cast spells".
This is the class into which the legends are born. These are Scions.
[/diatribe]
Destined bloodline's Fated Bloodrager still says it caps out at +4 at 20th level, but going by the text it should say +5 (once at 4th, again at 8th and every 4 after that. so 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 = +5)
Like a lot of people have said before
- I'm seeing too much of the barbarian. Drop DR or uncanny dodge, losing one of those two would not hurt this class at all. I know that paizo needs to have abilities to drop for archetypes but maybe swap out bloodline spells, bloodline abilities, etc.
Other than that it looks pretty solid.
Some of those blasting spells are actually kind of viable once you get Spell Perfection at 15.
Still, the investment it would take, and the lack of spell slots, makes it not really worth it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some of those blasting spells are actually kind of viable once you get Spell Perfection at 15.
Still, the investment it would take, and the lack of spell slots, makes it not really worth it.
Yes, but I do like the idea that the Bloodrager is such an idiot, who can only barely comprehend the idea of even his own spells, that he becomes incredibly focused and good at Fireball.
"It goes Booom YAY".
Ravingdork, you are a well-known builder and optimiser, what feats do you think are needed?
I'd consider Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess, Tireless Rage...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't yet had a chance to really look at the updated content yet. Perhaps I'll answer your question once I know more.
Before the review came out it was said that the BR needs his own spell list to work. I would really like to know what about the new list it was the BR could not funktion without. Honestly.
Can anyone give me a list of spells this class needed that he has now and didn't have before?
We have read some examples for what good spells it lost. But which spells were the cause for the change? Or was the class seen as too strong before and hte new list was meant to be a nerf of some kind?
Please help me understand it.
|
|
@Gingerbread
My complaint about the old list was that the Magus list is the spell level weakest of the existing 6-level classes. Inquisitor and Bard had a number of higher level *other class* spells in their 5/6 range, and Summoner has 3 s/w 9's, but Magus had poopie. Now we took that already narrow spell list, chopped two levels off and gave it to a character that should approach combat completely differently (Akin to the Pal's list being just 1-4 of the Inquisitor).
I'll give the lists a side-by-side look later tonight and see what sorts of new list spells really shine vs the old magus list.
For the Celestial Bloodrager, is it possible to get some clarification of Wings of Heaven? There are no specifics given.
Wings of Heaven (Su): At 8th level, you can choose to sprout feathery wings and fly with a speed of 60 feet and good maneuverability. At 20th level, your fly speed increases to 80 feet.
Is it as the 3rd party Rite Publishing spell? Standard action casting time and 10 minutes per level?
What would be the economy on using the wings throughout the day? Is it possible to use in 10 minute blocks of time?
Thanks.
|
For the Celestial Bloodrager, is it possible to get some clarification of Wings of Heaven? There are no specifics given.
Wings of Heaven (Su): At 8th level, you can choose to sprout feathery wings and fly with a speed of 60 feet and good maneuverability. At 20th level, your fly speed increases to 80 feet.Is it as the 3rd party Rite Publishing spell? Standard action casting time and 10 minutes per level?
What would be the economy on using the wings throughout the day? Is it possible to use in 10 minute blocks of time?
Thanks.
You can choose to activate as part of when you activate Bloodrage, and it lasts throughout the entire Bloodrage.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
How about replacing improved uncanny dodge with an improved blood sanctuary that grants the bloodrager an addition +2 against his own spells and ally spells along with evasion and stalwart against ally spells and his own? The DR class feature can be replaced with more +1 bonuses to blood sanctuary as well.
Perhaps also grant them the ability to cast AOE spells as a swift action centered on themselves as well? It is a strong ability, but at the same time it is risky and will make them run dry on spells fast if misused. The DCs will still be low as well, and the damage will be low since the caps were reached long ago. I think its a fair ability with these downsides in mind.
This will further differentiate these two classes and grant the bloodrager a really unique mechanic.
|
|
Adam B., I'm into that, maybe as an archetype.
Swapping out UD and IUD for the ability to encourage the party Sorcerer to aim Fireballs at oneself is exactly the sort of thing a Bloodrager might enjoy doing.
Sometimes I fear people look at class abilities in terms of number crunching too much. This is the sort of thing that has mechanical power and would cause delight around the table.
Round 1:
Bloodrager wins Init. Charges into the Ogre horde. He has Fast Movement and Blur, he's flying in, swinging.
He yells to his party friend, "Hit it, baby!"
Wizard nods and casts Black Tentacles straight at him. Bloodrager screams in delight and beheads every idiot standing near him
You can choose to activate as part of when you activate Bloodrage, and it lasts throughout the entire Bloodrage.
Not sure what I was thinking, yes. Thank you.
I'll be honest, I really like the character that I've created around the Celestial Bloodrager for Wrath of the Righteous but otherwise I don't think I'd be playing the class again. Said to my GM tonight, I think the class is good at a lot of things but great at none of them. Maybe I'll feel differently in another level or two.
Initial impressions, having only skimmed the previous version of the class:
Blood Casting needs to explicitly call out whether casting defensively (or other situations which require concentration checks) are permitted during a bloodrage or not. Bloodrage by itself blocks them, because you can't concentrate. Being able to cast spells does not in and of itself let you concentrate harder than normal on casting them if you can't concentrate in the first place.
--------
Mighty Bloodrage - it's unclear whether the spell can be one that doesn't have a range of personal or touch or not. The 2nd level restriction is explicitly removed, but the other restriction is only implicitly so.
I don't know if that actually matters, since the spell is still specifically targeting himself, but it probably will lead to odd corner cases if not clarified.
--------
Arcane bloodline: Does the "in addition to" wording mean you get to choose an Arcane Bloodrage spell, a Greater Arcane Bloodrage spell and a True Arcane Bloodrage spell if you're high enough level? All that on top of Greater Bloodrage's spell... that's a lot of sudden buffs. Also, transformation isn't very useful to a 16th level bloodrager, especially if you lose your spellcasting ability. You've likely got physical enhancement bonus already, your BAB will be at (or maybe a point off of) your character level, and you're already proficient with all martial weapons.
Also, are these abilities dispellable? Spell-like? Arcane Bloodrage is (Sp), but the other two are (Ex).
---------
Celestial bloodline: How does the minute of fatigue work when you're 16th? Is it tacked onto the fatigue from raging, or is it simultaneous (i.e. fatigued for the longer of the two).
I'll be in favor of the self nuking option when the spells are better. As it is now you can drop an unmodified 10d6 fireball on yourself at level 10 with a save dc of 13+cha mod, which would be... what? Dc 18 save for half if you went bonkers on your charisma score.
10d6 = 10*3.5
35 damage on average if they fail their dc 18 reflex save.
underwhelming imo
Yes it would be a low amount of damage, but don't forget the rest of my post. It would be a low amount of damage but also a swift action. You could move-attack-drop fireball all in one turn. Or full attack then drop the fireball. This is not casting a piddly spell in place of attacking, it is in addition too!
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
There is a spell on the spell list named "Feature fall" I think it is supposed to be "Feather Fall".
Like a lot of people have said before
- I'm seeing too much of the barbarian. Drop DR or uncanny dodge, losing one of those two would not hurt this class at all. I know that paizo needs to have abilities to drop for archetypes but maybe swap out bloodline spells, bloodline abilities, etc.
Other than that it looks pretty solid.
It supposed to be a Barbarian who's power comes from magic/ancient bloodlines not physical rage. If you want more magic go play a sorcerer and optimize for melee combat (I have seen it done, it works nicely). The bloodrager is an alternate class option like the ninja or Samurai, and nobody looked at the ninja and said "Its too rouge"
Contributor
|
I was really hoping for more changes, though I do like some of the changes that came about.
Blood Sanctuary is nice. I agree with the sentiment that some sort of evasion-like ability would help it, but even without, it's a neat little bonus. Some sort of magic-themed (improved) uncanny dodge would be perfect for the magic-themed barbarian.
I like that greater and mighty rage has the free-spell-with-entry thing, but why doesn't regular bloodrage? You could toss in the same ability with only 1st level spells as part of Blood Casting. It would make up for a lot of the "why bother?" problem the class seems to face.
In the end, the biggest thing I see missing from the BR is a solid connection between their spellcasting and their raging. There's no incentive to do so at all. You're spending rounds per day to be stronger, tougher, and more deadly, but spending an action to cast a spell only wastes that round of rage. Switching Con for Cha would be awesome, giving a healthy pump to DC's and such, but even a small scaling bonus to DC's or a rage-round-able metamagic-dump would be enough. Even something akin to harmonic spell would be nice.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The new spell list sucks. 4th level casters need early access to spells. They were better off with the Magus spell list.
Before the review came out it was said that the BR needs his own spell list to work. I would really like to know what about the new list it was the BR could not funktion without. Honestly.
Can anyone give me a list of spells this class needed that he has now and didn't have before?
Here's another look at the Spell List. All the Spells that Bloodrager has that the Magus doesn't:1st
cause fear - almost useless at the level you get it.
endure elements (odd the Magus doesn't have this. EVERY other caster does except the Witch, even Paladins and Rangers have it!)2nd (these are decent)
false life
protection from arrows
resist energy
see invisibility3rd (these are decent)
heroism
protection from energy4th
NoneNote: slow/haste appear as 4th and 3rd level spells.
I've seen this posting. But none of the above spells strike me as must haves that forced the developers to make a new list. That's why I asked you (or the developers) which of those spells it is that I am missing.
I see endure elements, resist energy, protection from energy as fitting. But after they first said the class would not get a new spell list to have some spells that might fit is not enough to warrant changing this decision.And it sure doesn't look like the class doesn't work without them.
In addition I've read comments here about all those strong buff spells the new list has that the magus list is lacking. Can all those strong buffs be just heroism?
i feel like it would be better off with the full sorceror spell list, so much of which is being cut out.
i just don't see too much early entry, and likewise it's missing things like lead blades/gravity bow (on ranger + wiz/sorc list, why not here?)
but i really miss a broader array of arcane spells, like vanish/invisibility, i.e. utility.
they are based off of sorceror casting, why not include this?
inherently they are not going to be good at save or suck and so on, although including such spells doesn't really hurt.
i would really like to see Dispel Magic for one, they have full caster level, so why can't they use it?
really, i think giving them the full sorceror spell list, and adding certain spells/allowing early entry(lower spell level) on some
will return a better result and importantly allow full compatability with all spell sources including future ones.
Also: why not grant a Bonus Class Skill based on Blood Line?
|
Contributor
|
i feel like it would be better off with the full sorceror spell list, so much of which is being cut out.
...
but i really miss a broader array of arcane spells, like vanish/invisibility, i.e. utility.
they are based off of sorceror casting, why not include this?
...
really, i think giving them the full sorceror spell list, and adding certain spells/allowing early entry(lower spell level) on some will return a better result and importantly allow full compatability with all spell sources including future ones.
Think of it like the magus. They said before the playtest came out that the magus was sort of a proto-hybrid class, melding fighter with wizard into a new, shiny package with its own special tricks. It gets spell combat, spellstrike, arcana, and its own spell list.
Giving it 4/9 sorcerer casting would be pretty poor as the spells would come too slowly too late. Giving it more than 4/9 casting would probably dump it down to 3/4 BAB instead of full.
|
|
The bloodrager concept is all about the bloodline, and yet bloodline spells are gained late.
The bloodrager gains his bloodline spells 3 levels late - he gains his first level bloodline spell when he gains his second level normal spell, and so on. While I can see balance reasons to have the bloodline spells come late in this way, I feel it hurts the concept a lot (just like the similar effect on the sorcerer does).
I feel that the bloodline spell should be the power that comes to the bloodrager (and sorcerer) early and naturally. It ought to be the first spell of each level he learns. If this means the bloodrager spells known list has to be scaled back, I can live with that. I could actually see how the bloodrager would get ONLY the bloodline spells at levels where he has zero spells of a particular level (levels 4, 7, 10, and 13).
AGREED. At the very least, there should be an "immediate free swap-out" deal if you elect to take the bloodline spells of your own accord as one of your "normal" Spells Known before your Bloodline gets around to granting them, know what I mean?
The Bloodrager class, as a whole, seems like it would be a functional class, more or less on par with a Barbarian (if nobody's said the obvious before now, I'll point out that the Bloodrager's NEED for at least as much Charisma as a Ranger has Wisdom is a significant difference from the Barbarian, since that has to siphon points/good rolls away from physical ability scores, of which Barbarians and Bloodragers both want all three). HOWEVER, I think its Achilles' heel is the sheer CONCEPT. It kind of puts the premise of this entire book on trial: "Yes, we CAN take any two existing classes and try to goosh them together into a single self-contained base class...but SHOULD we?" Classes like the Warpriest, Swashbuckler, and Shaman pass this test clean enough, but the Bloodrager kind of struggles with conceptual validation. The fantasy Barbarian is ultimately rooted in Conan - and I kind of shudder to think of what HE would think of this class ("ABOMINATION! You're worse than some filthy necromancer!"). On the Sorcerer end of things: I have ALWAYS disliked the detour 3rd Edition wound up taking with arcane magic, where Intelligence as the source one's magic became the exception rather than the rule. It makes sense for Bards to base their magic in Charisma, but I always thought Sorcerers and Warlocks and such should have been Intelligence-based, or at least more so than not. The Bloodrager might be another class where Charisma was a valid primary basis for their magic, but mages should be at least half-way smart, okay? I HAD thought of one character concept that appealed to me: A Moroi-Born Dhampir Bloodrager of the Undead Bloodline, a Byronic "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" rebel aristocrat - but that's a slightly long walk from the basic premise of a Barbarian-Sorcerer.
Is it too late in the process to take a serious conceptual reevaluation of some of these classes? This could work with refinement - the basic concept is a primitive warrior-mage, and there's a couple of legitemate tacks one could take with that. A "Totem Warrior" - like the existing Barbarian Totems taken from a handful of Rage Powers and taken to a far greater level. "Angakoq" sounds like it might not be a bad word. The Shaman from World of Warcraft, with its well-rounded mixture of direct magical devastation and solid wallops to the head, likewise seems like a good example to look toward in this case.
It supposed to be a Barbarian who's power comes from magic/ancient bloodlines not physical rage. If you want more magic go play a sorcerer and optimize for melee combat (I have seen it done, it works nicely). The bloodrager is an alternate class option like the ninja or Samurai, and nobody looked at the ninja and said "Its too rouge"Like a lot of people have said before
- I'm seeing too much of the barbarian. Drop DR or uncanny dodge, losing one of those two would not hurt this class at all. I know that paizo needs to have abilities to drop for archetypes but maybe swap out bloodline spells, bloodline abilities, etc.
Other than that it looks pretty solid.
I've got a ninja that I suspect people feel is too rouge - he's got a makeup kit.
@Drachasor: Thanks for getting my point about Spell Lists/4 level Casting/Lack of early entry.
4 Spell Level Casting lists more than any other truly need early entry and special off-type spells, but we don't see that here,
that's why I wrote that just having a 4 level cut-down Sorceror list would be better than what we see,
since what we're seeing isn't much more than a greatly reduced Sorceror list.
I am definitely down to see a highly tuned list going BEYOND what Sorceror grants as well as early entry on Sorc spells.
Something like Lead Blades/Gravity Bow (Ranger and Wiz/Sorc 1) seems right up the martial bent of this, yet missing.
And I think there's room for utility way more than now, Dispel Magic for one, but others.
There's alot of ways to go, and ultimately the few slots and spells known is a major limiter, but leave it to the player to negotiate that:
The variety of Bloodlines already sets up the class towards a broad variety of themes and tropes, so don't limit their expression with an overly narrow spell list,
especially when the fluff of the class is similar to Sorcerors,
that their spellcasting power is coming from these diverse sources... so they should be able to have diverse spells to match.
I like Drachasor's ideas:
1: Drop Fast Movement, DR, etc. Not any specific one of these, but they're all pretty tangential and un-necessary IMHO. OK, it's good to keep maybe one or two for Barbarian flavor (and fodder for Archetypes) but some can be dumped off the bat.
2: I agree with the more spells/day, as a spontaneous 4 level caster doing this is not going to massively increase the power level but will make playeability alot nicer. Fueling them with Rage Rounds (per Spell Level) seems plausible.
3: Free quicken or other metamagic by some means (also Rage Rounds?) seems reasonable and again is inherently limited by the 4 level casting. I could see the type of metamagic being tied to the Bloodlines actually... And somehow I don't want to see every martial-caster hybrid go the Magus route of combining casting+fighting in the same round, to a limited extent that's OK but I don't think it's necessary, especially not for 4 level casters. (Bards approach it the other way around, by Performance's action requirement dropping to be more compatable with casting or fighting).
4: Some DC boost sounds reasonable and not problematic to do, given 4 level casting and MAD meaning DCs are kind of a joke no matter what. It could be school/bloodline specific, giving impetus to go for spells outside of what people might say is the optimum now.
5: Uh... Yes x 1000 :-) Better spell list. Possibly 'hand selecting' spells to add to your personal spell list could be the way to go (similar to Magus ability), although I don't see the problem with saying Bloodrager List = 4 levels of Sorceror List + any early entry spells desired from other sources.
I like the idea of Rage-quickened casting; without some innate quickened casting ability or something like the Magus's Spell Combat, your best combat tactic is just to melee the opponent and I think that loses some of the 'feel' of the class.
Echoing a desire for DC boosts through some means also - Quandary's idea of tying the higher DC back to your bloodline in some way would be mechanically interesting and thematically appropriate. See below for an odd thought*.
I also want to reiterate that I like the idea of the Blood Sanctuary rager - ignoring the fact that he could be injured by his own spells or those of his allies.
*It may make for some extra bookkeeping but what if instead of having a class spell list the various bloodlines had much-expanded spell lists, and those were the primary source for the Bloodrager's spells? The 'class' list could consist of only a handful of spells at each level, and the bulk of the spells would come from the player's choice of bloodline; those spells granted by the bloodline would then have a higher DC or perhaps operate at a higher caster level.
|
|
What about instead of spells they do spell-like abilities, similar to the warlock or dragon shaman in 3.5?
It would keep the design of the sorcerer's innate magic
Spell like abilities don't provoke attack of opportunity so the barbarian side can still whack things
dc scales better
The self nuking thing works since you can implement quicken spell like abilities
Gives the BR something to set it apart from other Gish characters
Spell like abilities do indeed provoke. See the table at the top of the page: Glossary
What likrin suggests could be an option. While it is not my favourite I like it much better as what we have now. Because now the spells seem like a trap option no one will really make any good use of.
What about instead of spells they do spell-like abilities, similar to the warlock or dragon shaman in 3.5?
It would keep the design of the sorcerer's innate magic
dc scales better
The self nuking thing works since you can implement quicken spell like abilities
Gives the BR something to set it apart from other Gish characters
+1 , if only because it fits better thematically than the current casting system.
I also like the idea of early access to "elemental body" style spells depending on the bloodline of the rager.