Will we see revisions like this for the other hybrids?
i would love to see a WIS caster for the arcane side, and seeing through the smoke and mirrors to break magc down to it's core essence seems fitting for it (as has been noted repeatedly by others thus far).
I take your magic and turn it against you? Did anyone else think of the Mord-Sith from the Sword of Truth series when they read this?
See... Now I have to play one...
Just kinda curious.
We were told there would be no going back to the drawing board.
I'm glad that's not the case, but now others may expect the same treatment for the other classes as well.
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I'm failing to see how taking magic apart at its roots and manipulating it is any different, conceptually, from what a wizard already does.
A wizard does it, a sorcerer too. But the arcanist would be specialized in doing so.
Wizard is mostly about rote memorization. Years of studying what is. practicing what is. Finding magic that already is.
Sure, they can delve into the realm of playing around with the basics and fundamentals. But that isn't their focus. What wizard does best is massive scale magic familiarity, and rote short term memorization.
Sorcerers too can toy with the foundation of magic. But most of their powers are inherent, driven by sheer force of will.
The arcanist has some latent powers, enough at least. But his real gift is that he 'gets' magic. Down to the core, he knows what makes it tick. He doesn't just know how to make the right gesture, like a wizard does, he know why that is even the right gesture.
He doesn't have the capacity to memorize like a wizard, he doesn't have the sheer magical potential of the sorcerer either. But he gets it all, on a fundamental level.
That's why when he prepares a spell, it sticks around to be cast again. Because he didn’t just memorize it, he understands it intimately down to core of what magic itself is.
Analogy: Cooking
A wizard follows the recipe. He follows it perfectly every time. He doesn't really understand why his food turns out the way it does, except that if he follows the recipe, it'll be perfect. Why does basil taste good in some dishes and not in others? That's anyone’s guess. But he has a big ol cookbook with a ton of recipes, and he could look up which ones have basil in them for you... He is 'structured' and a perfectionist.
A sorcerer doesn’t have the time or inclination to read some silly book. He has a nose for cooking. He's learned to perfect a number of recipes, and he makes them well. If something isn't quite right, he can just tell, and can probably figure out how to fix it. His intuition tells him what goes great with a bit of basil, and it hasn't let him down before... He has good taste, and knows what 'he' likes.
An Arcanist learns the theory of cooking. He understands cooking on a deeper level. He has a cookbook he consults, but he can change things up a bit when needed, so doesn't rely on it as much, because he knows why basil complements some flavors and not others. He knows why some textures work better than others, and in what combinations, and he understands that a good dish has to appease all of the senses, so can spruce up a dish by adding a little dash of color or garnish. He knows the 'fundamental' underpinnings of food theory.
Love the concept and very intrigued to see a spellcaster that spins from a different direction but as an earlier poster asked is the planned hybrid for this class? Sorcerer/ Rogue for the talents and skills? Maybe Alchemist? Very excited to see this one grow!
Just kinda curious.
We were told there would be no going back to the drawing board.
I'm glad that's not the case, but now others may expect the same treatment for the other classes as well.
i should hope so.
I was interested in the Arcanist before, mainly because none of the existing classes quite hit the right spot for my imaginings of one of my characters.
NOW you have gone and made the concept EXACTLY what I was looking for.
And for the Riftwar fans, the scene that popped immediately to my head when I read the description was when Macros took the little magic hammer and used its magic power to enchant Arutha's sword.
Now there's something the Arcanist should be able to do, meld magical items, either two items together, or onto a mundane one. Great possibilities here.
I'm failing to see how taking magic apart at its roots and manipulating it is any different, conceptually, from what a wizard already does.A wizard does it, a sorcerer too. But the arcanist would be specialized in doing so.
...
I've got to say I dont quite like your analogy, because the way you describe the arcanist is how I've always viewed the wizard, and doesnt really take into acount the intuitive aspect that the arcanist is supposed to bring.
BUT, semantic & philosophical discussions aside, it's nice to see these guys being given focus. They were one of the less flavorful new classes, and hopefully this will give them better direction.
Though this new take is indeed cool, am I the only one who actually liked the original flavor of the class?
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Analogy: Cooking
A wizard follows the recipe. He follows it perfectly every time. He doesn't really understand why his food turns out the way it does, except that if he follows the recipe, it'll be perfect. Why does basil taste good in some dishes and not in others? That's anyone’s guess. But he has a big ol cookbook with a ton of recipes, and he could look up which ones have basil in them for you... He is 'structured' and a perfectionist.A sorcerer doesn’t have the time or inclination to read some silly book. He has a nose for cooking. He's learned to perfect a number of recipes, and he makes them well. If something isn't quite right, he can just tell, and can probably figure out how to fix it....
Best analogy yet and explains why I love this class more and more. I read the recipe, follow it up until I want to do my own thing with it. After a few times, I flow off of memory and knowledge of cooking. LOVE IT! (note:I have worked in restaurants for 15 years)
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To that end, some of the parts of this class are back in design and we are hoping to share the revisions with you very soon. Before we get to that, I wanted to share with you the new direction we are exploring to get some feedback and hear your thoughts before we get too far down the trail on the revisions. [...]
Of course, that is not all we are doing to this class. To match up with its new flavor, we are reworking a number of its class features. [...]
Jason, any word on when we might get our hands on the revised Arcanist? I'm running a scenario on Sunday (#4-18 The Veteran's Vault) that the boss looks like a prime candidate to change into an Arcanist. If we won't have the rules that soon, I'll probably turn her into a Shaman instead.
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Jason, any word on when we might get our hands on the revised Arcanist? I'm running a scenario on Sunday (#4-18 The Veteran's Vault) that the boss looks like a prime candidate to change into an Arcanist. If we won't have the rules that soon, I'll probably turn her into a Shaman instead.To that end, some of the parts of this class are back in design and we are hoping to share the revisions with you very soon. Before we get to that, I wanted to share with you the new direction we are exploring to get some feedback and hear your thoughts before we get too far down the trail on the revisions. [...]
Of course, that is not all we are doing to this class. To match up with its new flavor, we are reworking a number of its class features. [...]
Really hope you're not talking about running that for PFS credit...
I take your magic and turn it against you? Did anyone else think of the Mord-Sith from the Sword of Truth series when they read this?
Barring the martial prowess of the Mord-Sith, I do see it a fitting comparison. Also, Kevin Bacon from X-Men: First Class comes to mind.
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Phew, okay, scared me there. :)
Anyway, arcanist! Love the new idea; I'm planning on building a character tonight to play in Accursed Halls tomorrow, and was originally planning on Slayer, but now I'm curious about the Arcanist. Wonder if its changes are likely to be up within the next 9 hours or so... ;)
Analogy: Cooking
A wizard follows the recipe. He follows it perfectly every time. He doesn't really understand why his food turns out the way it does, except that if he follows the recipe, it'll be perfect. Why does basil taste good in some dishes and not in others? That's anyone’s guess. But he has a big ol cookbook with a ton of recipes, and he could look up which ones have basil in them for you... He is 'structured' and a perfectionist.A sorcerer doesn’t have the time or inclination to read some silly book. He has a nose for cooking. He's learned to perfect a number of recipes, and he makes them well. If something isn't quite right, he can just tell, and can probably figure out how to fix it....
I think of it more as engineering…
A wizard specializes in coming up with and following designs when building something.
A sorcerer throws stuff together and sort of hopes it works, and I it does, they throw stuff together in the same order to use again.
An Arcanist follows designs, but replaces some stuff with other items he threw in, and also focuses on reverse engineering.
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Though this new take is indeed cool, am I the only one who actually liked the original flavor of the class?
Nope. I like them both.
Cool stuff, Jason. I really like to see that the feedback being received is being...well, received.
That being said, I look forward to seeing the new take on the class and will refrain from posting nonsense about a concept that is not even available to us yet.
my expectation was that it would fill some sort of empty space flavor or conceptwise. All the other hybrids try to do that.
Arcanist dosent it simply make the parent classes smaller.The parent classes have not changed. No one has snuck into my room and sharpied on my books or anything, as far as I can tell. Has someone hand edited any of your books? I'm not sure you can blame that on the arcanist...
You expect it to fill an empty space flavor or concept-wise. And you say that all the other hybrid classes do this? Interesting.
Well, I'm not sure that is actually true. How does a Brawler (class) fill a flavor or concept that the Brawler (archetype) doesn't fill? They even share the same name!
The truth is, not a whole lot is 'new' about any of these classes. These aren't 'new' classes. These are new 'hybrid' classes of 'old' classes.
The first look at Arcanist was rather bland, and the dev team has already responded to that nearly unanimous opinion. How? By scrapping the bloodfocus concept, and giving us this new vision of an arcane caster who can pull magic apart by the seams to reapply those mystical energies in ways he sees fit.
So, if you're looking for flavor, it is there. If it isn't the flavor you want? Well... that is very different from 'there is no flavor'.
Lets talk about the brawler in the other thread. But here we must be content with not agreeing. And pehaps share the hope that the new version will be ready for test this saturday:)
Edit: i dont Spell like a wizard:(
I'm glad to see the Blood Focus class feature go, and am very keen to see the re-designed Arcanist.
Parts of the description made me think of the Spellthief. Other parts reminded me of classes from various other RPGs and iterations of D&D, with the ability to break down the essential magic in one item, and then either store it or transfer it immediately to another item. It would be cool indeed to have a class which can do the latter.
"Found too many longswords +1? Turn four of them into one longsword +2!"
But only if there are enough checks and balances in the system to prevent crafting abuse, please! I've heard too many horror stories about Eberron's all-powerful Artificer class ...
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Thanks Jason and the rest of the design team!! The arcanist had previously been high on the list of classes that excited me, but after reading through the playtest document I was pretty unenthused by it. The new concept sounds exactly the way I'd like these hybrids to be: two parts blended in an interesting new way, reminiscent of both parent classes, but combined into something that plays differently from either.
This sounds completely awesome!
I have been playing a character (sorcerer variant) that is in this design space (able to swap out spells rapidly). Even without a permanent spellbook, I don't have much room to have extra class features and stay balanced with the rest of the group. There's even a hefty dose of "anti-magic" flavor in what I'm playing.
The new features sound much better (much clearer, more original, less cluttered), and also sounds like potentially a very large power boost, even with the removal of the bonus feats. However, from the description of the arcane reservoir, it should be possible to draw strength out of the spellcasting (fewer spells prepared, or fewer spells per day) to add flexibility to the new ability.
I guess my point is to urge caution.
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Just my 2 cents.
Since the arcanist taps into the core of magic, it would seem appropriate to give the class some ability similar to Words of Power, in terms of game mechanics.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this completed. Some of the fluff you describe in the OP reminds me a bit of the old Spellfire from Forgotten Realms back in the old days
poo i was hoping you would keep the bloodline pick, make empyreal bloodline work and then turn the arcanist into a wisdom based user mwa haha.
but this could be better than that. cheers
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I am literally trembling with excitement to see this new mechanic. I looooooooooooooved the spellcasting mechanics of this class, and it's going to keep those and gain something else that's even more cool?!??
*SWOOOOOOOOONS*
More or less where I'm at. Loved the casting system when I read it, but it felt like that's all there was. So now we get to keep that and gain some brand-new class features! Sweet!
So can the new arcanist make it into our Thanksgiving stockings...? Probably asking a bit much, but one can hope :)
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So the ideas I was getting from the original arcanist morphed into this for me anyway.
Only posting this here to try and get across more concisely what I was thinking about the class initially, and compared to now. Might no longer be what the main concept is driven for but an archetype in that route would still be nice... :-p
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Excellent. I think this a great direction.
My main concern with Arcanist wasn't the Sor/Wiz/Arc Supremacy argument, but with how utterly...well, 3.5 it felt. Very basic, very bland.
THIS feels like something that will add /to/ the game thematically versus just copypasta.
PLEASE keep up the amazing work; if the final version lives up to the description, I see this becoming my first class I try out of the new set.
Wow. This seems great, I hope we can get an official writeup soon as that will be easier to test out.
Like the flavor, warpriest needs a lot of love as well.
It definately sounds interesting. This class went from 'I'm considering not allowing it at my table at all' to 'hmmm...i might want to play that'
if i might make a suggestion, perhaps he can absorb a small amount of arcane points whenever he makes a save vs a single target spell that negates the effect? It might be too easy a source but it seems like it is just really cool imagery that fits where this is going. ALSO i would LOVE if at some point an archetype came out that pushed this into blue mage territory; IE using the supernatural abilities of monsters.
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When I first saw the Arcanist it was such a letdown because it had absolutely no new flavor to it; just another arcane caster. I like the new flavor direction the class is going in but I'm still not completely sold on it. I'm just not sure there is a need for another arcane class like this. . . . unless by "tinkering" with magic you perhaps mean something akin to an artificer ;)