I agree. At first glance a lot of these appear to be nothing more than mashing of two classes. Lot of these could have been simply Archetypes. Obviously, this is a playtest, but I'm feeling a bit underwhelmed.
The entire point of the new classes is that it's a hybrid of two core/base classes. It's been mentioned several times that they are intended to feel familiar. It's probably worth mentioning in the actual class thread for each class you feel this for.
Bloodrager, for me, is a perfect blend of barbarian and sorcerer. It's all about rage and bloodlines. Better yet, it uses the magus spell list, which is pretty combat focused. While it doesn't have anything overly new to add to the mix (the bloodlines have been retooled though) it doesn't really need much.
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Personally I think they need to re-tune them to fall more in line with the Magus.
I mean really some could be alternate classes of some other base class while others deserve there status.
Bloodrager needs at least one line to be able to negate being an alternate class while Warpriest could easily be slightly reworked into an Inquisitor or Cleric Alternate Class.
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Personally I think the magus should be the baseline for these classes. It combines the fighter and wizard in a fairly novel way. A lot of these classes just take a smattering of class features from each (or sometimes from 3 classes... Warpriest gets a sacred bond-ish ability, Swashbucklers get Precise Strike from duelist, etc.)
Now, maybe that's not feasible. After all, magus was just one class, and this is 10 being released. Still, I don't want to buy a book whose main feature is 10 slightly more convenient multiclass combinations.
I will admit that Arcanist is a nice addition if only from a World Building aspect though I would have loved to see a Cleric/Oracle type as well alongside a Cleric/Wizard or Oracle/Sorcerer type.
Heck those wouldn't need the Alternate Class restriction simply do to the way CL and Spells work.
Honestly I could see making this to have 15 Classes and re-balancing these a bit.
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So far, I only have real problems with 2 classes: Arcanist (which is hilariously OMGWTFBBQ broken) and Hunter (which seems rather boring and equally ineffective).
The other classes seem pretty awesome (Bloodranger is much better designed than I expected! I'm pleasantly surprised!) with a few minor problems here and there, since nothing is perfect...
But I didn't really read the Warpriest, Skald and Investigator yet, so I can't comment on them.
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I found the investigator to be way better than I expected. The Warpriest is underwhelming.
Arcanist is only Broken if one actually like the Wizard/Sorcerer/various other Vancian Caster.
Investigator is wonderful.
Warpriest... Well that is... UGH...
I wish I had chosen Investigator as my first Marathon Campaign class and not my second...
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The whole book is really meh. The classes are all pretty balanced but there is nothing interesting about them, while it was mentioned that they were going to be mash-ups of old classes, I thought they were going to do what paizo has done in the past and put a special twist on them, not just slap together class features from different classes and call it done.
This was my first impression also. Reading a little further some of them stand out as more unique but overall it just feels like two classes crammed into one. The Magus felt like I totally new class with complete new abilities. It might be to late in the design process to make large changes though.
Roshan & DeathQuaker. Get. Out. Of. My. Head...
The Magus felt like a nice mix of Wizard and Fighter but these really the only reason why I like them is they would allow for party roles to be filled easier with less players.
Investigator, Arcanist, Swashbuckler, and Brawler seem to be the ones I like so far.
Warpriest... Ugh...
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Personally, I'm a bit appalled at the number of new mechanics. Warpriest bleesing things, shaman spirits, bloodrager bloodline redefinition, blood focus points, etc. etc. Vast vast amounts of trivia attempting to be creative interpretations of straight mashups.
I don't want to be disrespectful of the effort - I see the hard work and thought that have gone into these, and the consideration for balance.
I don't think I agree with the direction. There are now quite a number of tailoring and variation features in the system - a breadth of existing core classes, archetype variations, prestige classes, and muliclassing. This proliferation of hybrid base classes feels like bloat.
I'd far rather see the core classes redesigned with cleanly 'pluggable' features, and a set of archetypes that cleanly 'hybridize' the classes from either direction - rather than magus, fighter-- w/ light spellcasting (c.f. myrmidarch, kensai), and wizard light w/ combat survivability (c.f. arcane archer, eldritch knight). There ought to be an underlying sensibility and systemization to this - visible only in the design studio. Each of the product classes and archetypes should be fully supported, fleshed out, and 'thematic'. Many of the 'pluggable' class features should be unique to the base class or archetype - ninja-only and rogue-only advanced abilities are a good example.
In the end, I'd be much happier to see this product evolve into 10 thorough, clean, and non-bloat-ey archetype variations on core classes that express hybrids of base classes.
@utopia27: Are you saying you would rather not see the Magus but rather a Fighter Archetype that adds Casting and a Wizard Archetype that adds combat abilities?
I would rather have a variety of base classes with a few alternate classes that add new options for a base class that can be combined to create unique class combos for unique characters.
Heck instead of Hybrids I would sooner see a Pathfinderized Gestalt System...
One problem that remains consistent in all classes is that they all have at least a couple class features that are needlessly complicated and/or poorly worded.
The book would greatly benefit from some revision, simplification and clean-up.
The book would greatly benefit from some revision, simplification and clean-up.
That's why this is a playtest, not the final book.
Play the classes. See how they work. See if they're easy or hard to figure out in play.
I think where it gets the most tangled is when it piggybacks new usage rules on top of existing features. Eg: Arcanist's blood focus with regard to bloodline powers.
That is the thing tripping up the Person playing it right now in our Marathon Campaign...
The book would greatly benefit from some revision, simplification and clean-up.That's why this is a playtest, not the final book.
Play the classes. See how they work. See if they're easy or hard to figure out in play.
I know. I didn't mean to belittle the book. I was just making an observation.
e.g.: I really like the Brawler, but I think some of his abilities could use better wording and simplification. Not many complaints about its mechanical side yet.
@utopia27: Are you saying you would rather not see the Magus but rather a Fighter Archetype that adds Casting and a Wizard Archetype that adds combat abilities?
I would rather have a variety of base classes with a few alternate classes that add new options for a base class that can be combined to create unique class combos for unique characters.
Heck instead of Hybrids I would sooner see a Pathfinderized Gestalt System...
Azaelas - my impulse is towards a construction system (including Gestalt - I also heard someone mention Template<Class>, though I haven't read it yet). I'm a CS/Math nerd, and my favorite non-fantasy system is Hero/Champions. I lean hard towards the lego-block kinds of systems.
I have come, over time, to recognize that our fantasy RPG systems really thrive on flavor and texture. In design and critique I'm evolving towards a lot of flavor and tightly controlled major mechanics, layered over a rigorous and predictable system of design that's visible to the designer, but not mechanically available outside the design studio. That direction seems to more reliably preserve balance, and prevent a lot of ticky-tacky 'pile-of-mechanics' classes (and thus, characters). It also creates more predictable combinations of races, feats, prestige classes, and other 'embroidering' or 'tailoring' options over time.
So... yeah. In this context, I'd prefer a continuum Fighter -> fighter/mage -> mage/fighter -> Mage, rather than a separate base class of magus. Current magus is essentially mage/fighter. Some of the archetypes from magus (and the new bloodrager) demonstrate a strong demand for a fighter/mage archetype. I'd rather see those as variations from the two bases (archetype mechanism, and to a lesser extent the 3.5 'alternate features' mechanism) really fit the bill.
I would love to get into Hero/GURPS/etc if I had someone to help teach me it. (Slightly dyslexic.) But I wasn't sure exactly what you meant. Still slightly confused.
Personally I would love a Gestalt Style system that allows you to combine the aspects of 2 classes together sort of like the Class Sync system that was in a 3.x 3pp book.
Like a Sorcerer/Wizard Gestalt would use the Arcanist's Spell setup.
the one thing i like about them using older abilities would be that there is support for those abilities (feats and such). completely new abilities have no such support, and would suffer for it until they were accommodated for--which puts a bigger workload on the devs for balancing and making material for.
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I ca understand using old abilities but they should at least add to them with something new.
A Bloodrager could use basic Rage but have its own selection of Rage Powers akin to how the Ninja & Rogue Talents interact.
but that would make sense.
but that would make sense.
I guess someone should try to talk some sense into the developers...
here's where i'd say "fat chance without lots of forum support, hard playtest data, and at least an open ear from the devs", but then the arcanist seems to be getting a well-received (mostly) makeover, so i will hold my cynicism for now.
I ca understand using old abilities but they should at least add to them with something new.
A Bloodrager could use basic Rage but have its own selection of Rage Powers akin to how the Ninja & Rogue Talents interact.
How is that not what it does? Its rage is mechanically identical to a barbarian's but you get the rage powers of your bloodline and diminished spellcasting along with it instead of barbarian ragepowers.
How is that not what it does? Its rage is mechanically identical to a barbarian's but you get the rage powers of your bloodline and diminished spellcasting along with it instead of barbarian ragepowers.I ca understand using old abilities but they should at least add to them with something new.
A Bloodrager could use basic Rage but have its own selection of Rage Powers akin to how the Ninja & Rogue Talents interact.
Because its "Bloodrage" has a different name, and thus, it is incompatible with every existing and future feat out there that references "rage".
Same thing with the not-quite-favored-enemy of the slayer, and the not-quite-domains of the warpriest.
Setting it up like this might not be entirely fair when it comes to the slayer. His ability is more like a nerfed version of the ability that the "guide" archetype gets.
Setting it up like this might not be entirely fair when it comes to the slayer. His ability is more like a nerfed version of the ability that the "guide" archetype gets.
I wouldn't call it nerfed. That depends heavily on how active your character is, how much combat you see.
The guide's ability has limited uses per day. Pretty strict ones, 1/day, another at 4th, and every 3 thereafter another. So, 7/day at level 19. It is very nice.
But so is the Favored Target being unlimited usage. Half the benefit of favored enemy, applicable to whatever enemy you want, however often you want. This is nice too. (Ie not nerfed)
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How is that not what it does? Its rage is mechanically identical to a barbarian's but you get the rage powers of your bloodline and diminished spellcasting along with it instead of barbarian ragepowers.I ca understand using old abilities but they should at least add to them with something new.
A Bloodrager could use basic Rage but have its own selection of Rage Powers akin to how the Ninja & Rogue Talents interact.
Because its "Bloodrage" has a different name, and thus, it is incompatible with every existing and future feat out there that references "rage".
Same thing with the not-quite-favored-enemy of the slayer, and the not-quite-domains of the warpriest.
Setting it up like this might not be entirely fair when it comes to the slayer. His ability is more like a nerfed version of the ability that the "guide" archetype gets.
Well that could easily be fixed by adding a "bloodrage counts as a barbarian's rage for the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes etc."
It's not like this hasn't been done before with other class features/classes.
How is that not what it does? Its rage is mechanically identical to a barbarian's but you get the rage powers of your bloodline and diminished spellcasting along with it instead of barbarian ragepowers.I ca understand using old abilities but they should at least add to them with something new.
A Bloodrager could use basic Rage but have its own selection of Rage Powers akin to how the Ninja & Rogue Talents interact.
Because its "Bloodrage" has a different name, and thus, it is incompatible with every existing and future feat out there that references "rage".
Same thing with the not-quite-favored-enemy of the slayer, and the not-quite-domains of the warpriest.
Setting it up like this might not be entirely fair when it comes to the slayer. His ability is more like a nerfed version of the ability that the "guide" archetype gets.
Well that could easily be fixed by adding a "bloodrage counts as a barbarian's rage for the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes etc."
It's not like this hasn't been done before with other class features/classes.
It very easily could, but it hasn't been. It could also very easily be fixed by not changing the name of the ability being ctrl+c/ctrl+v'ed.
Being that one ability did get the fix you spoke of, namely the Skalds rage music, I very much think it was intentionally omitted from the other classes. Why they chose to do so is beyond me though.
Yes but does it need the spells. I mean I see no synergy between the Magus list and the Bloodrager.
I mean light blasting might be good for an opening salvo but not much.
2 Spell Lists (1 4 level Arcane List of Buffs and Light Blasting and 1 6 Level Divine List of Nature Themed Buffs and Trap Spells).
1 New Spell System (that allows every class to utilize the Prepared Spells Known with Spontaneous Casting).
With some heavy tweaking:
a Bloodrager/Berzerker (Alternate Barbarian with the 4 Level Arcane List)
a Hunter/Slayer (Unique Class with the 6 Level Divine Nature List)
Investigator (Alternate Alchemist)
Swashbuckler (Alternate Gunslinger)
Skald (Alternate Bard)
Shaman (Alternate Druid)
Brawler (Alternate Monk)
The Warpriest gets divided into 2 archetypes that stack with Crusader (though not necessarily each other).
Blessing made into something akin to Domains and Inquisitions and open for any class that utilizes those features.
2 Classes dropped in favor of options made from their abilities with 2 being combined into 1. Most get more options opened up to them for the players.
How is that not what it does? Its rage is mechanically identical to a barbarian's but you get the rage powers of your bloodline and diminished spellcasting along with it instead of barbarian ragepowers.I ca understand using old abilities but they should at least add to them with something new.
A Bloodrager could use basic Rage but have its own selection of Rage Powers akin to how the Ninja & Rogue Talents interact.
Because its "Bloodrage" has a different name, and thus, it is incompatible with every existing and future feat out there that references "rage".
Same thing with the not-quite-favored-enemy of the slayer, and the not-quite-domains of the warpriest.
Setting it up like this might not be entirely fair when it comes to the slayer. His ability is more like a nerfed version of the ability that the "guide" archetype gets.
Well that could easily be fixed by adding a "bloodrage counts as a barbarian's rage for the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes etc."
It's not like this hasn't been done before with other class features/classes.
It very easily could, but it hasn't been. It could also very easily be fixed by not changing the name of the ability being ctrl+c/ctrl+v'ed.
Being that one ability did get the fix you spoke of, namely the Skalds rage music, I very much think it was intentionally omitted from the other classes. Why they chose to do so is beyond me though.
last line of the bloodrage entry on page 6 of the playtest doc.
people in the BR thread have brought up trading out fast movement and the uncanny dodges for more sorcerer-y stuff repeatedly.
I've said it in the bloodrager thread and I'll say again. The bloodrager is an archetype. An alternate class only by virtue of needing the space for the new bloodlines. It's the barbarian but it trades rage powers and trap sense with spells, the ability to cast while raging, and the bloddline.
Also I believe the bloodrager is stronger than the barbarian. Any of the bloodlines has six powers and is more powerful than any six rage powers (possible exception being the beast totem line and superstition line combined). And the bloodlines give five bonus feats on top of that.
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I think we should petition Paizo to do what they did with all their other base classes.
Dig around in the 3.5 vault pick something, sprinkle some Paizo magic and create a variation of a class that has been playtested for 8 years. With new content to the Pathfinder stable of classes powers and spells
Is anyone with me when I say the following?
Arcanist - remake the warlock (Primal Arcanist)
Bloodrager - remake Dragon shaman (Barbaric class who uses (SP) and (SU))
Brawler - remake the knight (Better choice than another unarmed fighter)
Hunter - remake the scout with an animal companion option (Skrimish hunter)
Investigator - Remake the Factotum (Jack of all trades more so than rogues)
Shaman - remake the Spirit Shaman or Totemist (Spiritual and empathic druid/oracles)
Skald - remake Marshal (Combat bard)
Slayer - Create a Bloodhound as a base class. (Bounty Hunters)
Swashbuckler - Remake the 3.5 Swashbuckler
Warpriest - Remake Shugenja (An oriental themed cleric)
----
Personal note to all writers and publishers, the hardest step is killing your ideas, and starting fresh. It may never be the easiest course of action, but sometimes it's the right one.
I agree with this whole heartedly. I wish this was how this product had been designed.Yes but does it need the spells. I mean I see no synergy between the Magus list and the Bloodrager.
I mean light blasting might be good for an opening salvo but not much.
2 Spell Lists (1 4 level Arcane List of Buffs and Light Blasting and 1 6 Level Divine List of Nature Themed Buffs and Trap Spells).
1 New Spell System (that allows every class to utilize the Prepared Spells Known with Spontaneous Casting).
With some heavy tweaking:
a Bloodrager/Berzerker (Alternate Barbarian with the 4 Level Arcane List)
a Hunter/Slayer (Unique Class with the 6 Level Divine Nature List)
Investigator (Alternate Alchemist)
Swashbuckler (Alternate Gunslinger)
Skald (Alternate Bard)
Shaman (Alternate Druid)
Brawler (Alternate Monk)
The Warpriest gets divided into 2 archetypes that stack with Crusader (though not necessarily each other).
Blessing made into something akin to Domains and Inquisitions and open for any class that utilizes those features.2 Classes dropped in favor of options made from their abilities with 2 being combined into 1. Most get more options opened up to them for the players.
You might be seeing me creating a Forum Post for my versions eventually.
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I think we should petition Paizo to do what they did with all their other base classes.
Dig around in the 3.5 vault pick something, sprinkle some Paizo magic and create a variation of a class that has been playtested for 8 years. With new content to the Pathfinder stable of classes powers and spells
Is anyone with me when I say the following?
Arcanist - remake the warlock (Primal Arcanist)
Bloodrager - remake Dragon shaman (Barbaric class who uses (SP) and (SU))
Brawler - remake the knight (Better choice than another unarmed fighter)
Hunter - remake the scout with an animal companion option (Skrimish hunter)
Investigator - Remake the Factotum (Jack of all trades more so than rogues)
Shaman - remake the Spirit Shaman or Totemist (Spiritual and empathic druid/oracles)
Skald - remake Marshal (Combat bard)
Slayer - Create a Bloodhound as a base class. (Bounty Hunters)
Swashbuckler - Remake the 3.5 Swashbuckler
Warpriest - Remake Shugenja (An oriental themed cleric)----
Personal note to all writers and publishers, the hardest step is killing your ideas, and starting fresh. It may never be the easiest course of action, but sometimes it's the right one.
[Emphasis mine]
The irony of this post and the bolded part is that you make a note to writers and publishers to consider "starting fresh" in a post where you are advocating remakes of 10 classes rather than these 10 Hybrids.
Is it bad that I wanted to quote Garviel Loken from The Horus Heresy Book Series there...
Consider it a remodeling, Look at the Advanced Players Guide.
Witches inspired by Hexblades
Alchemist inspired by Alchemists
Oracles inpired by Favored Souls
Cavaliers the KnightsSo on and so on,
I am suggesting the same not mearly a copy and paste.
except in changing things (namely abilities) to not be outright stolen, you null the whole "8 years of playtesting for it" thing, since it's not that anymore.
you'd end up with something close to the thing youre suggesting they rip off, but only in feel. the changes made to them would STILL need to be playtested to make sure the alterations didnt open up any gaping holes to the cheese dimension or close off any mundane things they SHOULD have.
I think we should petition Paizo to do what they did with all their other base classes.
Dig around in the 3.5 vault pick something, sprinkle some Paizo magic and create a variation of a class that has been playtested for 8 years. With new content to the Pathfinder stable of classes powers and spells
Is anyone with me when I say the following?
Arcanist - remake the warlock (Primal Arcanist)
Bloodrager - remake Dragon shaman (Barbaric class who uses (SP) and (SU))
Brawler - remake the knight (Better choice than another unarmed fighter)
Hunter - remake the scout with an animal companion option (Skrimish hunter)
Investigator - Remake the Factotum (Jack of all trades more so than rogues)
Shaman - remake the Spirit Shaman or Totemist (Spiritual and empathic druid/oracles)
Skald - remake Marshal (Combat bard)
Slayer - Create a Bloodhound as a base class. (Bounty Hunters)
Swashbuckler - Remake the 3.5 Swashbuckler
Warpriest - Remake Shugenja (An oriental themed cleric)----
Personal note to all writers and publishers, the hardest step is killing your ideas, and starting fresh. It may never be the easiest course of action, but sometimes it's the right one.
At this stage, it would also be the most costly and least viable option.
The playtest for these classes took months to put together. Asking Paizo to start from scratch would basically mean the company would have to toss out there Gencon release, since there is no feasible way they could start over and still do another playtest and get the books to the printer on time. In fact, even if they forgo the playtest it would be impossible. So you are basically suggesting that the company NOT have a new hardcover as a flagship product at the most important event of the year. That would cost the company prestige, money, and possibly customers, since you know they will have to deal with DnD next at the coming gencon.
On top of that...slight reflavoring of 3.5 classes would also be unappealing, as those classes currently exist and don't take much effort to convert over. And as LazarX said, there would also be issue with copyright. WotC is Paizo's biggest competitor, and don't think Hasbro doesn't monitor Paizo like a hawk looking for copyright violations.
They are not going to scrub this round of classes, so I wish people would stop asking for them to do so.
Uhm, not that I really want a total restart just something akin to a level reset... But, If an Amateur like me can build an entire class in 2 Days I think a team could do it in a Day.
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Uhm, not that I really want a total restart just something akin to a level reset... But, If an Amateur like me can build an entire class in 2 Days I think a team could do it in a Day.
I am.
Already built a Swashbuckler and a Hunter. Well the Hunter still needs the Spell List.
Any suggestions for an easy way to get a good table into a digital format that can be shared easily?
I should note that mine are more or less just versions of the Playtest Swashbuckler and a mix of the Hunter & Slayer.
Really all these classes need is some heavy tuning. Maybe an engine swap with a Tuning for a different fuel source.