Warpriest Discussion

[Shisumo]

I think the flavor for the 10th level Destruction blessing is entirely off. Why would the Destruction domain protect you from damage?

I recommend switching it with the 10th level ability from the War blessing. The flavor will make a great deal more sense that way, I think.

[Jon Otaguro 428]

The way I look at this class is this:

1) It isn't a good spell casting class. The cleric list is weaker than the inquisitor list and it only gets 6th level spells. This makes it a worse caster than the inquisitor or the cleric/shaman/oracle.

2) It fights worse than the inquisitor. It has marginally better bonuses than the cleric. It has worse bonuses than the shaman with the battle spirit (bane plus weapon specialization and greater weapon focus). A class that casts so much worse than the cleric and worse than the shaman should have combat bonuses at least equal to the inquisitor. Feats in my opinion are not enough of a boost to give the warpriest that level of combat ability. At rounds per day, the sacred weapon ability is seriously underpowered. A start at rebalancing would be to allow the warpriest sacred weapon to choose the bonus every combat, allow this ability to be used on any weapon, change the duration to 1 minute per level, and add bane to the list.

3) The feats are nice, but class abilities guide the weapon choice to diety's weapon. This is a non-optimal weapon choice for a class with martial weapons. There are no good weapon options to take advantage of the feats to be a two-weapon fighter. You are locked into Erastil if you want to be an archer. The class abilities should be decoupled from the diety's weapon.

4) The first level blessings are almost always not worth using a standard action to activate. All first level blessings should be swift action to activate. The 10th level blessings should be more powerful.

It's a pretty sad state to compare this class to the crusader cleric and come out thinking this class is worse than that cleric archtype at fighting and casting.

[magnuskn]

One thing I had hoped for the class before its publication was that it would give out its blessings to everyone, not only itself. Maybe that is an aspect which could set it apart from the Inquisitor, which mostly seems a selfish class, i.e. has no inherent buff potential (outside of maybe taking those spells on its list).

More skill points are sorely needed, though. The Cleric has the excuse of being a full caster and the Fighter has no good excuse but it's a legacy issue. The Warpriest shouldn't be constrained by that and it is darkly comical how much better the Inquisitor is in that regard.

[wraithstrike]

More skill points are needed. I would say int+4.

[Kudaku]

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of the Warpriest being able to mix martial combat and divine blessings in order to aid his allies.

I have an inquisitor player in my current group who starts off each encounter by casting the same 2-3 buffs. Those spells help out the party immensely, but the player's eyes tend to glaze over for those first three rounds. If I could show him a class that has vaguely similar flavor to the inquisitor but could combine buffing spells with full attacks he'd be all over it in a heartbeat.

[LazarX]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Good discussion folks. I think there are some interesting thoughts coming out of this thread. I agree that the class needs a little more to set it apart from its parents, and I can see a number of interesting suggestions that we might be able to use in this thread.

One note, the class may have a fair number of things to keep track of, but not much more than your average cleric that has to keep track of spells, channels, and domain abilities. I am less worried about that than I am about the top heavy nature of this class as it currently stands.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

It's also another one of those classes where it must be asked.

Does the warpriest count as his own ally?

[Matthew Trent]

LazarX wrote:

It's also another one of those classes where it must be asked.

Does the warpriest count as his own ally?

Is this really a question still?

Check the FAQ

[KhaozKnight]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

I just noticed in the Sacred Armor ability, it says to treat greater energy resistance as +5. Since Sacred Armor only lets you enhance the armor up to a maximum of +5, which I take to mean the Armor's total enhancement, both intrinsic and granted by this ability, cannot be above +5. So, there doesn't appear to be any way to actually use this to give your armor greater energy resistance.

If the armor already has an enhancement bonus of +1, you can use the +5 you get from Sacred Armor to power Special Abilities.

[Tom Sampson]

I honestly think Warpriest should have full BAB. Some extra BAB won't be broken and right now Warpriest is in an incredibly over-competed niche between the Paladin (who is a much better damage warrior), the Inquisitor (who seems to already the 6th level divine casting & fighting niche), and the Cleric himself (who gets proper full casting and domain powers, some of which can easily turn him into a fighting powerhouse).

For the most part, Warpriest feels like a nerfed Cleric. I think giving it the full BAB that the 3.5 Divine Power Clerics always run around with would give it something to really stand apart from all the others (6th level casting AND full BAB, now that's unique) while giving players a taste of some of the old 3.5 Cleric craziness, except minus the 9th level casting and domains. It's much more interesting than the sacred weapon mechanic in my opinion.

Right now, it feels like you might as well play a Cleric instead of a Warpriest because then your spell list, domains, and channel energy wont be gimp. Or an Inquisitor because then you get all those features.

[widuj]

My look at the Warpriest.

WARPRIEST – This is not a fighter-cleric-mix, this is a paladin in cool.

Skill Points: Bump it up to 4+INT.

Weapon Focus: I'm Warpriestus, Warpriest of Pharasma, and now I will kill you with my … knife. Make it Favored weapon of your God or any simple weapon, man, you are a warpriest, not a weakling of cleric, a warpriest.

Weapon Specialization: I'm considering giving him WS at level 7, GWF at level 11 and GWS at level 15, because you are a warpriest.

Blessings: Domain Powers now in the flavour of warpriest. Cool. Rearrange the Gods maybe new or better. Madness without Nethys, Water with Pharasma. Maybe I missed the memo. By the way, make the use of it on a higher level a swift action, because we want to smash things. Or make it a area effect for two uses.

BAB: Full BAB is for fighters and paladins, but you are a warpriest. And by the way, you get sacred weapon

[LoneKnave]

The divine weapons are somewhat dividing the class, so how about making it kinda like the soul knife? The warpriest grasps his holy symbol and a weapon springs forth that has generic stats (that can be later modified). He can still use and augment other weapons, but that would even out the playing field between warpriests who want to use their gods favoured weapon.

Possibly could have a "build your weapon" function like the Summoner has "build your animal companion", with weapon build points and stuff like that.

[magnuskn]

Kudaku wrote:

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of the Warpriest being able to mix martial combat and divine blessings in order to aid his allies.

I have an inquisitor player in my current group who starts off each encounter by casting the same 2-3 buffs. Those spells help out the party immensely, but the player's eyes tend to glaze over for those first three rounds. If I could show him a class that has vaguely similar flavor to the inquisitor but could combine buffing spells with full attacks he'd be all over it in a heartbeat.

Yes, that is my thought exactly. If you are going to cap spellcasting/BAB at level 6, the class better have something amazing up its sleeve to stand against the Cleric, like the Inquisitor does.

IMO, the Warpriest should be able to give out buffs as swift actions to himself and his allies, which would make him a go-to class for people who want to play a frontline cleric of war, who always had to struggle with their buffing taking up precious rounds which could be used for smashing in enemies heads.

[Redjack_rose]

I personally like the flavor of using your god's favored weapon (and have been toying around with a War-Priest of Pharasma or the Empyreal Lord Vildeis). Though it is limiting in terms of having to pick a god with 2 good blessings and a good favored weapon, it is also -suppose- to be a warrior of a God. God's don't consider if their weapons are good choices for all their follower's, the followers model after their gods.

Though it takes a hit to BAB, I'm thinking of a warpriest/knifemaster rogue hybrid. Initial looks tell me it isn't going to be anything spectacular but should at least be interesting to play (and capable).

My only real concern is the standard to activate a blessing.

^_^ hopefully play testing tomorrow, so will reply after if I do.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

After further review, this is still my favorite of the new classes. Just needs a new name. Battle Priest would denote not just in war. Just don't go with Combat Medic...

This class definitely gets too much at first level. I would like to see a reduction in proficiencies; martial weapons and heavy & medium armor. Also, grant the bonus feats at even levels.

I don't think this class should be full BAB, but I do think he should have a better chance of getting hits in. I like that the Warpriest does get the focus weapon ability (hate the name) for a weapon tied to his deity. But being tied to one weapon is kinda lame.

I like the blessings, some are pretty darn awesome. But I think more can be done with them to help create unique character options.

1) At 1st level, the class would get to choose from the following proficiencies: martial weapon, heavy armor, medium armor, and tower shield. They could select 3: 3 martial weapons, 2 weapons/medium armor, 1 weapon/medium & heavy armor, 1 weapon/medium armor/tower shield, & etc.

2) Each blessing should grant proficiency with an associated weapon.

3) Give a blessed weapon bonus at 1st level that grants a +1 to hit. The bonus would increase by every 4 levels thereafter (when the 3/4 BAB stalls progression). The bonus could be used on favored weapons, weapons granted by blessings, and weapons granted from the 1st level selection ability. The blessed weapon bonus would be added to BAB for determining feat selection for those weapons.

4) Blessings could grant unique abilities to sacred weapon/armor.

p.s. Please be sure to add an archetype that swaps the point where sacred weapon and armor are gained. Or ditch one for an improved version of the other (no weapon but better armor).

p.s.s. No fighter feat selection? Even at level -2 or -4 would be nice.

[Ainamacar]

For kicks I've taken a shot at sketching the class in a way that hopefully increases distinction from a normal cleric/fighter multiclass without totally rewriting the core features already present. It is undoubtably overpowered, but my design style is to put in cool stuff and then pare away to the essence anyway. The huge variety of possible changes suggested above also makes it tough to see how they interact. My comments are in brackets.

Main goals:
More flexibility with weapons, and a bit stronger fighter flavor.
9th level casting but heavily restricted spells per day.
Full BAB or very close
"Spell combat"-like feature
More cohesive resource management
Less front-loaded
Let domains and blessings be complementary

Hit dice: d8
BAB: Full
Proficiencies: Simple and martial weapons, plus deity's favored weapons. All armor and shields, except tower shields.
Skills: 2+Int

1. Aura, Domains, Orisons, Weapon Homage
2. Channel energy 1d6, Flexible Homage, Focus Weapon
3. Bonus Feat, Sacred arms and armor +1
4. Spell combat
5. Channel energy 2d6
6. Bonus feat
7. Sacred arms and armor +2
8. Channel energy 3d6
9. Bonus feat
10. Spell combat
11. Channel energy 4d6, Sacred arms and armor +3
12. Bonus feat
13. Group Homage
14. Channel energy 5d6
15. Bonus feat, Sacred arms and armor +4
16. Spell combat
17. Channel energy 6d6
18. Bonus feat
19. Sacred boost, Sacred arms and armor +5
20. Aspect of War, Channel energy 7d6

Spells per day
    1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9
1   1
2   1
3   1   1
4   2   1
5   2   1   1
6   2   2   1
7   2   2   1   1
8   2   2   2   1
9   2   2   2   1   1
10  2   2   2   2   1
11  2   2   2   2   1   1
12  2   2   2   2   2   1
13  2   2   2   2   2   1   1
14  3   2   2   2   2   2   1
15  3   2   2   2   2   2   1   1
16  3   3   2   2   2   2   2   1
17  3   3   2   2   2   2   2   1   1
18  3   3   3   2   2   2   2   2   1
19  3   3   3   2   2   2   2   2   2
20  3   3   3   3   2   2   2   2   2

Spellcasting: Prepared caster that uses the cleric spell list. Domain spells are added to class spell list.
[Once bonus spells are factored in this gives about half as many spells per day as a cleric of the same level. Somewhere between 1 slot of every level at 20th and the above progression I feel there should be a sweet spot between spells per day and the power of even a handful 7th-9th level spells compared to classes that progress to 6th level spells.]

Spontaneous casting: May spontaneously cast cure *and* inflict spells. May spontaneously cast domain spells.
[Being able to spontaneously cast cure and inflict spells means warpriests always have the basic tools of hurting or helping at hand, regardless of deity. I like spontaneous casting of domain spells given so few spell slots. It also enhances the difference between warpriests.]

Aura: As normal for a divine caster

Domains: Choose 1 (or 2?) domains. When gaining domain powers may choose to take the initial one from the domain or the corresponding minor blessing. Later, may choose the higher-level domain power or major blessing. [I might write the blessings to be a bit more like subdomains, but keeping the more martial focus.]

Orisons: As normal for a cleric, more-or-less.

Weapon Homage: Select a weapon besides your deity's favored weapon with which you are proficient. This is your homage weapon. Whenever you gain an ability that lets you choose what kind of weapon to apply it to (such as Weapon Focus), you must select your deity's favored weapon or the homage weapon. As long as you have your deity's favored weapon on your person abilities that apply to one of these weapons also applies to the other, unless the ability cannot be used with that type of weapon for some other reason. (For example, if your deity's favored weapon is the hammer and your homage weapon is the longsword, an ability that applies to blunt weapons cannot be applied to the longsword.)
[Lets warpriests be more flexible with the weapons they use. Also means two different types of weapons could gain benefits. So a character could dual wield different types, or balance between melee and ranged, but gain some of the same boosts to both. Warpriests without a deity make no distinction between favored weapon and homage weapon, so they can be good with any single weapon they choose, but not two. The flavor is about showing proper reverence for the deity's actual favored weapon, and thus getting special dispensation to use something else as though it were favored. Some builds might dip this for the flexibility to apply weapon focus, etc. to multiple things, but the marginal power gain strikes me as moderate compared to something like a non-specific bonus combat feat.]

Channel Energy: Usable 3+Con times per day, with number of dice reduced compared to cleric. May channel both positive and negative energy, although not both at the same time. Otherwise as cleric.
[Con seems plausible for a Warpriest, and reduces MAD a bit. Channeling both positive and negative again allows a bit more flexibility to hurt or heal compared to a cleric.]

Flexible Homage: You may spend 5 minutes performing a ritual with a weapon you hold and with which you are proficient by expending one use of your channel energy ability. For the next 24 hours you treat this particular weapon as an homage weapon. If you perform this ritual with the same weapon every day for a week you may permanently change your homage weapon to weapons of this type. If you have feats that depend on the old type of homage weapon you may choose to change them to affect the new type of weapon or your deity's favored weapon, assuming the new weapon otherwise meets their requirements, but completing the ritual requires an additional week per feat/ability that must be changed.
[Over the long-term, you can be good with whatever weapon you want. Over the short-term it has a minor cost.]

Focus Weapon: You gain Weapon Focus in your deity's favored weapon or your homage weapon.

Bonus Feats: At level 3 and every 3 levels thereafter. Selected from Combat Feats, etc. Qualify for feats that have Fighter as a prerequisite using warpriest level - 2.
[That might not be the best way to qualify for Fighter-only feats, but for a class that is specifically a fighter-hybrid, I think it needs it in some way.]

Sacred arms and armor: As a swift or standard action you may spend a use of channel energy and sacrifice a spell slot to apply an enhancement bonus (or equivalent special ability) to weapons and or armor equal to spell level, but at most +1 to either. If you activate this as a standard action the ability lasts a number of minutes equal to the number of dice you channel energy with. If you activate it as a swift action it lasts a number of rounds equal to the number of dice you channel energy with. While this ability is active you may expend spell slots as a swift action without spending a use of channel energy to change how your weapons and armor is modified. The number of points of abilities you may change is equal to the level of the expended spell, although no greater than the level of the spell originally expended when activating this ability. Changing weapon and armor abilities in this way does not modify the ability's duration. The maximum enhancement bonus (or equivalent) you can provide increases every 4 levels. Otherwise works as given in playtest version.
[I'm not sold on this ability in the first place, but I like this version of it a bit more. It can last rounds or minutes, and it ties together channel energy and spells, both of which are limited resources. Being able to spend another spell to make some minor changes to the "load-out" of bonuses without actually needing to reactivate it from scratch is gravy.]

Spell Combat: You may attempt a special attack as a standard action. If the attack is successful a spell is cast, otherwise nothing happens. Each time you successfully cast a spell using this ability reduce the number of channel energy dice you have by 1. If you have not used this ability for 1 minute the number of channel energy dice returns to its normal value. Select one type of spell to use with this ability each time you take it (levels 4, 10, and 16). Spell combat may only be attempted once per round.

Spell Combat abilities (Level 4, 10, or 16)
Cure and Inflict spells (Can affect target or you, and others as well once the Mass Cure/Inflict spells kick in.)
Touch and Ranged touch spells (Affects only target.)
Personal and Touch spells (Affects only you.)

Spell Combat abilities (Level 10 or 16)
Improved touch and ranged touch spells (Requires initial version. Spell applies if attack misses but hits touch AC.)
Critical hit (Requires any level 4 ability. Use Spell Combat as an immediate action on critical hit.)
Simultaneous cure and inflict (Requires initial version. Expend a single spell slot but get both effects.)
[This is obviously not a complete version of Spell Combat rules, but along the lines I think might be appropriate for a warpriest. It connects spells to Channel Energy, but in a different way than Sacred Arms and Armor so that we don't put too much pressure on the daily uses of Channel Energy. Instead, one can use this ability many times in combat and through-out the day, but degrades the strength of channel energy, and indirectly the duration of new activations of Sacred Arms and Armor, while doing it. I'm trying to keep book-keeping low by having Channel Energy dice reset 1 minute after last use of this ability.]

Group Homage: Select a fighter weapon group to which your homage weapon belongs. All weapons in that group gain the benefits of weapon homage. If you change your homage weapon with flexible homage you may select a new fighter weapon group when the ritual completes. Furthermore, you gain a +1 bonus to attacks, damage, and combat maneuver checks using your deity's favored weapon and your homage weapons.
[Fighter flavor, small (probably unnecessary) boost, and even more flexibility with weapon choices.]

Sacred boost: For the purposes of Sacred Arms and Armor, treat the level of all spells you expend as 1 greater than their actual level.
[Basically so you can get +5 with both weapons and armor using a 9th-level spell. But also handy for getting the Holy special ability by expending a lowly 1st level spell.]

Aspect of War: Every weapon with which you are proficient, other than your deity's favored weapon, is an homage weapon. Whenever you cast a spell you gain damage reduction and a bonus to weapon damage rolls equal to the spell's level until the end of your next turn. You can use Spell Combat to cast a spell as part of a full attack (but still cannot use Spell Combat more than once per round).
[I didn't care for the first version of Aspect of War. This version has ultimate weapon flexibility, provides all spell-casting a martial benefit, and has what I think is a fitting capstone to Spell Combat.]

---

I hope everyone is able to find some interesting things above, despite the rough presentation.

[Neo2151]

So I pull this partial quote from another thread because I think it is extremely relevant to this particular class:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

While some of the classes might not be "there" yet in terms of their mechanics and expressions, I think many of them do represent an interesting conceptual niche for us to explore.

My problem with Warpriest (so far) is that I cannot offer the kind of testing feedback that you're looking for because I have no idea what "interesting conceptual niche" this class seeks to provide the game.

Could you possibly give that question some thought?

Currently, a Cleric is already very capable at fighting on the front line as a "war priest" of sorts, based simply on the spells (and to a lesser extent, domains) said Cleric chooses; Ditto, the Oracle.
Furthermore, the Inquisitor is even more powerful for "Divine Combat" than the Cleric is, and already fills the niche that you were looking for this class to fill.

I think if the class went for a "deity-specific Paladin" style, then you'd be onto something - A more martial, less inquisitive, version of the Inquisitor. However, we're past the point of playtesting where that is an option, so I don't really know what suggestions to offer this class.

=(

[TheFez]

Tom Sampson wrote:

Right now, it feels like you might as well play a Cleric instead of a Warpriest because then your spell list, domains, and channel energy wont be gimp. Or an Inquisitor because then you get all those features.

Agreed. The space they're trying to wedge Warpriest into is crowded. If they made it a not-necessarily-holy-not-necessarily-LG Paladin class, though - that's a wide open area to explore. Heck make LG and CE off limits to the Warpriest so no toes are stepped on, if you must.

Neo2151 wrote:

I think if the class went for a "deity-specific Paladin" style, then you'd be onto something - A more martial, less inquisitive, version of the Inquisitor.

I'll second that.

[redliska]

Blessings are cool much more interesting than domain powers. I will add my voice to those expressing concern that the Warpriest is in a crowded field already. There is an abundance of 3/4th BAB 6th level spell casting classes. I wouldn't mind a more paladin oriented class (Full BAB and 4th level spells) without the alignment baggage, That way Asmodeus or Cayden Cailean could have something similar.

[Helaman]

TheFez wrote:

Tom Sampson wrote:

Right now, it feels like you might as well play a Cleric instead of a Warpriest because then your spell list, domains, and channel energy wont be gimp. Or an Inquisitor because then you get all those features.

Agreed. The space they're trying to wedge Warpriest into is crowded. If they made it a not-necessarily-holy-not-necessarily-LG Paladin class, though - that's a wide open area to explore. Heck make LG and CE off limits to the Warpriest so no toes are stepped on, if you must.

Neo2151 wrote:

I think if the class went for a "deity-specific Paladin" style, then you'd be onto something - A more martial, less inquisitive, version of the Inquisitor.

I'll second that.

Thirded.

[Dragon78]

Personally no classes should have less then 4+int skill points so I would say that anywhere I see the dreaded 2+int.

Well I am glad I am not the only one who wants it more combat related.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I just want more synergy, and less paperwork. So many standard actions for really short effects!

Also, list of things to keep track of:

Spells
Channeling
Sacred Weapon rounds/day
Sacred armor rounds/day
Minor blessings
Major blessings

All of these are a different number. While clerics DO have a lot of stuff to keep track of too, it's just spells, channeling, and two domains. That is my argument for some sort of Faith Pool.

[Dragon78]

I have no problem keeping track of any of that stuff.

[LoneKnave]

Problems with the class imo:
-The basic 9 lvl divine caster already has 3/4BAB, medium armor, and no spell failure chance.
-Fighters abilities don't mesh as well. This'd work better as a Divine Fist.

[DM Beckett]

So, what if the changed the class features so that they worked with any weapon the Warpriest had both prof with and Weapon Focus for? Only the Favored Weapon would be automatic, but if they wanted to use another, just take Weapon Focus for it, something they might have done anyway.

[Warpriest]

This class is pretty easily fixed.

Remove Channeling (but keep spont healing, so he feels like a priest)

give it 'SWIFT Miracles' basically a modded spellstrike. When he Hits a foe he can as a swift action, cast any spell with a target of ýou' or 'self only'.

he can do this at level 4.

Done.

BTW if any of the editor's want to compare my Avatars
Grimm Sharpest- 6th level inquisitor (witchunter)

Warpriest- 6th level warpriest

you will see Grimm does more damage, has better skills, better saves, a more versatile and damaging spellist.

Warpriest is +2 AC....
Channel is crap for the level
less skills.
Free Feats vs Solo Tactics is a wash.

[Dragon78]

Give him lay on hands instead of channeling

keep enhancement bonus/special abilities with deities' favored weapon.

fighter HP/attack bonus.

keep domain abilities.

some bonus combat feats.

spellcasting 4th level.

some spell-like abilities for more powerful spells like heal or hero's feat.

Immunities based on domain like charm for charm domain, confusion for madness, petrification for earth, etc.

[ciretose]

I would like to see a lot more done with the deities favored weapon. I think this is the core of the class.

Perhaps even some specific abilities given to specific weapons, for example thrown weapons getting the returning quality for free at some point, light weapons gaining the speed ability, etc...I would love to see it be God specific (Saranae's flaming scimitar for example) but I understand that would take way to much space.

I think the niche for this class is the war priest being the "hand" of the god, and the weapon being...well...the weapon of the god. So put the power into the weapon even more than we've seen so far.

Hell, I'd go so far as to give them full BaB with the favored weapon, only.

This type of add on could also address the "to much early, not enough late" issue.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

What if we took away heavy armor proficiency, but gave it later on, kinda like what the magus does? I hate comparing it to the magus, but it just kind of happens. The Sacred Armor is really good, and I think should be kept duration-wise, but Sacred Weapon... The magus can do the same thing, for one minute at a time, more times per day, but it competes with his other stuff.

[DM Beckett]

I wonder if it might not be better to reduce the number of Blessings, and not tie them to Domains at all or specific Deities directly, and instead maybe only offer one to the Warpriest and offer more features to each one. That could really cut down on page space, and might allow ways to gain specific bonus feats that they do not qualify for normally.

For example, the Blessing of "champion of arms" might allow you to pick any one weapon you want in addition to Favored Weapon that can be used with all Class Features, and allows the Weapon Focus/Specialization feats as Bonus Feats, and a few custom spells.

[magnuskn]

Neo2151 wrote:

So I pull this partial quote from another thread because I think it is extremely relevant to this particular class:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

While some of the classes might not be "there" yet in terms of their mechanics and expressions, I think many of them do represent an interesting conceptual niche for us to explore.

My problem with Warpriest (so far) is that I cannot offer the kind of testing feedback that you're looking for because I have no idea what "interesting conceptual niche" this class seeks to provide the game.

Could you possibly give that question some thought?

Yes, please. An explanation what niche this class is supposed to fill (especially in comparison to the Cleric, Inquisitor and Paladin) would be highly appreciated, because so far most people seem bewildered by that and the obvious inferiority of this class compared to the Inquisitor (which already occupies the exact gamespace it seems to be geared for).

[Prethen]

My apologies for what may seem to be a very dumb question. But, there seems to be a certain amount of grief over the Warpriest's weapon proficiency still. Plus, they're now proficient in their deity's weapon. I don't understand what exactly is missing from the Warpriest's weapon abilities other than exotics possibly. Can someone fill me in on what I'm probably not seeing?

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

The complaint is that some favored weapons are not very war-like, and less effective than others.

[Coridan]

Coridan's thoughts on the Warpriest:

Now I come to the last class, and sorry Paizo, the worst. i know you say cutting or replacing a class is out of the question but if there is one exception this is it. I feel this class is not only bad on its own, it will actually be detrimental to the health of the game.

Firstly, this is a niche that is already crowded by several PrCs and two base classes. In fact, the Cleric is so good at being a figthter/cleric you had to tone it down from 3.5 to PF. Mostly though this class really treads on the Paladin's toes.

There is design space though for a cleric hybrid, just not with the fighter. How about instead a Cleric/Monk with ki healing abilities, the two classes multiclass pretty nicely already since they both love wisdom and being able to not lose unarmed progression would rock.

Or cleric/wizard. A d6 1/2 BAB robed cleric with a prayer book, scribe scroll, lay hands/mercy and hell even blessings. Both would be positive additions to the game. Warpriest is a negative one.

Even if you disregard my pleas to completely redo this class, at LEAST change the name to Templar or something. Warpriest is a kind of goofy name.

[Prethen]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

The complaint is that some favored weapons are not very war-like, and less effective than others.

I'm still a little confused. They can choose from any martial weapon to be proficient in. Is the problem that they can't choose any exotic also?

[master_marshmallow]

Prethen wrote:

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

The complaint is that some favored weapons are not very war-like, and less effective than others.

I'm still a little confused. They can choose from any martial weapon to be proficient in. Is the problem that they can't choose any exotic also?

The problem is they want to choose where they put their free weapon focus, rather than be forced to have it on useless weapon because of their deity choice.

[DM Beckett]

No its that the Sacred Weapon only works for the Focus Weapon (the Deity's Favored Weapon) and people feel that detracts from having the option of all MWPs. Or worse when the weapon is not great like Light Crossbow or Dagger.

My suggestion is to allow it for any weapon that you take Weapon Focus for and are proficient.

[Prethen]

master_marshmallow wrote:

Prethen wrote:

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

The complaint is that some favored weapons are not very war-like, and less effective than others.

I'm still a little confused. They can choose from any martial weapon to be proficient in. Is the problem that they can't choose any exotic also?

The problem is they want to choose where they put their free weapon focus, rather than be forced to have it on useless weapon because of their deity choice.

Okay...I get the issue now.

[ciretose]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

The complaint is that some favored weapons are not very war-like, and less effective than others.

And this is where in an ideal world there would be specific bonuses. But I doubt that is going to happen given the space.

Some deities will have better war priests weapons than others, but if the bonuses to the weapons are more substantial, I think that is ok.

I would also suggest that the Warpriests weapon be a divine focus, perhaps even given something similar to arcane bond (perhaps divine bond) without the penalties.

[Robert Little]

One thing I would kind of like to see is an increase in the number of channels per day (not the potency, just the frequency). I think one of the things about the warpriest in any of its incarnations is that it is likely going to be dependent on Channel Smite / Guided Hand - if that is the case, that should be embedded in the class as part of its features - make it the special part of the class.

Increase channels to 3 + Charisma modifier +1 per 3 warpriest levels.

Give it a modified channel smite that lets it apply its channel damage to all of its attacks for one round, rather than just a single attack.

Give it a modified channel smite that lets it apply its damage thru the favored weapon, regardless of whether it is melee or ranged.

Give an option to allow the smite to affect any foe at less effectiveness (maybe roll d4's instead of d6's when not targetting undead).

With these modifications, a warpriest wouldn't necessarily need to be as MAD (Strength would become less important)and he could still put out decent damage when he wanted to. The damage from the smite would be less than an equal level rogues sneak attack, but would also be less situational. And tying it to the favored weapon can help overcome weaknesses of certain weapons.

Other asides: Right now, sacred weapon / armor would be the first abilities I would try to replace with an archetype. They are fiddly and not at all appealing to me (weapon moreso than armor).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Yeah, I think channel should be a bigger point to the Warpriest. What if Sacred Weapon and Sacred Armor were tied into Channel?

[ciretose]

Ninjaxenomorph wrote:

Yeah, I think channel should be a bigger point to the Warpriest. What if Sacred Weapon and Sacred Armor were tied into Channel?

I would be ok with a modified channel more catered to the warpriest, possibly the original channel mechanics prior to the cleric nerf?

[Flamdring]

I would just add, "can expend 1 or more channel attempts as part of casting his spells. Doing so reduces the casting time of the spell by one step." ex. Summon monster 1: 1 round action + 1 channel = full round action or +2 channels = standard action or +3 channels = move action or +4 channels = swift action. Add in some errata like "the warpriest can effect spell up to the highest level he can cast -1. In addition spells affected this way cannot be modified by meta magic feats and this ability cannot be used to cast more than one spell per round."

This is just a quick mock-up as I'm at work and typing on my phone.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Here is what I would do as an example:

Channel-Sourced Sacred Weapon:

Sacred Weapon (Su): At 4th level, the warpriest gains the ability to imbue his focus weapon with divine power. As a swift action, the warpriest can expend a use of his Channel Energy class feature to enhance a weapon of the same type as the weapon selected for the focus weapon class feature for a number of rounds equal to his warpriest level. This power grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every four levels beyond 4th, this bonus increases by +1 to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses stack with any existing bonuses the weapon might have, to a maximum of +5. The warpriest can imbue a weapon with any of the following weapon properties: brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, frost, keen, and shock. In addition, if the warpriest is chaotic, he can add anarchic and vicious. If he is evil, he can add mighty cleaving and unholy. If he is good, he can add holy and merciful. If he is lawful, he can add axiomatic and ghost touch. Adding any of these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the properties base cost (see Table 15–9 of the Core Rulebook). Duplicate abilities do not stack. The weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus before any other properties can be added, whether normally from itself or granted by this ability. The enhancement bonus and properties are determined the first time the ability is used each day, and cannot be changed until the ability is used again the next day. These bonuses only apply while the warpriest is holding the weapon, and end immediately if the weapon is sheathed or leaves the warpriest’s possession. If the warpriest uses this ability on a double weapon, the effects only apply to one end of it.

And, as a bonus, its shorter! Wow, didn't notice that you can't swap out abilities like a magus can when he enhances his weapon.

[LazarX]

Matthew Trent wrote:

LazarX wrote:

It's also another one of those classes where it must be asked.

Does the warpriest count as his own ally?

Is this really a question still?

Check the FAQ

That question was answered for bardic abilities which used different language.

So it's a new question for these classes.

[LazarX]

master_marshmallow wrote:

Prethen wrote:

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

The complaint is that some favored weapons are not very war-like, and less effective than others.

I'm still a little confused. They can choose from any martial weapon to be proficient in. Is the problem that they can't choose any exotic also?

The problem is they want to choose where they put their free weapon focus, rather than be forced to have it on useless weapon because of their deity choice.

The problem really is the narrowmindedness of many of the posters. On the other hand, someone else showed a very clever build with Pharasma's choice of dagger.

If you really must have a big honking weapon for your warpriest... choose a more warlike diety. Or if you want a dainty diety with a big weapon, go with Shelyn and her glaive.

[Jarred]

Right now it feels like the Warpriest is lost... He doesn't know if he's a bad Cleric or a Bad Fighter. In any situation where he has allot of time to buff he'll shine. Outside of that he's just going to be sub par. Choose role for him... either make him a party buffer... or make him a fighter type.

I definitely feel like there is a problem with the channeling... The paladin, Cleric and Oracle are all better at channeling then the War priest. Either make the channeling on par with every other base class channeler in the Game or take the Channeling away completely and give the Warpriest a more focused identity as a front line fighter.

Some ideas... mostly stolen from others above...

A. Increase hit Die and Base attack to better reflect fighter....

B. Give the ability to, a limited number of times per day, cast self buff spells as swift actions. There are so many good self buffs that clerics never use because fights last such a short amount of time and the casting of self buffs just isn't economical.

C. Make the Blessings always in effect or at least quicker to cast when the warpriest targets himself.

I kind of like the idea of a fighter type who has an overabundance of self buffs that he can cast as swift actions. He doesn't start the fight strong but ramps up bigger and bigger the longer he fights as more of the power of his god channels into him.

If you do decide he should be a party buffer then the sacred armor and weapon abilities fail to make as much sense. I say drop them and replace them with a stronger channel and some added abilities gained by allies when healed by your channel. Hey look, anyone I heal gains a sacred bonus to ac, or attack, or saves.

[ciretose]

LazarX wrote:

The problem really is the narrowmindedness of many of the posters. On the other hand, someone else showed a very clever build with Pharasma's choice of dagger.

If you really must have a big honking weapon for your warpriest... choose a more warlike diety. Or if you want a dainty diety with a big weapon, go with Shelyn and her glaive.

I agree with this. I would like to see more emphasis on the specialization with your deities favored weapon, not less.

I really like the flavor, and I think it is a way to separate the class out into it's own niche.

You are literally the sword/glaive/dagger/bow/etc/... of your god.

I like that concept a great deal.

[Rory]

The Grayflame weapon ability gives a nice basis for how to turn Channel Energy into a buff for a weapon. Just update it to last for WIS + 1/2 level (min 1) rounds and remove the melee weapon only restriction.

I'm all for putting Channel Energy, Sacred Weapon, and Sacred Armor into the same resource bucket. I think that 2+ WIS + 1/2 level "Divine Energy" counters per day, split amongst those three powers, is a wonderful base mechanic for the class. That gives the player the versatility to focus on healing, offense, or defense as the group needs or per player preference.

*******************************************

Grayflame

Price +1 bonus; Aura moderate transmutation; CL 6th; Weight —

This weapon responds to channeled positive and negative energy. When the wielder spends a swift action to channel energy through the weapon, it ignites with a strange gray flame that sheds light as a torch, increases the weapon's enhancement bonus by +1, and deals +1d6 damage (as the divine power from flame strike) to creatures struck by the weapon. This flame lasts for 1 round for every d6 of damage or healing the channeling normally provides. When charged with positive energy, the flame is a silvery gray, good creatures are immune to the weapon's extra damage, and the weapon counts as a good and silver weapon for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. When charged with negative energy, the flame is an ashen gray, evil creatures are immune to the weapon's extra damage, and the weapon counts as an evil and cold iron weapon for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons.

[Unklbuck]

My 2 cents
1 - Have Warpriest levels count as Fighter levels for feats such as Wpn Spec, etc
2 - Have them chose a Weapon at first level for Weapon focus and that type of Weapon becomes their choice of Weapon for their powers.
3 - Eliminate Channeling. With the above two changes and lessening the need for Charisma by eliminating channeling the class become more...martially

[Flintheart Glomgold]

This class is a bit underwhelming. It honestly seems like it is trying to do to many thing at once and is not very good at any of them. I would honestly suggest dropping channeling from the class altogether if it is not going to have the normal progression that clerics have in order to make its other abilities a tad more powerful/better.

Either give it Full BAB or Feats at the same rate as a fighter or give it full Channeling progression and give up nothing as it stands it really isn't that great at being a "battle cleric" Another idea that occurs to me is give each blessing a static ability or bonus associated with it in addition to the use per day powers that they give.

Also I would take a look at the types of bonus's granted by blessings and make sure they are not redundant with the enhancement bonus granted from sacred weapon and armor, only because I noticed at least one instance in the strength domain where this would be the case.