Nothing about favoriting it in combat though.Abadar
"As meters of justice, each priest traditionally carries a single golden-headed crossbow bolt for when a criminal must be executed. This bolt goes to the dead criminal’s family as compensation for the loss and a means to make an honest living."
Needed to type that one. Need to find the Erastil book next.
They just favor it for hanging out at bars.
Are you honestly going to argue that the favored weapon is not actually favored?
Really?
Your quoted text on Pharasma seemed to be a good point against you. The fact that they wouldn't use it to fight is quite telling that Favored Weapons have no place in the Warpriest's portfolio.
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In some cases, that makes sense, glaives and Shelyn being a good example. But Pharasma? Can you honestly claim with a straight face that the text you quoted suggests that Pharasma would favor her Warpriests fighting with daggers?
What part of the word "favored" is unclear?
"Pharasma is neutral and her portfolio is fate, death, prophecy, and birth. Her weapon is the skane, a special dagger with ritual significance."
So far I was accused of cherry picking a weapon someone else named. Then I was given three actually cherry picked gods and showed the information on all three, two of which you can't really argue.
There is a difference between a priest and a war priest. I'm not saying they would all have daggers at the weapon they choose. I am saying it is the favored weapon of the deity and apparently all priests carry one.
At this point some people seem more interested in arguing about what they wish I was saying than trying to refute what I am saying.
1. Deities have favored weapons
2. Having the weapon favored by the deity have an advantage over other weapons is both good flavor and good setting logic.
3. I'm fine with a feat that lets you select another weapon instead.
4. If you don't give due favor to the favored weapons, seeing someone actually using a favored weapon as a war priest (the central special thing about the class) will be no more common than seeing a cleric of the deity use one.
It isn't a problem for a cleric to carry a starknife and never use it, since they are a caster class.
A warpriest isn't. They will be using the weapon.
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Okay, so all of the gods have domains. They're central to a god's flavor, but they also allow for a diversity of player choice. So, if the devs are looking at making favored weapons central to this class, my suggestion would be to expand the notion of favored weapons (which, save a couple of notable exceptions, seems fairly arbitrary and unflavorful anyways) by tying them into domains(or blessings as the case may be).
Essentially, each blessing would have a "favored" weapon. Air might be the longbow, for instance. Earth, a warhammer. The warpriest's sacred weapon would key off of the blessing choice. This would allow for greater player choice, while still keeping the selection limited to weapons that are flavorful for the deity worshiped. It would have the added bonus of thematically tying weapon choice and other abilities conveyed by the deity's blessing together.
To be clear, I would still rather see this sort of specialized interest in a favored weapon take the form of an archetype or feat, but if this is the way the devs wish to go with the base class, would this be a workable compromise?
Erastil's entry isn't as specific, it says all of his followers are proficient in bows. But his holy symbol is a bow made out of antlers so...you know....kind of central.Erastil is so much more badass now that I know his favored weapon is a moose.
Hmm... How to wield a moose... I mean, I'll have to crank my strength pretty high, but I bet they'll never see it coming. A man wielding a moose by its antlers swinging it in circles screaming a battle cry "For Erastil!"
Oddly enough, Erastil would be one of the people I expect to give favor to bows most because I see push for it. There's even an Erastil trait that gives you proficiency with the thing. What sucks is that pharasma is expected to use a dagger in combat because rituals... despite having a whole gig against undead.
For Gorum
"Given that his favored weapon is the greatsword, the use of shields is less common than in other martial faiths"
That isn't really a reason to use a greatsword, or at least doesn't explain why its his favored... Just... Use it just because its his favored weapon? Sounds a bit circular.
Before i hit the hay, i just want to say that maybe, MAYBE, i wouldn't be so hung up on sacred weapon if this class was full BAB. Otherwise, this class is just stunted if its stuck having to use a dagger or starknife as its weapon to keep up with the fighter.
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The Lawgiver is the herald of Abadar, a massive living construct of gold and steel. Restricting any communication to quotes from the holy texts of its master, much about this being and its existence remain unknown
Appearance
Standing fully 25 feet tall, the Lawgiver appears as an imposing humanoid knight in ornate armor. The herald of Abadar is flawless in physical design, and appears as a statue as long as it remains unmoving. It carries with it an equally ornate hammer, the Gavel of Abadar, which appears too massive to be held
Heralds are Warpriests?
If so, I guess he took a feat.
So in your mind, the standard I have to meet is all the time, the standard you have to meet is one person.
I cited something saying basically every priest of Abadar carries a crossbow.
But the herald uses a hammer. Chewbacca defense FTW...
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Before i hit the hay, i just want to say that maybe, MAYBE, i wouldn't be so hung up on sacred weapon if this class was full BAB. Otherwise, this class is just stunted if its stuck having to use a dagger or starknife as its weapon to keep up with the fighter.
Or take a feat...or use the 6 levels of spells...
Okay, so all of the gods have domains. They're central to a god's flavor, but they also allow for a diversity of player choice. So, if the devs are looking at making favored weapons central to this class, my suggestion would be to expand the notion of favored weapons (which, save a couple of notable exceptions, seems fairly arbitrary and unflavorful anyways) by tying them into domains(or blessings as the case may be).
Essentially, each blessing would have a "favored" weapon. Air might be the longbow, for instance. Earth, a warhammer. The warpriest's sacred weapon would key off of the blessing choice. This would allow for greater player choice, while still keeping the selection limited to weapons that are flavorful for the deity worshiped. It would have the added bonus of thematically tying weapon choice and other abilities conveyed by the deity's blessing together.
To be clear, I would still rather see this sort of specialized interest in a favored weapon take the form of an archetype or feat, but if this is the way the devs wish to go with the base class, would this be a workable compromise?
That is actually a pretty good idea.
Will it find traction in this thread at the moment? Probably not, but it gets my vote as a good compromise.|
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That isn't really a reason to use a greatsword, or at least doesn't explain why its his favored... Just... Use it just because its his favored weapon? Sounds a bit circular.For Gorum
"Given that his favored weapon is the greatsword, the use of shields is less common than in other martial faiths"
Please tell me you are kidding.
It says his follower use shields less often because the favored weapon is a greatsword and you say that is circular logic?
Seriously, tell me you are joking.
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In some cases, that makes sense, glaives and Shelyn being a good example. But Pharasma? Can you honestly claim with a straight face that the text you quoted suggests that Pharasma would favor her Warpriests fighting with daggers?
What part of the word "favored" is unclear?
The part about what it's favored for. The text you quoted is extremely explicit that the reasons for Pharasma favoring the dagger have nothing to do with combat. It even specifies that many priests refuse to fight with it and use a different weapon.
And for some reason you still think "favored" means "Fight with this weapon and I will imbue your strikes with my holy power. Fight with anything else, and I will not".
I'm not invested in this argument enough to fight it any further, and I'm pretty sure I've made my point thoroughly enough that the devs will understand where I'm coming from, even if they don't agree. I'm going to stop posting in this thread until I have some playtest information and can contribute beyond the weapon debate.
Okay, so all of the gods have domains. They're central to a god's flavor, but they also allow for a diversity of player choice. So, if the devs are looking at making favored weapons central to this class, my suggestion would be to expand the notion of favored weapons (which, save a couple of notable exceptions, seems fairly arbitrary and unflavorful anyways) by tying them into domains(or blessings as the case may be).
Essentially, each blessing would have a "favored" weapon. Air might be the longbow, for instance. Earth, a warhammer. The warpriest's sacred weapon would key off of the blessing choice. This would allow for greater player choice, while still keeping the selection limited to weapons that are flavorful for the deity worshiped. It would have the added bonus of thematically tying weapon choice and other abilities conveyed by the deity's blessing together.
To be clear, I would still rather see this sort of specialized interest in a favored weapon take the form of an archetype or feat, but if this is the way the devs wish to go with the base class, would this be a workable compromise?
I know this is breaking the promise I just made, but.... +1. This is exactly what I want.
Okay, so all of the gods have domains. They're central to a god's flavor, but they also allow for a diversity of player choice. So, if the devs are looking at making favored weapons central to this class, my suggestion would be to expand the notion of favored weapons (which, save a couple of notable exceptions, seems fairly arbitrary and unflavorful anyways) by tying them into domains(or blessings as the case may be).
Essentially, each blessing would have a "favored" weapon. Air might be the longbow, for instance. Earth, a warhammer. The warpriest's sacred weapon would key off of the blessing choice. This would allow for greater player choice, while still keeping the selection limited to weapons that are flavorful for the deity worshiped. It would have the added bonus of thematically tying weapon choice and other abilities conveyed by the deity's blessing together.
To be clear, I would still rather see this sort of specialized interest in a favored weapon take the form of an archetype or feat, but if this is the way the devs wish to go with the base class, would this be a workable compromise?
+1 i second this idea
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That isn't really a reason to use a greatsword, or at least doesn't explain why its his favored... Just... Use it just because its his favored weapon? Sounds a bit circular.For Gorum
"Given that his favored weapon is the greatsword, the use of shields is less common than in other martial faiths"
Please tell me you are kidding.
It says his follower use shields less often because the favored weapon is a greatsword and you say that is circular logic?
Seriously, tell me you are joking.
Are you seriously telling me the reason its his favored is because favored and they use shields less? Doesn't tell me why its favored, just say it is. I don't why know it is though. Why is it favored?
"So, why do you use the greatsword?"
"Because its Gorum's favorite."
"Cool! Why is that?"
"I guess its because we use it."
"Umm... Don't you use it because its his favored?"
"Yes!"
"But its his favorite because you use it..."
"Yes!"
"So why can't you pick up the great axe? Can't that be his favorite?"
"Too busy using the greatsword. That's his favorite you know. I also can't wield a shield very well with it."'
"Well.. This is called a buckler, you can use it with the greatsword."
"What!? This man is a genius! I shall hug you for great joys!"
"Not in that spikey armor you won't..."
"Puny men never want hug from Priest of Gorum..."
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Having each blessing have a separate weapon basically abandons the entire concept of favored weapons AND now you are just as tied down to a specific blessing to get a chosen weapon (not to mention the blessings are still tied to deities) as you were tied down to a deity.
So what exactly does that solve? If anything it makes it worse as now your weapon and blessing have to match, meaning the number of variables is actually narrowed.
Going to bed.
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I cited something saying basically every priest of Abadar carries a crossbow.
But the herald uses a hammer. Chewbacca defense FTW...
I'm not trying to get embroiled in the hate-fest here, but I just want to point out that the passage you cited doesn't really say that. It says that every priest carries a crossbow bolt for a specific ritualistic use. It doesn't necessarily follow that routinely use a crossbow in their defense of the faith.
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I'm not trying to get embroiled in the hate-fest here, but I just want to point out that the passage you cited doesn't really say that. It says that every priest carries a crossbow bolt for a specific ritualistic use. It doesn't necessarily follow that routinely use a crossbow in their defense of the faith.
I cited something saying basically every priest of Abadar carries a crossbow.
But the herald uses a hammer. Chewbacca defense FTW...
How exactly do you think the bolt is used?
Come on.
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I'm not trying to get embroiled in the hate-fest here, but I just want to point out that the passage you cited doesn't really say that. It says that every priest carries a crossbow bolt for a specific ritualistic use. It doesn't necessarily follow that routinely use a crossbow in their defense of the faith.
I cited something saying basically every priest of Abadar carries a crossbow.
But the herald uses a hammer. Chewbacca defense FTW...
How exactly do you think the bolt is used?
Come on.
Certainly not to shoot at the families of the executed.
There are a lot of ways those families can get use out of a golden bolt. Actually shooting it at something is probably not an intended or well considered one.
I'm not trying to get embroiled in the hate-fest here, but I just want to point out that the passage you cited doesn't really say that. It says that every priest carries a crossbow bolt for a specific ritualistic use. It doesn't necessarily follow that routinely use a crossbow in their defense of the faith.
I cited something saying basically every priest of Abadar carries a crossbow.
But the herald uses a hammer. Chewbacca defense FTW...
How exactly do you think the bolt is used?
Come on.
Its used for a Ritualistic Execution. As in not for actual combat.
The Dagger of Pharasma is used for Ritualistic traditions and funeral duties. As in not for actual combat. Theres even a line in which it says their priests wouldn't dare to use it in combat, such is it's sacredness.
"So, why do you use the greatsword?"
"Because its Gorum's favorite."Why would a follower of a god want to use the weapon the god favored?
I mean, next you'll say the follower prays to the god for spells or something...
"Well why does he favor it?"
"Because we use it?""Well why don't you use something else?"
"Because he favors the greatsword!"
"But why does he favor it?"
"because we use it?"
Still never found out why its his favorite weapon, which was the point.
I'm not trying to get embroiled in the hate-fest here, but I just want to point out that the passage you cited doesn't really say that. It says that every priest carries a crossbow bolt for a specific ritualistic use. It doesn't necessarily follow that routinely use a crossbow in their defense of the faith.
I cited something saying basically every priest of Abadar carries a crossbow.
But the herald uses a hammer. Chewbacca defense FTW...
How exactly do you think the bolt is used?
Come on.
If he is the world of Pathfinder, I assume he keeps his crossbow in a special locked chest and never uses it accept to kill guys in a cool thematic way. Then he genially places it back inside the velvet-lined container and fights with a bow.
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Some priests wouldn't specifically use the ceremonial dagger that they all carry.
But don't let the actual words get in the way.
And ignore the Erastil followers all being trained in bows and the Gorum followers no using shields often because Gorum favors the two handed greatsword...and the meaning of the word favored...
Really am going to bed now. Can't wait until the revisions come out so some actual discussion on how to implement will take place.
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I'm not trying to get embroiled in the hate-fest here, but I just want to point out that the passage you cited doesn't really say that. It says that every priest carries a crossbow bolt for a specific ritualistic use. It doesn't necessarily follow that routinely use a crossbow in their defense of the faith.
I cited something saying basically every priest of Abadar carries a crossbow.
But the herald uses a hammer. Chewbacca defense FTW...
How exactly do you think the bolt is used?
Come on.
I hope you're trolling super-hard, because to think you can't read what you quote yourself...
Ceremonial execution is not general combat.
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Look, no one has a problem with Focus Weapon as such. Sure, free Weapon Focus, whatever. But the fact of the matter is that the class's only other major offensive class feature, Sacred Weapon, is tied completely to it. You keep saying that the favored weapon should be favored, but free Weapon Focus is exactly that; given that Sacred Weapon is basically the only means the warpriest has of keeping up in the To Hit department (which it is), the class as it stands goes beyond favoring and straight into "You must use this" territory. That's too far.
Some priests wouldn't specifically use the ceremonial dagger that they all carry.
But don't let the actual words get in the way.
And ignore the Erastil followers all being trained in bows and the Gorum followers no using shields often because Gorum favors the two handed greatsword...and the meaning of the word favored...
Really am going to bed now. Can't wait until the revisions come out so some actual discussion on how to implement will take place.
The flavor of the Pharasman Dagger tells us her priests specifically don't use it for combat. -_-
Hmm... How to wield a moose... I mean, I'll have to crank my strength pretty high, but I bet they'll never see it coming. A man wielding a moose by its antlers swinging it in circles screaming a battle cry "For Erastil!"
What? Utter nonsense, that!
Clearly Erastil wants you to be making ranged attacks with your moose. ;)|
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Still never found out why its his favorite weapon, which was the point.
Because it is his favorite weapon. Why is Butter Pecan my favorite Ice Cream? Why do your goalposts constantly move when they no longer suit the argument you want to make...
And his followers generally use it, which is why they don't carry shields as much.
Because it is his favored weapon. And followers of a god tend to follow the tenets of the faith of that God.
I know, I know, madness...really and truly sleep...must...stop...reading...
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Hmm... How to wield a moose... I mean, I'll have to crank my strength pretty high, but I bet they'll never see it coming. A man wielding a moose by its antlers swinging it in circles screaming a battle cry "For Erastil!"What? Utter nonsense, that!
Clearly Erastil wants you to be making ranged attacks with your moose. ;)
I'm going to need a really big bow then... and maybe a few men to help me wield it. We'll have a rogue fire it. Sneak attack with a moose. Don't know if there's anything more surprising than that!
Still never found out why its his favorite weapon, which was the point.Because it is his favorite weapon. Why is Butter Pecan my favorite Ice Cream? Why do your goalposts constantly move when they no longer suit the argument you want to make...
And his followers generally use it, which is why they don't carry shields as much.
Because it is his favored weapon. And followers of a god tend to follow the tenets of the faith of that God.
What moving goal post? Simple question was why is it is his favorite. The answer was because its his favored, his followers don't use shields. Which is why I called it circular. Because it always goes back to why is it his favorite? Because people use it. Why do people use it? because its his favorite. Its not an explanation at all.
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The flavor of the Pharasman Dagger tells us her priests specifically don't use it for combat. -_-Some priests wouldn't specifically use the ceremonial dagger that they all carry.
But don't let the actual words get in the way.
And ignore the Erastil followers all being trained in bows and the Gorum followers no using shields often because Gorum favors the two handed greatsword...and the meaning of the word favored...
Really am going to bed now. Can't wait until the revisions come out so some actual discussion on how to implement will take place.
"It is not forbidden for a priest to use a skane to draw blood or take a life"
Some refuse to do so. Not even most. Some.
I think I could have a quote that literally says "This is the weapon that the followers use exclusively, always" and people would argue with me about it...
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I'm going to need a really big bow then... and maybe a few men to help me wield it. We'll have a rogue fire it. Sneak attack with a moose. Don't know if there's anything more surprising than that!Hmm... How to wield a moose... I mean, I'll have to crank my strength pretty high, but I bet they'll never see it coming. A man wielding a moose by its antlers swinging it in circles screaming a battle cry "For Erastil!"What? Utter nonsense, that!
Clearly Erastil wants you to be making ranged attacks with your moose. ;)
Moose ARE ranged weapons, you plebeians. You are forgetting to string the antlers.
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I'm not trying to get embroiled in the hate-fest here, but I just want to point out that the passage you cited doesn't really say that. It says that every priest carries a crossbow bolt for a specific ritualistic use. It doesn't necessarily follow that routinely use a crossbow in their defense of the faith.
I cited something saying basically every priest of Abadar carries a crossbow.
But the herald uses a hammer. Chewbacca defense FTW...
How exactly do you think the bolt is used?
Come on.
I hope you're trolling super-hard, because to think you can't read what you quote yourself...
Ceremonial execution is not general combat.
Hell, it's not even stated to be used in the executions. It's only explicit use is to be given to the families of the executed.
Which strongly implies that those bolts aren't used in the executions, considering Abadar is LN and traumatizing families isn't something they're likely to ritualize.
How exactly do you think the bolt is used?
Come on.
You know what? I'll own up to that. I was paying more attention to the second sentence that describes what is done with the bolt, but yeah, it makes sense that it's the same bolt that used in the execution.
Because it is his favorite weapon. Why is Butter Pecan my favorite Ice Cream? Why do your goalposts constantly move when they no longer suit the argument you want to make...
Someones projecting.
"It is not forbidden for a priest to use a skane to draw blood or take a life"
Some refuse to do so. Not even most. Some.
Why do they refuse to? Is it because they believe the blade is sacred? Why do they use other weapons to fight in that case?
What if I'm a Pharasman Warpriest who doesn't wield the dagger because I believe it is a sacred tool of our God that has no place in battle being stained with the blood of the unworthy?
As for Gorum you never tell us WHY he favors the Greatsword.
Moose ARE ranged weapons, you plebeians. You are forgetting to string the antlers.I'm going to need a really big bow then... and maybe a few men to help me wield it. We'll have a rogue fire it. Sneak attack with a moose. Don't know if there's anything more surprising than that!Hmm... How to wield a moose... I mean, I'll have to crank my strength pretty high, but I bet they'll never see it coming. A man wielding a moose by its antlers swinging it in circles screaming a battle cry "For Erastil!"What? Utter nonsense, that!
Clearly Erastil wants you to be making ranged attacks with your moose. ;)
So... am I instead expected to get on a giant creature with a pair of gnarly branch things and put a string on that, then ride around the battlefield using the string to somehow project objects towards my foes? Maybe... smaller antlered creatures? This sounds like a lot of work...
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What moving goal post? Simple question was why is it is his favorite. The answer was because its his favored, his followers don't use shields. Which is why I called it circular. Because it always goes back to why is it his favorite? Because people use it. Why do people use it? because its his favorite. Its not an explanation at all.
No, it started with "The flavor is dumb, why does the god of love have a glaive"
Then when that was answered it was "You cherry picked that, there is no flavor reason for these three cherry picked gods"
Then when that was answered it became "Well, yes it is his favorite and his followers clearly use it, but why is it his favorite?"
And on and on...
Many of you don't want to have to actually play a follower of a deity, including role playing the tenets of the faith.
And so no matter what is shown, there will be something. If SKR showed up right now and said "It is his favorite because of "x" reason" you would then say "Well that isn't a very good reason, what if I had a better reason..." and round and round we would go.
What is abundantly clear is that many of you don't want to use the favored weapon.
THAT IS THE WHOLE REASON THEY ARE ADDING INCENTIVES TO MAKE THEM MORE DESIRABLE TO USE.
HELLO!
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"It is not forbidden for a priest to use a skane to draw blood or take a life"
Some refuse to do so. Not even most. Some.
Why do they refuse to? Is it because they believe the blade is sacred? Why do they use other weapons to fight in that case?
What if I'm a Pharasman Warpriest who doesn't wield the dagger because I believe it is a sacred tool of our God that has no place in battle being stained with the blood of the unworthy?
Then you take a feat and wield something other than a dagger. Same as if I'm a fighter who wants to fight with an exotic weapon.
Or you just play a cleric.
No, it started with "The flavor is dumb, why does the god of love have a glaive"
Then when that was answered it was "You cherry picked that, there is no flavor reason for these three cherry picked gods"
No you don't get to switch it around like that so easily.
We already said the only weapon with an explanation was Shelyn's which was before you even posted that explanation. And then you post the only explanation a Deity has for it's Favored Weapon which we already acknowledged. So you basically did nothing to prove your point. In fact I highly doubt she actually uses it in combat as that would put it dangerously close to stealing the souls it needs.
I would love to know why you think Cayden Cailean would demand his Warpriests to use Rapier which was just the weapon he used in life and not for any particular reason did he use it.
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Many of you don't want to have to actually play a follower of a deity, including role playing the tenets of the faith.
Woah! That's completely uncalled for. Where are you getting that? Claiming everyone who disagrees with you doesn't want to roleplay is not a healthy thought, and projecting it isn't going to be helpful at all.
Other people do want to roleplay. That's why they want more options! Thinking like that is creating an enemy that isn't real and for reasons that don't exist.
@ Ciretose
You have to admit that there is a practical element that needs to be considered in the militant branch of any church.
Each church could very reasonably have a weapon for ritual that is different than their weapon for war.
Some priests during the crusades refused to use bladed weapons, and would even go as far as wrapping heavy maces with cloth to avoid shedding blood. (Apparently internal hemorrhaging of the brain is a nicer way to kill =P)
Pope Pious took this further by making the "holy water sprinkler" a heavy horseman's mace filled with holy water and perforated to release that water on struck foes, "baptizing" them as they died.
This is pretty much where the old "blunt weapons only" rule for Clerics came from.
But at the same time, Templars were using swords. Different branches, different tools.
I think that same dichotomy could exist here. Clerics gain proficiency with their Deities favored weapon because it is usually incorporated into certain rituals of the church. That means that they are exposed to the weapon and become familiar with it. The church of Abadar uses a golden crossbow bolt in its rituals, so a member of that church that is involved with those sorts of rituals, AKA a cleric of Abadar, is going to be familiar with this weapon.
That does not mean that a Warpriest would be. I doubt that a Warpriest would serve his church in the same capacity as a Cleric or be involved in the same rituals. There are many examples of wildly separatist warrior cults... heck the Templars were eventually called heretics.
So, it is not outside the realm of reason to expect some differences in the heraldry, motifs and weapons of a group of Warpriests compared to a group of Clerics. They may even have slightly different codes of conduct, or ideas about how to handle situations.
I think that the flaw in the reasoning here is to assume that a Warpriest is just a fighting Cleric and not a distinct type of worshipper that may have their own rules, codes, and dogma.
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Many of you don't want to have to actually play a follower of a deity, including role playing the tenets of the faith.Woah! That's completely uncalled for. Where are you getting that? Claiming everyone who disagrees with you doesn't want to roleplay is not a healthy thought, and projecting it isn't going to be helpful at all.