I didn't realize that we were only supposed to compare them against the core line instead of paizo products in general, my bad.
Wait, Why?
Sure you can houserule the worst offenders into place, but that doesn't mean they aren't broken. Anything that needs fixing is broken by definition, and let's not forget about the Oberoni Fallacy.
One major purpose of playtesting is to break the game, for reasons that should be obvious. That the developers are insisting that we stick to Core only when making comparisons almost makes me believe what Frank Trollman said about Pathfinder's initial playtest.
We're being asked to compare these play test classes to the core rulebook line of classes. Doing anything else is doing something other than what the designers have specifically asked us to do as part of this play test.
Do you see anywhere that they say assume core is the only thing available? That's VASTLY different than comparing them to the core classes.
Sure you can houserule the worst offenders into place, but that doesn't mean they aren't broken. Anything that needs fixing is broken by definition, and let's not forget about the Oberoni Fallacy.
One major purpose of playtesting is to break the game, for reasons that should be obvious. That the developers are insisting that we stick to Core only when making comparisons almost makes me believe what Frank Trollman said about Pathfinder's initial playtest.
They haven't actually "insisted" we stick to Core; they have recommended it so that we can compare the new classes fairly to the oldest and most playtested classes in the game. Many people are trying other stuff from Campaign Setting books, Player Companions, the APG and other sources and the design team is OK with that.
The developers have just suggested that if you use everything, you are bound to make any class act strangely or illogically with certain combinations of options. By sticking to core we can better see if it is a fundamental problem with the new mechanics and class features rather than situational builds.
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I think, it looks like your figthers both are a bit low in the AC department to be relevant for the discussion MechE is trying to have with you.I think they're starting to catch onto this. Sure, both of those fighters have DPR that is about 15% higher, but their AC are 4 and 5 points lower for that DPR.
My point is this - when you compare the Swashbuckler to the closest core rulebooks only build, it has some advantages and does not pay a huge price for them. It's not "head & shoulders above the rest" - I'm not trying to say that. (I may have used stronger words earlier in an attempt to make a point - not sure and don't want to check 1,400 post, lol.) It is comparable, power wise, and in my play testing has successfully served as a primary front line tank for a party of 4 as well as serving the role of party face with a great repertoire of skills and great flavor.
Also, the Swashbuckler still has the Panache abilities which have not even entered the conversation (besides Precise Strike) though they could all use a bit of work still as Parry is amazing, thematically, but very hard to make useful in actual play.
Okay, you had simply said "solidly ahead" and I wanted to know why you thought that.
I mean, you are likely correct in terms of damage output, but the SnB fighter can easily trump the swashbuckler's AC at higher level. Sword and board isn't the best build, but I was wondering where your metric for "solidly ahead" was.
My issue is less with the low end. i think that the swashbuckler is actually pretty good in the 4-8 level range.
I think the problems occur at higher level.
A fighter who can use TWF and finesse gets basically double the bonuses from weapon spec, weapon training (and gloves), and enhancement. By the time you hit level 10, you can start to use power attack. Heck... a rogue can compete in this swashbucklery trope once they get to mid level (9-12).
The swashbuckler's panache pool doesn't scale well. In fact, many of his abilities don't. The lack of feat support for just using one weapon is a real issue, and not one that I see them fixing.
So here are some very simple (core only no archtype) builds that I think may be doing the swashbuckler better.
I am just digging in to this now, so I could be proven wrong by my own post here. I am really just looking to make some comparisons to other finesse combat builds to see how they stack up.
here is a dex based fighter
Human Fighter lvl 12 (20 pt.)
Str: 16
Dex: 24
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Feats:
1. Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Dodge
2. Weapon Focus (Kukri)
3. Double Slice
4. Weapon Spec. (Kukri)
5. Power Attack
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Iron Will
8. Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)
9. Improved Critical (Kukri)
10. Critical Focus
11. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
12. Two Weapon Rend
Gear: (108k WBL)
+2 belt of physical perfection
+2 Mithral Full Plate
+3 Kukri
+3 Kukri
+3 Cloak of Resistance
+1 Ring of Protection
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
Gloves of Dueling
Winged Boots
+1 Composite Bow, Arrows, clothes, potions, etc. Lots of cash left over, I am just lazy.
DEFENSES
HP: 118
AC: 31
F:14 R:14 W:9
OFFENSES
Kukri Attack Bonus +26(22 w/power attack) (BAB +12, +7 dex, +4 training, +2 focuses, +3 weapon, -2 TWF)
Full Attack: +26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16, 1d4+12 (15-20/x2)
Power Attack: +22/+22/+17/+17/+12/+12, 1d4+20 (15-20/x2)
AC does not scale as well as the fighter's attack bonuses, so power attack starts becoming useful (it pretty much sucks for TWF in the earlier levels)
But against a CR 12 average AC of appx 28, we have this DPR:
Full Attack DPR: 60.9
with TW rend (98.3% that it will trigger): so +9.34 DPR
With crits: +18.88 DPR
Total: 89.11
Power Attack DPR: 67.5
With TW Rend: (82.1% chance of trigger) +7.8 DPR
With Crits: +22.76 DPR
Total: 98.06
A swashbuckler who has the same stats, same weapon feats plus greater weapon spec at 12, same weapon, same gloves of dueling, etc. will be hitting for 1d6+34 on each hit (avg 37.5)
His attack bonus will be +24/+19/+14(+12bab, +4 training, +3 weap, +7 dex, +2 focuses, -4 power attack)
He will have a DPR of: 67.5 (disturbingly similar)
With crits: 16.52
Total: 84.01
So, the TWF finesse fighter is "solidly ahead". As levels rise and the static damage increases on the offhand, the swashbuckler falls behind. I factored in the swashbuckler having (focus, G. focus, Spec, G. Spec, crit focus)
Same AC comparison, swashbuckler will have a +3 mithral chain shirt at beast at this level, same ring/ammy for ease of comparison, nimble +3, same dex.
So an AC of 29 (30 if he also takes dodge)
Here again, the fighter is ahead, and against elementals, constructs, crit immune undead, oozes etc. the fighter is WAY ahead.
The saving throws fall in favor of the fighter, since even though both will have lousy will saves, the fighters high fort is more valuable than the swashbuckler's redundantly high reflex save.
and then there is the rogue build which has, i think we can agree, a lot more utility than the swash with his 8+int skill points and trapfinding. I will also give him the charisma needed to be a good face. He is a canny barfight master and a swarthy cad that demoralizes his foes with great flourishes.
Human Fighter lvl 12 (20 pt.)
Str: 12
Dex: 22
Con: 16
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 14
Feats/Talents:
1. Sap Adept, Enforcer
2. Unarmed Combat Training
3. Knockout Artist
4. Weapon Training (Focus: Unarmed Strike)
5. Sap Master
6. Offensive Defense
7. Dazzling Display
8. Befuddling Strike
9. Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
10. Feat (Hero's Display)
11. Performing Combatant
12. Slippery Mind
Gear: (108k WBL)
+2 belt of physical perfection
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Brass Knuckle
+3 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Ring of Protection
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor
Circlet of persuasion
Winged Boots
+1 Composite Bow, Arrows, clothes, potions, etc. Lots of cash left over, I am just lazy.
DEFENSES
HP: 105
AC: 26
F:10 R:17 W:7 (can reroll on enchantments on the next round)
OFFENSES
Punching Attack Bonus +19(BAB +9, +6 dex, +1 focus, +3 weapon)
(+2 to hit when sneak attacking)
Full Attack: +19/+14, 1d3+4
Intimidate Bonus: +20
Perform Check +13 (vs. DC 20)
So, on a full attack. Against a new target, the rogue will demoralize his target for an average of 6 rounds, after which it will be flat-footed. If the rogue rolls a 3 or his 1d3, crits, charges, or knocks out an enemy, he will make a performance check to demoralize all enemies within 30ft. Intimidates at this point are essentially automatic, feel free to trade slippery mind for skill mastery with intimidate for an auto 30.
Anyway, against a first time target:
Full Attack: +19, 1d3+4 non-lethal then +16 vs. flat-footed AC for 1d3+12d6+40 non-lethal. (DPR = 49.8)
Against an already shattered target: +21/+16, 1d3+12d6+40
Average CR 12 flat-footed AC is sadly only 2 points lower so 26.
DPR vs Shattered Opponents: 113.4 NL
Im ignoring crits here because they are negligible
Riders:
If one hits, the rogue gets a +12 dodge bonus to AC, bringing his AC to 38.
If a second hits, he applies befuddling strike and the target takes a -2 to attack rolls for 1d4 rounds
The target will also have a -2 from demoralize.
So, against something like a CR 12 Mature Adult Black Dragon
(bite +24, 2 claws +23, 2 wings +18, tail slap +18)
The dragon will have hit chances of bite 15%, 2 claws 10%, 2 wings 5%, tail slap 5%.
There is a 60% chance that the dragon doesn't hit a single attack.
Of course this build is similarly awful against the un-crittable, but also useless against undead.
The lethal version of this rogue would have dropped the sap line for two-weapon fighting, two-weapon feint etc. Hence the 13 int in the stat lines. 10 skills per level make him very useful as well.
Now lets take a non-core look at the Aldori Swordlord, because this is a fairly popular PrC that fills a very similar thematic role. I know I am going outside Core here, but this is a Paizo product that acts very much like a swashbuckler so I think it is worth comparing the two, bbut take it with a grain of salt.
Human Fighter lvl 6, Swordlord lvl 6 (20 pt.)
Str: 16
Dex: 24
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Feats:
1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (aldori dueling sword), Weapon Finesse,Weapon Focus (aldori dueling sword)
2. Dazzling Display
3. Improved Unarmed Strike
4. Weapon Spec. (Aldori Dueling Sword)
5. Dodge
6. Crane Style
7. Power Attack, Dueling Mastery (bonus feat)
8.
9. Improved Critical
10.
11. Crane Wing
12.
Gear: (108k WBL)
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 Mithral Chain Shirt
+3 Aldori Dueling Sword
+3 Cloak of Resistance
+2 Ring of Protection
+2 Amulet of Natural Armor
Gloves of Dueling
Winged Boots
+1 Composite Bow, Arrows, clothes, potions, etc. Lots of cash left over, I am just lazy.
DEFENSES
HP: 118
AC: 31 (can fight defensively at -1 +5 for 36 AC. Deflects 1 attack/round, also gets +1 AC in any round when he full-attacks)
F:11 R:15 W:5
OFFENSES
Sword Attack Bonus:+25(+12 bab, +7 dex, +3 training, +1 focus, +3 weapon, -1 fighting defensively)
Full Attack:
Sword: +25/+20/+15 1d8+15(17-20/x2)
Power Attack:
Sword: +21/+16/+11, 1d8+23 (can use two hands, loses a deflection, 1 point of AC, and gains +4 damage, I'll ignore this option)
DPR vs CR 12 avg of 28 AC:
Full Attack: 38.025
With Crits: +7.1
Total: 45.13
Power Attack DPR ends up being worse.
So, the swordlord has a very good AC, but the swashbuckler is very far ahead in terms of damage and skills. (the swordlord does get some nice swift action intimidates, can fight on ropes without losing dex etc... so he fits the trope well) I think the swashbuckler is looking pretty darn good here.
Okay... so what have I learned? The swashbuckler is very solid. It holds up pretty well in these comparisons. The saving throws are a SERIOUS problem, and I think that just swapping strong reflex for strong fort would be very helpful here. It is a much more important save. There are very few save or suck reflex spells (Icy prison comes to mind) and this is going to be murder for a frontline guy at high level.
Is the dual wielding fighter eventually a better combatant? Yes, it seems so, BUT the swashbuckler has a bunch of deeds and more skill points, so I think that is pretty fair.
However, I maintain my position that Dexterity and Charisma should be incentivised more for the Swashbuckler. As I said in a previous post, this does not need to be Dex to Damage. This can come from a number of places, mainly deeds that scale based on dexterity or charisma.
More uses for AoOs or more interesting ways to provoke, ways to get around difficult terrain or charge in something other than a straight line. Free finesse does not a dex fighter make, and with riposte being detached from AoOs, there isn't much left to incentivise dex or charisma over the standard character bonuses.
Every swashbuckler is 2 feats away (or worse, a 1 level dip) from using heavy armor and ignoring dex. They are going to take 2 feats for weapn spec and greater weapon spec, and they are actually pretty short on other feats to take that support their one-handed fighting style, so 2 feats to swap a 24 dex for a 24 strength in order to get a +7 damage boost will always look too darn attractive.
Reflex save will take a 4 point dip, and so will initiative, but in my experience, initiative is only really important for casters and archers. Otherwise its not too big of an issue. We all know how skills will shake out at mid-high level. That +4 bonus really wont make a big difference for most standard usages.
So, some other concrete reward for having a good dex or charisma would be much appreciated. (again, does not need to be damage) I think that Deeds are the way to go for this. I would also like to see a small bump to panache, maybe +1 at levels 6, 12 and 18?
Also, as another thought... I think we need a chaotic alignment restriction on this class... otherwise a 2 level MoMS dip is going to become the swashbuckler standard. Crane Style, Crane Wing, +3 to all saves... yeah...
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The Dawnflower Dervish archetype also came from Inner Sea Magic and therefore did not receive the same amount of scrutiny (minimal, if any play testing, etc.). This is the reason that many of the optimizer options are found in these books, because they did not receive the same amount of scrutiny. And hence if you compare the playtest classes from the Advanced Class Guide to options outside of the Core rulebook line, you will probably be disappointed.
It really doesn't matter how it got into the game, in this case. If your specific concern is about this book providing a class for Munchkin-y types to dip into when trying to make their str dumping rogue or whatever the concern is, that's the sort of person who is going to grab options from splatbooks, generally, and hey look, they have something so much better they wouldn't even consider this. And even if you're just literally looking at the CRB, there's fighter right there. Good fort save, which they'd appreciate more on the front lines, proficiency with basically everything, and a free feat to use for weapon finesse if they really want, or for anything else.
Meanwhile, if you're looking for things swashbucklers might be tempted to dip into, there's a surprisingly large number of options. 2 levels of paladin for instance would be a huge help with their saves, heavier armor options that let them freely dump dex, the ability to patch themselves up when they take a hit, and smite. And really at that point, like with Dawnflower Dervish, there'd be a fair bit of temptation to just stick with it. All you really get from swashbuckler past the first few levels is a scaling offset to a specific, otherwise terrible fighting style, which eats all your swifts.
Also, the Swashbuckler still has the Panache abilities which have not even entered the conversation (besides Precise Strike) though they could all use a bit of work still as Parry is amazing, thematically, but very hard to make useful in actual play.
The deeds have been mentioned plenty, they just don't tend to spark as much debate. Precise Strike gets plenty of conversation behind it because A- it looks amazing if you're just glancing over the feature list, B- the way damage output on this class is balanced seems to assume you are spending every available point with it, and C- Most deeds are actually sadly useless in actual play. A quick rundown of the first few (still haven't had time to test the higher levels):
Derring-do: It's incredibly situational, particularly in light of the panache recharge mechanic. At level 1, you might have the points available to use if the situation comes up, and there's little enough difference between skills with ranks and without that 1d6 is a significant bonus. Once you hit level 3 though, you've got 1 point you're never spending, and probably 1 more, which you're constantly spending so you don't waste recharges. Odds are you're going to come out of any fight with just the 1 point left, and you sure as heck aren't going to sacrifice your always-on abilities for what quickly becomes too small a bonus to have a significant impact. If it was a min-1-panache deed, it would be pretty fun, but otherwise, it stops being a viable option at level 3 or so.
Opportune Parry/Riposte: Too much of a risk and too high a cost in every sense to ever use it. As seems to be the general consensus, if it was a single ability with a check made after your opponent's attack, only if the attack would otherwise hit, it would be a neat situational option. As is, if you're really trying to avoid hits, recovery is a much better option. The parry side of things currently really only pays off as it allows the riposte (and quite frankly it feels cheesy to activate that off things that are already a miss), and even if you somehow did have the panache for it, there is a feat you are required to take before the riposte is possible. While actually playing a swashbuckler, I have absolutely never been in a position where using either seemed like a good idea (past, I suppose, just the parry at level 1 if it didn't seem like I'd need derring-do or recovery that day), however if you are not primarily a swashbuckler, and are just taking a single level dip, I could see using this all the time. You don't need to keep a point in reserve for anything else, so why not? Another reason I'd prefer to see it moved to a higher level and tweaked.
Recovery: Best deed in the game at levels 1 and 2. That said, it is (and there's a pattern here) ridiculously situational. The +2 AC is OK, but not worth using it over. The real perk is avoiding a full attack. Not an issue if something had to move up to hit you, so you won't use it then. Not useful if something starts its turn adjacent to you either, because it can just take a 5' step and continue with the rest of its attacks. For it to be useful, you have to start your turn adjacent to something, attack it, take a 5' step back. Then when it steps up to you, you activate recovery off the first attack. This is of course further assuming it bothers with you. After seeing this trick once, it probably won't. After you have backed away, you are no longer threatening it, and there's no reason not to just walk around you to hit a squishier target. Activating this ability provokes AOOs from anything else around, which defeats the purpose, particularly if they use one to trip you. Plus, the whole thing eats an immediate action, preventing you from using a swift (and thus activating just about any other deed) on your turn. Plus the whole thing is absolutely dependent on your opponent having only a 5' reach. Once you reach the point where a 10' reach is commonplace, the whole thing becomes completely worthless. They don't have to take a 5' step forward to keep you in range, and can instead even take a 5' step back to get an AOO in as you return and deny your full attack. If the distance travelled scaled up with typical reach, it might stay (very situationally) viable, but otherwise, you never use it past level 2.
Menacing Swordplay: Kinda neat! You never spend panache with it, so it's largely a freebie. It doesn't really do a whole lot, since you have to crank your intimidation skill to use it, and monsters which can be demoralized are surprisingly rare, your GM probably won't know the rules for it off hand, and it's easy to forget, but shaken is a nice condition to potentially apply (particularly since I vaguely recall some option for rogues/ninjas to do sneak attack damage to shaken opponents) if it doesn't cost you anything. Unfortunately, it does cost you your swift action for the round, which is, again, required to activate every other deed. For how little it does, and being one of the most on-theme features of the class, I'd like to see it changed from a swift action to an automatic skill roll the first time you damage an enemy in a round. Incidentally, it is weird as is that dealing damage is not a requirement. If I'm not overcoming your DR, I don't see why you should be nervous.
Precise Strike: Largely the lynchpin of the class! While there are plenty of build options that will never use it, this is what makes the open-handed fighting style the class is designed to support viable. If you don't get a critical hit, you add damage to your little jabs roughly equal to what they'd do if you had two hands on a bigger weapon, unless it is immune to precision damage. If you do get a crit however, you have to give up your swift action, and the point of panache yon crit restores, in order to shift the doubled damage over onto an attack next round. This is kind of a huge flaw really, since A- you are having to pay for something literally every character in the game who is not an open-handed swashbuckler just automatically does, and it effectively locks out your ability to use darn near any other feature your class gets. The simple fix would be to just let the crit damage double normally. Barring that, activating the extra damage should at least be a free action. Declared in advance so you can waste it on a bad roll if you insist I guess.
Swashbuckler Initiative: Hey, it's neat to have I guess. They only get it because we're copying and pasting from Gunslingers, who are MUCH happier to see it because they deliver ranged touch attacks, and going first lets them get in a quick pop at an AC of 10 at the start of a fight. A swashbuckler is more likely to delay and let someone get a buff up on them. Still, it's the one legitimate freebie.
Pommel Swipe: Finally, we hit the second good one. It is absolutely worth it to spend a point of panache to activate this, and it's perfectly sensible for it to cost a swift action to kick the round off with a quick little trick. Harder to pull off than a regular trip, more costly than just taking, say, the Felling Smash feat, but it can actually be used on things that normally can't ever be tripped, and even without the trip it gives you the ability to actually do blunt damage. Several levels past the point where you're freaking out about being unable to harm skeletons, but at least you don't have to spend the ENTIRE fight hiding in the corner if an ooze shows up. Great as is, don't change a thing.
Targeted Strike: Feels like a weird (and weirdly watered down) version of the Gunslinger equivalent. Leg targeting is cool in that I can knock something prone with a high CMD... but it doesn't work on the things most likely to have one, so I'm more likely to just use pommel swipe if that's what I want and not waste my whole turn on this. Arm's not a great option because I can't pick up what they drop, so I'm really just giving my whole turn up and dealing no damage to cost them their move action. Head has a 50/50 shot they'll miss their next turn which might be worth it (it's better for a Gunslinger because attacking the closest person probably means an ally, for a swashbuckler it's going to be you). Torso/Wings is a weird bit of copy/paste clutter (what has wings but no torso? Manananggals?) neglects to say how much damage you do, and... OK yeah, it might be worth it to make only one attack this turn to force you to do the same. Probably is with this class even. Still, these all really feel like they should only cost a standard action.
And while I haven't put the rest into practice yet...
Bleeding Wound: Hey! Something I can just throw on an attack withou giving up my turn or my swift action! It does something useful and cool! I can even throw signature deed on it! At this level the bleed damage isn't likely to really impact how many hits it takes to bring something down, but it's nice to have a new option I'm going to at least consider every round.
Evasive: Hey, it's free. Weird to be tied into panache when every other class that gets these just gets these but still.
Subtle Blade: I don't generally see disarm and sunder come up ever, but if you have a game where they do it's nice.
Dizzying Defense: I don't think +4 AC is worth a panache point and losing your AOOs at this level. Particularly if it doesn't stack with combat expertise, which is a likely pickup for the class if you can afford the int or have any interest in turtling up.
Perfect Thrust: What would you ever use this on? The equivalent Gunslinger deed is Dead Shot, available 8 levels earlier, and allowing you to make a full attack (at touch AC generally), and total all the damage together before applying DR, and any crits rolled apply to the combined total. That one's pretty great and handy (saves you ammo and misfire chances too). This is... just kind of useless. Particularly if we assume you have access to precise strike, the +15 you could otherwise get from that is going to put you over any DR you're likely to encounter, and you should be able to get at least one hit on anything. Or you could use Bleeding Wound, sounds like a perfect time for it. Is there some particular creature with like DR 25/slashing and 20 points of natural armor I'm forgetting? Otherwise I couldn't see using this even if it cost no panache.
Swashbuckler's Edge: This would be really great to have had at a much lower level. Would have been fantastic at 1. At 15, these are not skill checks anyone is worried about making anymore.
Cheat Death: Better for a gunslinger because they aren't likely to have another hit coming in right behind this one now that their defenses have been shattered by losing all their grit, but hey, it's still fun.
Deadly Stab: Did everyone catch how this secretly costs 2 or 3 panache? Also, half your level to a DC is a weird thing to throw on an ability you get at 19. Nice to be able to do it if something has a lousy enough fort save at that level though I suppose.
Stunning Stab: For technically less cost I could just outright kill something with the same save. For half the cost (although it's a full round) I could stagger with no save, and no restrictions on the target. If I really want to slow you down, that's likely the better move.
So, to recap. If you use the open handed fighting style, maintaining your ability to crit largely locks you out of the whole feature. Otherwise, there's a REALLY iffy Mobility Light you'll use up until level 7, then never touch it again in favor of a fancy trip. At level 11, you can mix that up with bleed damage., and honestly there's no real compelling reason to stick with the class past that point unless you committed yourself to the open-hand style and you're interested finally seeing the pendulum swing across the line after just taking an effective penalty to all your damage up to that point.
Apart from bleeding wound, I'm not seeing anything on the list here that can't be better accomplished with the feats you're giving up relative to a standard fighter. Some of these are slightly more effective, but the feat versions don't have panache recovery and expenditure locking them out, they're just always available and can generally stack together.
I didn't realize that we were only supposed to compare them against the core line instead of paizo products in general, my bad.
Wait, Why?
Well, the core books represent the Pathfinder Game. The Golarion books represent the Golarion setting. Dervish Dancing, for example, deals with a fighting style for people who are down with Sarenrae. This doesn't mean you can't grab the mechanics for your own setting, but they are not a part of the Pathfinder games as much as they are a part of the Golarion world.
As for archtypes, I totally agree that these comparisons are not good. The swashbuckler may get some archtype love, but right now you just have a base class. So option for option, it should be equal unless there is really an archtype that is made to fit the theme that a new class is trying to exemplify (EG Savage Skald Bard vs. Skald)
That alignment restriction makes no sense. And even if it was implemented, people would simply take their two Monk levels first and then decide that the Monastic life socks. And it would stop all the Paladin dips - Few things make Charisma more enticing than Divine Grace.
Sure you can houserule the worst offenders into place, but that doesn't mean they aren't broken. Anything that needs fixing is broken by definition, and let's not forget about the Oberoni Fallacy.
One major purpose of playtesting is to break the game, for reasons that should be obvious. That the developers are insisting that we stick to Core only when making comparisons almost makes me believe what Frank Trollman said about Pathfinder's initial playtest.
It may be derail and i apologise for it but what did Frank Trollman say?
It may be derail and i apologise for it but what did Frank Trollman say?Sure you can houserule the worst offenders into place, but that doesn't mean they aren't broken. Anything that needs fixing is broken by definition, and let's not forget about the Oberoni Fallacy.
One major purpose of playtesting is to break the game, for reasons that should be obvious. That the developers are insisting that we stick to Core only when making comparisons almost makes me believe what Frank Trollman said about Pathfinder's initial playtest.
This comes from a forum called The Gaming Den, and I take it with a pile of salt because no links or screenshots are provided. And because the site is pretty hostile to Pathfinder in general. But for what it's worth, here it is:
"Destructive playtesting was not only not encouraged, it was actively and specifically rejected. The Paizo leadership only wanted to hear about whether people had fun or not. Which means that the most pried playtest reports were seriously ones in which the players spent all night in immersive roleplaying or where the fun centered around "awesome" artifacts that broke the rules. In short - things that didn't use the rules at all and didn't demonstrate anything. People who actually ran apples to apples comparisons, same game tests, or repeated experiments to get controlled results or regressed bugs were not only ignored, they were banned from their forums.
Their playtest was a marketing ploy and nothing more. It was never intended to uncover problems or produce real results."
It may be derail and i apologise for it but what did Frank Trollman say?Sure you can houserule the worst offenders into place, but that doesn't mean they aren't broken. Anything that needs fixing is broken by definition, and let's not forget about the Oberoni Fallacy.
One major purpose of playtesting is to break the game, for reasons that should be obvious. That the developers are insisting that we stick to Core only when making comparisons almost makes me believe what Frank Trollman said about Pathfinder's initial playtest.
That Paizo only used playtest results from people who had fun and played in ways that the mechanics weren't actually necessary (i.e.. lots of roleplay, artifacts, and story) over actual rules issues. As can be seen from the changes made to the Arcanist and the considerations being discussed for the Swashbuckler (involving dueling swords and Weapon Finesse), it is not how Paizo runs a playtest. He used a lot of rude language as well.
I'm hoping that sabre fighting and the Finesse issue can be resolved in the upcoming adjustments. I know they want to prevent level-dipping as much as possible, but the class really needs help at first level and a whole classic swashbuckling style is being somewhat sidelined.
EDIT: Ninja'd! :)
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Things and stuffs
Derring-do: Yep, I never like abilities that just don't scale up at all. With signature deed... kinda neat? But there are many better places to put signature deed or the feat.
Opportune Parry/Riposte: Parry, as has been discussed throughout this thread, is just awful. Riposte OTOH, is actually darn good. If you have the panache (and that is a big if) you will only want to parry the creature's worst attack so you can use riposte. Its a 2 point usage, but its an extra attack... an extra attack is pretty awesome, and if you are trying to go for expertise its a good time to trip to interrupt a full attack or disarm to interrupt a full attack. Not great, but useable.
Recovery: It combines pretty well with lunge, and it is a nice situational option against pounce creatures or some full attacks. I think this is a good deed overall. I don't really mind that you might only use it once per adventuring day, it is a back-pocket option.
Menacing Swordplay: I like this one... it is a good option and it doesn't cost you anything really. When you are stuck at 1 panache, this is a great deed, and I can imagine that will happen a lot since you will effectively be locked out of a lot of other swift actions.
Precise Strike: It needs to be rewritten to clearly prevent using a one-handed piercing weapon in two hands, and the limitation against un-critables sucks. It sucks for the rogue, it sucks here. It will always suck. On a rogue I live with it because front-line fighting is not my job. Here, it is just a massive annoyance and it should go away.
Swashbuckler Initiative: I would replace this... melee characters (other than rogues) really don't get much out of a high initiative, and this is just another reason to care less about dex.
Pommel Swipe: If this stays as written, it is far and away the best way to spend panache, and there is very little reason to spend panache on ANY other deed. An extra attack? With a trip rider? Yes please.
Targeted Strike: On a gunslinger... this is a pretty useless deed. On a swashbuckler, who has to be in melee range to use it, it is even worse. I can't see many situations where this will be useful at all, but I guess it gives you something to do against constructs, since you will barely be able to break through their DR.
Bleeding Wound: I would rather see this just be flat damage rather than bleed. This would be a good way to try to deal with the fact that you suck against un-critttables. Other than that... I can't see spending panache on this rather than Pommel Swipe, but I guess if you have a glut of panache to blow through...
Evasive: Agreed... this feels like a class feature turned into a filler deed. It looks like a deed, but it really isn't one. Still these are very good things to have.
Subtle Blade: Considering that they don't get Precision damage on items, I can't see a swashbuckler doing very much sundering. Disarm... well disarm is cool, and it can be pretty good, but I just don't think this is worth a deed at such a high level.
Dizzying Defense: Well.. with a few ranks in Acrobatics this is +6 AC... but umm... yeah swift action, costs panache, no AoOs.... If this was just a flat +4 AC bonus for a point.. I still probably wouldn't use it.
Perfect Thrust: Ummm.. does it feel like the deeds get worse as you level? It does to me. This is not bad for a gunslinger who wants to save ammo, or doesn't have free action reloads, he is hitting touch AC at range.... I mean this, for any melee character, is not good.
Swashbuckler's Edge: Yep... its an issue with the skill system as a whole. Its the main rogue problem. They get all these skills, but after level 10, only UMD and opposed checks are anything but trivial. That is a pathfinder/3.0/3.5/D20 problem, but it does make this underwhelming.
Cheat Death: I actually like the flavor here. If, just once, in a campaign somewhere, a swashbuckler uses this and then walks out of the wreckage of a massive explosion, adjusts his singed feathered hat and looks around at onlookers as if to say "what? Of course I am alive!" Then this is worth having. Mechanically, its pretty weak, but for flavor, I like it.
Deadly Stab: This is never going to get used, and will never be a factor. It should be replaced. Free critical rider maybe?
Stunning Stab: Same as deadly stab... useless and expensive. Maybe just change both of these to once per day with no panache cost?
The core rulebooks are supposed to be the baseline for power.That might have been the idea 4 years ago, but things now are not like that. They have rised the power of allmost all classes and to ignore that is bad.
For example it would be terrible to balance the investigator agaistn the core rogue.
I think by Core Rulebooks, most of us mean:
Core RulebookBeastiaries
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Magic
Adv. Players Guide
Adv. Race Guide
Ultimate Equipment
Advanced Class Guide will be added to that list. These are all the hardcover books that make up the non-setting-specific rules for pathfinder. I don't think anyone is saying to just use the Core Rulebook only, but rather the core rulebooks, plural.
It may be derail and i apologise for it but what did Frank Trollman say?Sure you can houserule the worst offenders into place, but that doesn't mean they aren't broken. Anything that needs fixing is broken by definition, and let's not forget about the Oberoni Fallacy.
One major purpose of playtesting is to break the game, for reasons that should be obvious. That the developers are insisting that we stick to Core only when making comparisons almost makes me believe what Frank Trollman said about Pathfinder's initial playtest.
This comes from a forum called The Gaming Den, and I take it with a pile of salt because no links or screenshots are provided. And because the site is pretty hostile to Pathfinder in general. But for what it's worth, here it is:
"Destructive playtesting was not only not encouraged, it was actively and specifically rejected. The Paizo leadership only wanted to hear about whether people had fun or not. Which means that the most pried playtest reports were seriously ones in which the players spent all night in immersive roleplaying or where the fun centered around "awesome" artifacts that broke the rules. In short - things that didn't use the rules at all and didn't demonstrate anything. People who actually ran apples to apples comparisons, same game tests, or repeated experiments to get controlled results or regressed bugs were not only ignored, they were banned from their forums.
Their playtest was a marketing ploy and nothing more. It was never intended to uncover problems or produce real results."
I'd take anything said by a guy with Troll in his last name with more than just a pinch of salt.
To get me to trust anything from that shithole of a forum would require you to DROWN me in the stuff.
Things and stuffsDerring-do: Yep, I never like abilities that just don't scale up at all. With signature deed... kinda neat? But there are many better places to put signature deed or the feat.
"This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other effect that reduces the amount of panache a deed costs."
I really don't understand why it has that restriction, particularly since the situations you'd want it are all times when you can't really make another attempt if you fail, but it's on there.
Lord Malkov, you're missing some info on your Swordlord build, I think.
Steel Net (Ex): At 7th level, a swordlord can throw up a blazing wall of steel to defend himself. When fighting defensively as a full-round action with a dueling sword, the swordlord’s penalties on all attacks in a round are reduced by 2, and the dodge bonus to AC is increased by 2 for the same round.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2.
Counterattack (Ex): At 11th level, a swordlord can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action against an opponent who hits the swordlord with a melee attack, so long as the attacking creature is within the swordlord’s reach.
This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
The Crane Style tree reduces the penalty when Fighting Defensively by -3, down to -1 on attacks, and the bonus is increased by +1. That combined with the Steel Net ability, means the penalty is reduced by a further -2 and the bonus is increased by +2.
So all total, you reduce the penalty from Fighting Defensively by 5, and increase the Dodge bonus by +3. Combine that with the +1 Dodge bonus from having ranks in Acrobatics, you gain no penalty to attack and a +6 Dodge bonus to AC.
Also, Counterattack triggers on an attack roll that hits you, while Crane Wing can deflect the first attack that hits you. So that first attack that hits you is not only deflected, it triggers two attack of opportunities, 1 frome Crane Riposte and 1 from Counterattack.
A Swordlord is a more defensively focused melee opponent, instead of offensive. However, if you build him right, his defense can become his offense.
It's also worth noting that the Aldori Swordlord Prestige Class also has an ability called Adaptive Tactics which can be used to reduce the penalty from Combat Expertise to further bump the Swordlord's Dodge bonus.
[Edit] By build him right, dip MoMS for 2 levels and take Snake Fang and Snake Sidewind after taking Snake Style using your normal feats. With this way, every attack that misses, triggers an AoO, and any attack that hits, would trigger another two AoO. By being extremely defensive, you deny the enemy his normal hits, while countering with your AoO. Then, you get your own full attack off.
It's kind of an a+#$#+# move that screws GMs. I've considered using it against my party just to mess with their heads.
Lord Malkov, you're missing some info on your Swordlord build, I think.
Steel Net (Ex): At 7th level, a swordlord can throw up a blazing wall of steel to defend himself. When fighting defensively as a full-round action with a dueling sword, the swordlord’s penalties on all attacks in a round are reduced by 2, and the dodge bonus to AC is increased by 2 for the same round.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2.
Counterattack (Ex): At 11th level, a swordlord can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action against an opponent who hits the swordlord with a melee attack, so long as the attacking creature is within the swordlord’s reach.
This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
The Crane Style tree reduces the penalty when Fighting Defensively by -3, down to -1 on attacks, and the bonus is increased by +1. That combined with the Steel Net ability, means the penalty is reduced by a further -2 and the bonus is increased by +2.
So all total, you reduce the penalty from Fighting Defensively by 5, and increase the Dodge bonus by +3. Combine that with the +1 Dodge bonus from having ranks in Acrobatics, you gain no penalty to attack and a +6 Dodge bonus to AC.
Also, Counterattack triggers on an attack roll that hits you, while Crane Wing can deflect the first attack that hits you. So that first attack that hits you is not only deflected, it triggers two attack of opportunities, 1 frome Crane Riposte and 1 from Counterattack.
A Swordlord is a more defensively focused melee opponent, instead of offensive. However, if you build him right, his defense can become his offense.
It's also worth noting that the Aldori Swordlord Prestige Class also has an ability called Adaptive Tactics which can be used to reduce the penalty from Combat Expertise to further bump the Swordlord's Dodge bonus.
I was using the Swordlord Prestige Class, not the fighter archtype. I was avoiding archtypes for the moment. They are called the same thing so that can provide some confusion.
Also, I did not have Crane Riposte for the counter on that build, so the penalty reduction for fighting defensively would come from the swordlord PrC ability "adaptive tactics" and the Crane Style feat only.
These aren't meant to necessarily be the "best" most optimal builds. They are really just there for points of comparison and to help me take a longer look at the Swashbuckler as a class.
If I were building this character, I would take the Fighter Archtype up to level 5, jump into the PrC for 2 levels, jump back out for 2 more levels of fighter(swordlord archtype), and then continue on with the PrC.
I am trying to take an honest look at the swashbuckler class. There are a lot of variables here and they are worth dissecting. So far, it seems pretty good. Frankly I never thought otherwise. I am still just concerned that swashbuckler are going to take armor feats (or dip a level of cavalier or something) to get heavy armor. This is where rogues sort of ended up. 1 lvl fighter dip, heavy armor and a big two-hander with the scout archtype ends up being a great build. TWF with daggers, light armor and a high dex ends up being... pretty lousy. That sucks IMO. The theme of the class should match up with the "best" way to build it. I want the best swashbuckler to be all dex and charisma, not all strength and no charisma.
To illustrate my point, I will use MechE's swashbuckler and flip some stats in my next Post.
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This comes from a forum called The Gaming Den, and I take it with a pile of salt because no links or screenshots are provided. And because the site is pretty hostile toPathfinderlife in general.
FTFY
That is one of the most negative rpg sites ever created, I'm not sure why they play games, they seem unable to have fun.
It may be derail and i apologise for it but what did Frank Trollman say?Sure you can houserule the worst offenders into place, but that doesn't mean they aren't broken. Anything that needs fixing is broken by definition, and let's not forget about the Oberoni Fallacy.
One major purpose of playtesting is to break the game, for reasons that should be obvious. That the developers are insisting that we stick to Core only when making comparisons almost makes me believe what Frank Trollman said about Pathfinder's initial playtest.
This comes from a forum called The Gaming Den, and I take it with a pile of salt because no links or screenshots are provided. And because the site is pretty hostile to Pathfinder in general. But for what it's worth, here it is:
"Destructive playtesting was not only not encouraged, it was actively and specifically rejected. The Paizo leadership only wanted to hear about whether people had fun or not. Which means that the most pried playtest reports were seriously ones in which the players spent all night in immersive roleplaying or where the fun centered around "awesome" artifacts that broke the rules. In short - things that didn't use the rules at all and didn't demonstrate anything. People who actually ran apples to apples comparisons, same game tests, or repeated experiments to get controlled results or regressed bugs were not only ignored, they were banned from their forums.
Their playtest was a marketing ploy and nothing more. It was never intended to uncover problems or produce real results."
Thanks. Kind of you to respond:)
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SO, root of the issue here. Str and heavy armor vs. dex and light armor....TWF versus one-handing (yes even with precise strike, worth looking at)
SO this is the Human Swash that MechE posted:
Human Swashbuckler 6
Stats: Str 12, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 12
Init: +9
AC: 27, Touch: 19, Flat-Footed: 19 (+5 Armor, +6 Dex, +2 Shield, +1 Deflection, +1 Natural Armor, +2 Dodge)
HP: 64
Fort: +8, Ref: +13, Will: +6 +2 vs Fear Effects
Melee: +1 Rapier +15/+10 (1d6+11/15-20 x2)
Swashbuckler Weapon Training, Nimble +1
Skills: Acrobatics: +12, Diplomacy: +10, Escape Artist: +12, Perception: +10
Feats: Weapon Focus - Rapier, Weapon Specialization - Rapier, Dodge, Improved Critical, Toughness, Great Fortitude
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Notable Gear: +1 Rapier, +1 Mithral Chainshirt, +1 Buckler, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Deflection, +2 Cloak of Protetcion, +2 Belt of Dexterity
Now here is what happens when we just dip one level of cavalier.. a class that adds nothing really except proficiencies... terrible option right?
Well here goes.
Human Swashbuckler 6
Stats: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 12
Init: +3
AC: 25, Touch: 12, Flat-Footed: 24 (+10 Armor, +1 Dex, +2 Shield, +1 Deflection, +1 Natural Armor)
HP: 64
Fort: +9, Ref: +7, Will: +5 +1 vs Fear Effects
Melee(Power Attack): +1 Rapier +13/+8 (1d6+19/15-20 x2)
(Damage Breakdown: +4 power attack, +6 str, +1 training, +5 precise strike, +1 weapon, +2 weapon spec.)
Swashbuckler Weapon Training, Nimble +1(unused)
Skills: Climb: +15, Diplomacy: +10, Acrobatics: +10, Perception: +10
Feats: Weapon Focus - Rapier, Outflank(bonus), Weapon Specialization - Rapier, Power Attack, Improved Critical, Great Fortitude
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Notable Gear: +1 Rapier, +1 Full Plate, +1 Buckler, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Deflection, +2 Cloak of Protetcion, +2 Belt of Strength
Note: I am ignoring the mount, challenge and order abilities because I just don't care.
So, what the difference?
Dex swash has +2 AC, -1 Fort, +6 on reflex saves, +1 will. That is the major stuff.
I think we were using AC 20 yes?
So this Human Swash has a DPR of 19.58
With crits factored: 22.39
Str Swash makes use of his strength skills. He has less movement in heavy armor (and would be better built as a dwarf. If this were a dwarf, this character would have better saves in the end than the dex swash, but I digress).
Strong Swash DPR is 25.88
With crits factored (his are much better): 31.00
So the strong swash loses 2 points of AC and a big hit to reflex saves, but his DPR is more than 50% higher.
Against un-crittable targets this gets even worse for the Dex swash, whose damage per hit goes down to 1d6+5 while strong swash is dealing out 1d6+14. (so 8.5 avg versus 17.5 avg.)
So, just looking at both builds as frontline combatants, things look pretty good for strong swash here. That doesn't invalidate a dex build but it does raise questions. The armor penalties to movement and checks can be vastly reduced at higher levels.
Things and stuffsDerring-do: Yep, I never like abilities that just don't scale up at all. With signature deed... kinda neat? But there are many better places to put signature deed or the feat."This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other effect that reduces the amount of panache a deed costs."
I really don't understand why it has that restriction, particularly since the situations you'd want it are all times when you can't really make another attempt if you fail, but it's on there.
Read the first page, it was changed to be able to reduce it.
Malkov: I see what you're getting at, and it's an interesting build (cavalier-swashbucklers mesh nicely), but I think it steps away from what we're trying to explore here, which is an undipped swashbuckler. Can you build a level 6 strength-based straight up version that isn't a dwarf using a pick?
He was using a rapier, and not two-handing anything. That was a pretty straight up exchange, trade dex for strength and dodge for power attack.
If you go undipped the strength swash I posted will actually be dealing better damage by 1 point (from 1 extra swash level for precise strike)
But he loses heavy armor. Ideally then, he would just spend feats on armor proficiencies.
It occurs to me now that I am missing a feat up there, should be Human, 1st, 3rd, Swashbuckler bonus at 4th, 5th and I only took 4 feats... the teamwork feat was a bonus from cavalier.
But that makes things a little easier, I would just add Medium Armor proficiency onto that list, then grab a Mithral Breastplate (can't afford an enchantment) instead of full-plate. The bonus here would be that it counts as light so nimble would apply.
The build would look like this:
Human Swashbuckler 6
Stats: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 12
Init: +3
AC: 23, Touch: 12, Flat-Footed: 24 (+5 Armor, +1 Dex, +2 Shield, +1 Deflection, +1 Natural Armor, +2 nimble)
HP: 64
Fort: +8, Ref: +8, Will: +6 +2 vs Fear Effects
Melee(Power Attack): +1 Rapier +13/+8 (1d6+20/15-20 x2)
(Damage Breakdown: +4 power attack, +6 str, +1 training, +5 precise strike, +1 weapon, +2 weapon spec.)
Swashbuckler Weapon Training, Nimble +1(unused)
Skills: Climb: +15, Diplomacy: +10, Acrobatics: +10, Perception: +10
Feats: Weapon Focus - Rapier, Med Armor Prof., Weapon Specialization - Rapier, Power Attack, Improved Critical, Great Fortitude
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith
Notable Gear: +1 Rapier, Mithral BP, +1 Buckler, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Ring of Deflection, +2 Cloak of Protetcion, +2 Belt of Strength
So, very slightly better damage, -2 AC, +1 will, -1 fort, same reflex. (compared to the previous heavy listed who dipped a level of cavalier)
At level 7, this swash could take Heavy Armor Prof to match up to the previous one posted, or he could ride out the mithral BP. In some ways it could be better at high level since he can still benefit from Nimble when wearing it.
The only reason to use a heavy pick is to use two-hands on your weapon, and that needs to get cleared up in Precise Strike as not-an-option, and I am sure that it will. Either way, that would be a boost of +5 damage per hit with a loss of 2 more AC, so the Swash in that case becomes more in line with a two-handed fighter with a slightly lower AC, more skills, and deeds.
If this doesn't get cleared up, then that swash is swinging for 1d6+25 at 6th level, which is pretty nutso.
EDIT: It also wasn't a Dwarf, I was just saying that it woould be better as a dwarf to help those terrible swashbuckler saving throws... but I sort of feel this way about dex based swashbucklers too.
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Malkov: I see what you're getting at, and it's an interesting build (cavalier-swashbucklers mesh nicely), but I think it steps away from what we're trying to explore here, which is an undipped swashbuckler. Can you build a level 6 strength-based straight up version that isn't a dwarf using a pick?
We're finding holes in the swashbuckler. If the class works better by dipping and putting points into no-trope stats, that is a hole.
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Thankfully, having only strength is as far away from the trope as having little strength.
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I think more than a few of the Swashbuckler's deeds could use some revision in the action required to use them. Immediate and swift actions are ok at first glance, but reduce action-economy for a class that needs more mobility.
Recovery - should be accessible as an immediate action, but somehow calculated as free action. To avoid signature deed abuse, allow the bonus and movement rate to increase with level or additional expenditure of pinache. This way you can escape from reach by using more pinache (I think this ability should grow into Dizzying Defense somehow).
Menacing Swordplay: should be a free action.
Targeted Strike: standard, not full round.
Dizzying Defense: free action, maybe just a straight +4 dodge bonus like a monk's ki option. Also offered at lower level (see Recovery).
At the risk of sounding snarky, I have to say it: Screw the trope, MAD is bad. If some transient and subjective "flavor" is lost, it'll be worth it if it helps the class mechanically.
Let the Swashbuckler leave Strength at 10, which after all is average. In practice, I doubt many people are going to dump Strength to 7 and ride the very limit of their Light Load, which puts them one point of Strength damage and one poor Fort save away from being crippled.
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We're finding holes in the swashbuckler. If the class works better by dipping and putting points into no-trope stats, that is a hole.
I believe all straight, undipped classes should have holes. Patching them with a level in another class makes it harder to see real problems.
Malkov, I should have explained why I didn't want to see the dwarf pick build. 1. I think we both agree two-handing a pick shouldn't be an option for a swashbuckler. 2. I personally think using dwarf race conceals the poor will save concerns.
SO, root of the issue here. Str and heavy armor vs. dex and light armor....TWF versus one-handing (yes even with precise strike, worth looking at)
So would you suggest then that the Precise Strike class feature have a qualifier in it regarding armor limitations?
"The Swashbuckler can only use Precise Strike while wearing light or no armor and carrying a light load."
You'd still get some benefit from the medium armor proficiency feat (or a dip that granted it) as you could wear mithril breast plate without a problem.
Edit
Malkov, I should have explained why I didn't want to see the dwarf pick build. 1. I think we both agree two-handing a pick shouldn't be an option for a swashbuckler. 2. I personally think using dwarf race conceals the poor will save concerns.
1. I agree - Precise Strike should have a qualifying line in it about wielding a weapon in one hand.
2. Dwarf does help to conceal the poor will save, but that's ok for the specific build he posted. Everyone knows their saves (fort and will) are a liability - I just hope the Swashbuckler can get some help in that regard. If not, It'll be hard for me to play a Swashbuckler without taking both Iron Will and Great Fortitude...|
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I am undecided on an armor restriction for precise strike. I think precise strike should be limited to its own weapons group, rather than the current wording that opens up pick, short spears, and morningstars. Maybe a slightly expanded version of the light blades group, adding cutlass, saber, or whatnot.
As it is, celestial armor is better then a mithril breastplate (until you want to go above a +3 bonus), and does not require a medium armor proficiency.
Thankfully, having only strength is as far away from the trope as having little strength.
Well, these aren't things that either build will tank. I would expect to start with a 12 dex and go up to a 14 with a belt of perfection with a strength build, same as a fighter.
With a dex build I would probably shoot for a 13 to start for power attack and go to a 15 or 16 by level 12.
And the dip issue is very real. Heck, 2 levels of paladin for heavy armor and divine grace... saving throws get a huge bump and reward a good charisma. You are 2 levels behind on swashbuckler, but the deeds go downhill from level 7 onward IMO.
You don't care about nimble, so no issues there. Being strength based, you can easily deal with the 2 damage lost of precise strike, and you are good from lvl 1 unlike a dex based swash.
I mean, seriously, Dwarven Paladin 2, Swashbuckler 10 looks very enticing.
Or you can do what I did and dip one level of Cavalier.
You could also dip 1 level of Armored Hulk Barbarian for your heavy armor proficiency and a little bit of rage (7 rounds of rage at level 6 with a one level dip still gives you one encounter per day of big boosts)
OR you can just dip one level of regular barbarian to get medium armor proficiency and fast movement, use a mithral BP and keep your nimble bonuses. Still have that sexy 7 rounds of rage per day at level 6.
There are a lot of options for the strength based fighter, and matter of factly they are all pretty great.
Going back to my previously posted build, with 1 level of armored hulk instead of Cavalier, he can get up to 26 str for 7 rounds. So for one encounter he is up to 26 str and his dpr gets a big fat boost. This is a better trade than a teamwork feat and a mount/order/challenge.
Once this build reaches higher levels, he can reasonably dip another level of barbarian to grab the Superstition rage power (+2 on saves vs spells and supernatural) and another 2 rounds of rage, then take the extra rage feat, so he is up to 15 rounds of rage per day which can easily encompass up to three encounters.
As an armored hulk he then also gets +5 movement in armor.
I have a problem with the efficacy of this plan.
Thankfully, having only strength is as far away from the trope as having little strength.
Not even close.
The trope IS agile. It says
swashbucklers rely on speed, agility, and panache.
Swashbucklers dart in and out of the fray, wearing down
their opponents with annoying lunges and feints, and
foiling the powerful attacks with a flick of the wrist and
a flash of the blade before delivering a fatal riposte that
is carnage made an art form
It is NOT the giant brute that optimization currently makes it, nor is it the swimmers build balancing strength and finesse that you seem to be pushing for, for reasons I can't fathom. While in real life both strength and finesse are important to a swordsman the current system simply doesn't support it. Someone putting their pointbuy/lucky roll into one stat along with their magic items, buffs, inherent bonuses, is going to vastly outstrip a balanced build pumping 2 attributes. The best swashbucklers we currently have are uber strength, charisma dumped stabbing machines. If giving that up means that strength gets dumped then I can't see the loss... at all. Inigo Montoya, Reepicheap, puss in boots, Errol Flynn, Zorro, Will from pirates of the caribean aren't exactly huge.
SO, root of the issue here. Str and heavy armor vs. dex and light armor....TWF versus one-handing (yes even with precise strike, worth looking at)So would you suggest then that the Precise Strike class feature have a qualifier in it regarding armor limitations?
"The Swashbuckler can only use Precise Strike while wearing light or no armor and carrying a light load."
You'd still get some benefit from the medium armor proficiency feat (or a dip that granted it) as you could wear mithril breast plate without a problem.
Edit
Malkov, I should have explained why I didn't want to see the dwarf pick build. 1. I think we both agree two-handing a pick shouldn't be an option for a swashbuckler. 2. I personally think using dwarf race conceals the poor will save concerns.1. I agree - Precise Strike should have a qualifying line in it about wielding a weapon in one hand.
2. Dwarf does help to conceal the poor will save, but that's ok for the specific build he posted. Everyone knows their saves (fort and will) are a liability - I just hope the Swashbuckler can get some help in that regard. If not, It'll be hard for me to play a Swashbuckler without taking both Iron Will and Great Fortitude...
Hmmm, I don't know about an armor restriction for precise strike specifically, but a light armor restriction that applies to ALL deeds might be in order. There is precedent from Ranger, and deeds are just one piece of the class. Monks have to deal with a similar issue, and a Mithral Breastplate would still be doable.
That doesn't fix the Str vs. Dex issue as I see it though. I still think there need to be more deeds that scale based on dex or charisma. Or maybe just state that precise strike damage is in place of strength? Uggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.
I think swashbuckler class features tied to light armor is a start. I think perhaps that adding a clause to Precise Strike that says "when using weapon finesse" might fix this whole thing actually.
As it stands, an Armored Hulk barbarian 2 that goes over to swashbuckler does not lose enough for stepping way outside the proper theme of the class IMO.
Uggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.
Why is that a problem?
Uggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.Why is that a problem?
Because "obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent".
Edit: Yes, that quote is on a different topic, but I suspect that the same logic would hold true.
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Okay, so now that I have brought it up twice, I think further exploration is in order for looking at a Barbarian 2, Swashbuckler 10.
I hate this mash-up because it is a Barbarian!!! It is the antithesis of swashbuckler, but mechanically, they match up beautifully. So lets investigate
Level 12 human barbarian 2/swashbuckler 10
Str:24 (+2 race, +2 belt, +3 levels)
Dex:14 (+2 belt)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:8
Feats:
H. Power Attack
1. Weapon Focus Rapier
3. Iron Will
5. Extra Rage
6. swash bonus (Weapon Spec. Rapier)
7. Extra Panache/Grit
9. Extra Rage
10. swash bonus (Greater Weapon Focus)
11. Great Fortitude
Features: Rage (21 rounds per day), Rage Power (Superstition +2), Fast Movement +10, Uncanny Dodge, Bravery +3, Nimble +2, Weapon Training +2
Gear:
+3 mithral breastplate
+2 furious rapier
+3 buckler
+2 belt of physical perfection
+3 cloak of resistance
+1 RoP
+1 AoNA
Gloves of Dueling
Headband of Havoc (Superstition)
Other stuff
From now on I am going to assume that I am raging pretty much all the time with 25 rounds per day, that is not far fetched at all. I will list both sets of bonuses though.
DEFENSES
HP: 121
AC: 29 (10, +9 armor, +4 buckler, +2 dex, +2 nimble, +1 ring, +1 ammy)
Fort:14 Ref:12 Will:9
OFFENSE
Rapier Attack +23/+18/+13 (+12 BAB, +7 str, +2 focus feats, +2 weapon, +4 training, -4 power attack)
Damage: 1d6 + 23 + 10 (15-20/x2)
RAGING DEFENSES
HP: 145
AC: 27
Fort:16 Ref:12 Will:11 (+3 to saves versus spells and supernatural)
RAGING OFFENSE
Rapier Attack +27/+22/+17
Damage: 1d6 + 27 + 10 (15-20/x2)
CR 12 average, same as before AC 28
Raging Full attack DPR: 91.125
With crits factored: 109.65 (yowza!)
To go one step further, we have 3 panache, so we can use pommel swipe pretty regularly (chance to get 1 confirmed crit per round is 49.3% so lets say this happens once every other round and cut the DPR add in half)
So on a round that he pommel swipes, DPR add is: 38.48
This is getting silly.
So his DPR in a pommel swipe round is totaled to: 148.13
Yeahh.... something needs to be done about this.
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Uggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.Why is that a problem?Because "obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent".
Edit: Yes, that quote is on a different topic, but I suspect that the same logic would hold true.
There is a VAST difference between obviating the need for strength for everyone with a feat, and eliminating it as a neccesity for a class that is specifically called out as not relying on it.
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Uggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.Why is that a problem?Because "obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent".
Edit: Yes, that quote is on a different topic, but I suspect that the same logic would hold true.
Everyone seems to forget that Porthos was a brute, strength swashbuckler should be a viable build
Everyone seems to forget that Porthos was a brute, strength swashbuckler should be a viable buildUggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.Why is that a problem?Because "obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent".
Edit: Yes, that quote is on a different topic, but I suspect that the same logic would hold true.
Strength swashbuckling SHOULD be a viable option, I agree.
Thus, dexterity swashbuckling should also be a viable option, not the only option.
Everyone seems to forget that Porthos was a brute, strength swashbuckler should be a viable build
Ok, so because ONE swashbuckler was a hulk AND for some reason the other 8 full BAB characters won't let you play him, then we need to make the swashbuckler a dex based class in name only...
HOW on earth does that logic even follow?
If you can build a class that will allow both builds, by all means do it.
But if you can make it only one or the other surely you see why it should be dex?
Everyone seems to forget that Porthos was a brute, strength swashbuckler should be a viable buildUggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.Why is that a problem?Because "obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent".
Edit: Yes, that quote is on a different topic, but I suspect that the same logic would hold true.
Porthos is better represented by other classes precisely because of this. Porthos would make a very good Urban Barbarian/Raging Drunk.
The thing here is that the strong brute fighter is already VERY well covered ground. The swashbuckler class does not need to cover every lightly armored swordsman from the era of early guns. Rob Roy is a good example here... skilled swordsman, no armor, probably best made as a barbarian not a swashbuckler.
To follow up, the swashbuckler that is being talked about in the all-important class description is one that uses agility and skill OVER brute force. This is pretty specific.... I think it should follow that the best swashbuckler builds adhere to that description.
I just made a lvl 12 swashbarian upthread... and I have to say, I could easily see this becoming a common build.
It has huge offensive output... 1d6+37 per hit? Yeesh... why am I going to build for Dex again?
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Everyone seems to forget that Porthos was a brute, strength swashbuckler should be a viable buildUggh, but then you have the strength dump problem, so that is no good.Why is that a problem?Because "obliviating the need for Strength was not the intent".
Edit: Yes, that quote is on a different topic, but I suspect that the same logic would hold true.
Porthos is better represented by other classes precisely because of this. Porthos would make a very good Urban Barbarian/Raging Drunk.
The thing here is that the strong brute fighter is already VERY well covered ground. The swashbuckler class does not need to cover every lightly armored swordsman from the era of early guns. Rob Roy is a good example here... skilled swordsman, no armor, probably best made as a barbarian not a swashbuckler.
All three (four, actually) musketeers should be viable builds underneath the umbrella of the swashbuckler class. DEX and STR should be useable builds, because CHA is what really matters :)
All three (four, actually) musketeers should be viable builds underneath the umbrella of the swashbuckler class. DEX and STR should be useable builds, because CHA is what really matters :)
And... they're not. Currently the best swashbuckler by head shoulders and loincloth is AM SWASHBUCKLER.
Look, this is like the announcement of an electric car. You keep saying "i want it to seat 8, I want it to seat 8, I want it to seat 8".... as if seating 8 were more important than being an electric car.
All three (four, actually) musketeers should be viable builds underneath the umbrella of the swashbuckler class. DEX and STR should be useable builds, because CHA is what really matters :)And... they're not. Currently the best swashbuckler by head shoulders and loincloth is AM SWASHBUCKLER.
Look, this is like the announcement of an electric car. You keep saying "i want it to seat 8, I want it to seat 8, I want it to seat 8".... as if seating 8 were more important than being an electric car.
The best way to build an electric car is to make it a gasoline engine with a gas tank. :P
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Maybe there should be several ways to make effective swashbucklers: Strength based, Dexterity based, Intelligence based, Charisma based.
With a variety of fighting styles: one-handed, two-weapon fighting, 2-handed weapon (elven curve blade), main-gauche, sword and shield, quarterstaff, unarmed fighting, rapier and cloak, knife fighting, knife throwing, pistol and rapier, etc. etc.
There should also be different roles for the swashbuckler: party face, melee damage dealer, battlefield control, teamwork feat team captain, scout, skirmisher, tank, etc. etc.
Having seen it in action, after level 11, a swashbuckler can shut down any other melee class.
Signature Deed (Opportune Parry). End of fight.
Pump dex, and use up your AoO to shut down any attacks. As long as you pump your to-hit (which you want to do anyway), you can basically shut down that raging barbarian cold. Especially if he uses power attack. I had a playtest this weekend, and the PC Magus ended up in a duel with a swashbuckler. Swashbuckler just shut down every attack he made with Opportune Parry, and used her panache to deal bleed (HP and Str), and to double precise strike damage once per round. She had a wakizashi, so she was critting on a 15+, and replenishing her Panache 1 pt per round on average. Sometimes two points.
The magus spent every arcana point he had, and never did a single HP to her, couldn't even deliver his touch spells, she'd parry those as well.