A question about the update: Does the d10 HD also mean the slayer has full BAB? (normally these are always connected but i don't think i have ever seen a part in the rules where it says they have to be, so I'm asking)
The Slayer has always had full BAB...
EDIT: Ninja'd!
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Personally it should get a max 5d6 sneak attack but it's chosen target is always considered flat footed. If the target as uncanny dodge then the slayer has to be a level higher for it to work. Basically it studies a target in knows where too consistently strike it to get sneak attack damage.
This is an idea I like, though I am afraid that this may space out sneak attack dice too much. A talent that allows a Slayer to always sneak attack their favored target would be nice and much preferred.
A question about the update: Does the d10 HD also mean the slayer has full BAB? (normally these are always connected but i don't think i have ever seen a part in the rules where it says they have to be, so I'm asking)The Slayer has always had full BAB...
EDIT: Ninja'd!
Okay thanks, my bad then, I don't have the pdf at hand and had it in my memory that the slayer had 3/4 BAB. Maybe I looked at the Hit die and after seeing a d8 i didn't even look at the BAB table anymore.
That makes it a lot better than I thought.
Edited... yeah that's supposed to be the first level feat. However the current build has no room for ITWF which is a bummer. But if it works out the way I think it does opportunist is just plain better.
Also the build borrows heavily from STRranger's TWF ranger so credit where credit is due...
From a DPR perspective the build might actually be better if it dropped TWF all together and stuck with Falchion and a high STR but I haven't done the math. I don't think there is a reach weapon with 18-20 crit range but that of course would be perfect for the build. A build that forgoes TWF could incorporate Lookout for surprise round full round actions. That would be very slayersque but prolly better suited to an Archery build.
Thankyou.
You borrowed a Tactic from my handbook but the build is all yours. Nice.I normally avoid Finesse cause I prefer Str Ranger's of course. ;)
I actually think this class is pretty damn sweet as is.
Thankyou.
You borrowed a Tactic from my handbook but the build is all yours. Nice.
I normally avoid Finesse cause I prefer Str Ranger's of course. ;)I actually think this class is pretty damn sweet as is.
I was thinking about the STR Focus as well but really the slayer is prolly better off focusing on DEX. For one you have 2 built in damage boosts so your damage per hit while sneaking is quite nice.
Second you essentially have Weapon Finesse as a free bonus feat. I know you don't have to take it but really as is from an optimization perspective the slayer offers too few good Talents. This might change with the final version however.Third you have to qualify for TWF somehow, while the slayer is not a super mad class you can really only dump CHA.
Fourth. As a slayer you really want to be good at stealthing.
I think you could prolly build an excellent STR based slayer focusing on natural attacks however. Anyways the class gets medium armor so that's definetly an option.
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There's some polish needed with this class, but the very fact that people have different and sensible build ideas suggest it is viable.
The class is martial with no spells. We know that it will not be superpowerful due to tiers, that's fine.
With a few tweaks, it does what it sets out to do, and aside from positioning for SA, it seems like quite an easy class for a new player and especially nice for GMs to unleash as an assassin enemy.
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Coridan's thoughts on the Slayer:
This class is pretty good mechanically. I would like it to get the poison use we are strippin from the Investigator. My onky concern is with the party role. Essentially this is a Serial Killer base class. He might be more fitting as an evil PrC (like some sort of...assassin). Maybe we csn lighten him up a bit, make him more of a scout/skirmisher than a killer?
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I definitely want to add to the list of slayer talents, and I welcome cool suggestions for them. :)
Off the top of my head (forgive me if I overlap existing talents, as I haven't been able to read the document since Tuesday):
• Slayer's Charge: Once per day when you charge, you may choose to increase the penalty to your armor class by –2. If you do, the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against that charge.
• Press the Advantage: You gain Gang Up as a bonus feat, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.
• Combat Style: Select a ranger combat style. You gain one of the 2nd-level feats for that style, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.
• Improved Combat Style: You must be at least 6th level and possess the Combat Style talent to select this talent. You gain one of the 6th-level feats for the combat style you selected with the Combat Style talent, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.
• Greater Combat Style: You must be at least 11th level and possess the Improved Combat Style talent to select this talent. You gain one of the 11th-level feats for the combat style you selected with the Combat Style talent, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.
• Diverse Talent: You gain any single Rogue Talent or Ninja Trick for which you qualify.
• Disembowel: Once per day when you confirm a critical hit with a sneak attack, you may multiply the sneak attack damage along with the regular damage.
• Deadly Blade: You gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency with one weapon of your choice that deals slashing damage.
• Infiltrator: You gain the trapfinding ability, as the rogue class feature of the same name.
• Deadly Opportunism: Whenever you make an attack of opportunity, you may choose to take a penalty on the attack equal to the number of sneak attack dice you have. If you do, the target loses its Dexterity bonus to AC against that attack.
• Vicious Maneuver: Choose one type of combat maneuver. Whenever you successfully perform the selected maneuver, you also deal sneak attack damage to the target.
• Look for Holes: When you designate an enemy as your favored target, you may choose to forego the usual benefits and instead deal sneak attack damage with all successful attacks against that target, even when you are not flanking the target and it is not denied its Dexterity bonus to armor class. You must make this choice at the time you select that enemy as your favored target.
• Focused Sneak: When you make an attack that would normally qualify for sneak attack (whether because you're flanking the target or because it is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC) you may choose to forego your sneak attack damage and instead gain a bonus on the attack and damage roll equal to your favored target bonus. If the enemy is already your favored target, these bonuses stack. You must choose to use this ability before the attack roll is made.
How do those look?
What if they just got some slayer talents that let them get sneak attack more easily?
I mean, Scouts Charge and Skirmisher are required reading for the rogue... its the issue I am having trying to put together a build.
I have put together a few builds (I don't dump stats below a 10 so they aren't absolute max dpr) and TWF with TW-Feint is basically the best I could do so far.
The problem I am having is that Favored Target is taking up a swift action, and when I am comparing a fighter at 10+, its impossible to not give the fighter gloves of dueling.
This means that Weapon Training and Favored Target are interechangeable when looking at the builds... but the Slayer ends up being really feat starved while the fighter doesn't.
Trying to consistently get sneak attack also has far less payoff when you are at this lower progression. You basically need to TWF to make favored target a major impact on the class. If you don't then it isn't that big of a deal. Its nice but it isn't huge. This forces me to look at a Slayer compared to a fighter, and it starts to feel like the slayer is based on the fighter, but loses HAP, Armor Training, and 4 feats on the way to level 12 (assuming you take weapon training, combat trick and feat talents on the way there) to get 4d6 sneak attack and 3 talents.
Which makes me start to wonder if 1d6 sneak attack is worth a feat. If it IS then I think I would rather see the Slayer get sneak attack from a stackable Talent, and get better baseline combat options. This way, they can choose to take it or not. The can focus on it by spending more resources, and match rogue progression, or they can let it slip.
Overall, if you can guarantee that you are going to have someone casting greater invisibility on you or you have a guaranteed flank partner, then the slayer can be pretty good I guess.
Its important to dissect the damage that they are actually getting though, because as stated this is effectively +21 dmg spread over 20 levels. So, this is right on par with a smite or challenge ability, and I wonder if the Slayer shouldn't just get something like that. It fits with their ability to pick out a target with Favored Target.
I think its a good list
Here's a sort of gimmick build that I'm sure could be improved on since I spent a boatload of feats on feinting.
Tiefling Slayer lvl 12.
Str 10
dec 22 (28) (2 race, 3 levels)
con 14
int 13
wis 9
cha 10 (12)
Feats/Talents:
1 Combat Ex
2 Fast stealth
3 Blind Fight
4 Finesse Slayer
5 Moonlight Stalker
6 Combat Trick: Moonlight Stalker Feint
7 Improved Feint
8 Foil Scrutiny
9 Greater Feint
10 Feat: EWP CurveBlade, why not
11 Power Attack
12 Hunter’s Surprise
Gear:
+6 belt of Dex
+2 Headband of Charisma
+2 cloak of resistance
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armor
Circlet of persuasion
+2 mithral breastplate
+1 Agile Elven Curveblade
DEFENSES
AC: 25
Fort:+13 Ref:+19 Will:+5
HP: 106
OFFENSIVE SERIES
Drop the Darkness, fast stealth in, mark targets
Full-Attack Sequence
Feint +22 (12 ranks, +3 probably will be a class skill or take a trait, +2 headband, +3 circlet, +2 foil scrutiny
Attacks: 23/18/13 (+12 BAB, +9 Dex, +3 target, +1 Weapon, +2 Stalker, -4 PA)
Damage: 1d10+25+4d6 (+9 Dex, +1 Weapon, +12 PA, +3 target)
Avg Dmg/hit: 44.5
15% chance of crit, I don't know the number, but you could swap out PowerAttack for Imp Crit, and make that 30%. Or swap it for fiendish darkness if you have no other way to make it dark. But that won't positively affect the math here.
And in addition to that, your enemy can't see you. If they do have DV, get a wand of blur with that left over cash.
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We are currently working on modules from one to twenty to test out our classes, starting, as many people have, with Crypt of the Everflame. This party consists of a warpriest, investigator, slayer, and hunter, and I am currently playing the slayer and investigator. I did not build to break, as I am playing the way I normally would; I make a character and optimize for that character's roleplay and combat ability, in that order. If their roleplay IS combat ability, then I build for it. We are not doing scenario play, though we are building with a 15 point buy, and standard gold for the classes. No race limit, 15 RP and lower races, mostly standard. So far we have two aasimar, a tiefling, and a human. Onto the feedback!
The martial weapon proficiencies do help off-set the fact that favored target gives very little in the way of combat usefulness at low levels. I was the hardest hitting person in my party, not because of the class ability, but because I was using a longsword vs their scimitars and sword canes. Even 1 dice of sneak attack early on could have helped to bring this class in line as the killer it was brought up to be in the fluff. They could get it every 4 or 5 levels and wind up with less sneak dice in the end and it would still help to have that ONE sneak dice early on. They're very lightly front-loaded in comparison to a lot of the classes, so there's definitely room for it.
I do like favored target, I wasn't complaining about that ability so much as their damage output. As it grows it will become greatly useful, and the versatility of being able to pick and choose targets is phenomenal. I understand why it's not as powerful as favored enemy, in that you can study as a move action and pick anyone or anything to have those bonuses applied to.
Their skill set felt a little strange to not have bluff; for a class that has sneak attack, even at later levels, it feels odd that they can't feint as effectively as a rogue, bard, investigator, or vivisectionist. The favored target will eventually help off-set that but not early on enough for it to make a large difference.
Their talent selection is very limited in the way of actual choice. I picked the combat talent for my first one because none of the others really seemed appropriate, or that I couldn't use them yet because I had no sneak attack dice. There ARE talents that chance or use sneak dice but as you do not get any sneak dice right away the first talent choice is almost always going to be combat trick; so much to the point that you could honestly just give them a ranger's combat style feat or A bonus combat feat at that level instead of a talent.
I do like the class and what I've seen of it so far; I was able to make a character effectively that I have been trying to for a long while (an up-and-coming tracker/assassin-in-the-making, rogue didn't feel right, he wasn't woodsy enough to be a ranger, and not SO combat focused as to be a fighter), so this class definitely has a niche to fill, but I find I'm liking its potential more than its actual ability so far.
Three talents I think the Slayer should really have:
* the rogue talent Ledge Walker (but it should really include uneven surfaces too, not just narrow ones)
* the rogue talent Face in the Crowd
* a talent that gives a climb speed at one-half your land speed (which presumably could end up on the rogue talent list too)
This way a Slayer can properly make like an Assassin's Creed character and run, jump, and climb over everything while being inexplicably stealthy and unnoticed.
What if they just got some slayer talents that let them get sneak attack more easily?I'd be curious as to your opinions on the list of ideas I posted directly above your post.
Some good stuff, some bad.
Its a good idea to always avoid the 1/day talents. The rogue community has shown that these are very undesirable unless VERY powerful.
On this list, if I have to say that Vicious Maneuver is the one that I would be most drawn to. Since attack bonuses also apply to CMB, this would make the Slayer pretty great at maneuvers.
Trading out favored target for SA though is not a great option.
Here's why.
Say I am a 12th level Slayer.
Favored Target: +3/+3
Sneak attack avg dmg: 14
Power Attack with a two-hander + favored target: -1/+15
Sacrifice Favored Target with a two-hander: +0/+14
A TWF slayer just like any other TWF can't afford to be power attacking on most swings, and the tradeoff here would be too much like PA.
Effectively, you would be getting -3 to hit for +11 dmg at 12th.
With TWF, this is doable if you aren't power attacking, and it would be better for offhand strikes, but it is one of those things that looks better on paper than it would be in practice.
As far as the charge idea, Scout-Rogue already gets this ability in place of uncanny dodge, and it has the huge benefit of adding that the target is treated as flat-footed (fueling Sap Master).
I think I would like to see these as Talents:
Strong Impression (as the rogue talent)
Erratic Charge: When you charge an opponent, you can spend a swift action to Feint that target.
Bullying Blow: When you hit your Favored Target you can forgo the bonus to damage granted by Favored Target in order to make an Intimidate check to demoralize your foe as a free action.
Slayer Style: Same thing you said.
Improved Sneak Attack: Your sneak attack damage is increased by 1d6. You must have the Sneak Attack class feature before taking this talent.
Advanced Talents:
Skirmisher: Whenever you move more than 10 feet in a round and make an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If you make more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
Rapid Sniper: When you are Sniping, you may forgo the attack at your highest base attack bonus in order to combine a full-attack action with a stealth check to snipe.
Brutality: When attacking your favored targets, you are treated as having the Shatter Defenses feat.
Vicious Sneak: Your sneak attack dice become d8s instead of d6s
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Suggestion to the Developers.
For the Slayer (really for all classes that dupe some of another classes options like Rage Powers or Rogue Talents), instead of reprinting the rogue talents that are takable by the Slayer, just list them all by name in one paragraph and reference the Rogue. This will save space for new Slayer talents, and not make people feel like they're getting the same stuff over and over again.
I think given the feat limitations, THF would be the way to go. Yes this is counter intuitive with the rogue logic of get as many sneak attacks as possible, but this is a full BaB class that gets bonuses to attack and damage, in addition to sneak attack.
The less attacks you make, the less Favored Target gives you benefits. At 10th level if you make 4 attacks thats a net total of 12 bonus damage whereas if your two handing you get 6 bonus damage. Now this is a bit skewed but if you have a +6 Str Bonus then it still falls a bit short.
Str 22
TWF: 9/9/9/9
THF: 12/12
And I like having a class thats hard wired to be a two weapon fighter naturally.
I think given the feat limitations, THF would be the way to go. Yes this is counter intuitive with the rogue logic of get as many sneak attacks as possible, but this is a full BaB class that gets bonuses to attack and damage, in addition to sneak attack.
I thought very hard about this. But just for comparison sake, I checked on my old Scout-Rogue Sap Master builds... and the slayer just gets outclassed. He would still be a really good flanker with a two-hander, but the more you minimize the impact of SA and Favored target, the less appealing this class becomes, because those are its only real features.
I can make a level 12 rogue that uses sap master/vital strike and has this attack: +19 for 18d6+42 at level 12.
Dwarf Rogue(Scout)
Str: 20 (2 race, 2 levels, 2 belt)
Dex: 16 (1 levels, 2 belt)
Con: 18 (2 race 2 belt)
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 8 (-2 race)
Feats/Talents:
1:Bludgeoner
2:Weapon Training(Focus Dwarven Longhammer)
3:Sap Adept
4:Combat Trick(Power Attack)
5:Sap Master
6:Offensive Defense
7:Power Attack
8:Strong Impression
9:Vital Strike
10:Feat: Steel Soul
11:Enforcer
12:Entanglement of Blades
Items:
+2 Impact Dwarven Hammer
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Chain Shirt
+3 cloak of resistance
Ring of protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Feather step slippers
Items can and will vary. There is a bunch of money left here because I'm lazy.
Defense:
HP: 117 (12d8+48con+12favored)
AC: 24
Fort: +11(+15sp) Ref: +14(+18sp) Will: +8(+12sp)
Offense:
Skirmisher Vital Strike Attack (non-lethal):
Attack Bonus: +19 (+9 BAB, +5 str, +1 focus, +2 weapon, +2 headband, -0 furious focus)
Damage: 18d6+42, 105 avg. (3d6 weapon, 3d6 vital strike, 6d6 sneak attack, 6d6 sap master, +24 sap adept, +7 strength, +9 power attack, +2 weapon)
I tried to get the same effect out of the slayer, and even though it gets a better BAB, and can be vital striking for 9d6 at level 11, the sneak attack is just too hard to get. Scout archtype means that the rogue just has to move 10ft. The slayer will need a flanking buddy. Otherwise he can try to use imp. feint as a move action to get a single swing for 13d6+30 (75.5 avg) but this doesn't satisfy Sap Master, so he still stays behind.
Not a bad build, and the slayer has a better hit bonus, but its doing 30% less damage.
I am trying here, I really am, but even if this case, a fighter will be doing 9d6+35 or thereabouts with the same build (66.5 avg) and the fighter will have many feats to spare and better defenses. Vital strike, after all, is not a good fighter build.
So, gloves of dueling + weapon training = Favored Target + 1
You end up looking at what the fighter build would be, and trying really hard to find some way to get reliable sneak attack damage... and you just don't have the feats to do it or the archtypes to support it.
For the record, none of the builds I put together are BAD but I still think that with all that the Slayer is sacrificing from Ranger, that it should be a more dominating offensive combat option.
So, I think I might finally have a build.
Lvl 12 Dwarf Slayer
Str: 22 (3 levels, 2 belt)
Dex: 14 (2 belt)
Con: 18 (2 race 2 belt)
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 8 (-2 race)
Feats/Talents:
1: Power Attack
2: Weapon Training(Focus: Dwarven Longhammer)
3: Cleave
4: Combat Trick(Great Cleave)
5: Goblin Cleaver
6: Slowing Strike
7: Orc Hewer
8: Strong Impression
9: Surprise Follow Through
10: Feat: Improved Surprise Follow Through
11: Lunge
12: Opportunist
13: Giant Killer
Items:
+2 Impact Dwarven Hammer
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 Breastplate
+3 cloak of resistance
Ring of protection +2
Amulet of natural armor +2
Feather step slippers
Other stuff... whatever seems good
Defense:
HP: 141 (13d10+48con+13favored)
AC: 24 (20 when cleaving and lunging)
Fort: +15(+17sp) Ref: +13(+15sp) Will: +7(+9sp)
Offense:
BAB: +13
So, with this build, you can lunge and cleave. You have a reach of 15ft, and can make cleave attacks against any large or smaller target within reach (they do not need to be adjacent to each other). When you make a cleave attack, the target is Denied Dex via surprise follow through, granting sneak attack.
Attack Bonus: +21 (+13 BAB, +2 weapon, +6 str, +1 focus, -4 power attack, +3 favored target)
Damage on first hit: 3d6+26 (36.5 avg)
Attack Bonus on Cleave attacks +20
Damage on Cleave Attacks: 7d6+23 (47.5)
this assumes that cleave targets are not affected by favored target, if they are then +3 hit +3 dmg to each
If you can get to a spot where there are three large or smaller enemies within your 15ft reach, then you can crack out 131.5 damage if they all hit.
This just gets higher as you add more target. If the Slayer is simply flanking and full attacking, he is a competent two-handed fighter, attacking for: +25/+20/+15 and 7d6+26 per hit.
In that particular case, (vs CR avg of 28 AC) he has an averaged DPR of about 90.9 (factoring in hit chances)
So, pretty broad sweep of battlefield control
Coridan's thoughts on the Slayer:
This class is pretty good mechanically. I would like it to get the poison use we are strippin from the Investigator.
That... actually makes sense, since this class does seem like one that would use poison for fighting.
My onky concern is with the party role. Essentially this is a Serial Killer base class. He might be more fitting as an evil PrC (like some sort of...assassin). Maybe we csn lighten him up a bit, make him more of a scout/skirmisher than a killer?
I do not agree with this. An archetype to be a scout/skirmisher I would be fine with, but not as the main class. If they hunt evil outsiders while aiding good outsiders, that isn't evil, but they still use their abilities. The class isn't really the Serial Killer class, it's more like a Bounty Hunter, but not necessarily.
@Jiggy - Slayer's Charge is too underwhelming. Maybe if it also granted pounce. You could even make it an advanced talent, since nobody'd want it until maybe 15th. The combat styles, infiltrator and diverse talent are simple and solid, though I'd rename infiltrator. Deadly Blade is both narrow and underwhelming, though it never hurts to have another choice (theoretically. there will only be so many talents printed). Vicious Maneuver is really a talent for a later book. Cool builds open up, but it's not a staple at all.
Look for Holes looks good, but I'd remove the "must be favored target" rule since it's extra bookkeeping and doesn't actually present that much of a restriction.
Is it just me, or does it seem kinda weird that the Slayer has less Sneak Attack dice than the Investigator...
Sure, the Slayer has Favored Target, but the Investigator doesn't seem that much of a combatant, and can still do more total sneak attack damage in one round as a full-attack than the Slayer.
It may be a good idea to at least raise the Sneak Attack dice amount for the Slayer by one or two.
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@Jiggy - Slayer's Charge is too underwhelming.
You're right; maybe a better version would be to simply make it an option any time you charge: take an extra –2 AC and get sneak attack.
Look for Holes looks good, but I'd remove the "must be favored target" rule since it's extra bookkeeping and doesn't actually present that much of a restriction.
So, what, just taking that talent lets you get sneak attack against everyone always? Because that's what you're left with if you just drop the favored target mechanic from it. The idea is that with that talent, you gain the option of trading +X/+X for +0/+Xd6 on your favored targets, letting you "blend" the ranger/rogue abilities in a unique way.
Sorry, what I typed wasn't what I meant, I was in the middle of a game as I wrote. Here's what I meant: don't require the decision to be made *at the moment of declaring a favored target*. That is, on any swing, you can pick SA, or Look for Holes. That way there's only one kind of "mark" to keep track of (and 5 of them in play).
@Rageaj - Investigator has more SA because he has less BAB. Full BAB and near full SA is probably scary to the devs. Between that and the anti-SA sentiment swirling around, that's why most of us (I think) are pushing for more reliable SA via talents, or plugging the holes some other way.
I second (third? fourth?) keeping the Slayer a scary manhunter, not a mobile fighter/skirmisher.
A few suggestions for Slayer Talents
- Poison Use
- Ambush (from the Bandit Rogue Archetype)
- Surprise Shift (Ranger Skirmisher Trick) usable Wis times per day (minimum 1)
- Sniper: as a swift action target creature within range of your Sneak attack is flat footed to the next Ranged Sneak attack you make this turn. Use this ability Wisdom times per day.
A few suggestions for Slayer Talents
- Poison Use
- Ambush (from the Bandit Rogue Archetype)
- Surprise Shift (Ranger Skirmisher Trick) usable Wis times per day (minimum 1)
- Sniper: as a swift action target creature within range of your Sneak attack is flat footed to the next Ranged Sneak attack you make this turn. Use this ability Wisdom times per day.
I think that all of these would be good except for the limits.
I don't want this class to be forced to spread too thin, so either no limit, or have the limit be 3+DEX. This class doesn't use WIS to much, though it is still possible to use a decent amount. Relying on it for an ability, however, I wouldn't want for this class as you still need to spend points on other ability scores.
I'll second Ambush. It's just cool.
Sniper is probably costly enough as a swift action, no limit. It precludes you from marking another target, and it only applies to the first attack rather than all 4/5/6. Also, I'm assuming it doesn't interact favorably with Manyshot.
Coridan's thoughts on the Slayer:
This class is pretty good mechanically. I would like it to get the poison use we are strippin from the Investigator. My onky concern is with the party role. Essentially this is a Serial Killer base class. He might be more fitting as an evil PrC (like some sort of...assassin). Maybe we csn lighten him up a bit, make him more of a scout/skirmisher than a killer?
I think there should be a special poison use archetype or Poisoner prestige class for the Slayer to qualify. Or a slayer talent focused on poison. But I see the Slayer as a full BAB class as being more focused on killing opponents in a combative sense. Poisoning seems more up a spellcasting/skill based assassin approach. The Slayer is all about sniping from afar, or getting close and stabby.
I don't necessarily see the Slayer as evil only, although yes, it's the ideal class for Red Mantis assassins and stuff. But I could also see it be appropriate for vigilantes, freedom fighters, skirmishers that operate behind enemy lines, etc.
Coridan's thoughts on the Slayer:
This class is pretty good mechanically. I would like it to get the poison use we are strippin from the Investigator. My onky concern is with the party role. Essentially this is a Serial Killer base class. He might be more fitting as an evil PrC (like some sort of...assassin). Maybe we csn lighten him up a bit, make him more of a scout/skirmisher than a killer?
I think there should be a special poison use archetype or Poisoner prestige class for the Slayer to qualify. Or a slayer talent focused on poison. But I see the Slayer as a full BAB class as being more focused on killing opponents in a combative sense. Poisoning seems more up a spellcasting/skill based assassin approach. The Slayer is all about sniping from afar, or getting close and stabby.
I don't necessarily see the Slayer as evil only, although yes, it's the ideal class for Red Mantis assassins and stuff. But I could also see it be appropriate for vigilantes, freedom fighters, skirmishers that operate behind enemy lines, etc.
The Slayer isn't just getting close and stabbing, or shooting from afar. I imagine them as having a large arsenal to choose from, and poison would be fitting, especially with Sneak Attack.
I doubt there will be more "free" sneak attack abilities because there already is one and it's an advanced talent AND it's once per day AND it requires adjacent, so they consider that to be a really strong ability.
What if sneak attack was replaced with crit based abilities? I'm pretty sure that would be unique to this class.
Something like:
Increase threat range of weapons by one (after keen, etc.)
Bonus crit feats
Change the save or die talent to autocrit on hit
I doubt there will be more "free" sneak attack abilities because there already is one and it's an advanced talent AND it's once per day AND it requires adjacent, so they consider that to be a really strong ability.
What if sneak attack was replaced with crit based abilities? I'm pretty sure that would be unique to this class.
Something like:
Increase threat range of weapons by one (after keen, etc.)
Bonus crit feats
Change the save or die talent to autocrit on hit
I would be interested in talents and/or an archetype focused on crits, but not as a replacement to Sneak Attack (unless it was very strong), and preferably not for the default class.
Another thought:
Remove the denied dex bonus from the assassinate talent, change the study time to a move action, and change the effect to either autocrit or double the threat range of your weapon (stacking with other effects).
Change the slow on sneak attack talent to on crit.
Add the ability score damage rogue talent but also change it to on crit.
Add other on crit talents.
You can now choose to give up full attacking for higher single hit damage and martial debuffing.
I don't think it's fair to say they very carefully considered Hunter's Surprise and its balance with respect to the Slayer. It's literally just a copy and paste of an advanced rogue talent. The Slayer has considerably less Sneak Attack, and overall a much narrower suite of abilities than a Rogue. I think in order to be a fairly balanced class the Slayer needs either Combat Style or a much more reliable sneak attack. Both would probably be too good.
I definitely am another voice against swapping SA for crit abilities, or just a crit focus in general. It would be unique, sure, but also amazingly streaky. For a Slayer, I want reliable, stellar damage, not the chance to amazingly cripple/destroy/liquefy a guy depending on if they dice like me or not.
I don't think it's fair to say they very carefully considered Hunter's Surprise and its balance with respect to the Slayer. It's literally just a copy and paste of an advanced rogue talent. The Slayer has considerably less Sneak Attack, and overall a much narrower suite of abilities than a Rogue. I think in order to be a fairly balanced class the Slayer needs either Combat Style or a much more reliable sneak attack. Both would probably be too good.
I definitely am another voice against swapping SA for crit abilities, or just a crit focus in general. It would be unique, sure, but also amazingly streaky. For a Slayer, I want reliable, stellar damage, not the chance to amazingly cripple/destroy/liquefy a guy depending on if they dice like me or not.
Increasing the threat range of weapons should make the class less streaky since everyone else also has a chance to amazingly destroy something on a crit but less chance to do so.
The purpose of encouraging a martial debuffer/single attack per round is that it moves the slayer farther away from fighter/barbarian territory. It's already a full BAB martial without spells or companion, less than 6 skill points per level, and a consistent damage boost. Which is closer to a fighter or barbarian then rogue or ranger.
Does anyone have optimized fighter or barbarian stats to compare the slayer to?
Infiltrator: You gain the trapfinding ability, as the rogue class feature of the same name.
Could this please include adding Disable Device as a class skill?
- Perhaps some/all of the Dirty Trick feats would work as slayer's talents too?
- Perhaps the urban barbarian's Crowd Control as a talent?
You know what would be an interesting comparison? Favored Target vs Archaeologist's Luck.
Maybe not in the base slayer class, but what about an archetype that trades out Favored Target for the urban barbarian's Controlled Rage?
And I'd definitely play a slayer/archetype that gives up sneak attack for some of the conditions inflicted by the Critical Focus feat tree and possibly the Gorgon's Fist/Scorpion Style/Medusa's Wrath feats.
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You know what would be an interesting comparison? Favored Target vs Archaeologist's Luck.Maybe not in the base slayer class, but what about an archetype that trades out Favored Target for the urban barbarian's Controlled Rage?
What I meant was "Someone should do a point-by-point comparison/analysis of the similarities and differences of Favored Target and Archaeologist's Luck, as a means of seeing how good/bad Favored Target is."
Honestly, this class does need a higher Sneak Attack, and something that allows it to be used more easily. It could have a different trigger for this class, or Slayer could, instead, have an ability that allows the, to flank (at least temporarily) without an ally, or an easier way to make an enemy flat-footed.
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Going to build a 10th Level Human Slayer and a 10th level human Ranger using 20 point buy. They will be builds meant to survive a campaign and not be stupidly specialized away from intention. (Someone did that earlier in the Swashbucker discussion. Low dex high str swashbuckler power attacking with a rapier)
These two characters will be mostly optimized towards two weapon fighting. The goal is to see which is the stronger two weapon fighter, then to compare the utility aspects of the classes. What I want to find is that the Slayer is more combat oriented than the Ranger at the sacrifice of utility.
Edit: fixed math errors
Differences
Slayer:
Higher AC and reflex thanks to dex heaviness
Oppurtunist Slayer talent (awesome)
Slowing people with sneak attacks
Higher attack rolls
Sneak attack (High tier ability)
More versatile favored enemy (top tier ability)
Has disguise skill
Ranger:
A full advancement animal companion (Top tier ability)
Higher damage attacks
Always on favored enemy (situational High tier)
Spells (top tier ability)
2 favored terrains compared to slayers 1
Evasion
Woodland stride
Has more skill points
Slayer to me seems like a Ranger on steroids that tossed his animal companion away for sneak attack and these numbers seem to support this. In terms of combat, the actual characters (straight numbers) are of similar power, with the exception of sneak attack and the once per round opportunist.
Overall though I think a Ranger manages to bring more to the party thanks to the animal companion providing an additional flank buddy for the rest of the party along with its own attacks. The Ranger spells and more group important skills help the ranger further.
Based on these two characters I would say Slayers need a buff. Not a buff to damage necessarily, but to versatility in a party. Some ideas I have are more skill points, more talents, maybe a sneak attack die at level one in addition to all the dice it currently has, poison use and maybe poison resistance.
My personal favorite idea of a change is giving the Slayer a bleed class ability. Maybe something simple like “sneak attacks inflict a bleed = number of sneak attack dice+Int modifier. This bleed shouldn’t be a Talent because it’s something to help balance against the largest advantages Rangers have (animal companion and spells)
Also if poison use is added, it really shouldn't be a talent.
10th level Human Slayer of 2WF
STR: 16
Dex: 21
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
Feats+talents
1. Weapon Finesse, two weapon fighting
2. Weapon focus Short sword
3. Power attack
4. Talent for favored terrain (most appropriate for setting)
5. Iron will
6. Combat trick: Improved two weapon fighting
7. Imp. Iron Will or Cornugan smash
8. Slowing strike
9. Double Slice
10. Opportunist
Saves:
Fort: 9
Reflex:12
Will: 7
Gear: 62,000
2 +2 Short swords 16,000
+2 mithril breastplate 8400
+2 Amulet of natural armor 8000
+2 Ring of protection 8000
Belt of Physical Might (dex str) 10,000
12,650 leftover for skill items and Cloak of resistance
AC: 27=10+5+6+2+2
HP: 90=10+10D10(assume 5s)+20(con)+10(favored)
Attack and damage will assume favored target.
Total Attack bonus for shortsword:21= 10(BAB)+5(dex)+1(focus) +2(ENH)+3(target)
While power attacking:21-3=18
While two weapon fighting: 21-2=19
While doing both:16
Damage (It’s the same for both hands thanks to double slice): d6+8 (additional+6 from power attack)
Full attack routine: 19/19/14/14
Power full attack routine: 16/16/11/11
Sneak attack is a 3d6
Skill points: 4+1(int)+1(skilled)=6 per level. Will have maxed Perception, Acrobatics, Knowledge local, and stealth. The rest of the skill points would be non maxed skills including swim, climb, sense motive, and hopefully bluff.
2WF Ranger human 10th level
STR: 21
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
Will assume non stacking favored enemy as I always vary my favored enemies, but will assume combat is against a favored enemy.
Feats
1. Two weapon fighting, power attack
2. Double slice
3. Endurance, Weapon focus short sword
4. None
5. Boon companion
6. Improved 2Wf
7. Iron Will
8. None
9. Improved Iron will or cornugan smash or dodge
10. Bonus feat for greater 2 weapon fighter (though to be fair the Slayer was gonna take this at 11 and this only gives one attack at the lowest BAB rung)
Saves:
Fort: 9
Reflex: 10
Will: 7
HP: 90
AC: 25
Gear: 62,000
2 +2 Short swords 16,000
+2 mithril breastplate 8400
+2 Amulet of natural armor 8000
+2 Ring of protection 8000
Belt of Physical Might (dex str) 10,000
12,650 leftover for skill items and Cloak of resistance
Assuming +2 on favored enemy
Total Attack bonus for shortsword:20= 10(BAB)+5(str)+1(focus) +2(ENH)+2(target)
While power attacking:20-3=17
While two weapon fighting: 20-2=18
While doing both:15
Damage (It’s the same for both hands thanks to double slice): d6+9 (additional+6 from power attack)
Full attack routine: 18/18/13/13/8
Power full attack routine: 15/15/10/10/5
Skill points 6+1+1=8
Max: handle animal, Knowledge dungeoneering+nature, stealth, survival, perception, rest spent on keeping some non maxed skills
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10th level Human Slayer of 2WF
STR: 16
Dex: 21
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
Feats+talents
1. Weapon Finesse, two weapon fighting
2. Weapon training Short sword
3. Power attack
4. Talent for favored terrain (most appropriate for setting)
5. Iron will
6. Combat trick: Improved two weapon fighting
7. Greater weapon focus Short sword
8. Slowing strike
9. Double Slice
10. Opportunist
????
2. Weapon training Short sword
Weapon Training is a Fighter class ability
7. Greater weapon focus Short sword
This requires 8 levels in Fighter
Also, I'm designing a level 15 Slayer, level 15 Ranger, a Level 15 Rogue, and possibly a Rogue 8/Ranger 7 or Rogue 7/Ranger 8 if I feel like it. They'll be focused on Two-Weapon Fighting, and I'll post them here afterwards with a comparison.
Those are feats and talents. Look at the slayer talents. That training is supposed to be weapon focus.
The greater weapon focus can just be replaced with greater iron will or something since thats pretty much neccessary.
Those are feats and talents. Look at the slayer talents. That training is supposed to be weapon focus.
The greater weapon focus can just be replaced with greater iron will or something since thats pretty much neccessary.
I got that they were feats and talents, I was just posting that entire section to show where I found the part the confused me. Also, I did not realize the talent that gives Weapon Focus was called Weapon Training.
Also, this class still needs a good Second Save. Fort could be given from the Ranger, or Will because people really want Will in this class.
Slayer already has fort as good save