I would say, no.
The druid is better in all aspect except perhaps:
If you want party buffs like bless, Prayer and Blessing of Fervor
If you want to play "reactively" instead of "proactively".
if you want to focus mainly on Summons.
Codzilla spells
Some buff/protection spells (also know as: Talk to your wizard or Sorcerer)
My reason for wanting the cleric spell list is because it is hands down better at dealing with spirits, the thing the class is about.
The Druid spell list can't really affect spirits anywhere near the same level, and it can't ward evil spirits off from locations.
That's the canonical shaman-as-spirit-whisperer spell!
and
Those whispy things that fly around and moan at people.
First of all, I agree there are spells on the Cleric list that a Shaman really should have. I really don’t deny that, but there are spells on the druid list a shaman really should have.
I admit they should be able to talk to spirits of the “dead” and they should have spells such as Speak with dead, divination spells, Remove curse, Remove Blindness/Deafness and some other spells.
The should possibly but not necessarily have access to spells such as detect undead and even magic circle against evil.
Second: On the topic of speak with dead, let me just say I feel you may confuse spirit with ghost/undead.
Way back, a really long time ago, when I read Social anthropology I did read about Shamans and Shamanism. I remember our teacher telling us that Social anthropology and Shamanism has lot of things in common, but the most important thing is perspective.
The Shaman believes everything has got a soul or spirit. Animals, trees, earth/stone, humans, etc. and the Shaman is said to have the ability so see thru the eyes of others be it a panther or a bird or whatever. Sometimes the Shaman could even feel or feel scent what the animal/creature/tree felt.
So communicating with a spirit does not equal communicating with the dead. It is more that everything got spirit and the Shaman can communicate with that life force.
The other thing is the Shamans ability to communicate with spirit of people (or other creatures) that has died. Now it is important to understand that in a lot of culture it is not only the Shaman that can communicate with the spirits of the Ancestors, even ordinary people can. Here we see a fundamental difference between the Judo-Christian tradition and some of the Shaman traditions in that our tradition we talk about the living, the dead and the undead. In Shamanism life does not end when you die. Death is just transition. When people talk to their Ancestors, the Ancestors are indeed alive, but not as you and me. They are a part of everyday life. So “a spirit” can be another kind of living existence and it does not necessarily equal undead.
I’m well aware of the fact that there are all sorts of Shamanism, but from what I’ve read (and I haven't read much) I think the druid is closer to the Shaman than the Cleric, especially in their profound respect for nature (trees, animals, humans, mountains, etc.) and in their ability to talk to animals, trees, mountains, etc and in their ability to take on different aspects of nature.
Then we got Santeria, Candomblé and Voodoo with is also a sort of Shamanism, and their “priests” are possibly closer to the Cleric or witch.
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Verdict:
Give the Shaman the Druid spell list + the Cleric spell list, 1/2 BAB and D6 hd and light armor and no metal armor.
or
let the player choose a path. The Path of the Druid or the path of the Cleric., the druid list or the Cleric list.
Or
make a unique spell list for the Shaman
or
Give the Druid list and add some spells to the list, such as divination spells, speak with dead, etc.
Verdict:
Give the Shaman the Druid spell list + the Cleric spell list, 1/2 BAB and D6 hd and light armor and no metal armor.
or
let the player choose a path. The Path of the Druid or the path of the Cleric., the druid list or the Cleric list.
Or
make a unique spell list for the Shamanor
Give the Druid list and add some spells to the list, such as divination spells, speak with dead, etc.
+1. I can see all your points, but this seems the most fitting.
Also, he (she?) should have some means for summoning spirits and ask questions.
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+1. I can see all your points, but this seems the most fitting.
Also, he (she?) should have some means for summoning spirits and ask questions.
Either Speak/Commune with Spirits is a new spell added or their could be a table that lists the different types of spirit talk from pre-existing spells.
Stone Tell = Stone
Commune with Nature = Flame/Wind/Water/Stone/Nature
Speak with Plants / Animals = Nature
Speak with Dead = Bones/Ancestor
Automatic Writing Augury = Lore (They do already got that at 1st level)
? = Battle
? = Life
or Perhaps each Spirit has its own language, like if you wanted to talk to a Stone spirit, you would need to know Terran.
If not any of the above then perhaps as a class feature they can get that allows them to constantly be able to talk to Undead or to Outsiders.
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example #1 or example #2 or example #3 or example #4 or example #5 to how I am trying picturing my Shaman.
I am aware I guess to the most extent that Shamanism isn't limited to say Native American culture, but its where my mind wanders off to.
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If folks want a bone-nose druid, I think that would be better accomplished by creating druid archetypes than trying to shoehorn the shaman concept into a dedicated nature-caster.
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If folks want a bone-nose druid, I think that would be better accomplished by creating druid archetypes than trying to shoehorn the shaman concept into a dedicated nature-caster.
And I could say the same about a "bone-nosed cleric" being much better as an clericarchtype than trying to make the shaman into one. But such buzz phrases don't really help a discussion.
Its clear that this is a very emotional Topic, with different people having different views what a shaman "should" be. And I don't exclude myself there. That's why I still think a choice at first level when you pick your spirit between druid and cleric list would be the best solution.
While a custom list could solve a lot of the different expectations of what a shaman should be able to do, I think it's not a practical idea. We have tons of spells in different books and likely will keep getting lots of more spells in the future. Picking a Spellist from all the existing spells would require immense effort from the Devs, and each future spell would have to be checked if it would fit the shaman. Much easier and smoother to just give the shaman one if the other lists to choose from. That way he won't run the risk of not getting interesting new spells in the future.
If folks want a bone-nose druid, I think that would be better accomplished by creating druid archetypes than trying to shoehorn the shaman concept into a dedicated nature-caster.
If you want a Cleric with spontaneous domains that you can change on the fly, I think you might be better off with an archetype.
Shaman, right now, is ridiculously similar to cleric. They don't get to spontaneous cast cures, they can't channel without a specific choice being made, but, as I said, they don't have to prepare their domain spells, and their second domain can change each day. Otherwise, everything is the same: BAB, proficiencies, saves, Wisdom based prepared caster off the Cleric spell list...
The spell list would literally be the only thing anyone is suggesting taking from the Druid. That would leave off dozens of class features. It'd be far more extensive a change than an archetype would normally allow.
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If folks want a bone-nose druid, I think that would be better accomplished by creating druid archetypes than trying to shoehorn the shaman concept into a dedicated nature-caster.And I could say the same about a "bone-nosed cleric" being much better as an clericarchtype than trying to make the shaman into one.
You could say it but it wouldn't make any sense. A shaman using the cleric list could be any number of things, like a dwarven battle-saint who draws power from the spirits of battle. The only reason to use the druid spell list is to make the shaman closer to nature. The druid is already a close-to-nature character. So it seems to me mainly that the motivation is to have a nature-oriented caster, but give it a name associated with non-European peoples and make it more "witch-y."
The whole point of this shaman, as I understand it, is to meld the concept of the divine caster with the idea of a supernatural familiar that grants spells. The result is intended to be not a witch, because the witch is the witch. Shamans don't normally do a lot of cursing, so the witch's mix of strong offense and eclectic curing doesn't really apply. Unlike the oracle, the shaman is not a direct divine conduit and is not cursed.
It just seems to me that some people hear "shaman" and can't get past the idea of a guy wearing a crow feather cape talking to animals or something. It's not an accurate picture of Native American magic and religion. It has nothing to do with Himalayan shamanism. There is nothing about the crow feather cape guy you can't already do with the druid class. When you give the druid spell list to the shaman, you have very little left that actually revolves around dealing with spirits, beyond having some kind of spirit animal involved in spell preparation. Shamans are not ecologists or elemental worshipers. I really can't imagine what shamanism has to do with a bunch of plant spells like entangle and goodberry. Once you get to the point where you are asking the vine spirit to entangle someone you are not talking about shamanism but good old fantasy druidism.
Druids have already had their name appropriated for nature-magic guys. At least they don't have a living religious tradition to insult, their practices having largely died out, apart from whatever got absorbed into the folk religion of the British Isles.
What I am saying is that when you picture a guy in an animal skin tent, trancing and performing spirit medicine, why are we suddenly thinking he should be casting lots of plant and animal spells? There are plenty of stories of Christian saints speaking to animals, performing transmutations, and living off the land, and the Roman pagan religion was full of plant and animal imagery, yet the cleric class isn't saddled with "nature magic." Shaman magic is spirit magic, and a focus on animals and plants should be just as secondary to shamanism as a focus on battle or abjuring demons.
If they stick with the druid spell list (which I don’t mind) I hope they grant the Shaman some must have cleric spells, as spells or as Su or as Sp. Mostly divination spells and spells such as speak with dead.
I also hope they grant the Shaman (and the druid) a new protection spell that works like a nerfed protection from alignment spell.
My thought would be a “protection from possession and domination” spell that is not tied to an alignment and that doesn’t grant the +2 to deflection and resistance. Although a small bonus vs. fear would be out of place.
At higher levels a “Magic Circle against possession and domination” spell would be cool.
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Is there a good rationale for not also giving that spell to clerics?
good stuff
edit: I must say, the more I think about it, the more I think you, Cheapy, Scavion have got a point.
If the idea is just to swap the cleric list and just add the Druid list without any additional fixes this class will get hurt. The risk is that everyone will pick Life etc.
I prefer the druid list, but the Cleric list fit better.
@ Scavion: I can see your point. Apology accepted. I’m cool and I hope you are cool too :)
Spontaneous would be fine, but I’m not sure it would work with a druid spell list. Cleric list is probably better.
Is there a good rationale for not also giving that spell to clerics?
I suggested it as a Druid spell list fix. Clerics got prot from evil.
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I kind of look at it this way.
Cleric ends up having a bunch of spells that the Shaman needs to deal with spiritual health and protection.
However, the Shaman channels spirits via their animal spirit guide.
The Cleric list doesn't end up getting things that deal necessarily with animalistic spirit concepts, because those are primarily on the Druid list.
Shaman could take the Druid list, but then he wouldn't have things dealing with spiritual health and protection.
Essentially, the concept of having an animal spirit guide as a core concept of the class is what is throwing off the rest of the class concept. They're also said to connect to the spirits in all living things (see shaman intro paragraph) and not just spirits of ancestors. That means they can talk to spirits of oxen, dragons, fish, trees, birds, and people. These things don't even need to be dead for the Shaman to talk to them.
The Cleric spell list proponents are focusing on the spiritual health angle of things and they're not wrong.
The Druid spell list proponents are focusing on the animal spirit guide side of things and they're not wrong.
I don't think the Witch list would work as a compromise, because that moves the class from Shaman to Juju Witchdoctor. That's not to say an archetype couldn't have fun with it, but I don't think it would works as the base class concept.
The issue comes down to the fact that the spell list the class should have doesn't truly exist right now. It really needs to meld parts of Cleric and Druid or force the player to choose one or the other based on their spirit of choice.
TLDR: the cleric and druid sides are both right which either means Shaman needs its own list or needs to pick one or the other upon creation
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Really? So basically it a way of saying, "I just typed a comment that's a bit long and I know some people can't be bothered to read it, so let me also summarize the comment I just typed into a single sentence???"
Good Lord, that's really kind of depressing.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation!
I wouldn't use the Witch list wholesale. However, like the Cleric and Druid, it does have some appropriate spells.
I don't think the Witch list would work as a compromise, because that moves the class from Shaman to Juju Witchdoctor. That's not to say an archetype couldn't have fun with it, but I don't think it would works as the base class concept.
Agreed, but that also comes down to Shaman having its own spell list that pulls from it. Some have suggested (and I even thought about it for a bit) that Witch might be a compromise list, but like I said... it pulls the class way off track.
Really? So basically it a way of saying, "I just typed a comment that's a bit long and I know some people can't be bothered to read it, so let me also summarize the comment I just typed into a single sentence???"
Good Lord, that's really kind of depressing.
In academia they call it an "abstract" ;)
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In academia they call it an "abstract" ;)
I laughed. Then cried.
My two cents....I really like the idea posted somewhere above that at first level, The shaman picks whether it wants the Cleric or the Druid spell list, and once chosen the Shaman can not change it's spell list. That really seems like the best way of catering to all conceptions of Shaman, and would provide quite a bit of flexibility to the class that is somewhat lacking in a few of the other ACG classes
What if the class had access to both the cleric and the druid lists, but he only started with a limited number of spells known by his familiar like the witch familiar class feature?
What if the class had access to both the cleric and the druid lists, but he only started with a limited number of spells known by his familiar like the witch familiar class feature?
Yep. I allready suggested both list, se above.
Best way of balance it is nerfing BAB and armor. Possibly make it a spontaneous caster so it can’t have all spells ready to go. Also I would remove summon monster and only let it have summon natures alley.
What if the class had access to both the cleric and the druid lists, but he only started with a limited number of spells known by his familiar like the witch familiar class feature?Yep. I allready suggested both list, se above.
Best way of balance it is nerfing BAB and armor. Possibly make it a spontaneous caster so it can’t have all spells ready to go. Also I would remove summon monster and only let it have summon natures alley.
As someone who played a battle shaman, that wouldn't sit well with me personally :T but I can see that happening.
Also I wasn't saying he would be a spontanous castor. I was thinking more along the lines of the wizard/witch/magus whom are prepared castors but don't have every single spell available to them.
What if the class had access to both the cleric and the druid lists, but he only started with a limited number of spells known by his familiar like the witch familiar class feature?Yep. I allready suggested both list, se above.
Best way of balance it is nerfing BAB and armor. Possibly make it a spontaneous caster so it can’t have all spells ready to go. Also I would remove summon monster and only let it have summon natures alley.
However, you run into the problem that the lists aren't mutually exclusive nor do their overlaps actually overlap in the same places.
Druids get some stuff earlier and Clerics get other stuff earlier. Do you always go with the earlier option? Do you go with one as default? The both option has a lot of strange stuff with it.
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If folks want a bone-nose druid, I think that would be better accomplished by creating druid archetypes than trying to shoehorn the shaman concept into a dedicated nature-caster.
I find it odd that shaman are getting druid spells. It is really weird to me that a class that is part oracle and part witch wound up with the druid spell listing. Either cleric or witch spell casting lists would make sense but druid seems like an odd choice unless they want to redo shaman into being a druid/witch cross or a oracle/druid cross. The later almost makes some sense as the last time I checked the hexes shaman had did not really seem like hexes at all and really had nothing other than that to do with witches.
If folks want a bone-nose druid, I think that would be better accomplished by creating druid archetypes than trying to shoehorn the shaman concept into a dedicated nature-caster.I find it odd that shaman are getting druid spells. It is really weird to me that a class that is part oracle and part witch wound up with the druid spell listing. Either cleric or witch spell casting lists would make sense but druid seems like an odd choice unless they want to redo shaman into being a druid/witch cross or a oracle/druid cross. The later almost makes some sense as the last time I checked the hexes shaman had did not really seem like hexes at all and really had nothing other than that to do with witches. [/QUOTE the class as a whole has little to nothing to do with witches either thematic or mechanically. the hexes are hexes in name only and then there is the familier and thats it. everything else seems to be lifted from the orical or cleric.
With as well as they say Shaman is doing in the surveys thus far, I'm not sure they're really paying much attention to this thread.
Druids have already had their name appropriated for nature-magic guys. At least they don't have a living religious tradition to insult, their practices having largely died out, apart from whatever got absorbed into the folk religion of the British Isles.
Not so ;)
But I agree with what you are trying to say.
The whole point of this shaman, as I understand it, is to meld the concept of the divine caster with the idea of a supernatural familiar that grants spells.
If that's the concept, then I'll pass. I considered the familiar to be the most extraneous and pointless part of the class and one I had zero interest in.
"I get my magic from spirits!"
"Really? Which spirits?"
"Well, ok, not really spirits--I get it from this scorpion in my pocket."
"Oh, is it a spirit scorpion?"
"Er, well, no, it's just a regular one. But I get to go first in combat while it's in my pocket!"
It's not an accurate picture of Native American magic and religion.
Do you know what is also not an accurate picture of Amerindian magic and religion? Calling their religion Shamanism, because it's not--it's offensive to a great many of those practicing their traditional religions, because it's shoehorning their unique culture into, well, a white man's box. We've talked about this though, and I just don't think it has anything at all to do with a fantasy Shaman, nor should it.
I really can't imagine what shamanism has to do with a bunch of plant spells like entangle and goodberry.
I can't really imagine what real world druids have to do with those things either. Or what real world clerics have to do with, well, magic at all.
I just can't connect real world stuff with classes in game--it doesn't work and shouldn't work. Fantasy clerics have magical healing and smiting. Fantasy druids have shapeshifting and nature magic. They just do. Fantasy Shamanism involves spirits and elemental and nature magic. The original modern pop-culture Shaman is, at least in part, from Everquest and specialized in animal-based buffs (spirit of the wolf) and DoTs (damage over time spells, especially diseases, poisons, and swarms of bugs) with a side of elemental direct damage spells. That's where a lot of people are coming from.
Druids have already had their name appropriated for nature-magic guys. At least they don't have a living religious tradition to insult, their practices having largely died out, apart from whatever got absorbed into the folk religion of the British Isles.Not so ;)
But I agree with what you are trying to say.
To clarify, there are modern druid revivalists, but they don't represent a direct continuation of the ancient religion. I intended no disrespect to anyone who identifies as a neo-druid of any sort. Carry on.
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With as well as they say Shaman is doing in the surveys thus far, I'm not sure they're really paying much attention to this thread.
yes that has me a bit worried as well. The shaman as it stands is crtainly fully functional, some spirit balance aside. but there defanatly seems to be a consensus that the flavor to mechanics is off. what should be done to change it is all over the place though because no one can seem to agree what "shaman" shhould mean.
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If that's the concept, then I'll pass.
Very well.
Do you know what is also not an accurate picture of Amerindian magic and religion? Calling their religion Shamanism, because it's not--it's offensive to a great many of those practicing their traditional religions, because it's shoehorning their unique culture into, well, a white man's box. We've talked about this though, and I just don't think it has anything at all to do with a fantasy Shaman, nor should it.
It's a general term from anthropology. I consider myself a pretty sensitive person, but I just don't get excited about a term applied to dozens of Himalayan religions also being applied to dozens of other religions with similar practices. If you want to avoid overgeneralizing, you wouldn't say "shaman," you would say, "Southern Tibertan shaman," or "Aztec (whatever the specific word for that is in Aztec)." You are basically objecting to English-speakers speaking English, because that is the accepted term for a religious practice that involves trances and communicating with spirits. Do you become equally offended when someone talks about Cherokee warriors, because "warrior" isn't a Cherokee word?
I can't really imagine what real world druids have to do with those things either. Or what real world clerics have to do with, well, magic at all.
I just can't connect real world stuff with classes in game--it doesn't work and shouldn't work. Fantasy clerics have magical healing and smiting. Fantasy druids have shapeshifting and nature magic. They just are.
So if the barbarian were called a bard, the wizard were called a rogue, and the rogue were called a zerbzatl, you'd be okay with that?
The point (yes, there is a point) is that the term shaman has a pre-existing meaning. The shaman class is not going to map to any particular American Indian culture or Tibetan folk religion. But the name suggests that it will have certain traits in common with things that are called "shamanism." Just shrugging and accepting the MMORPG version of shamanism is in my mind to be avoided because it reflects a stereotype of shamans because that is what people actually think traditional American Indian culture is actually all about nature spirits and wearing eagle feathers and being in touch with natural, nature-y, nature. Like, Disney Pocahontas stuff.
So I'd rather step back and say, "This is not Pocahontas stuff, this class is called shaman because it is a divine magician that draws their inspiration from spirits." I'd rather say, "Just because someone comes from a metal-poor civilization does not mean their entire society revolves around berries and animals and trees and stuff." And from a gaming standpoint, the druid spell is a constraint. Without it, you can have tribes led by Bones Shamans, warbands inspired by Battle shamans, and wilderfolk led by, yes, Nature shamans. The class works harder if you set aside all that "talks to the animals" stuff and focuses on the class as a variant oracle. The tribal shaman is not someone you go to when you need someone to talk to a goat or something.
Fantasy Shamanism involves spirits and elemental and nature magic. The original modern pop-culture Shaman is, at least in part, from Everquest and specialized in animal-based buffs (spirit of the wolf) and DoTs (damage over time spells, especially diseases, poisons, and swarms of bugs) with a side of elemental direct damage spells. That's where a lot of people are coming from.
From that definition it seems almost full supported by the Druid with the exception of "spirits."
I don't exactly see where you are coming from. Everything in the game is more or less defined. Even the hyper abstract notions of a God. They're just super powerful outsiders who gain power from worship and belief. They grant power to their worshipers. Even the Spirits example you gave is some sort of magical construct that is negated by an antimagic field.
So what are spirits? Incorporeal Undead is an obvious explanation. Or one of the many elementally themed outsiders. Fey fit the bill for nature spirits. Literally Dryads are the spirits of trees. Druids get their power incredibly ambiguously from "Nature." Shamans could do the same.
I can make a Cleric who communes with his ancestral spirits and can command the spirits of fire easily. Or I can make a Druid and command the spirits of nature and the elements. This sort of thing is exactly what fluff is for.
I'm not an expert on Shamanism, but plainly I can see it encompassing a wide range of concepts. Perhaps too large a concept to fit into one class?
The prevention spells and condition removal is part of what makes the Cleric list unique aside from all the fun battle cleric stuff. The Life Spirit already takes the condition removal so if you take the prevention spells you end up with a Shaman who can do everything a Druid and Cleric can with more versatility.
To clarify, there are modern druid revivalists, but they don't represent a direct continuation of the ancient religion. I intended no disrespect to anyone who identifies as a neo-druid of any sort. Carry on.
LOL...I'd be more likely to take offense at being called a "neo-druid" ...of any sort.
But don't fret friend...no offense taken :)I for one find it exhausting to be PC all the time.
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If that's the concept, then I'll pass.
Very well.
Do you know what is also not an accurate picture of Amerindian magic and religion? Calling their religion Shamanism, because it's not--it's offensive to a great many of those practicing their traditional religions, because it's shoehorning their unique culture into, well, a white man's box. We've talked about this though, and I just don't think it has anything at all to do with a fantasy Shaman, nor should it.
It's a general term from anthropology. I consider myself a pretty sensitive person, but I just don't get excited about a term applied to dozens of Himalayan religions also being applied to dozens of other religions with similar practices. If you want to avoid overgeneralizing, you wouldn't say "shaman," you would say, "Southern Tibertan shaman," or "Aztec (whatever the specific word for that is in Aztec)." You are basically objecting to English-speakers speaking English, because that is the accepted term for a religious practice that involves trances and communicating with spirits. Do you become equally offended when someone talks about Cherokee warriors, because "warrior" isn't a Cherokee word?
I can't really imagine what real world druids have to do with those things either. Or what real world clerics have to do with, well, magic at all.
I just can't connect real world stuff with classes in game--it doesn't work and shouldn't work. Fantasy clerics have magical healing and smiting. Fantasy druids have shapeshifting and nature magic. They just are.So if the barbarian were called a bard, the wizard were called a rogue, and the rogue were called a zerbzatl, you'd be okay with that?
The point (yes, there is a point) is that the term shaman has a pre-existing meaning. The shaman class is not going to map to any particular American Indian culture or Tibetan folk religion. But the name suggests that it will have certain traits in common with things that are...
Well said....
I understand that many people have a fluffy pop-culture understanding of what the term "shaman" means....that doesn't mean I want to see a class the reinforces that image.
If that's the direction it goes, well then I just loose all interest.
So I'd rather step back and say, "This is not Pocahontas stuff, this class is called shaman because it is a divine magician that draws their inspiration from spirits." I'd rather say, "Just because someone comes from a metal-poor civilization does not mean their entire society revolves around berries and animals and trees and stuff." And from a gaming standpoint, the druid spell is a constraint. Without it, you can have tribes led by Bones Shamans, warbands inspired by Battle shamans, and wilderfolk led by, yes, Nature shamans. The class works harder if you set aside all that "talks to the animals" stuff and focuses on the class as a variant oracle. The tribal shaman is not someone you go to when you need someone to talk to a goat or something.
But the current shaman as setup in the playtest DO talk to goats. At 5th level a shaman can literally speak with her familiar. At 7th level, she can talk to animals of the same kind as her familiar. These are people that talk to goats and she gets a +3 survival check bonus for doing so.
We're not playing Pathfinder the Historically Accurate RPG. We're playing Pathfinder the Fantasy RPG. That means things are going to trend toward fantasy tropes. Paladins, Druids, Oracles, Bards, Witches, and even Shaman are all going to pull mostly from their pop culture fantasy trope with a nod to their historical counterpart... but usually just a nod.
Back during the APG playtest, the Oracle concept made me think more of Avatar: The Last Airbender with the Flame, Wind, Water, and Stone mysteries and spontaneous spell-casting than anything to do with the Seer of Delphi. Heck, a blind oracle of stone is essentially one of the show's characters.
So, I'm not really all that worried that it doesn't match up with its real life counterpart. I'm just worried that it will mesh well with someplace like Golarion which is where the character is going to end up living in my campaigns.
Look, talking to goats isn't that special. Even I myself can talk to goats!
We're not playing Pathfinder the Historically Accurate RPG. We're playing Pathfinder the Fantasy RPG. That means things are going to trend toward fantasy tropes. Paladins, Druids, Oracles, Bards, Witches, and even Shaman are all going to pull mostly from their pop culture fantasy trope with a nod to their historical counterpart... but usually just a nod.Back during the APG playtest, the Oracle concept made me think more of Avatar: The Last Airbender with the Flame, Wind, Water, and Stone mysteries and spontaneous spell-casting than anything to do with the Seer of Delphi. Heck, a blind oracle of stone is essentially one of the show's characters.
So, I'm not really all that worried that it doesn't match up with its real life counterpart. I'm just worried that it will mesh well with someplace like Golarion which is where the character is going to end up living in my campaigns.
I think everyone understands that...although I for one would like to see a bit heavier nod than often occurs in RPG's.
For me a big part of this is creating a class that add's something NEW to the options available.
I understand that it is a hybrid of two existing classes, but If I can't get a feel out of it beyond what I could get from multi-classing those two classes...then the concepts a waste of time in my opinion.
The Arcanist revision did a great job of moving that hybrid in a new and exciting direction....I want to see the same kind of thing with the Shaman (those are the only two of the classes I'm really that interested in).
If I wanted a character that summons elementals, makes plant's grow, and talks to animals, well then I can play a Druid...
Not because it's a "historically accurate" image of a Drui....it's not even close to the reality....however it's an established trope, and it's great fun.
Shamanism is about working with spirits...not just immaterial beings, but ALL spirit. That's something that has not been the focus of a class to date (closest being the Binder, which was something of a disappointment)....that's the direction I would like to see the shaman go.
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First and foremost, I am concerned about playability. I think mechanically and thematically, the class works better with the cleric list. If you don't like the spirit familiar that much and you do like the druid list, guess what? Gotcha covered. Just play a druid. :)
Look, talking to goats isn't that special. Even I myself can talk to goats!
Many people speak with me, but not everyone understands me. You can speak with a goat sure, but usually all they ever have to say... is baa'd news.
I'm running a Wave shaman right now, and the switch to druid spells would be great for her given that they forgot to check whether damaging water-descriptor spells actually existed on the cleric list.
That said, I'd much rather see the class stick to cleric/oracle or witch for its spellcasting. When they announced an oracle/witch hybrid, I got excited because that's a hybrid I wanted to see, not because 'Shaman' interested me as a name. Class flavor is really subjective; I've seen and played plenty of non-barbaric barbarians, non-monkish monks, and non-studious wizards. I don't quite get the argument that the shaman needs a bunch of spirit-related spells, any more than the sorcerer needs all the blood-related spells. Just because they draw power from spirits doesn't mean they have to be all about ghosts and Mother Willow.
Given their parent classes, I'd be much quicker to envision the shaman as disconnected from their power source. Oracles wake up one morning with divine power bursting out of their pores. Witch patrons are inexplicable forces with no clear identity that form contracts through animals. Wouldn't it make sense, therefore, for the shaman's spirits to be impersonal and fickle, rather than something they pray to for guidance or converse with for advice?
Something that occured to me while playing around with the class last night...was the "flavor" of the hexes.
What about having the spirit provide a few options for hexes(ie: something that harms or repulses) and a few blessings (ie: something that buff's the shaman or his allies)....maybe the wording is throwing people off ?
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I am hoping the druid list isn't set in stone. The only dev input I have heard about spells was something to the effect of "we are thinking about changing to the druid list" and then shortly after "make it so." The two reasons I have seen on here for it are "Some of the spells have shaman flavor that the cleric doesn't have" and "we only have one class using this list so far."
As to the first argument, the same can be said in reverse (possibly to greater effect). As to the second argument, does it really matter? It was an afterthought to fill this somewhat open niche, is it that important?
I used the cleric casting shaman as a 5th level NPC along with several of his animated dead in a home game against four 3rd level, optimized PCs. I didn't post anything about it here because the tactics were pretty far from the norm for story purposes, but it felt like a fun character that I could enjoy playing as a PC (even though it did burn out of juice very quickly). But around half of the spells I had prepped I did not find on the druid list.
I was not immediately opposed to the druid list idea, admittedly I never played one and didn't know what was fully on it. I read the list, saw what I was losing, saw what I was gaining, and took my first level Shaman I built for PFS and turned him into an Arcanist.
I still read this thread regularly hoping for some development on the spell front. It sounds like the spell list and the etymology of class name have all but dominated this thread. I find that kind of a pity, because the wandering spirit idea seems like such a hit that I would like to see more energy devoted to it. But it appears that for many people, myself included, this very cool idea is taking a back seat at the moment.
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Really? So basically it a way of saying, "I just typed a comment that's a bit long and I know some people can't be bothered to read it, so let me also summarize the comment I just typed into a single sentence???"
Good Lord, that's really kind of depressing.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation!
I like to think of it as the Abstract.
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I played a first level Shaman on the weekend, and have spend the last couple of days gathering my thoughts.
After reading through this thread, the first thing I should put forward is was I was expecting a shaman to be. Basically, I would expect to see a class that would request the spirits for guidance for their lives. eg, if they are going on a boat trip, they would ask the Graet river spirit to look after them, going into a dungeon, ask the spirits of the stones to take care of them, but also be able to ask the greater spirits to punish the ones who bring harm (the australian aboriginals have their "pointing the bone', and I am sure you could find equivalents in other cultures).
That said, I really do not agree with the Druid list, i think it takes away too many spells that a shaman would have (like Bestow Curse) and places them purely in the nature sphere. I personally think the witch list is the closest, if we are not getting a class specific spell list.
Other options for the class that i would like to see:
-Lose medium Armour prof
-gain the ability to have both spirits as wandering spirits, maybe gaining the spirit abilities of the nominated second spirit incrementally. This would allow for a very flexible class.
-Prepared caster, but allow the shaman to spontaneous convert any spell learnt to their spirit spells
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My 2cents on what shamanism is:
The druid class predates archetypes, but if it had been created under the archetype system it would be to the cleric like ninja is to rogue. Druid is a nature priest variant cleric.
The shaman is intended to be an oracle/witch. That includes neither cleric or druid, so using a variant nature cleric list doesn't make much sense to me. While shamans can ask nature spirits for magic, they are not nature priests. Extra nature powers not on the base cleric list should be available through spirits.
Cleric and druids get their magic from worshiping higher powers. But Shamans don't worship spirits as deities, rather they speak to them as honored elders, worthy of respect, but not the same as worship. Shamans ask spirits for favors (spells) and return them in kind. (If you're familiar with L5r, the shaman is a shugenja).
I think paizo is on the right track with the spirits, but they should be able to swap them out on the fly. By doing a short ritual, like 10 minutes, they commune with a spirit, swapping out their available spells/powers to choose from.