I'm of the opinion that Spy and Secret Agent should be covered by Investigator archetypes, however. I think the fluff for this class is a bit narrow, since mechanically it's quite successful at fulfilling not just the PI, but also the gadgeteer, scientist, poisoner, and criminal mastermind roles.
The only thing wrong with this class is the name. To fit with the wide range of possible characters that could be created with this template the name should be broadened to "Mastermind."
My suggestions for the investigator would be to take out poison use, and make it a talentm, delay sneak attack to level 2 and scale appropriately,
now then
i would then add in the following abilities
Watchfull eye(EX) the investigator gains 1/2 his class level to perception and sense motive checks outside of combat.
Follow the clues (EX) the investigator uses perception rather than survival to track enemies or creatures
Interrogate (EX)the investigator can gain his class level to bluff and diplomacy when used to extract information from a target, this consumes a use of inspiration and cannot stack with inspiration.
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I would really like to see some specialized poisons for use by the investigator: Curare: sleep poison, single target. Command poison, makes victim susceptible to suggestion per the command spell, truth serum, hold poison, stun poison etc.
What I would like are non-lethal versions of spells that can influence and stop opponents, but are limited to application on a single weapon, and require an injury/injection into the subject of the poison (spell).
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Here's my suggestion for a replacement for sneak attack, if that's the plan moving forward:
Combat Insight (Ex): Once per day, an investigator can use his knowledge of anatomy and psychological behavior to aid him in combat. As a move action, the investigator chooses one target within sight to study. He makes a Sense Motive check against a DC of 10 + the target's CR; if the target is trained in Bluff, the DC is instead 10 + the target's Bluff bonus, if higher. If the Sense Motive check succeeds, the investigator adds his investigator level to all damage rolls made against the target of his study. He may also choose to add his Intelligence bonus (if any) to his attack rolls against the target or gain a dodge bonus equal to his Intelligence bonus (if any) against attacks made by the target against him.
If the investigator fails the Sense Motive roll, the attempt does not count against his uses per day, but he may not attempt to study the same target again for 24 hours.
The effects of combat insight remain until the target is dead or the next time the investigator rests and regains his uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the investigator may use combat insight one additional time per day, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.
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Once per day as a move action is pretty bleh. I'd rather have something static that doesn't devour my actions personally.
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I suppose it could be a swift action and cost a point of inspiration. I went with the move action because the oft-referenced Sherlock Holmes movies with Robert Downey Jr have that "moment of study" before the buttkicking begins, which seemed about right for a move action. On the other hand, if it's faster than a move action, it would probably also have to lose the "if you fail the roll" clause to let it not count against your uses per day.
I suppose it could be a swift action and cost a point of inspiration. I went with the move action because the oft-referenced Sherlock Holmes movies with Robert Downey Jr have that "moment of study" before the buttkicking begins, which seemed about right for a move action. On the other hand, if it's faster than a move action, it would probably also have to lose the "if you fail the roll" clause to let it not count against your uses per day.
I would suggest it starting out as a move, but having a talent that makes it a swift.
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I suppose it could be a swift action and cost a point of inspiration. I went with the move action because the oft-referenced Sherlock Holmes movies with Robert Downey Jr have that "moment of study" before the buttkicking begins, which seemed about right for a move action. On the other hand, if it's faster than a move action, it would probably also have to lose the "if you fail the roll" clause to let it not count against your uses per day.I would suggest it starting out as a move, but having a talent that makes it a swift.
I think we refer to that as a tax. Still doesn't help much at lower levels. Also happens to be a lot like the slayer's mechanic isn't it?
I think we refer to that as a tax. Still doesn't help much at lower levels. Also happens to be a lot like the slayer's mechanic isn't it?I suppose it could be a swift action and cost a point of inspiration. I went with the move action because the oft-referenced Sherlock Holmes movies with Robert Downey Jr have that "moment of study" before the buttkicking begins, which seemed about right for a move action. On the other hand, if it's faster than a move action, it would probably also have to lose the "if you fail the roll" clause to let it not count against your uses per day.I would suggest it starting out as a move, but having a talent that makes it a swift.
Taxes are not necessarily a bad thing. I think that it makes sense that you would need to take some time to study people like that. Once you get good at it (represented by taking the talent), you can do it faster. And, I don't know about the Slayer thing. Haven't gotten to look over that class yet. It's been a busy week.
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So we had a free sneak attack, and the suggestions are to burn inspiration, require skill checks, action economy, and/or further tax the class. Feels like a net loss for a class that was already behind.
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Honestly, my only problem with giving the investigator the slayer's favored target ability is that it's the slayer's favored target ability. That sounds like a decent idea for an investigator archetype, but I was working on the assumption we'd want something unique for the main class. Hence, Sense Motive smite.
dogstarrb, I believe the idea is remove sneak attack, replace with something that can be used for combat from the start.
So we had a free sneak attack, and the suggestions are to burn inspiration, require skill checks, action economy, and/or further tax the class. Feels like a net loss for a class that was already behind.
I should say that I am against losing sneak attack. Was just putting my 2 cents in on a suggested alternative.
I think that taking away sneak attack is an excellent move. They can add some ability to rebuff the damage loss. What about Investigator says sneak attack? I can see giving them a slower progression that starts at first level, or possibly just using d4s and the standard progression, but I definitely do not think they need to sneak attack as well as a rogue!
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I would like something unique.
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Defiantly some form of incentive to play the first two levels of Investigator would be appreciated. As I will be honest, even the rogue had something better to do in combat at first level. I know I said it before, but I will say it again. I would rather take 2 level dip into MOMS Monk for Kirin Style & Strike whether its for a melee or ranged Investigator build, rather than take my second level into the Investigator class without boosting my own combat prowess to pull my weight in combat situations.
I mean I will go into melee as an Investigator with my swordcane, yet I know I will need to have Kirin Style & Strike to help the party. Its not the only way to get better DPR but its that or go for a STR based Investigator as they try to bash people over the head with a swordcane with brute force.
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What about Investigator says sneak attack?
Detective fiction. Private I's try and get the drop on people whenever they have to fight.
What about Investigator says sneak attack?Detective fiction. Private I's try and get the drop on people whenever they have to fight.
Opportunist and Knowledge of Anatomy too. Precise, elegant, and intelligent! I thought it was a fitting, though sneak attack might be a bit of a misnomer(which it is for the rogue too actually).
Well, I'm sure that can be emulated just fine with an ability other than sneak attack, but I get were you two are coming from.
I would like something unique.
+1
I hope it isn't "remove SA and give it utility stuff". It need to be able to deal damage too.In other words, I hope this isn’t a offensive nerf.
Well, I'm sure that can be emulated just fine with an ability other than sneak attack, but I get were you two are coming from.
Well, asked what it could represent, not what other things can. Gotta' wait to see what its given instead though. Maybe sneak attack on an archetype... or rage because Vimes.
Fun Fact: The investigator at the moment does have an ability to use a knowledge check to give a bonus. At 7th level he can take inspirational expertise. That's a lot like what was being mentioned above. Does come a bit later though.
Fun Fact: The investigator at the moment does have an ability to use a knowledge check to give a bonus. At 7th level he can take inspirational expertise. That's a lot like what was being mentioned above. Does come a bit later though.
It's on attack rolls though, not damage.
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I am a huge fan with Kirin Style/Kirin Strike with the Investigator, however the feat tree is too delayed for too little benefit by 9th level.
I would recommend drafting a similar set of abilities to be applied at 1st or 2nd level or giving the feats for free at 1st and 2nd level. If I was going to specifically retool it for low level Investigators, then I would likely scale the damage and the action economy, as swift actions interfere with Inspirational Expertise.
How about:
"The Investigator is trained in the weaknesses of enemies far and wide. His knowledge of pressure points and weak spots coupled with his keen eye and steady hand allows for the Investigator to quickly dispatch a foe. An investigator gains a +1 to identify a creature at level 1 with an additional +1 for every 4 level gained thereafter (for a total of +5 at level 17). An investigator requires a move action to identify a creature in this manner.
After identifying a creature, an Investigator adds his Intelligence modifier to his damage for the identified creature and all similarly named creatures. The additional damage lasts for 24 hours. Multiple creatures can be identified simultaneously. This damage is a static modifier similar to Power Attack.
At 7th level, the Investigator can spend two inspiration points to double this additional damage for one round.
At 14th level, the Investigator can spend two inspiration points to triple this damage for one round."
Truth be told, I would prefer this instead of sneak attack.
I am a huge fan with Kirin Style/Kirin Strike with the Investigator, however the feat tree is too delayed for too little benefit by 9th level.
Its also pretty frontloaded and suffers as time goes on. And it devours actions.
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@ N N 959: To not be deadweight in the early levels before you even get your first talent at 3rd level? I would rather the party thrive than be held back by the Investigator guy who only makes skill checks. Apparently Poison Use is being replaced with a way to neutralize poison.
@ Ace of the Flesh Puppets: That seems a lot more fitting for a class called Investigator. Figure out the weak points, and use your intellect to find a way to deal the most damage, thinking smarter rather than working harder. Plus that version is hardly OP as by the time it can be tripled at level 14 that is like what +30 damage if they have 30 INT.
@ MrSin: Very true. Practically locks the player out of Swift actions during combat when I was playtesting my Investigator.
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I am looking at this class in a PFS way. Where the potatoes are skill checks and the meat is combat. Even the Bard class has a plate of both, good at skill checks and with songs could either hinder enemies or help allies.
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if sneak attack is an issue
the following suggestion
+1d6 sneak attack at 1st level, +1d6 at 4th level and every 3 levels after
1st-3rd 1d6
4th-6th 2d6
7th-9th 3d6
10th-12th 4d6
13th-15th 5d6
16th-18th 6d6
19th-20th 7d6
in exchange, we can add some more low level abilities and a few unique talents like Alchemist's Vice (reskinned mutagen that functions as a mutagen for all intents and purposes. could be anything from coffee to opium, even liquor or sugar.) an ability to identify poisons, disorders, and diseases more easily, and a means to recover inspiration points by gathering clues.
has anyone played this in combat yet? I love the class concept but on the surface it looks like it would be all but helpless in combat until 4th level.
it is a little disadvantaged in combat until 4th level. actually, quite disadvantaged if you dump strength. but at the same time, it has a limited supply of buffs from the alchemist list it could use if it doesn't deliberately neglect strength.
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People are clamoring to give this guy something early on for combat, right?
Why not let them spend a point of inspiration to add their Int modifier (But no more than their level) to damage for one attack? Example: At second level, a 16 int investigator would add 2 points of their int to damage when they spend inspiration for it. It's not much, but it gives another non-skill use for inspiration and there could be a talent to improve it.
Simple, effective, IMHO. I think I might even playtest with that to see how it goes.
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If investigator is going to lose sneak attack, my suggestion would be to have an investigator version of smite, similar to the movie Sherlock Holmes planning out the fight in advance.
A rough version of this idea would be:
Battle Insight:
You can use it as many times per day as you like but you can only use it on one enemy at a time. It gives an insight bonus on attack roles, damage, and AC against the target and uses a standard action of observation of the target to start (lasts until the end of combat like smite). At level 7, it goes down to a move action and then a swift action at level 13.
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Well, I still like my own idea of extra inspiration and extra sneak attack, partially locked behind an inspiration cost.
However, I can make up some new stuff too (some of this stuff is powerful enough that it could displace some sneak attack too!):
1. Special poisons [going whole hog against poison use haters]
The investigator gets a selection of special alchemical poisons every day equal to 3+int modifier at level 1 (talents and/or feats for extra; giving them this at level 1 is funny because they still risk poisoning themselves!) that can be applied to weapons
all DC 10+1/2 investigator level+int
-sleep poison (DC vs. will; ingested or from a weapon attack; +2 to resist sleep effect if delivered to an alert opponent) Save or fall asleep for a minute; can be woken by lethal damage.
-blindness poison (DC vs. fort; ingested or from weapon attack) blinds foe for 1+1d4 rounds.
-deafness poison (DC vs. fort; ingested or from weapon attack) Deafens foe for 2d4 rounds
-staggering poison (DC vs. fort) staggers the opponent for 1 round.
@MrSin and Ivan in particular
2. Knowing thy enemy [alternative to current sneak attack rules]:
Starting at 2nd level, once per round as a free action the investigator may choose one enemy to observe. On the first round she observes them enemy (which she may do at the beginning of her turn) she gains a +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls against that enemy.
If the investigator observes the same target on 2 consecutive rounds, the investigator gains the ability to deal sneak attack damage to that enemy. This sneak attack grows at a rate of 1d6 for every two levels thereafter to a maximum of 10d6 at level 20.
These bonuses last for 10 minutes after the investigator stops observing the opponent.
Starting at level 7, for each consecutive round the investigator observes an enemy the bonus to attack and damage rolls increase by +1 up to a maximum of the Investigator's intelligence or the 1/3 the investigator's class level rounded down (minimum 2 and to a maximum of +6 at level 18). [So an investigator at level 9 who observes an opponent for three consecutive rounds is receiving a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls if her intelligence is at least 3 and is eligible to deal 4d6 of sneak attack damage]
Starting at level 14 (or something) the investigator may study an opponent intensely as a move action and treat herself as though she had been watching that opponent for 3 rounds.
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People are clamoring to give this guy something early on for combat, right?
Why not let them spend a point of inspiration to add their Int modifier (But no more than their level) to damage for one attack? Example: At second level, a 16 int investigator would add 2 points of their int to damage when they spend inspiration for it. It's not much, but it gives another non-skill use for inspiration and there could be a talent to improve it.
Simple, effective, IMHO. I think I might even playtest with that to see how it goes.
Not too effective imo. You'll burn through your inspiration very quickly, especially at the lower levels. Its also not that much. If you have 16 intelligence this means you have a 3 attacks that can get +3 to damage, a total of 9. That's... pretty underwhelming. As you level you would just get more attacks that want some oomph. Compared to rogues, who when in flank or attacking someone flat footed receive on average 3.5 damage and don't burn any resources for it.
I'm not a big fan of the idea of burning inspiration to get a bonus so much as improve on what you have. Its a resource that does more than just combat, and I'd to see it get all burned up in combat and then the investigator is burned out in combat and a little bit out too! Daily resources can suffer from that unfortunately.
Edit: Gosh its easy to be critical. Sorry! I feel awful about it in retrospect.
Edit: Gosh its easy to be critical. Sorry! I feel awful about it in retrospect.
Hey, be as critical as you like. I can take it >:3
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Edit: Gosh its easy to be critical. Sorry! I feel awful about it in retrospect.Hey, be as critical as you like. I can take it >:3
Oh fine, if you have to know my real opinion I have to say... Oh my gosh your face is a cat!
To be honest I'm waiting to see what happens next time we see an update for the class to say too much. I just suck at that waiting thing I think.
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One of the things I really liked about DDO was that there was a rogue path that eventually got you your Int mod as damage to crossbows. On all attacks. Made that path pretty interesting, as otherwise it was just focused on traps. And the fact that it was limited to crossbows was a great equalizer.
People are clamoring to give this guy something early on for combat, right?
Why not let them spend a point of inspiration to add their Int modifier (But no more than their level) to damage for one attack? Example: At second level, a 16 int investigator would add 2 points of their int to damage when they spend inspiration for it. It's not much, but it gives another non-skill use for inspiration and there could be a talent to improve it.
Simple, effective, IMHO. I think I might even playtest with that to see how it goes.
Not too effective imo. You'll burn through your inspiration very quickly, especially at the lower levels. Its also not that much. If you have 16 intelligence this means you have a 3 attacks that can get +3 to damage, a total of 9. That's... pretty underwhelming. As you level you would just get more attacks that want some oomph. Compared to rogues, who when in flank or attacking someone flat footed receive on average 3.5 damage and don't burn any resources for it.
I'm not a big fan of the idea of burning inspiration to get a bonus so much as improve on what you have. Its a resource that does more than just combat, and I'd to see it get all burned up in combat and then the investigator is burned out in combat and a little bit out too! Daily resources can suffer from that unfortunately.
Edit: Gosh its easy to be critical. Sorry! I feel awful about it in retrospect.
Well, if you guys don't like my other ideas, I think it is pretty easy to power up raiderrpg's proposed power.
The inspiration point could be used to add intelligence to damage for a number of rounds equal to 1d6+1/2 investigator level (where the 1d6 is the inspiration die). Maybe as a swift action to activate?
How's that?
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Finally, by keeping those damage numbers low, you keep a class like the Rogue as a viable option. So instead looking for damage, look for other options in combat.
You also throw the investigator under a bus. Lower damage than the rogue is getting pretty abysmal and would make them pretty subpar for a good chunk of the game. Hopefully if it doesn't use sneak attack it still has a pretty awesome power of its own.(I'm hoping for some awesome archetypes myself. Sneak attack didn't seem that awful to me.)
If he was viable before that won't change. If he was subpar before, then that won't change. If there were better options than the rogue, they haven't changed either. Probably best to think about the investigator as a class of his own, because it's not changing the rogue.
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Well, if you guys don't like my other ideas, I think it is pretty easy to power up raiderrpg's proposed power.
The inspiration point could be used to add intelligence to damage for a number of rounds equal to 1d6+1/2 investigator level (where the 1d6 is the inspiration die). Maybe as a swift action to activate?
How's that?
I think part of the problem people face with a class like this is the paradigm under which it is approach. The conventional thinking is:
I need more damage.
But straight damage is not what the class is designed to do. Allowing INT to be used as a damage modifier is the worst thing they can do. INT already determines Skill points. You can't let that double as a Attack/Damage mod as well. That's bad design. Sure, people love it for their character, but it's bad for the game.
Being useful in combat does not mean you have to do damage. Disarming, tripping, debuffing, buffing, and Aid Another, are things that can increase the damage outgoing or decrease the damage incoming.
People are also not understanding the real benefit in being able to use Inspiration to boost your attack AFTER you see the roll. To give you an example, I was doing a PFS mission where we faced an ghast cleric 5. We got him down to about 10 hit points....but nobody could land that last hit to finish him off and he quickly healed back up. Later, we had an Alchemist in the group who had one tanglefoot bag. The Alchemist could not hit and missed by a couple of points. Our group got routed and technically we should have had a near TPK but for the GM softballing.
The point here, is that being able to make a timely attack that succeeds can be just as important as being able to do raw damage on average. We already have classes that excel at damage. The Investigator's strength is not going to be in DPR numbers given it has limited access to martial weapons and pulls build points into the social attributes.
Finally, by keeping those damage numbers low, you...
Hey man. I just suggested giving them special alchemical poisons every day (though I here they may be switching out poison use). Hell, you could increase those poisons to 3+int+1/2 level and replace sneak attack if debuffs only float your boat.
You want other debuffs? How about something like stunning fist with bludgeoning weapons or even the hilt of the sword? Or to go even monkier: improved feint, improved trip, and/or improved disarm (giving the investigator effective full base attack bonus for these and int instead of charisma on bluff checks for feinting).
How about just more extracts?
How about a bumbling cohort?
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Hmm.
An idea.
The investigator is all about figuring out the clues. He's smart. He isn't anyone's chump. He can solve things in the knick of time with his Inspiration pool, and previously could figure out where the enemy was least expecting a hit.
Taking this idea, maybe something like this could replace sneak attack.
At first level, they gain an ability called Studied Strike. He is able to make quick adjustments to his attacks, and rather than flurry about his enemies with his attacks, he attacks with precision. This ability is a standard action, and it lets you make one attack. You can stack this with Vital Strike and the greater and improved versions of that feat. You add your Int modifier to the damage rolls and do X. What's X?
Well, that changes as you level up. At level Y, X is maybe blinding the foe. At level Z, it's fatiguing him. You choose to apply Y or Z's effect. Or maybe you apply A's effect.
For each a point of inspiration you spend, you can make another attack with this, up to the number of attacks allowed by your base attack bonus. They take the normal iterative penalty.
This ability has a few things going for it:
Things going against this ability:
I would imagine that Paizo would like to come up with their own Kinda Main Class Feature for the Investigator :) But this was fun to think about, and I might do it as an archetype later anyways.
Hmm.
An idea.
The investigator is all about figuring out the clues. He's smart. He isn't anyone's chump. He can solve things in the knick of time with his Inspiration pool, and previously could figure out where the enemy was least expecting a hit.
Taking this idea, maybe something like this could replace sneak attack.
At first level, they gain an ability called Studied Strike. He is able to make quick adjustments to his attacks, and rather than flurry about his enemies with his attacks, he attacks with precision. This ability is a standard action, and it lets you make one attack. You can stack this with Vital Strike and the greater and improved versions of that feat. You add your Int modifier to the damage rolls and do X. What's X?
Well, that changes as you level up. At level Y, X is maybe blinding the foe. At level Z, it's fatiguing him. You choose to apply Y or Z's effect. Or maybe you apply A's effect.
For each a point of inspiration you spend, you can make another attack with this, up to the number of attacks allowed by your base attack bonus. They take the normal iterative penalty.
This ability has a few things going for it:
Studying his foes really does fit the theme, and that can be explained as the attack action.
It can start at first level.
Giving Int to damage is heavily mitigated by allowing it for only one attack per round or by having heavy costs. No more TWF investigators stabbinating foes with their smartness
dips are heavily discouraged. Giving up your full attack is a huge "no thanks!" sign for most classes not built around this sort of ability.
Pistol / hand crossbow investigators will be able to use this well. Things going against this ability:
It'll take up a lot of space, with the different choices of effects.
The damage doesn't scale well. At all. At higher levels, base damage + Int mod will be piddling. The effects would really need to be ramped up, or another thing would need to be applied.
Heavily incentivizes ranged...
I like this a lot (it is--in point of fact--not so different than the stunning fist for weapon attacks that I just suggested), but it could use some work. Frankly, it may be too powerful at level 1. Why don't we limit it to 3+int uses a day at level 1 and one additional time a day each level thereafter (to bring it in line with the alchemist's bomb ability). It should be a standard action. It should be limited to weapons that the investigator is proficient with at level 1.
At level 1, let it do (Normal damage)+1d6.
At level 3 let the inquisitor add int mod to this attack as well and increase the damage by 1d6.
The damage increases by 1d6 at every 2 levels thereafter.
At level 5, add one effect:
-dazed 1+1d4 rounds
-staggered 1 round
-blinded 1d4 rounds
Get better effects at higher levels.
At level 9, add intelligence to attack AND damage rolls.
At level 12, attack as a full round action, expending one use of this ability per day.
Best side effect of this? My gun archetype version of this is going to be boss as hell (or maybe using guns with it should just be a talent).
Has anyone else noticed that the inspiration pool doesn't actually say when it refreshes?
Read the notes on the front page, bro.