Another idea for a sneak attack replacement...
Get the Drop On Them (Ex) - The Investigator is more capable in combat when he reacts before his foes. He gains a damage bonus equal to the lesser of half his Investigator level (rounded up) and how much his initiative count exceeds the initiative count of his target.
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Played a level 1 module today and went from 1 to 2. The one thing that would have been more useful to me is that the alchemist side of the archetype does not include a Detect Magic can-trip for the character to use in connection with Spell-craft.
If I am reading the character right, this Investigator is supposed to be a knowledge sponge - a walking encyclopedia. In my opinion, that includes the ability to identify items without having to use the Identify spell ALL the time.
Spells, again, my opinion, should be used when a guaranteed result is desired, otherwise, skills should be used - hence the desire for a Detect Magic/Spell-craft combination.
They get this ability when in conjunction with potions. I think that's fair enough. You have to remember that they are not a spell caster, not in the traditional sense. They are intuitive (inspiration dice which they can add to Spellcraft either in lieu or in ADDITION to a first level extract. (Identify) While it's not the most resource effective means... it's 100% within the flavor of the class, and very dependable over other means.
Played a level 1 module today and went from 1 to 2. The one thing that would have been more useful to me is that the alchemist side of the archetype does not include a Detect Magic can-trip for the character to use in connection with Spell-craft.
If I am reading the character right, this Investigator is supposed to be a knowledge sponge - a walking encyclopedia. In my opinion, that includes the ability to identify items without having to use the Identify spell ALL the time.
Spells, again, my opinion, should be used when a guaranteed result is desired, otherwise, skills should be used - hence the desire for a Detect Magic/Spell-craft combination.
Its a problem shared with the alchemist unfortunately. The whole I have a spell list that doesn't use spells thing gets a little wonky. I wouldn't mind if the two of them learned to detect magic myself, or at least the investigator by investigating.
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I second the desire to be able to identify magic items by skill roll. The investigator is supposed to be Sherlock Holmes, Myka from warehouse 13, Olivia from Fringe, or any other myriad heroes from detective stories. These characters look at the ancient sword you found lying in the back of the troll cave and exclaim "that's the sword Glamdring, it glows blue when orcs are nearby!" They identify items by deciphering runes, recognizing their designs like art historians, or recalling them from a book they read. Perhaps they would use knowledge arcana instead of spellcraft for their identifying. Or maybe they could identify an item with a successful use magic device roll. It's part of the investigator character type, so would be nice to be available. Doesn't have to be a base ability, could be something you could choose as an investigator talent. Call it eidetic memory.
I do like identifying things.
As for combat, I'd say just let them suck it at level 1, most do anyway and optimizers can get around it anyway if it's so important (hooray, one true way incoming).
I'd give them some combat feats like the ranger, starting at level 2 and going on, say one path for guns, one for combat styles etc.
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As for combat, I'd say just let them suck it at level 1, most do anyway and optimizers can get around it anyway if it's so important (hooray, one true way incoming).
No point in making a class who can't contribute purposefully. Laying that problem on the DM or players isn't a great excuse either.
As for combat, I'd say just let them suck it at level 1, most do anyway and optimizers can get around it anyway if it's so important (hooray, one true way incoming).No point in making a class who can't contribute purposefully. Laying that problem on the DM or players isn't a great excuse either.
I am still of the mind that they are underpowered at level 1, but not necessarily to the point that needs fixing.
Regardless, I think we need to see this new combat ability before going off too long on that topic again.
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I was playing around with the idea of a Demoralizing Investigator. Did a couple quick tests with a couple pals (not official play), and it was boss from the word go.
Trait: Reactionary, Dominator
Feats: Human: Bludgeoner, Lvl 1: Enforcer
Skill: Intimidate +1+1+3(+2) to +0+1+3+3(+2) depending on build.
Alternatively you can drop Bludgeoner, and simply use a Sap. (It's less damage compared to the Heavy Mace, but it's one less feat.) Which would free you up to take either Intimidating Prowess (moving 2 points from Cha to Wis to remove the negative Will save modifier) to increase your odds of hitting the Demoralize DC.
Str: 14 | Dex: 14 | Con: 14 | Int: 16 | Wis: 08(10) | Cha: 12(10)
Or;
Str: 16 | Dex: 14 | Con: 14 | Int: 14 | Wis: 10 | Cha: 10
Shield Extract to shore up your AC while in melee. (Flank when possible to increase your odds of hitting, and thus increasing your Shaken duration.)
Heavy Mace - 1d8+2 (or +3) damage, Demoralize as a free action (10+HD+Wis vs 1d20+7(or; +9), plus an additional +1 to +6 to Intimidate skill from Inspiration for 1 pt.
Add in an Enlarge Person Extract... and you're pretty much calling it a day. You can do (B) damage to anything immune to Nonlethal, or knockout pretty much anything that isn't.
Honestly, with the RP, skill backup, and the above build... I had a ball and look forward to bringing this into the fold once I get a chance to play him officially.
Did a bit of poking around earlier and it's kind of scary how many different scholarly adventurer who gets combat advantage through knowledge checks have been done for d20-based systems.
So, sneak attack does an average of 3.5 per die extra damage, and that comes every other level, so it's something like 1.75 extra per level, assuming all hits... and since it is considered harder to achieve than some of the alternatives I have seen for it (my instinct is that flanking is probably the easiest way to meet sneak attack requirements in most cases, and it's not hard to flank in most cases either, but I'll run with the idea that it's harder to achieve overall), it is allowed to do more damage...
It's probably not too far a stretch to give them something that equalizes to +1 damage/level if they are meant to be near base rogue potential.
What if we took the smite evil mechanic and refluffed and typed it to make it based on knowledge of anatomy/weak points, or whatever else struck us as appropriate for this theme/flavor? Under a certain set of specific circumstances, you can achieve this bonus, and maybe you get +Int to attack and +1/level to damage.
I know it's not a rogue kinda thing, per se, but when I looked at what got posted upthread about the alternative sneak attack that already exists (I am drawing a blank on the name right now) where you deal +2 damage instead of +1d6, but you can get the damage bonus when you attack something subject to a negative condition. +2 damage/2 levels averages out to +1 damage/level.
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It's probably not too far a stretch to give them something that equalizes to +1 damage/level if they are meant to be near base rogue potential.
What if we took the smite evil mechanic and refluffed and typed it to make it based on knowledge of anatomy/weak points, or whatever else struck us as appropriate for this theme/flavor? Under a certain set of specific circumstances, you can achieve this bonus, and maybe you get +Int to attack and +1/level to damage.
Well, I for one think it's a pretty good idea.
Well, I for one think it's a pretty good idea.It's probably not too far a stretch to give them something that equalizes to +1 damage/level if they are meant to be near base rogue potential.
What if we took the smite evil mechanic and refluffed and typed it to make it based on knowledge of anatomy/weak points, or whatever else struck us as appropriate for this theme/flavor? Under a certain set of specific circumstances, you can achieve this bonus, and maybe you get +Int to attack and +1/level to damage.
I think this is interesting, but why would you put something 4/7 the strength of expected sneak attack progression behind uses per day? I bet the original sense motive idea is a good enough wall (done as a move and/or eventually a swift). I mean: smite evil is GREAT in the hands of a Paladin (or Cavalier) because of their full attack progression and many landing hits while the investigator is gonna share the rouge's accuracy problems. In general, I think people will come to "expect" that the investigator is going to only land one big attack a turn.
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Because it lacks pretty much all the other weaknesses of sneak attack, as well as most of the weaknesses of smite evil too? And the skill use is pretty much a joke for a barrier - I only included it for flavor. By mid-levels, it'd be an auto-succeed for any opponent not Bluff-trained, and probably for most of them too. Besides all that, it also adds the primary stat for the Investigator to the attack, rather than what is most likely the secondary stat for the paladin (and the cav of course gets no inherent attack bonus at all).
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Still doubt that we'll be getting a skill-use based ability.
Then make it a special investigator check or put it behind some other barrier maybe?
Earlier, I proposed a multi-turn free action observation mechanic. Allow me to reintroduce it in this context:
Once per round at the end of the investigator's turn, the investigator may focus their attention on a single enemy as a free action, passively analyzing their opponent as they do other things.
After the first round of observation, the investigator gains her level as an insight bonus to weapon damage rolls against that enemy for a number of minutes equal to her int modifier (minimum 1).
Starting at level 4, an investigator may observe the same enemy for two consecutive rounds. After the second round, the investigator gains half of her intelligence modifier as a competence bonus to attack rolls and AC against that enemy's attacks.
At level 8, this competence bonus to attack rolls is equal to the investigator's whole intelligence modifier.
At level 12, the investigator may spend a move action to act as though she had analyzed any one enemy for two turns.
I like this for a lot of reasons!
1: it gives the investigator an interesting "rhythm" in combat. They first take a round of setup where they aren't super effective combatants themselves (drinking an extract or maybe using Aid another) and then start contributing to melee or ranged damage in the second round.
2: it fits the investigator theme
3: it still lets the investigator be a sneaky bastard. By lying in wait a few round, the Investigator can still jump out and do big damage.
How does that sound?
Glad people like my idea~
I will note that maybe the investigator should eventually be able to study more than one foe at once (like two at level 5 and one more every 5 levels thereafter to a maximum of the Investigator's intelligence modifier). Or perhaps just spend an inspiration point for the ability to study a number of foes in a turn equal to her intelligence modifier (the point spent gives this ability for like a minute).
One thing I would like to investigate (HAH!) is how to leverage the quicker Aid Anothers. With Arcane Strike and Gloves of Arcane Striking, we can add a nice bonus to Aid Anothers which are quicker.
I'm looking around for ways to get halflings a SLA, since they tend to have hte nice Aid Another related things. They specifically need an SLA where the CL matches your level.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, Contributor
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One thing I would like to investigate (HAH!) is how to leverage the quicker Aid Anothers. With Arcane Strike and Gloves of Arcane Striking, we can add a nice bonus to Aid Anothers which are quicker.
I'm looking around for ways to get halflings a SLA, since they tend to have hte nice Aid Another related things. They specifically need an SLA where the CL matches your level.
Check out Wendifa Apprentice. It's a faith trait from Faiths and Philosophies.
As for combat, I'd say just let them suck it at level 1, most do anyway and optimizers can get around it anyway if it's so important (hooray, one true way incoming).No point in making a class who can't contribute purposefully. Laying that problem on the DM or players isn't a great excuse either.I am still of the mind that they are underpowered at level 1, but not necessarily to the point that needs fixing.
Regardless, I think we need to see this new combat ability before going off too long on that topic again.
At level 1 perhaps, but at lower levels I'm of the opposite opinion in some ways.
I think they are a little more powerful than a Rogue and alchemist combined overall. Perhaps that's what they are trying to do, but in levels 3-5 it seemed the investigator was able to do just as well as a Rogue, match the alchemist if they were smart in their thinking, and hence be better then either one.
However, the one major weakness with the inspiration points seems to have already been addressed.
For those unaware, there was a podcast last night by Know Direction with Jason Bulmahn as a guest and they talked about the Advanced Class Guide and the playtest and spoilered some of the upcoming changes to the classes.
There is a thread with mine, and others', notes here: Podcast Notes.
When they first mentioned it was a Sherlock type class, I absolutely expected this due to the Robert Downey films and how they show combat. While I think it's dumb in the movies, for an RPG class it'd be a great mechanic.
Apparently according to the podcast, this is what they'll be replacing sneak attack with. A more Robert Downey type damage mechanic.
So yeah, I called it. As did, probably 50 other people, but I called calling it.
When they first mentioned it was a Sherlock type class, I absolutely expected this due to the Robert Downey films and how they show combat. While I think it's dumb in the movies, for an RPG class it'd be a great mechanic.Apparently according to the podcast, this is what they'll be replacing sneak attack with. A more Robert Downey type damage mechanic.
So yeah, I called it. As did, probably 50 other people, but I called calling it.
Sure sure but called it Studied Strike. Clearly I am a genius at coming up with obvious names for things!
Anyway I am super super happy about this. Investigator started as my favorite class in the ACG and it looks like it may just well stay there!
When they first mentioned it was a Sherlock type class, I absolutely expected this due to the Robert Downey films and how they show combat. While I think it's dumb in the movies, for an RPG class it'd be a great mechanic.Apparently according to the podcast, this is what they'll be replacing sneak attack with. A more Robert Downey type damage mechanic.
So yeah, I called it. As did, probably 50 other people, but I called calling it.
Sure sure but called it Studied Strike. Clearly I am a genius at coming up with obvious names for things!
Anyway I am super super happy about this. Investigator started as my favorite class in the ACG and it looks like it may just well stay there!
Tirisfal I think called it first. Boo on you :P
Tirisfal I think called it first. Boo on you :PWhen they first mentioned it was a Sherlock type class, I absolutely expected this due to the Robert Downey films and how they show combat. While I think it's dumb in the movies, for an RPG class it'd be a great mechanic.Apparently according to the podcast, this is what they'll be replacing sneak attack with. A more Robert Downey type damage mechanic.
So yeah, I called it. As did, probably 50 other people, but I called calling it.
Sure sure but called it Studied Strike. Clearly I am a genius at coming up with obvious names for things!
Anyway I am super super happy about this. Investigator started as my favorite class in the ACG and it looks like it may just well stay there!
I am so glad that this can be the discussion for this class. YAY for investigators! I can't wait to see what they cooked up for the next version of the playtest.
P.S. Totally mine... I'm calling it... DIBS DIIIIBSS!!
This is indeed exciting news. I am gonna think hard at punching the guys.
Tirisfal I think called it first. Boo on you :PWhen they first mentioned it was a Sherlock type class, I absolutely expected this due to the Robert Downey films and how they show combat. While I think it's dumb in the movies, for an RPG class it'd be a great mechanic.Apparently according to the podcast, this is what they'll be replacing sneak attack with. A more Robert Downey type damage mechanic.
So yeah, I called it. As did, probably 50 other people, but I called calling it.
Sure sure but called it Studied Strike. Clearly I am a genius at coming up with obvious names for things!
Anyway I am super super happy about this. Investigator started as my favorite class in the ACG and it looks like it may just well stay there!
Actually my post is two hours older than theirs. yes... I checked...
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According to the search function, I called it Studied Strike first :p
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So, a problem I noticed with GMing for the Investigator.
I sometimes like making hidden checks for my players, like rolling perception checks for hidden clues and such when I don't want to get a hint that there's something here.
I don't feel comfortable doing that with the investigator because I am denying them the choice to use their ability.
Additionally I like adding in extra rolls from time to time, like perception checks when nothing is around, to help keep the players on their toes. I don't want to make the investigator waste their inspiration points on extra checks I have them make when nothing is around...
So inspiration is a little problematic for me.
So they don't get Inspiration on reaction checks. I don't see a huge problem. If they want to spend Inspiration on a Perception check, they can take a move action and search.
If they care about it and don't want to spend inspiration on what may be a joke roll, they can get the talent that lets them add it for free.
You know, instead of the Craft (alchemy) thing, how about just giving the Investigator detect magic as an at-will cantrip? In fact, why not just give the class access to cantrips? Being able to detect magic, or conjure lights, or move objects without touching them, would all be very valuable to an Investigator class.
A lot of people think the poison doesn't fit this class.
I say "Come on! Join the dark/GM side!".
This class can be the pretty best BBEG you can land on your party! He's the guy that when the party sees him (as the BBEG at least), they can only think "I would have faced 2 balors alone than met this man". And he doesn't need a 9th level spells for that!
And I find that, anyway, the use of poison should be universal: You're a good guy but need to pass the law ? Use some sleeping drugs on the guards, it will be easy and okay!
On the sneak attack topic, I got mixed feelings, but I think it should probably be nerfed a little (a 6d6 litke the slayer seems fine to me).
Yeah, I don't want to bury the rogue like that, because this investigator... Ho boy it's the rogue I always dreamt to play!
Hm I saw this in the archetype thread. I'm curious about that thought; because I know nothing of this style (they reference artifcer and that machinmist classes).
They talked about dropping extracts and gaining tools, or traps (?). Are people generally happy with extracts? Or would they like one of those weirder things that aren't directly magic?
That's unfortunately a bit too complicated for what would be available in the archetype space, and would most likely monopolize a large chunk of available Investigator archetype space. :(
That's unfortunately a bit too complicated for what would be available in the archetype space, and would most likely monopolize a large chunk of available Investigator archetype space. :(
If what is asked is near the Trapper for ranger, I think it can be okay, nope ?
That's unfortunately a bit too complicated for what would be available in the archetype space, and would most likely monopolize a large chunk of available Investigator archetype space. :(If what is asked is near the Trapper for ranger, I think it can be okay, nope ?
I think you should just be petitioning for a new class with radically new mechanics. Engineer is not really an alchemist/rogue.
I actually have some ideas for how to handle a magical engineer in a way that is not the magic item king that was the 3.5 Artificer.
I actually have some ideas for how to handle a magical engineer in a way that is not the magic item king that was the 3.5 Artificer.
You're not exactly the only one whose had ideas for an engineer sort of class. There are several published ideas on it. Some more steampunkish than others.
How cheeky!
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You know, instead of the Craft (alchemy) thing, how about just giving the Investigator detect magic as an at-will cantrip? In fact, why not just give the class access to cantrips? Being able to detect magic, or conjure lights, or move objects without touching them, would all be very valuable to an Investigator class.
+ 0.5 ;)
I'd go one step further and say the Investigator should have cantrips! These Cantrips are all rock solid choices for the InvestigatorAnd I wouldn’t mind these:
You know, instead of the Craft (alchemy) thing, how about just giving the Investigator detect magic as an at-will cantrip? In fact, why not just give the class access to cantrips? Being able to detect magic, or conjure lights, or move objects without touching them, would all be very valuable to an Investigator class.+ 0.5 ;)
I'd go one step further and say the Investigator should have cantrips! These Cantrips are all rock solid choices for the Investigator
Detect magic
Detect poison
Mage hand
Open/Close
Sift And I wouldn’t mind these:
Mending
Message
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation:
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Stabilize
Dancing Lights (or Light)
I like. Kill poison use and that 'Craft (alchemy) thing', add cantrips! I'd love it!
I like. Kill poison use and that 'Craft (alchemy) thing', add cantrips! I'd love it!You know, instead of the Craft (alchemy) thing, how about just giving the Investigator detect magic as an at-will cantrip? In fact, why not just give the class access to cantrips? Being able to detect magic, or conjure lights, or move objects without touching them, would all be very valuable to an Investigator class.+ 0.5 ;)
I'd go one step further and say the Investigator should have cantrips! These Cantrips are all rock solid choices for the Investigator
Detect magic
Detect poison
Mage hand
Open/Close
Sift And I wouldn’t mind these:
Mending
Message
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation:
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Stabilize
Dancing Lights (or Light)
Exactly! It's an Investigator. It would be nice if it had the tools to live up to it's name a bit more. :)
Exactly! It's an Investigator. It would be nice if it had the tools to live up to it's name a bit more. :)I like. Kill poison use and that 'Craft (alchemy) thing', add cantrips! I'd love it!You know, instead of the Craft (alchemy) thing, how about just giving the Investigator detect magic as an at-will cantrip? In fact, why not just give the class access to cantrips? Being able to detect magic, or conjure lights, or move objects without touching them, would all be very valuable to an Investigator class.+ 0.5 ;)
I'd go one step further and say the Investigator should have cantrips! These Cantrips are all rock solid choices for the Investigator
Detect magic
Detect poison
Mage hand
Open/Close
Sift And I wouldn’t mind these:
Mending
Message
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation:
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Stabilize
Dancing Lights (or Light)
Throw in Create Water and the Investigator can pose as drink vendor who uses Create Water and Prestidigitation to give you delicious, yet healthy drinks. If he had Ray of Frost, he could even make Snow Cones!
That is my idea and I will kill you if you try to steal it!
Just kidding!
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Tels,
You should stop using that emoticon. It's one character away from a serious violation of posting rules.