I think the developer expectation is that the brawler is supposed to be able to use the feat changes on the fly (that is what the swift and immediate action activation suggests at least). The problem is of course that it is rare for a single feat to make the difference at a moment's notice, while additionally the number of uses per day is very limited making any choices crucially important.
A suggestion to ease the use of Martial Maneuvers:
Allow swift action activation to add a single feat but not lose existing feats selected. As appropriate (when already at maximum activatable feats for that level) the swift action additionally removes one of the previously active feats (brawler's choice).
Essentially this allows the brawler to "ramp up" his feats over a couple of turns, without giving up full-round actions.
That's a pretty good idea. I can see the ability being quite handy for grabbing stuff like blindfighting when you really need it. I never take that feat, but there are certainly times when I wish I had it.
The problem with feats is that they are for the most part evolutionary rather than revolutionary; so a single feat tends to be of the powerlevel: "add +1 to dodge AC".
The exceptions exist of course, and when you take whole feat trees, then you can start something potent. The style feats for example are incredible.
I think this thread has gone on long enough without someone repeating that the brawler should get some form of fuse styles ability.
FUSE STYLES!!!! :D
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I would like to add my 2 cents considering i have been looking for an unarmed build that can go up front and beat stuff up on a regular basis for quite some time, the Brawler seems to fit that need quite nicely on first glance.
D10 HD, full BAB and ability to overcome DR is a nice start. Especially the DR part reduces the need for an AoMF and still lets you deal damage on higher levels.
But on second glance the main prolem in comparison to normal TWF builds remains(and please this is not meant as a discussion about TWF, i think there has been enough of that, but i think this should at least be the benchmark here):
The flexibility, choice of materials and variety of critical hit ranges and multipliers is just not there. Plus to get any bonus to attack/damage, you once again need the AoMF which in return lowers your AC even more, even though you do not even have access to medium or heavy armor. Not to speak of enchantments.
Now the thing with TWF is that in order to deal significant damage you need to full attack considering Power Attack is just not an option. And you need a good attack bonus, because the penalty for TWF makes hitting that much harder, especially on the later iteratives. So in the best case you can move fast and especially have a high ini, so you at least get one or two full attacks in.
And i think here lies the most frustrating part of the Brawler. You do not get Masterwork transformation, you do not get weapon training, you cannot as cheaply enchant your unarmed strikes (AoMF) and also give up a slot doing so and you can not add any other enchantment. Of course the argument here is, well you get more damage dice but if you cannot hit whoever is in front of you it does not do you any good whatsoever. Especially considering that we are talking about a bonus damage of maybe 1 up until 12th level. Just to throw it out there, by that level with the two weapon warrior archetype you can be dual-wielding Falcatas like light weapons with 19-20/*3 crit!!!
Which brings me to the crit point. Not only are we talking obvious damage, we are also talking a whole row of feats which would be perfectly suited for use with Martial Maneuvers. But that would only fly if at least the crit range went up.
Now your solution to just let the Brawler use more weapons really goes against what i think should be the point of this class: A guy who pummels you with his fists/body.
More weapons just is like saying: We know unarmed strike sucks, we do not know how to fix it so here is some weapons so you can build a two weapon fighter just that he cannot use proper armor and is lacking in feats. If you have to, let cestus or brass knuckles be part of the flurry, but i think that is just a cheap fix, not a proper solution
Yes you do not need the Dex like you would for a two weapon fighter. But you also loose a lot of Armor and especially feats (like two weapon rend for instance).
And please, you have to change the required time for martial maneuvers to a swift action. As i just said, in order to deal damage two weapon fighting (or brawlers flurry) you need to full attack, which means you spend your first turn moving towards your enemy (for instance with a charge) to try and clobber him the next. If you can't move because you want to power up with martial maneuvers, well you might start dealing damage in round 3. And by that time your one move action might not be enough, so you might just end up full attacking in round 4...
Now i do have an idea how to fix this, and it might just fix unarmed strike for the brawler:
If the brawler has his body forged into a weapon, why not have some weird wizards/crazy alchemists that like to tinker wíth humans enchant his unarmed strike. Because you need to find such a special character, the cost is 100% more than with a normal weapon.
That way you are not unfair when it comes to pricing compared to fighting with two weapons, you still do not have the masterwork transformation or material choices (especially at lower levels) and you can still use your neck slot to boost your already low armor. It would fix the criticism most heard when it comes to amulet of mighty fists and offer the same benefit, at the same price just without the drawbacks.
You still take a lot of hits, but this would fit the brawler theme, where you have a guy who does not use weapons, why would he wear heavy armor? And you don't have to use the workaround of allowing weapons.
If you then put the crit range at 19-20, it might seem overpowered, but you have no class features enhancing your attack regularly, so the chance for your iteratives to hit is significantly lower.
This way the Brawler would do enough damage to compete, not do too much and really offer a different style of character, one that focuses on unarmed strikes and some martial maneuvers. If you leave the option for body enchantment as a class feature, it will really be unique and go into more being a class of his own.
Now i hope someone takes the time to read this, for all the others:
TL;DR
The shortcomings of unarmed strike compared to weapons could be fixed by allowing the Brawler to have his unarmed strike enchanted at twice the normal cost. If you add an expanded crit range and maybe martial maneuvers as a swift action, you end up with an unarmed build that can compete damage wise while offering unique flavor.
^Basically a summary of every Monk thread ever made.
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So, in playtesting, I am directly comparing a Fighter/Lore Warden 1, Monk/Ki Mystic/Qinggong Monk 14 with a Brawler 15. The Brawler I made...A follow up to my previous post on 11/23/2013. See my previous post for more info.
An addendum to my previous posts about running a 15th Level Brawler in Shattered Star.
I realized after thinking about this some more that I've totally focused on Martial Maneuvers. I thought I'd add some comments about Maneuver Training and Combat Maneuvers.
Maneuver Training is a gem. It enables the Brawler, together with Martial Maneuvers (when you can get it to work) to actually be able to do combat maneuvers at high levels. If you look at the boards, there are plenty of posts, both anecdotal and by guys who take a more mathematical approach, where people decry the difficulty of using combat maneuvers at high levels. I tend to agree with them. However, twice, once per session, I actually got into a position where I was able to attempt a trip maneuver before the combat ended. In both cases, my Brawler successfully tripped his opponent. The GM was quite surprised as he's used to his high CR creatures being mostly immune to trip.
I also would like to second another poster's recommendation that you prepare a cheat sheet. I did this as well and it really, really helps. I'm no beginner, but selecting feats, and figuring out their modifiers on the fly, is no picnic. My cheat sheet for my 15th level Brawler runs two pages. It consists of three sections, one for a single feat, one for two feats and one for three feats. I go beyond simply listing the feats, but also summarizing their effects and pre-calculating the changes to CMB, etc. For example, here's the 3 feat list:
Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, Greater Blind-Fight: Melee attacks ignore miss chance for less than total concealment. Melee attacks only miss 20% versus total concealment. May re-roll miss. Invisible attacker gets no advantages to hit you in melee. If attacker pinpointed, they get no advantages to hitting you with ranged attacks. Do not need to make Acrobatics checks to move while blinded.
Combat Reflexes, Pin Down, Step-Up: May make a number of additional AOOs per round equal to your DEX bonus (+5). You may also make AOOs while flat-footed. When opponent you threated takes a 5’ step or uses the withdraw action, they provoke an AOO from you. If attack hits, you deal no damage, but target is prevented from moving. Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5’ step away from you, you can take an Immediate Action to also make a 5’ step to remain adjacent. If you take 5’ step, lose 5’ from movement in next turn, and no 5’ step.
Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm, Break Guard: +4 (+32, PA +28) CMB, No AOO, +2 CMD vs Disarm, Weapon Lands 15’ away, May Grab Weapon. If successful at Disarm, may use Swift Action to attack opponent with other weapon.
Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm, Disarming Strike: +4 (+32, PA +28) CMB, No AOO, +2 CMD vs Disarm, Weapon Lands 15’ away, May Grab Weapon. If you score a Critical Hit with a melee attack, you can disarm opponent if your confirmation roll exceeds opponent’s CMD (No AOO).
Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Fury’s Fall: +4 +Dex Mod (+40, PA +36) CMB, No AOO, +2 CMD vs Trip,, Tripped Opponent Provokes AOO.
Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack: +4 AC versus AOO caused by movement. As Full Round Action, may move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking AOO from target. You can move both before and after the attack, but must move at least 10’ before the attack. OR as Full Round Action may give up regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest BAB against each opponent within reach (you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells or abilities).
I'm about 150 xp short of 16th level, so next time we play Shattered Star, I should be trying out Knockout and will report the results.
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...About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
My suggestion is a pumped up Awesome Blow. Essentially it is just Awesome Blow, but the brawler is considered one size category larger and is automatically under the effect of a True Strike spell.
Truly Awesome Blow
As a standard action, the brawler may perform an awesome blow combat maneuver. The brawler is considered one size category larger for the purpose of this maneuver and gains a +20 insight bonus to her roll. If the combat maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed strike, is knocked flying 10 feet, plus and additional 5 feet for every 5 that the roll exceeds the opponents CMD, in a direction of the brawler’s choice, and falls prone. The brawler can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the brawler than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage for every 10' the opponent was knocked back, and the opponent is knocked prone in the space adjacent to the obstacle.
So with a 20 BAB, +10 Str, +5 enhancement and an Enlarge Person the brawler could knock back a huge size creature with a CMB of +57. The brawler would be limited to only one attack a round like this, but it would almost definitely hit.
I was thinking of something to add to this discussion, but I'm really liking this idea.
I'd change it to Two Sizes larger, so they could awesome blow huge creatures.
Another option:
I'm aware of the standard size bonuses. I made the bonus +8 to account for typically getting +6 to +8 (depending on starting size) Strength for changing size, and because its only adding to the CMB and CMD.
I think this thread has gone on long enough without someone repeating that the brawler should get some form of fuse styles ability.
FUSE STYLES!!!! :D
I actually think that rather putting this into the core brawler class; something like fuse styles should be made available via one of the brawler archetypes.
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The fact that none of the devs have commented even a single time on the idea gives me great hope that the reason is because they're sitting there with their hands over their mouths, snickering, because they already have an archetype made up that does that.
The fact that none of the devs have commented even a single time on the idea gives me great hope that the reason is because they're sitting there with their hands over their mouths, snickering, because they already have an archetype made up that does that.
What was that? :P
You fiend!
That's strike one, dirtbag.
After considering my own experiments and the playtest feedback in this thread, I've posted a revised suggestion on how the brawler could be improved in my opinion. In this thread.
The key features are the changes to Martial Maneuvers (and the way you determine what feats qualify for that ability), as well as the Brawler Skills (akin to rogue talents, rage powers, etc). I think that the interaction between martial maneuvers and brawler skills is particularly interesting.
Please have a look and consider.
Can a brawler use Martial Mastery to emulate style feats?
Yes. Style feats are also combat feats.
Dang it… I was going through, building my Witchwolf Brawler, thinking how fun it would be to use Wolf Style, when I realized that I can't unless I get 13 in Int (with a -2 racial) for the two feats it takes to get Improved Trip. Which also kind of kills the trip 'n rip Aberrant Bloodrager. Years late to the party on this, I know, but I'm used to playing casters or getting Improved Trip through Monk.
Would be nice to get a Brawler archetype that can some how bonus-feat his way into tripping people. For the meantime, I can stick with Monk for the tripping.
@QuidEst:
If you don't need to get it all done at level 1, having a headband of +2 to Intelligence will allow you to qualify for the feats (assuming 11 Int base before the item).
Of course the feats only work while you're wearing the headband, but that should be fine.
Ok I love this class, its perfect for a concept I am just waiting to play, but ... take with a grain of salt...
I don't like Martial Maneuvers. I know, I know. But floating abilities have a tendency to bog down play. I have enough trouble around the table with casters picking spells, opening up the feats to the same concept I think. I think you should replace it with this stuff...
I like the idea of the "Pummel" version of Flurry of Blows. I don’t' like that brawler's flurry uses two-weapon fighting. Flurry surpasses the effectiveness of two-weapon fighting and I think that "Pummel" should follow the same model.
Give them "Brutality" which expands the crit range of unarmed strike. Let it stack with Improved Critical.
Give them "One-Two", as a standard action let them make two attacks at BAB-2
Give them "Haymaker", Vital Stike at 6th level, increasing as they level(Improved at 11,Greater at 16).
Change Maneuver Training to "Single Minded Focus", Keep Maneuver Training Bonus and add Weapon Training bonus for "Brawler" weapons.
Just add a new category of weapons called Brawler Weapons. Allow them to be used with the Brawler abilities. Add light hammer (Old Boy) and Great club.
Drop the AC bonus and grant combat expertise at 4th instead.
While it all looks great, the class sorely misses out on range and mobility (no fast movement), but that is why we have teammates. It would be an awesome hand to hand fighter and well not much else.
Just my 2 cents..
"Drop the AC bonus and grant combat expertise at 4th instead."+1 on this would save the class a little less mad.
that and medium armor prof. this class would be perfect.
Actually giving out free combat expertise is not a panacea. Most of the maneuvers which require you to have it is a prerequisite also require a 13 Int. I find this out a while back when I was thinking a rogue with an 8 Int could get some good stuff going by taking a few levels of Lore Warden, but the stuff down the feat chains still need the Int.
Improved Trip, Improved Dirty Trick, and Improved Disarm all require a 13 Int as well.
You know I intended to leave the Int 13 requirement to be a problem if you wanted the combat maneuvers, just allow the bypassing of it for Combat Expertise.
But now that you mention it...
If you left it an AC bonus, you could stack it with Combat Expertise. To give yourself a little more Defense. So I can see an argument to leave it alone.
The other way to do it would be allow the class to ignore all stat requirements on Combat Feats. Would that break anything?
You know I intended to leave the Int 13 requirement to be a problem if you wanted the combat maneuvers, just allow the bypassing of it for Combat Expertise.
But now that you mention it...
If you left it an AC bonus, you could stack it with Combat Expertise. To give yourself a little more Defense. So I can see an argument to leave it alone.
The other way to do it would be allow the class to ignore all stat requirements on Combat Feats. Would that break anything?
Only suspension of disbelieve.
"Oh look, see, I bash people with my hands real good like. That's why I don't need none of them whatchamacallem... brain... things... inside my head. I can combat expertise'm and stunning fist'em like the best of'em."
Also there are some feats that require fairly high stats, like 15+ and even 17+ - I'm really not comfortable of waving those requirements for a brawler.
A monk. Yes. I can see that, their already MAD crazy and the flavor and theme can work for skipping stat requirements. But a brawler?
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Sean K Reynolds recommends I post this in the main brawler discussion thread. Please be gentle, but consider the ideas:
I am a big proponent of class diversity and flexibility; that is why I strongly support class designs that make use of abilities such as rogue talents, rage powers, arcane exploits, and so forth. I really think that the brawler would benefit from this as well, and along those lines consider the changes to the class suggested below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brawler is proficient with all simple weapons . She is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Martial Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler can spend a to gain the benefit of a feat she doesn't possess for 1 minute. . The brawler must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. She may use this ability a number of times per day . If this ability is triggered before the duration expires, the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a new one in its place. If a feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that feat while using this ability count toward that feat’s daily limit.
At 6th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of two feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a or two feats as a . At 10th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a swift action, two feats as a move action, or three feats as a standard action. At 12th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of one feat as an immediate action.
Each feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.
Unarmed Strike:
Brawler Skills:
Maneuver Training:
Brawler's Flurry:
Brawler Strike (Su):
Awesome Blow (Ex):
Brawler Skills: Starting at 2nd level, a brawler gains one brawler skill. She gains an additional brawler skill for every 2 levels of brawler attained after 2nd level. Except where indicated, a brawler cannot select an individual skill more than once. Brawling skills marked with an asterisk cannot be used in rounds where the brawler makes use of her brawler's flurry class ability.
Acrobatic master: A brawler with this skill gains the Skill Focus (acrobatics) feat and may always Take 10 on acrobatic checks.
Brawling dodger: A brawler with this skill gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and CMD when she wears light armor, or +2 when she wear no armor. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 levels of brawler she possesses. A brawler may pick this skill a second time, doing so increases the bonus by +1 for every 3 levels instead of every 5 levels. A brawler must be at least 6th level before picking this skill a second time.
Brutal: A brawler with this skill adds +2 to the DC of any ability gained through brawler skills (such as knockout and stun specialist).
Combat training: A brawler may chose a combat feat instead of a brawling skill, she must meet the prerequisites of that combat feat. A brawler may pick this skill any number of times. When chosing combat training, a brawler may change any feats gained previously with combat training; she must still meet all the prerequisites of feats chosen.
Enduring maneuvers: Feats gained through martial maneuvers last for 10 minutes. A brawler may pick this skill a second time, if she does so, then feats gained through martial maneuvers last for 1 hour.
Extra maneuver feat: A brawler with this skill increases the total number of feats that she may gain from martial maneuvers by 1 (thus at second level she could have up to 2 feats, at sixth level up to 3 feats, and at 10th level up to 4 feats).
Extra maneuvers: A brawler with this skill may use martial maneuvers a number of times per day equal to twice her class level.
Fast: A brawler with this skill gains a +10 bonus to her speed. A brawler may pick this skill once for every 4 brawler levels she possesses.
Finesse brawler: A brawler with this skill gains the Weapon Finesse feat.
Grappling specialist: A brawler with this skill deals an additional +1d6 damage when using grapples to inflict damage.
Great fortitude: A brawler with this skill gains the Great Fortitude feat.
Knockout (Su): A brawler with this skill can unleash a devastating attack that can instantly knock a target unconscious. She must announce this intent before making her attack roll. If the brawler strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the brawler’s level + the higher of the brawler’s Strength or Dexterity modifier) or fall unconscious for 1d6 rounds. A brawler may use this ability once a day for at level 16, and once more for every two levels above level 16. Creatures immune to critical hits or nonlethal damage are immune to this ability. A brawler must be level 16 before selecting this brawler skill.
Painful punches (Ex): A brawler with this skill may add +5 to the damage she deals with unarmed strikes, instead of bonus damage gained from Strength or Dexterity. A brawler must be at least 4th level before selecting this skill.
Professional: A brawler with this skill considers her brawler level as her fighter level + 2 for the purpose of qualifying for combat feats.
Stun specialist: A brawler with this skill gains the Stunning Fist feat. She considers her brawler level as her monk level for the purpose of determining how many times a day she can use the Stunning Fist feat. She need not meet the prerequisites of the feat, but she must be a 4th level brawler to select this brawler skill.
Style savant: A brawler with this skill may chose a single style feat, or feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite, without meeting that feats requirements.
Tough brawler: A brawler with this skill gains the Toughness feat, additionally she gains +1 natural armor bonus to AC.
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You know I intended to leave the Int 13 requirement to be a problem if you wanted the combat maneuvers, just allow the bypassing of it for Combat Expertise.
But now that you mention it...
If you left it an AC bonus, you could stack it with Combat Expertise. To give yourself a little more Defense. So I can see an argument to leave it alone.
The other way to do it would be allow the class to ignore all stat requirements on Combat Feats. Would that break anything?
Only suspension of disbelief.
"Oh look, see, I bash people with my hands real good like. That's why I don't need none of them whatchamacallem... brain... things... inside my head. I can combat expertise'm and stunning fist'em like the best of'em."
Also there are some feats that require fairly high stats, like 15+ and even 17+ - I'm really not comfortable of waving those requirements for a brawler.
A monk. Yes. I can see that, their already MAD crazy and the flavor and theme can work for skipping stat requirements. But a brawler?
Quite honestly, the fact that you need 13 Int to know how to knock somebody over is what breaks my suspension of disbelief.
If you don't need to get it all done at level 1, having a headband of +2 to Intelligence will allow you to qualify for the feats (assuming 11 Int base before the item).
Of course the feats only work while you're wearing the headband, but that should be fine.
That's a good point. I think I was just trying to cram it all in a little too early. Also, I just noticed that Wolf Style doesn't specifically require playing a Witchwolf Skinwalker, so the racial penalty to intelligence isn't a problem.
Sean K Reynolds recommends I post this in the main brawler discussion thread. Please be gentle, but consider the ideas:
I am a big proponent of class diversity and flexibility; that is why I strongly support class designs that make use of abilities such as rogue talents, rage powers, arcane exploits, and so forth. I really think that the brawler would benefit from this as well, and along those lines consider the changes to the class suggested below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brawler is proficient with all simple weapons . She is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Martial Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler can spend a to gain the benefit of a feat she doesn't possess for 1 minute. . The brawler must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. She may use this ability a number of times per day . If this ability is triggered before the duration expires, the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a new one in its place. If a feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that feat while using this ability count toward that feat’s daily limit.
At 6th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of two feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a or two feats as a . At 10th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a swift action, two feats as a move action, or three feats as a standard action. At 12th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of one feat as an immediate action.
...
Yes. Still not caring for Brawler Strike, it maybe could be a skill, but every thing else is just awesomesauce.
Only suspension of disbelieve."Oh look, see, I bash people with my hands real good like. That's why I don't need none of them whatchamacallem... brain... things... inside my head. I can combat expertise'm and stunning fist'em like the best of'em."
Also there are some feats that require fairly high stats, like 15+ and even 17+ - I'm really not comfortable of waving those requirements for a brawler.
A monk. Yes. I can see that, their already MAD crazy and the flavor and theme can work for skipping stat requirements. But a brawler?
"YO ADRIAN!"
OK, good point. What if they just get to treat stat requirements at -2 for qualifying for feats?
BRAWLER
I dig the skills idea.
As a wacky idea, call it archtypes, anyone think adding Bloodrager bloodlines would be awesome for creating those wacky fighting game fighter types?
Aberrant Brawler = Dhalsim?
Elemental Cold = Sub-Zero?
So, I'm curious. What can the brawler class do better than an NPC class, aside from killing people?
Ask a Fighter. ;)
So, I'm curious. What can the brawler class do better than an NPC class, aside from killing people?
The Adept, Commoner, and Warrior have 2 + Int modifier in skill points, the Aristocrat has 4 + Int modifier and the Expert has 6 + Int modifier.
The Brawler has 4 + Int Modifier skill points, so he's as better than Adepts, Commoners and Warriros in skills, and as good as the Aristocrat, but not as good as an Expert.
It should be mentioned that the Adept is a caster, but it's a unique caster and doesn't have the same utility as the 6th level casters do so it's in a really odd place. It's spells let it be more useful, out of combat, than a Brawler probably can be, but only if there aren't any PC class casters around.
When it comes down to it, what the Brawler do better than NPC classes is the same as what any other 4 + Int skill class can do. He's a better skill monkey than 3/5 of the NPC classes, and a better martial character to boot.
He could be a prison warden, a thug, a tournament fighter, an enforcer, a city guard, or royal guard. He can do basically anything other martials can do, as well or better than they can.
@VM mercenario:
Thanks :) - to be honest I've got different ideas about most of the class abilities on the brawler; but I decided an evolutionary suggestion will allow the focus to be on the brawler skills, rather than a revolutionary suggestion where too much is going on.
Lorekeeper--
I really like your proposed changes to Martial Maneuvers. The original version has too few uses per day and requires too hefty of an action to activate. If the minute expires, would you need to expend another action to activate the skill? I assume yes.
As for Brawler Skills--I would highly recommend a different name, perhaps Brawler Talents, Tricks, etc. "Skills" will confuse people with, well, skills. ;-) Other than the name, I think they should remain. Something else needs to be added to boost the class.
I am very against Brawler Strike. Having access to the DR penetrating Fighter feats, it's just unnecessary and doesn't fit flavor-wise. I'd take that out and grant the unarmed damage to all of the close weapons, as others have suggested. Alternatively, I think it would be good to axe Brawler Strike and instead grant a class feature at Level 2 called "Muscle Memory" or something like that. It would grant Combat Expertise and would allow the Brawler to ignore Int requirements on combat feats. Done and done.
Another minor thing--what about buckler proficiency? Seems pretty themey if a brawler wants to go the shield bash route, you know?
My concern is that when playing a normal adventure, the brawler is not going to have much ability to contribute when the party is not actively fighting. This will become more pronounced as they increase in levels and the skill system is increasingly marginalized by magic and class features.
Well... It is a Fighter-based class, after all...
I am very against Brawler Strike. Having access to the DR penetrating Fighter feats, it's just unnecessary and doesn't fit flavor-wise. I'd take that out and grant the unarmed damage to all of the close weapons, as others have suggested.
Those feats come too late to matter, though. By then, Brawlers will already have faced lots of enemies with DR.
A +3 AoMF is extremely expensive., so unarmed Brawlers need a way to deal with DR before they are able to afford a 36000gp item!
And to be honest, I disagree with the assertion that it's not a fitting ability. Any warrior who focuses on unarmed combat and lives in a fantasy world would naturally learn how to deal with creatures with special defenses.
I dunno, I still think "Half unarmed progression, can use it with Unarmed Weapons" is a better, more flavorful way to go.
Edit: Ninja'd by Rynjin. Consider this an in-depth 'me too.'
We need to recognize that the brawler, while a close combatant who can fight unarmed, isn't the monk.
Frankly, the brawler just plain doesn't need the ability to have his fists count as a special material. That is a very spiritual twist, and an excellent monk ability. It doesn't fit the theme of the brawler. Just let him do some additional damage with close weapons and he can enchant those.
Alternately, I really like the idea of giving the brawler partial DR penetrating abilities. It accomplishes the same purpose with a non-mystical solution. It also gives players another choice between the brawler and the monk. Do they want to penetrate all of a DR type once they reach the right level or have a partial penetration to DR all the time?
If you want Brawler Strike, put it on whatever archetype that's going for "Brawler who wants to be a Monk." I'm sure there's going to be an archetype for a purely bare-handed fighter. At least I hope there will, because that'll probably be the one I want to play!
I don't see the point of making an unarmed combatant that has to be armed most of the time just so he can actually deal some damage. I don't want unarmed Brawlers to be a trap option like unarmed Monk used to be.
At the very least, the ability to count as Silver and Cold Iron is a very real necessity. Those DRs are very common, being unable to fight effectively against creatures with one of them means unarmed Brawlers will used weapons more often than not.
Isn't being an full BAB unarmed combatant one of the main points of this class? Unarmed combat will probably not be the most effective Brawler build, and I don't have a problem with that, but it should still be a viable and effective build before the point where characters can afford a 36000gp item.
I don't see the point of making an unarmed combatant that has to be armed most of the time just so he can actually deal some damage. I don't want unarmed Brawlers to be a trap option like unarmed Monk used to be.
At the very least, the ability to count as Silver and Cold Iron is a very real necessity. Those DRs are very common, being unable to fight effectively against creatures with one of them means unarmed Brawlers will used weapons more often than not.
Isn't being an full BAB unarmed combatant one of the main points of this class? Unarmed combat will probably not be the most effective Brawler build, and I don't have a problem with that, but it should still be a viable and effective build before the point where characters can afford a 36000gp item.
"Unarmed", in a sense.
He's supposed to be the Brawler. He brawls.
Something about brawling speaks to me of Cestus and Brass Knuckles, as well as fists.
I'd like to see the weapons be made viable.
Are you including non-fighter classes such as monks, barbarians, rogues, paladins, and rangers in the martials, or are you limiting it to only fighters? Pretty much all the other non-casters or 4 level casters have more non-combat capability than the brawler.
Edit: My concern is that when playing a normal adventure, the brawler is not going to have much ability to contribute when the party is not actively fighting. This will become more pronounced as they increase in levels and the skill system is increasingly marginalized by magic and class features.
Actually I was including them. The Barbarian, Gunslinger, and Monk have the same skill points as the Brawler does, so they are equal in skills
As you can see they all have pretty similar skill lists, so from a Skill standpoint, they all have about equal out of combat utility. As for class abilities, the Monk is the best 'out of combat' person, as many of his class abilities don't directly correlate with killing people.
The other three are almost all focused on killing people, while, I think, the Brawler has the most out of combat function out of the three.
I should mention, I really don't subscribe to the thought process that magic completely negates all skill usage at high levels.
If you can't find out of combat possibilities using 4 + Int skills, then it seems to me you need to work on using your imagination to get things done.
"Unarmed", in a sense.
He's supposed to be the Brawler. He brawls.
Yup, and one iconic style of brawling is unarmed. Besides, we need more unarmed character options.
Something about brawling speaks to me of Cestus and Brass Knuckles, as well as fists.
I'd like to see the weapons be made viable.
Me too (actually I think they are viable already, but scaling damage dice would be nice). I just don't want to see unarmed combat crippled by a very common defensive ability. I like the idea of Brawlers getting lower damage dice progression but being able to apply it to other weapons.
However, this doesn't change the fact that unarmed combatants need a way to fight enemies with DR. Hopefully one that doesn't involve giving up their main combat style 'til 11th level or so, when they can finally afford a +3 AoMF (maybe).
Apparently they will be proficiant with sheilds as weapons only but unable to use them as sheilds, which is possibly the silliest idea ive ever heard of.
Unarmed combat will be weaker than weapon combat until Paizo publishes either AMF or ANA on another item slot where it doesn't conflict with anything else important either.
Actually, I think the main problem is that an AoMF costs twice as much as an equivalent weapon. But, yeah, occupying an item slot also hurts a lot.
And I don't see how adding scaling damage dice to weapons make unarmed combatants more useful against creatures with DR.
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I dunno, I still think "Half unarmed progression, can use it with Unarmed Weapons" is a better, more flavorful way to go.
I still say nerfing unarmed progression with or without weapons is unnecessary. Still think swapping brawlers strike for weapon training and allowing unarmed strike damage with trained weapons is the most elegant solution. If a player chooses to go straight unarmed, they can still take unarmed as their first level of weapon training and get a ccumulative +4 to their attack and damage. If a player wants to use weapons they can get up to 4 melee weapons with full unarmed damage.
Unarmed combat will be weaker than weapon combat until Paizo publishes either AMF or ANA on another item slot where it doesn't conflict with anything else important either.Actually, I think the main problem is that an AoMF costs twice as much as an equivalent weapon. But, yeah, occupying an item slot also hurts a lot.
And I don't see how adding scaling damage dice to weapons make unarmed combatants more useful against creatures with DR.
the idea is brawler mcpunchface can beat lycanthropes with silver brass knuckles effectivly or a similer ability.