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Quoting Monstrous Physique:
"When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the monstrous humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.
1) Since claws, bites, slams (etc) aren't on the list, my presumption is that the PC will not get them in the new form even if they're in a Paizo-product picture of the creature. I.e., not any more than they get the monster's umpittyump hit-dice, breath attacks, pounce, and so on unless so indicated.
2) What is RAW for what happens to the equipment, apparel, and weapons of a person in a "form"? (It doesn't say in the druid section or in Beast Shape.)
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From the polymorph section
"Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses."
From further down.
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form."
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Vouivre, then, needs to be fixed; its a size-large wyvernlike lizard with a humanoid body for a tail, and is listed as a monstrous-humanoid.
-- For the 700gp cost of a scroll of Monstrous Physique II, a player can pick up two 3d6 claws, two 2d6 wings, a 1d8 bite, a 1d8 gore, get flight and swim speeds, and use his manufactured weapons with the humanoid tail, for seven minutes.
...by way of comparison, a potion of Haste costs 750 and grants one extra attack for seven rounds.
That monster is broke (unless the humanoid tail can't use the PC's manufactured weapons, or there's a rule forbearing conversion into a form with greater hit-dice than the character).
Yeah, I don't see that thing as humanoid, monstrous or otherwise.
There is no gore attack in the creatures attack section.
Yes, the Vouivre is a powerful form to take. On the counter point, its a horrid monstrous creature and anyone turning into one to fight is going to be looked at with suspicion at best. Especially since it is a "half human" monster, it would be very easy to assume the "monster" is real and can just "change" into a regular person. Also, a bit of a nitpick: the "humanoid tail" isn't actually a tail at all. Its a torso, the vouivre can explicitly breath from either head, so that torso can certainly wield weapons (although I would give it the undersized weapon quality similar to a centaur).
Strong yes, but not broken. The real devil is in the details: Monstrous Physique II is a 4th level Sorc/Wiz spell, so unless you are at least a 7th level wizard, you will be having a difficult time getting ahold of this effect. Since its personal, you can't have a friendly caster just do it for you, instead you would need to UMD of DC 27 for the scroll, and 29 for the requisite ability score if you didn't have an Int of 14. So already we have a signficant skill investment and possibly stat investment. The potion of haste is a poor comparison because it can be used by anyone, and the potion actually nerfs the spell by restricting it to one target. Conversely, 3 charges from a wand of haste costs 675, and would grant up to 5 people 1 extra attack, +1 ac, +1 reflex, and +30 to all speeds. Granted, the time might be short, but I would wager you would use the three charges in a series of fights about as long as what you would with the Mon. Physique spell.
Regarding the natural attacks, keep in mind the wings are secondary attacks, doing 1/2 str and taking a -5 penalty to hit. Also, there is no gore attack listed for the vouivre, not sure where that's coming from. It would get the swim speed, but the fly speed is capped at poor maneuverability, as the spell only lists the upper limit of mimicry; abilities below those limits do not raise to meet them. You would get the grab ability on the bite, and as mentioned, the humanoid torso could wield weapons, but if it does so, all natural attacks shift to secondaries, and thus take the -5 to hit and 1/2 str to damage restriction. Also, don't forget these natural attacks don't bypass any damage reduction unless the character is wearing an amulet of mighty fists.
So, a 7th level wizard turning into one of these is impressive, but ultimately not very threatening due to base attack and physical stats. A more physically oriented character who can make use of it could be relatively dangerous, but with only 3 primaries and a pair of secondaries, I'd honestly not be that worried. A druid or a summoner can easily bring a more dangerous beast to the field. And again, all of this is before the in-world concern of turning into a wretched and, due to the CR spectrum interaction with the Legend Lore spell, literally legendary monster known for deception and eating humanoids.
tldr: not as bad as you think, don't worry about it.
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, that monster isnt even that great, only 5 natural attacks and no pounce?
I'll stick to the deathsnatcher's 6 primary attacks with pounce.
Or if I didnt need pounce, the Euryale's specifically 2h weapon wielding hands and 6 snake bite reach attacks sounds pretty useful.
(Both forms able to assumed with monstrous physique 1, which is awesome, though I think pounce is still MP2 exclusive. Both of these lovely beasties can be found in bestiary 6, for those interested.)
- For the 700gp cost of a scroll of Monstrous Physique II, a player can pick up two 3d6 claws, two 2d6 wings, a 1d8 bite, a 1d8 gore...
...by way of comparison, a potion of Haste costs 750 and grants one extra attack for seven rounds.
The link says 1 3d6 bite, 2 2d6 claws, 2 1d8 wings.
A scroll of Haste costs 375gp and grants one extra attack and +1AC and +1 to hit and +30 feet of movement for the entire party. That seems a better comparison, since we're talking about someone who can use scrolls.
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This whole thing comes from this thread. The gore attack is from a helm of the mammoth lord, not something the vouivre has.
Also, because it wasn't stated above, also from the polymorph section:When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body...If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
So monstrous physique, because it doesn't turn you into a form of one of those creature types, will resize your equipment to match your new size.
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What he ^^^ said.
Monstrous Physique II is a 4th level Sorc/Wiz spell, so unless you are at least a 7th level wizard, you will be having a difficult time getting ahold of this effect.
You could also just have one level in a class with it on the list, such as Bloodrager (not even forfeiting BAB) and INT of 14 (most players interested in these tactics would probably opt to purchase the key and keep their INT dumped in point-buy games).
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Lizard folk, skin walkers, pouncing tiger druids with helm of the mammoth lord and a white haired witch dip, beast morph alchemist with animal totem eagle tattoo and helm of the mammoth lord, or Four armed gargoyle with the eagle totem tattoo are all builds with crazy high attacks.
Natural attacks are highly optimizable but come with draw backs. Worse against dr being the biggest and much more expensive to enchant.
This shape is good especially for the setup of the dpr contest, but others offer just as much and actually fair far better in other sinarios.
Giant Octopus.
Giant Octopus.
The rogue's final form!
Spells like Sky Swim exist for land-locked cephalopods.
Besides, if there was logic involved then being polymorphed into an octopus would give you the ability to breathe water. It doesn't.
Giant Octopus.That only works when dumb GMs don't realize that skeletonless cephlopods on land would be stunned, blind, and suffocating.
Stunned because the form is "skeletonless"?
A: I can't see that in the rules, does that mean you're stunned every time you grow wings because your skeleton changes?B: Octopi are also able to move about quite freely on land, theyre often known for escaping tanks in their aquariums.
Blind?
They have eyes and even low-light vision (which you gain), and that doesnt magically stop working on land.
Suffocating?
Isn't baleful polymorph the only polymorph spell that actually robs you of your ability to survive in your normal environment because its the only one thats written as if for old 3.5 rules? The polymorph magic section pretty clearly outlines exactly what you normally lose when assuming a new shape by casting, this was left out, almost certainly for this reason.
The beast shape spells dont actually turn you into the animal after all, they merely let you assume the shape and grant you the abilities and restrictions listed in the polymorph magic rules.
Spells like Sky Swim exist for land-locked cephalopods.
Besides, if there was logic involved then being polymorphed into an octopus would give you the ability to breathe water. It doesn't.
Polymorph section has specific rules for this at least: "If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."
Reiterating. The polymorph section says you retain the ability to breath air.
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If you polymorph into a tiger and jump into a lake and swim to the bottom and stay there...you will drown.
If you turn into a fish and jump onto the shore and stay there, you will likewise suffocate.
"If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."
Because that particular form -- the thing you turned into -- can *normally* do that. That does not imply that every creature is capable of doing what you normally do.
All creature templates have the following structure:
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee 2 hooves –2 (1d4+1)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
This animal has a move of 50 on land, the default. If you Beast Shape into a horse, you'll get to run faster, but you won't be able to fly.
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor)
Melee bite +25 (2d8+15), 2 claws +25 (2d6+10), 2 wings +23 (1d8+5), tail slap +23 (2d6+15)
This dragon can fly through the air five times faster than it can move on the ground, but it doesn't burrow or swim.
OFFENSE
Speed swim 60 ft., jet 260 ft.
Melee bite +14 (2d6+7), 2 arms +14 (1d6+7), tentacles +12 (4d6+3/19-20 plus grab)
This aquatic animal has only underwater speeds listed. It doesn't get to move on land any more than it gets to fly through the air or burrow in the dirt.
Cephalopods cannot normally breathe air, and have a physiology reliant upon a buoyant environment. Without a skeleton to support their suddenly crushing weight on land, they could do little more than collapse into a heap and limply crawl.
It'd be like if you were suddenly transported to a high-gravity planet where you weighed 2,000lbs.
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Sir Thugsalot seems to just be focusing only on what the mundane animal can do, not what a humanoid that magically assumes the appearance and a small number of abilities of the animal can do, neither is he acknowledging how the polymorph rules actually work.
Just because the spells "make you appear to be the creature"* (giving you a +10 disguise check), "they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature"*, nor do they alter your type or subtype (which normally determine what you can breathe) or remove a humanoid's ability to breathe normally. They simply allow you to imitate the creature's form and gain the specific attacks/abilities listed in the polymorph rules and the spell descriptions.
Thugsalot is also disregarding the octopus example, which has a clearly listed 20ft land movement speed, in order to seek out an example of a completely different creature which does not, despite the fact that the types of movement the imitated mundane creature has actually has no effect on the disguised caster's ability to breathe air normally. (They would only modify the caster's movement accordingly.)
If the polymorph spells actually completely changed you into the creatures; modifying your types/subtypes, or even mentioned that you lost your ability to breathe, then his argument might make sense. As it stands his opinion seems to be based purely on a misconception of what the spells actually do.
More importantly Sirthug, the polymorph rules say what you *lose*
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features..."
Ability to breathe air, if you are natively an air breather, is not one of them.
Speed 50 ft.
Melee 2 hooves –2 (1d4+1)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft. This animal has a move of 50 on land, the default. If you Beast Shape into a horse, you'll get to run faster, but you won't be able to fly.
Thanks for proving the point for me.
No, you don't necessarily get to move faster. You get only exactly what the spell gives you.
Beast Shape II:This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip.
Move 50 not there. You don't get it.
Losing your type; or your normal way of breathing: Not there. You don't lose it.
Becoming a giant, 8 tentacle air breathing Giant Octopus: Perfectly legal.
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Jumping back a little way...
Vouivre?
*dismissive wave*
Please. The only true form for MP II is Yig. 6d10 bite, 2 4d8 claws, and a 4d10 tail slap totally make up for the fact you don't get his poison until MP III and his rend until MP IV.
Or just go with your Plant Shape I, and take the form of a green man. 8 attacks is perfectly balanced, after all.
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features..."
Ability to breathe air, if you are natively an air breather, is not one of them.
While this is true and nothing specifically says you can lose the ability to breath air, that quote continues:
"...that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
The GM might legitimately decide that breathing air is an ability that depends on your form and is lost when you become a creature with gills.
Speed 50 ft.
Melee 2 hooves –2 (1d4+1)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft. This animal has a move of 50 on land, the default. If you Beast Shape into a horse, you'll get to run faster, but you won't be able to fly.Thanks for proving the point for me.
No, you don't necessarily get to move faster. You get only exactly what the spell gives you.
Beast Shape II:This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip.
Move 50 not there. You don't get it.
Losing your type; or your normal way of breathing: Not there. You don't lose it.
Becoming a giant, 8 tentacle air breathing Giant Octopus: Perfectly legal.
Not all of the rules are in one place. You most certainly do gain the base speed of the form you assume.
Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume.
The GM might legitimately decide that breathing air is an ability that depends on your form and is lost when you become a creature with gills.
While a lot of things may be up to the GM, I doubt the ability to breathe would be one of those things. The elemental body spells for example, allow you to assume the form of an elemental (in the same way beast shape does for animals) without any extra wording to allow you to breathe and "Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep." Given that you do not gain the elemental typing that this ability is tied to, nor do you gain this ability from the polymorph rules, you would still have to breathe to survive but (by your GM ruling) you would have no anatomy to do so. Resulting in death.
A GM setting the principle of robbing you of your ability to breathe air because of a polymorph form/disguise is effectively making all elemental body spells (and a few other polymorph spells) almost completely useless.
To reiterate, the polymorph rules do a pretty good job explaining the important things that change when disguising yourself as something else, and normal breathing is not one of them.
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For Monstrous Physique, at least, if the creature has the aquatic subtype, you gain the amphibious subtype as well, and therefore explicitly can breathe air.
If the form you assume has the aquatic subtype, you gain the aquatic and amphibious subtypes.
Beast Shape doesn't have that text, but since as noted losing the ability to breathe isn't in the polymorph rules, I wouldn't make that happen as a GM. An octopus doesn't have a land speed, though, so couldn't move around. I'm sure a wildcatting druid can come up with other ways to move, though. Potions of Fly at the very least.
An octopus doesn't have a land speed, though, so couldn't move around. I'm sure a wildcatting druid can come up with other ways to move, though. Potions of Fly at the very least.
Actually an octopus (both regular and giant) does have a land speed of 20.
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An octopus doesn't have a land speed, though, so couldn't move around. I'm sure a wildcatting druid can come up with other ways to move, though. Potions of Fly at the very least.Actually an octopus (both regular and giant) does have a land speed of 20.
Oh, well there you go. Then they can move at 20. I thought someone upthread said they only had a swim speed.
Also, I just noticed that my phone apparently changed wildshaping to wildcatting, which, to be honest, isn't really wrong.