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Morbid Eels wrote:

Wonderstell wrote:

I asked the same question some time ago, trying to circumvent the dexterity requirement of Two-Weapon Defense, which I only needed because it was a feat tax.

I'd say that RAW, it works. But it's obviously not meant to be done.

So yeah. Feat taxes sucks, especially when they mess up your ability scores.

Two Weapon Defense clearly has a 15 Dexterity Requirement listed in its prerequisites, the example i've given (Archon Style) has no stat requirement. I'm not seeing how TWD would work in RAW or is in any way the same as this scenario.

TWD is a feat tax for the Arm Bind weapon trick, so I had the same scenario.

I'm sorry about that then, I didnt find that when trying to figure out what you were referring to with the TWD example. Overlooked due to specific weapon tricks not showing up in the feats section on nethys search for two-weapon defense.

While I understand where you're coming from, and how one could interpret the Prerequisites text, blahpers has given you the 'right' way to read it.

Would that there were rules sources to dismiss the CRB RAW and support another interpretation then I would happily rule it that way. (and I can see why some people would anyway, for simplicity.)

May I ask why you created this thread if you had already decided on the answer to your question?

Well I saw the way it clearly worked by RAW, and couldn't find anything to support the contrary. It seemed interesting and (as ive mentioned multiple times) I wanted to know if there were any other official sources (other books, errata or FAQ) which modified the CRB text. These rules forums were a good place to ask about errata, FAQs and dev comments which would otherwise elude me.

That's why im specifically asking for rules quotes and links, not peoples advice/opinions of what they "would rule" or what they think it should be, because I like my rulings to come from RAW and intent, rather than community conceptions. If there is a RAW-founded reason why a player should/shouldn't be denied class features/feats in certain situations then that's how i'll always play it, otherwise i'll use my own judgement.

I asked the same question some time ago, trying to circumvent the dexterity requirement of Two-Weapon Defense, which I only needed because it was a feat tax.

I'd say that RAW, it works. But it's obviously not meant to be done.

So yeah. Feat taxes sucks, especially when they mess up your ability scores.

Two Weapon Defense clearly has a 15 Dexterity Requirement listed in its prerequisites, the example i've given (Archon Style) has no stat requirement. I'm not seeing how TWD would work in RAW or is in any way the same as this scenario.

But you need to have access to Combat Expertise in order to use Archon Style.

Wrong. It says you need to have the feat, and we know it means the feat because further in the rules its specifies "Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat." - It does not say you need "access to the use of a feat", just that you have the feat itself. Which as per "but he does not lose the feat itself." you still have, meaning you still meet the prerequisite of "having the feat". If that feat (that you're explicitly told you still have) is the only prerequisite for the second feat you should benefit from the second feat without issue.

Forget for a moment that Combat Expertise grants an ability that you can "use", as opposed to something like Iron Will which is always on.

The use of iron will is to grant +2 Will. The use of combat expertise is to give you a defensive option. Uses are uses, prerequisites are prerequisites.

Only the feat itself is listed in the prerequisites. The feat section details that it means the feat itself, as mentioned above. There is no mention of the usability of the feat being a factor, merely that you have the feat.
Access to the use of a feat you have =/= The feat itself.

With that in mind, I assume because you have not quoted or linked anything that goes against this CRB RAW that there is no rewritten prerequisites sections, errata or FAQs to change it?

You cant use the feat so it no longer counts as available for other feats until you do.

Combat Expertise doesn't need to be used for archon style to have an effect.

If it had to be used to qualify as being a feat that would mean you would have to be using it any time you wanted to use a style feat.

The rules only say that you need to have the combat expertise feat to use the style feats (check) and that the combat expertise feat isnt lost if you dont meet it's prerequisites (check).

That means that you have the combat expertise feat but cant use its effect, it does not prevent you from using style feats whose only requirement is that you have the feat.

The only thing we can quote is the work you've already done.

Which does not support the idea you lose access to style feats when not using combat expertise.

SOME feats have int 13 as a prerequisite alongside combat expertise and would be lost when int was lowered, these however, do not.

Prerequisites wrote:

Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself.

You answered it yourself, I've bolded the appropriate part. The feats have Combat Expertise as a requirement, and they no longer have access to Combat Expertise.

But they dont need to be able to use combat expertise, that's what i'm saying. The rules clearly say they dont lose the feat, and its the feat that's required to meet the prerequisites of Archon style etc. (Just as you bolded for me)

To implant the situation into the RAW:

"A character can't use <combat expertise> if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the <combat expertise> feat itself."

"Your character must have the <combat expertise> feat in order to select or use <Archon Style>"

The RAW clearly dictates that they keep the combat expertise feat and therefore meet the prerequisites of (and can keep using) the style feats.

I'm asking if there's any other rules that prevent this from being the case.

If you loose access to a prerequisite, you loose access to all other abilities that rely on that prerequisite.

The player will not have access to Archon Style or Swordplay Style until they get a Restoration spell, or similar healing.

Please quote/link source if there is one?

Im not disputing them not being able to use combat expertise, but the other two feats dont have intelligence as a prerequisite - I cant find where it says you actually lose access to related feats that you still meet all the prerequisites for. The prerequisite of each style feat is having the combat expertise feat, not being able to use it.

Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself.

Bolded (quoted from the prerequisites section of the CRB which I linked in my original post) seems to contradict what you are saying. I'm just here to establish if theres any specific rules (or errata/FAQ) that overrule what is printed here. If there is anything to support what you say please quote/link it, it would help me out a lot.

This happened at my table, and although I think I found the answer in the top answer of THIS QUESTION and THIS SECTION of the CRB I thought it wise to check here in case there was a more specific/accurate ruling I could be pointed to.

A character has:

(They had 13 intelligence, until it got permanently reduced by a creature with intelligence drain, meaning they no longer qualify for combat expertise, so they can't use it - But they still have the combat expertise feat, meaning they still meet the listed prerequisites of both style feats.)

Is there anything more specific by RAW or errata/faq that prevents the character in question from continuing to use the style feats, despite not being able to use combat expertise?

My Polearm Master fighter is painfully slow, due to having low dexterity (13) and needing to wear full plate to keep reasonable AC. Without wearing lighter armor, what are some cost efficient items that can increase my fighter's movement speed?

O.O

A net +4 bonus to your saves above the base saves (+9/4/4) for a 14th level fighter!

A not so small miracle you're still intact and functioning with those saves at 14th level.

Is the rest of the party in the same shape with respect to their saves?

Mostly, but they attract a lot less attention than me and have high base will saves due to classes, but they cant pass any fortitude saves.

Thank you for the suggestions, I dont know the GM will be happy for me to drop my archetype, or even take advanced training because its not hardback. But they have acknowledged my saves are too low, so maybe.

I think I have enough to go on now.

I say it works by RAW, it says the Kumade can be used as a grappling hook and hook fighter adds to what a grappling hook can do.

Not sure why you would want to instead of just using a normal reach weapon that you wouldn't have to invest feats into though.

A standard action spell, modified with quicken spell is exactly the same. Spell kenning it is going to take a round, it doesn't care if the spell would be faster if it was cast a different way.

Well there is the fact that spontaneous casters apply metamagic to spells as they cast them, or rather, "they can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them". So it doesnt make a difference what the spell was originally, provided it qualified at that point in the spell casting. What would prohibit quicken is if the "always" part of spell kenning meant "always from this point onwards" or just that its always changed to 1 round at that stage in the spell casting process.

Thanks for the answers, just needed to know how it works.

I'm starting at a high level and am able to use my gold to buy combined magic items for my starting equipment. How many items can I combine in this way, is it only two, or can I combine more? How much would the final item be if i can and did want to combine more?

Example:
Belt A costs 20000gp
Belt B costs 10000gp
Belt C costs 8000gp
Belt D costs 8000gp

In this example, how many of the items effects can I combine into one item, and how much would the finished item be?

When I think of vampire I think of charisma.
1: Be a Human, pump Charisma.
2: Noble Scion feat (cha to initiative)
3: Lunar Oracle (to shapechange into animals, charisma to AC and reflex, wolf companion, plenty of thematic abilities)
4: Choose Vamprism as the oracle curse (Do I need to say why?)
5: Focus on enchantment spells (not only are they thematic for a classic vampire, theyre also good)
6: Use your charisma towards eldritch heritage of your choice if you feel you need it.

If at some point you become a full vampire, you already have high charisma to base HP on.

There is any number of things you could tag on to this to get it closer to your idea of a vampire, but its a solid start.

What about slightly larger tribal creatures, such as orcs, are there any instances of similar situations for them?

i just started and have a level 1 cleric. I cannot for the life of me find where the domain spells are and how to put them in the domain slot (i only have one so far)

If going by core rulebook domains, they are listed in the cleric section of the book, starting on page 41.

Each day when preparing spells you can prepare one domain spell from each spell level you can cast as a bonus spell, choosing between the spells offered by your two domains. On the spells per day table the bonus spell is represented as the "+1" in each column. You dont need to do anything special to "put them in the domain slot" other than choosing it as a spell when preparing your spells.

What domains did you choose?

Are there any clearly urban cities in pathfinder lore in which tribal cultures exist and can practice their "barbaric" religions and traditions, either openly or underground?

Reasons for the contrast such as the city being occupied by orcs, or tribal goblin communities living in a sprawling chaotic city that isnt policed in certain areas. (similar, albeit lesser in scale, to ravnica if youre familiar with mtg)

As I said in the last post, im trying to avoid conventional multiclassing but i may be able to convince the gm to allow me to retrain feats and pursue vmc, which until Badbird mentioned cleric domains potentially helping I had not thought of.

If you have decent charisma you can swap many will saves to charisma with a trait through Extra Traits, but I'm guessing this is a stat-dumped character if we're talking low WIS.

Yes, charisma is a 7, and intelligence was only a 10. I had fantastic strength, middling dexterity and con though.

The Armed Bravery Advanced Weapon Training feature is useful, but since Polearm Master gives up Weapon Training it's not so functional. If your GM allows it, you could count your Polearm Training as Weapon Training for getting the Advanced Weapon Training feat and maybe wearing Gloves of Dueling.

They said no, unfortunately.

I know you don't want to multiclass, but for what it's worth, one level of Cleric can potentially grant both a major bonus to Will save and the ability to reroll failed will saves (Honor subdomain). Multiclassing is pretty painless on a Fighter, and combined with Iron Will you could get pretty close to 'shrugging off' enchantment attacks.

I may be able to convince them to let me retrain some feats to use variant multiclassing instead, that could give me access to domains or other things that might help, any good ideas other than cleric and the honor subdomain?

*When you took the archetype you gave up Weapon Training, by far the most powerful and versatile of the fighter's abilities. Even without Advanced Weapon Training feats, you still screwed yourself by giving up your ability to benefit from gloves of dueling.

I'd noticed...

My fighter is in +3 fullplate with a +3 flaming weapon already, which i didnt mention because they dont help against spells, but that does mean I dont need to factor in weapon cost and could possibly trade-in the armor for a bit more cash if I need to.

I'll suggest the Mind Buttressing Armor to my GM but as its not from a hardback they might not let me get one.

Out of those concealment-related items what would you recommend most for my fighter? I'm not very familiar with the activated items.

......How much money do you have to work with, personally?

I think we got 320k-400k gold, with some of its value as gems etc. It hasnt all been counted yet but that is the rough number out GM gave us. So splitting that between 4 people I guess I have between 80k and 100k to spend.

So why don't you have a cloak of resistance? There should be plenty of them around being used by the bad guys? Unless you happen to be fighting nothing but non-humanoid monsters?

Its mostly been a charitable monster hunt until we ambushed these pirates. (Which was the original quest before we got sidetracked by all the poor villagers in need of saving, and a spooky underwater cave system. Our xp gain has been very fast this game and I think our GM realized how under-geared we all are so made the pirates strangely wealthy to compensate.)

Any other priorities for my shopping list?

What are the best ways for my Polearm Master fighter to protect himself against spells? (without multi-classing please)

He just seems to fail against every spell thrown at him, even fortitude-based ones, which are by far the best saves he's got. He's always expected to be in the front line so he gets a lot of attention from spellcasters and spends most of the time debilitated or unconscious. How can I minimize the effects of spells cast against him, both damaging and debilitating? I want to get him to the point where he can fairly reliably shrug off any magic that comes his way, though I understand that might be a stretch.

His Saves, using rolled ability scores:
Fortitude: 13 (14 con + belt of physical might +4)
Reflex: 5 (13 Dex)
Will: 3 (9 Wis)
Currently 14th level, with no helpful magic items except the belt, but we've just liberated a lot of gold from pirates and we're probably just one session away from gaining another feat.

No. Because the ability is a full round action at minimum, regardless of actual time.

So a swift spell is a full round. Metamagic would make the spell swift, but the ability mdked it a full round to cast.

Quicken spell doesn't work.

So the ability that gives access to the spell and increases the casting time takes precedence over metamagic that modifies spells as they are cast spontaneously?

Yes, I just dont know if...

"At 5th level, a skald is learned in the magic of other spellcasters, and can use his own magic to duplicate those classes’ spells. Once per day, a skald can cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list as if it were one of his skald spells known, expending a skald spell slot of the same spell level to cast the desired spell. Casting a spell with spell kenning always has a minimum casting time of 1 full round, regardless of the casting time of the spell."

...the bolded word meant the spells cast time always becomes a full round regardless of the original cast time (in which case it can be modified by quicken) or if it meant that the cast time becomes 1 full round and cannot ever be changed by metamagic like quicken spell...

Can you quicken a spell gained from spell kenning?

Spell Kenning makes any spell gained by using the ability have a casting time of 1 full round regardless of its normal casting time, whereas quicken spell can make any spell with a cast time of 1 full round or less a swift action instead... But is the change to a casting time of 1 full round permanent and unchangeable or can the spell be modified as you cast it using the metamagic feat like you can other spells?

6: So if it functions as a metamagic feat to increase spell slot level (which i'm still not 100% if it actually does), does it work with abilities like magical lineage which reduce metamagic level, despite not being a metamagic feat?

7: What about the arcane bloodline arcana? (+1 to DCs for metamagic feat modified spells)

8: What about abilities like the Harrower's Harrow Casting? ("A spell may not be affected by both Harrow casting and a metamagic feat.")

9: Did we ever establish if/how it works with Spell Perfection's prerequisites and effects if it functions as a metamgic feat despite not being a metamagic feat?

Reading it as functioning with metamagic feat rules instead of just reading it as "similarly to the intensify spell feat" opens up a real can of worms regarding questions... Are we sure the ability is meant to function as the feat with the metamagic properties inherent to metamagic feats, including cast time adjustments, spell slot level and possible interactions with everything else that references metamagic feats?

And if you just want to use a higher level slot for a lower-level spell, you can do it without using any metamagic at all.

As per the rules quote :)

You can fill spell slots with lower level spells without metamagic.

a spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell.

Do note that neither this nor other metamagic feats raise the spells actual level, just the level of the spell slot it occupies. (The exception being heighten spell)

That being said, at a quick glance I dont see anything preventing you from applying intensify spell to a spell that gains no benefit from it.

How does this sound:

1: You gain 2 "natural” chain attacks as an extra when gaining the dancing chains ability. "You gain the kyton’s dancing chains ability... ...This grants you two chain attacks”. (This also accounts for the fact that the basic chain attacks and the dancing chain are listed separately in the kyton entry)

2: As a standard action, you can briefly animate up to 2 chains. In addition, you can increase these chains’ length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs (allowing them to attack as spiked chains) These chains can immediately make an attack action or full attack action "as effectively as you can" using your BAB and bonuses. The chains threaten around them during your turn, just as you do, but become inanimate after your turn.

The kyton stat block doesn't seem to have any such ability to attack outside of their chain reach

"A kyton can control up to four chains within 20 feet as a standard action, making the chains dance or move as it wishes. In addition, a kyton can increase these chains’ length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs. These chains attack as effectively as the kyton itself."

Regardless, you only threaten squares that you can make a melee attack into.

If the dancing chains ability attacks are made by you: You would threaten the squares with melee attacks from the dancing chains in the space.

There are no attack stats (except for the chain attacks) anywhere in the bestiary entry. In addition the 'This grants you two chain attacks' language in Nightmare Chains strongly implies that the kyton chain attacks are gained from the dancing chains ability, and the 'attacks as effectively as the kyton itself' Dancing Chains ability is a reference to the natural attacks in the Kyton statblock.

Nothing is giving the supposed chain creature a space, a reach, a speed AC, HP, Saves or any other stats make them a creature. If that was happening, I'd expect to see something along the line of 'as animated object.'

The two chain attacks work just like other natural attacks, more similar to a tentacle than a claw as they wouldn't occupy a hand. If you also attack with a manufactured weapon, they chains will be secondary weapons and take the -5.

Theres nothing stating that the dancing chain attacks are natural attacks, and although the basic chain attacks appear like natural attacks in the kyton stat block, it doesnt say they are or that either are combinable with other attacks in the same way as natural attacks... Also, the "dancing chains" being listed separately from the basic chain attacks as a "special attack" in the entry implies that they or some aspects of them are not the same as the normal chain attacks.

It appears to me that it is a standard action to gain control of chains, after witch that control persists until it is broken or you end it (perhaps by controlling different chains).

Controlled chains largely function as if they were primary natural weapons, and your two chain will get attack bonuses and use abilities much as you would if you had a claw attacks. The 'chain attack' you get would function just like the Kyton chain attack i.e. 10 reach etc.

Controlled chains that aren't on your person can 'dance and move' but they don't have any sort of attack on their own and they don't take up space.

Basically, if you treat it as 2 natural attacks with a 10' reach and mostly ignore the rest of the ability as fluff it will probably work out better for you.

Dancing Chains (which you gain) says "A kyton can control up to four chains within 20 feet as a standard action, making the chains dance or move as it wishes. In addition, a kyton can increase these chains’ length by up to 15 feet and cause them to sprout razor-edged barbs. These chains attack as effectively as the kyton itself. " which seems to imply the chains themselves can make attacks.

That would either mean the chains themselves are treated as creature-like and make their own attacks and/or that your two attacks with the chains could originate from different spaces up to 20ft away. In either case do you or the chains ever threaten from the spaces the chain attacks originate from, making flanking or AoO possible?

Also, if you do treat it like 2 natural attacks, can you use it in conjunction with other natural attacks or weapon attacks? If weapon attacks can also be made, are the chains treated as secondary and take a -5?

Ive been given the go-ahead to get the Nightmare Chains feat for thematic reasons, but I have absolutely no idea how it works.

4: So its essentially a metamagic feat that increases cast time and spell slot level - Is this the closest i'll get to an official ruling on this?

5: If it functions as intensified spell (a metamagic feat), does it function as a intensified spell would for prerequisites and effects such as for the spell perfection feat as well?

That was my issue, it says it functions as, so does that mean it is used in the same way as a metamagic feat, including the casting time and slot increase?

Or does it only function as the "benefit" of the feat, and doesnt follow the metamagic rules?

1: Does the bloodline mutation "blood intensity" increase the spell slot level needed to cast a spell?

2: Does the bloodline mutation "blood intensity" increase the casting time needed to cast a spell?

3: Can I combine a blood intensity spell and quicken spell to cast the spell as a swift action?

Anything quickened is a swift action, unless you've already cast a quickened spell this round.

So despite applying two other metamagic feats to it (which would normally increase the casting time), quickened makes it so the spell remains a swift action?

1: What action is it to cast an empowered and quickened shocking grasp spell as a sorcerer?

2: What action is it to cast a still, empowered and quickened shocking grasp spell as a sorcerer?

If you're a sorcerer and you take the raging blood feat, can you cast sorcerer spells while using the feat?

If no, does raging blood allow you to qualify for the mad magic feat?

Love this archetype as its much more in line with what I expected the base shifter to be, but I have a couple of questions:

1. Do I/Can I still benefit from Lasting Sprinting Form or other forms when I use unfettered wild shape?

2. Does unfettered wild shape count as wild shape for the prerequisites and effects of feats? (I know that normally effects that function identically to named abilities are treated as those abilities thanks to an FAQ, but this ability has quite a few modifications to the druid's wild shape ability. Then again I would assume they didn't intend to prevent this archetype from accessing all of the feats that make wild shape so useful, so I'm really not sure.)

2. If the character had more than two arms with which to wield dueling daggers, would they increase their AC for each extra off-hand dueling dagger?

C) Guarded life activates, converting 10 of his lethal damage into nonlethal, which immediately dissipates because he's immune to it.

Oh right, thanks Mr Wuzzy.

So if he lost immunity to nonlethal shortly after using guarded life (by standing in an antimagic field, for example) then he would be at 0 nonlethal damage?

After finding out that the Guarded Life rage power affects the barbarian's accumulated lethal damage and not just the damage from the attack or effect that reduced him to 0, I have a question based on this scenario:

The level 10 barbarian has 3 hp, then takes 5 lethal damage, taking him to -2.
Guarded life activates, converting 10 of his lethal damage into nonlethal, meaning the barbarian is now at 8 hp, but now has 10 nonlethal and is therefore unconscious anyway.

What happens in this scenario if the Barbarian has found a way to become immune to nonlethal damage?

A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

A) Guarded life activates, converting 10 of his lethal damage into nonlethal, meaning the barbarian is now at 8 hp, but now has 10 nonlethal which he suffers no negative effect from.

B) Guarded life activates, but cannot convert 10 of his lethal damage into nonlethal because of the immunity.

What are some of the best choices of animal companion if I want it to focus on grappling?

Looking through fighter archetypes and I see both the two-handed fighter archetype and the foehammer archetype have the Devastating Blow ability, which as a standard action threatens to critical every time. Since then I have found the wereboar rage power and the order of the warrior "strike true ability". Although the former is only with natural attack (no scythe fun) and the latter is only once per day.

What other classes have the ability to automatically threaten a critical?

Escape route looks nice, provided I can convince an ally to be near. Does Solo tactics work with that?

Acrobatics is my fallback option, though it requires low acp and relatively good dex. Mobility is ok, but not guaranteed, and spring attack isn't usable as a move action.

Expert boarder is interesting, will need some set up though its tempting. Panther style is more feat intensive than mobility for only a -2 penalty to their attack, even if it does punish them for attacking, they still get to attack. Swashbuckler locks me into swashbuckler, but might be something i'll look into.

Any more?

What are some non-equipment, non-spell ways that require only minimal investment and that allows a character to avoid attacks of opportunity when moving through threatened spaces, specifically when using the move action?

So if you receive healing from two sources (in this case the effect of treating deadly wounds and the unlock which functions as a full days rest but triggers from taking the action to treat deadly wounds) then you only gain the higher of the two heals? (But you'd still keep the adding Wis from the original effect even though you're only taking the higher healing effect?) Do any other abilities in the game without "replace" or "instead" wordings function this way?

I think it replaces the healing, I would expect an 'in addition to' clause if it didn't.

Which on the face of it is a downgrade, except normally treat deadly wounds doesn't heal ability damage, which the unlock allows.

Still better off not using the unlock if you just want to heal hp damage until you hit the higher level unlocks.

Interesting stance, so you think it completely replaces all of the healing done and could actually be a downgrade to healing...

The person that thought it replaced it before seemed to think it somehow only partially replaced the effect of treating deadly wounds (but strangely still added wisdom), so its good to know that theres even more opinions on how it functions.

Edit because of your edit:

Edit: resting for a day only heals your level in hp. So A would be 1x plus 1x and B would be only 1x level hp healed.

You need long term care resting for a day to heal 2x level.

Generally effects that trigger when you make a specific action (such as an attack) never replace any aspect of the original attack unless the effect specifically states as much (such abilities have wording such as "instead" or "replaces" used). So is there RAW to support the original effect of treating deadly wounds getting replaced by the skill unlock, or does the skill unlock simply add to the effects of treating deadly wounds?