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If you want to encourage Sword and Board, there are a few changes you can make without trying to screw over two-handers. Some of them help Two Weapon Fighting as a whole, while one of them some are strictly an asset for Shield Users.
1: Two-Weapon Fighting can be done as a Standard Action, pairing a single off-hand attack with a single main-hand attack, each at normal penalties for TWF
2: Eliminate Double Slice from the rules. Off-hands deal the same damage as main hands. (Barring a difference in the weapons themselves)
3: Two Weapon Fighting is a single feat which provides an off-hand attack in conjunction with any primary attack.
4: Shield Bonus applies to Reflex Saves and Touch AC
5: You retain your shield bonus against an opponent you bash with it.
6: Improved Shield Bash not only causes you to retain your Shield Bonus to AC against everybody when bashing, it also causes your Shield Bash to benefit from Weapon Specific Feats applied to the other weapon attacking with it (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, etc etc)
I like some of these TWF options. I'll have to consider them, and return Power Attack to RAW.
I also like the Improved Critical idea. Always thought the Scimitar getting critical threats at 15-20 was a bit obscene, and I think there a way to make it worse. Allowing only +1 to the critical threat I think helps balance that, even when this bonus is stacked from other sources that aren't the same (i.e. Improved Critical + Keen only makes a scimitar with a critical threat range of 16-20).
I really appreciate everyone's input. It helped me streamline my house rules better. Many thanks!
Improved Shield Bash not only causes you to retain your Shield Bonus to AC against everybody when bashing, it also causes your Shield Bash to benefit from Weapon Specific Feats applied to the other weapon attacking with it (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, etc etc)
I really like this.
The Cleaves has angry Bedouins with guns, so if you use this, characters may fire guns, but if they come from a culture that is pre-Renascence, they cannot make them or ammunition.
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If players playing Monks declare that they're going to kick as an attack, and scream "WAAAA-TAAAH!" as they roll to attack, they do as much damage as a greatsword if they hit.
What if they merely plant their feet and stare intensely at their target as they proceed to ramble off a 12 minute monologue? Is that a Will save vs. death?
Houserule: Dispelled permanencied spells are only suppressed for 10 minutes, unless the effect that dispelled then is capable of destroying/depowering a magic item.
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1. Remove "plus" items and incorporate them into leveling, adjusting wealth by level to compensate. To date positive feedback from players.
2. Magic item crafting costs 100% besides wands, potions, scrolls. Can "disenchant" same-slot items and apply their cost to crafting. Intended to fix WBL issue while preserving ability to use feats to get exactly which items the player wants.
3. Re-roll hit points once with minimum based on the die.
4. No use of abilities, spells, etc. from sourcebooks I don't own unless you bring a full copy.
5. Feats banned: Clustered Shots, Antagonize, Leadership, Dazing Spell. All have created trouble in game balance.
6. Raise Dead is an 8 hour ritual costing 500gp per Hit Die. Characters must make a "Resurrection Survival" roll based off 2nd edition or forever be dead; each successive roll is treated as 1 CON lower to a minimum of 40% chance of success at effective CON 3. Explains why indefinite raise dead not feasible.
7. Charm/Hold Person does not work on Giants or trolls. They've always been monsters to me.
The Flatfooted for the first round of combat rule is removed.
Unless the character is surprised/ Caught unaware Flatfooted should never come into play.
What if they merely plant their feet and stare intensely at their target as they proceed to ramble off a 12 minute monologue? Is that a Will save vs. death?
More like save or charge recklessly enraged. :)
1. Remove "plus" items and incorporate them into leveling, adjusting wealth by level to compensate. To date positive feedback from players.
7. Charm/Hold Person does not work on Giants or trolls. They've always been monsters to me.
So if a character gets the mutation Giantism they become immune to all the person spells?
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If I had a crapload of time and energy, I would expand all the 0-9 casting class spell lists into 1-20 lists, matching up with one's class level, and wriggle spells around. For instance, CLW would be a level 1 cleric spell, but a L2 druid spell ... seems more cleric-y than druidy.
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Our player archer was reaching insane levels of damage and gave input he felt the Feat was too easy in combo with Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot. Even a gunslinger has to spend grit to compound all attacks into one big volley to overcome DR. We instead rely on Penetrating Strike.
For the mutation, you assume a form and gain abilities, but you don't cease to be a humanoid subject to charm spells. If born a giant or troll, yes, we require a Charm Monster to get their compliance.
The "plus" removal has worked well. Players get a "flaming sword" which scales in usefulness if the character invests "training points" into better weapon training. The training doesn't make a weapon magical (flaming sword would count as magical +1 due to the flaming quality), so players have to be more keen on overcoming DR. They've also been able to equip Cloaks that do something more than provide a save bonus and save that Belt slot for something unique rather than a stat boost.
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I've begun giving my PCs an attribute point at every even lvl,instead of one every 4.So they alternate between feats and attribute points.
I like the sense of growth it gives to characters and they develop more as individuals over time.
I've severely limited access to items that boost attributes to compensate,but I like the end result more.
They end up with heroes that are actually BETTER,not just better dressed.
I've begun giving my PCs an attribute point at every even lvl,instead of one every 4.So they alternate between feats and attribute points.
I like the sense of growth it gives to characters and they develop more as individuals over time.
I've severely limited access to items that boost attributes to compensate,but I like the end result more.
They end up with heroes that are actually BETTER,not just better dressed.
Me likey.
I've begun giving my PCs an attribute point at every even lvl,instead of one every 4.So they alternate between feats and attribute points.
I like the sense of growth it gives to characters and they develop more as individuals over time.
I've severely limited access to items that boost attributes to compensate,but I like the end result more.
They end up with heroes that are actually BETTER,not just better dressed.
Now I'm thinking of of doing this, and replacing all attribute items with cool custom items.
Ok this is one we cannot make our minds up on...
(we use it one campaign and not the next then use it etc...)
Attack Bonus is Figured using your Dexterity not your Strength
But Strength does add to damage.
Its a personal thing for us...
We are all trained in one form of Martial Arts or another and to us it just seems silly that a really strong guy can negate the really dexterous guys AC bonus. (All other things being equal).
Especially since our training stresses that strength with out speed and Accuracy is wasted power. A fast/dexterous man will strike a big strong man 2 to 3 times for every one time the Strong one connects.
The difference comes in the result of the strike.
The strong man only needs one or two blows to drop someone.
The Quick guy? He (in all likely hood) is going to need 6 or 7 hits to produce the same effect.
EDIT: Personal should really be replaced with Verisimilitude.
You would probably be better off providing boosts to Dex-based martials than bringing the nerfhammer down on Strength ones.
one reason we keep waffling on its use...
Its a personal thing for us...
We are all trained in one form of Martial Arts or another and to us it just seems silly that a really strong guy can negate the really dexterous guys AC bonus. (All other things being equal).
Especially since our training stresses that strength with out speed and Accuracy is wasted power. A fast/dexterous man will strike a big strong man 2 to 3 times for every one time the Strong one connects.
The difference comes in the result of the strike.
The strong man only needs one or two blows to drop someone.
The Quick guy? He (in all likely hood) is going to need 6 or 7 hits to produce the same effect.EDIT: Personal should really be replaced with Verisimilitude.
Don't think of STR as muscles, or strength. All stats in Pathfinder seem to be a combination of several things, and strength is muscles, but it's also whatever you need to fight up close. And DEX, it's general speed, but it's also whatever you need to fight at a distance.
I mean, just because you're really fast and dextrous doesn't mean you can aim well, right? So DEX isn't very realistic, but you still use that, right? Unless you don't.
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There have been many over the years that have changed from edition to edition and even from day today, but the one that stand firm, player or character, is "No one dies on their first night"
Maybe instead, drop Strength and Dex and replace them with something like a composite Physical Aptitude stat.
It'd be a bit of an overloaded stat though.
Though I always saw Strength and Dexterity as not particularly measures of Brute Strength and Agility, but more as Muscle (both brute force and agility/control) and Reflexes (hence why you can dodge attacks better).
Now Dexterity of course increases your manual dexterity (for fine manipulation of things, hence why it governs Sleight of Hand), and increases your flexibility and balance (hence Acrobatics) but for the most part this really works conceptually.
Str 18/Dex 12 is less a bodybuilder and more a martial artist, career soldier, etc. Less bulk, but definitely more power.
Str 12/Dex 18 on the other hand is your gymnast's build. Very little actual muscle, but their flexibility and reflexes are amazing.
Guys its the eternal debate...
(The Flame Wars in the Letters section of early Dragons on that subject were truly epic)
And its best we not go far beyond where we have at this point on the STR/Dex thing.
Like I said its Verisimilitude thing (for us it breaks our Suspension of disbelief. )
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I have to say your SoD is pretty fragile if the Str/Dex divide is what breaks it for you. =p
I have to say your SoD is pretty fragile if the Str/Dex divide is what breaks it for you. =p
Only because of personal experiences (33 years Martial Arts training) does that have any effect on my SoD.
And that not so much that I cannot ignore it.
(Hence why we keep waffling on the use of said House Rule)
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From my experience with swords, I can understand Dexterity being used in place of Strength for attack. You need a lot of coordination to wield a sword (perhaps not all weapons, but a sword--yes). Poise, footing, line of attack--it's all about coordination. A brutal slash may take someone out by chance, but more likely it'll be the well-placed sword thrust. Someone comes charging you relying upon their greater "Strength" will be sorry the moment you up your tempo, feint to the right/left or otherwise create an opening for yourself. (In real life, at least, it only takes one successful "attack" to down a foe.)
Guys its the eternal debate...
(The Flame Wars in the Letters section of early Dragons on that subject were truly epic)
And its best we not go far beyond where we have at this point on the STR/Dex thing.
Like I said its Verisimilitude thing (for us it breaks our Suspension of disbelief. )
Sound like a choice of either STR or DEX might be a good compromise. I think we could make a strong case for this in e name of versimilitude.
Couldn't a case be made that pretty much any stat (save perhaps charisma) could be reasonably used in the name of versimilitude?
Punch Dagger - INT - Knowing where to strike to do the most damage
Katana - WIS - Judging exactly how and when to strike
Halberd - CON - having the endurance to effectively wield it at all
Longsword - STR - being able to apply enough force to penetrate with the edge
Rapier - DEX - being coordinated enough to have the point in the right place at the right time
Seems like a lot of this could come down to weapon specifics and style specifics.
Couldn't a case be made that pretty much any stat (save perhaps charisma) could be reasonably used in the name of versimilitude?
Punch Dagger - INT - Knowing where to strike to do the most damage
Katana - WIS - Judging exactly how and when to strike
Halberd - CON - having the endurance to effectively wield it at all
Longsword - STR - being able to apply enough force to penetrate with the edge
Rapier - DEX - being coordinated enough to have the point in the right place at the right timeSeems like a lot of this could come down to weapon specifics and style specifics.
Remove the specific weapon reference and the arguments are still sound...
Best argument for leaving it be (or creating Feats for special situation/characters) I have ever read.
Sizing up your opponent (Wis); reacting to their weaknesses / positioning yourself and your weapon (Dex); re-accessing strategy / adapting your technique (Int); there's a lot of ability scores that are underrepresented in combat.
Sizing up your opponent (Wis); reacting to their weaknesses / positioning yourself and your weapon (Dex); re-accessing strategy / adapting your technique (Int); there's a lot of ability scores that are underrepresented in combat.
True.
Main reason I think I will just leave the STR/DEX thing alone for now...(May revisit it if I ever alter how AC/combat works)
Guys its the eternal debate...
(The Flame Wars in the Letters section of early Dragons on that subject were truly epic)
And its best we not go far beyond where we have at this point on the STR/Dex thing.
Like I said its Verisimilitude thing (for us it breaks our Suspension of disbelief. )
I'm with you here!
Making Dex the default attack stat for all melee weapons massively f%$~s with the game's balance and genre-based roles. But at the same time, the way RAW works is like some horribly-executed indie game:
Imagine a game called Painting: the Tortured Talent, in which you play a starving artist trying to make it big. Oh, and your character by default adds his Strength modifier to his Profession (painter) checks, until and if he takes a special feat to be able to paint like a normal person.
Crazy.
Guys its the eternal debate...
(The Flame Wars in the Letters section of early Dragons on that subject were truly epic)
And its best we not go far beyond where we have at this point on the STR/Dex thing.
Like I said its Verisimilitude thing (for us it breaks our Suspension of disbelief. )I'm with you here!
Making Dex the default attack stat for all melee weapons massively f!@!s with the game's balance and genre-based roles. But at the same time, the way RAW works is like some horribly-executed indie game:
Imagine a game called Painting: the Tortured Talent, in which you play a starving artist trying to make it big. Oh, and your character by default adds his Strength modifier to his Profession (painter) checks, until and if he takes a special feat to be able to paint like a normal person.
Crazy.
Well... in theory if STR still effected damage; the only big change should be it turns STR based SADs into MADs. And seeing as how roughly 90% of the classes are MAD these days is that such a bad thing?
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Using Dex as the primary combat stat makes sense for systems that have a defense value, but since D&D incorporates armor as defense instead of damage mitigation, Str makes more sense.
If armor provided DR, Dex would make more sense, since striking someone would be a matter of one person's agility against the agility of another. Str would still be required to determine damage.
1. Remove "plus" items and incorporate them into leveling, adjusting wealth by level to compensate. To date positive feedback from players.
In order to eliminate some of "The Big Five", I grant the following inherent bonuses to my players at level:
Level 2: +1 to any ability score
Level 4: +1 to one mental AND +1 to one physical ability score. Also, +1 to hit and damage, +1 armor/shield AC, and +1 saves
Level 6: +1 to any ability score
Level 8: +1 to one mental AND +1 to one physical ability score. Also, +1 to hit and damage, +1 armor/shield AC, and +1 saves
Repeat.
At level 20, this results in:
+5 floating bonuses
+5 physical bonuses
+5 mental bonuses
+5 to hit and damage
+5 to armor and shield AC
+5 to all saves
It allows for more organic character growth and progression. I also get to see more creative magic items on my PCs (rather than the usual "plus items")
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Using Dex as the primary combat stat makes sense for systems that have a defense value, but since D&D incorporates armor as defense instead of damage mitigation, Str makes more sense.
If armor provided DR, Dex would make more sense, since striking someone would be a matter of one person's agility against the agility of another. Str would still be required to determine damage.
Armor has a Dex bonus limit... Kinda indicates that Agility does have an effect if you ask me.
But again this is a never ending debate...
Both sides have had 40 years to perfect their stance.
There is no point one side can bring to bear that the other cannot logically tear asunder.
It is a pointless zero sum argument.
That's on the side of the defender, I'm talking about the attacker.
When armor (including natural armor) provides defense, Str become more important because armor is something that has to be powered through. It's not just a matter of whether the weapon makes contact and where it hits.
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If armor provided DR, Dex would make more sense, since striking someone would be a matter of one person's agility against the agility of another. Str would still be required to determine damage.
Generally true, of course, but the exceptions are there.
Running someone through with a rapier, assuming you DEX the point into a gap in their defenses, isn't going to make them any more dead if you just push really hard.
I'd love to have a couple of stats for hitting-things and hurting-things that really made some sort of logical sense with respect to real world combat, but the amount of fiddling around the arithmetical edges you'd have to do just to account for the interactions between different weapons, fighting styles, and armor types...ugh.
Ain't Nobody Got Time For That, as the kids say.
I'll just take Weapon Finesse and call the resulting abstraction good enough, even if it is naggingly unsatisfying.
If armor provided DR, Dex would make more sense, since striking someone would be a matter of one person's agility against the agility of another. Str would still be required to determine damage.Generally true, of course, but the exceptions are there.
Running someone through with a rapier, assuming you DEX the point into a gap in their defenses, isn't going to make them any more dead if you just push really hard.
I'd love to have a couple of stats for hitting-things and hurting-things that really made some sort of logical sense with respect to real world combat, but the amount of fiddling around the arithmetical edges you'd have to do just to account for the interactions between different weapons, fighting styles, and armor types...ugh.
Ain't Nobody Got Time For That, as the kids say.
I'll just take Weapon Finesse and call the resulting abstraction good enough, even if it is naggingly unsatisfying.
My only issue with that is the burned/wasted feat to achieve it.
Beyond that your point is understood and accepted as pretty much where it stands.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For what it's worth, in many groups, dex to hit in melee with finessable weapons is made a default option for any character. Weapon Finesse is either taken out of the game (and everyone automatically qualifies as if they had it) or changed to allow dex to melee damage with finessable weapons.
huh... a good compromise. I will have to give that one a try next campaign.
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Ok this is one we cannot make our minds up on...
(we use it one campaign and not the next then use it etc...)Attack Bonus is Figured using your Dexterity not your Strength
But Strength does add to damage.
I was always a big fan of this:
Get rid of the weapon finesse feat. Any weapon that you could potentially apply weapon finesse to, you can choose to use STR or DEX on your attack rolls. This includes unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
If you want to keep weapon finesse around (for prerequisites and whatnot), you could have it just apply a +2 bonus on critical confirmation rolls with DEX-based weapon attacks, representing the fact that finesse weapons rely more on hitting vital spots than overcoming opponents with pure force.
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CMB checks only provoke on a failure.
I love this idea so much I want to take it out behind the middle school and get it pregnant.
Actually, my group is almost a year into an E6 campaign, and I've been trying to think of ways to give fighters a little boost.
Turns out that, in a system where everyone will eventually have tons of extra feats, a class based almost entirely on having more feats than other classes is going to suffer in the long run.
So, this seems like a fantastic ability to give fighters at 1st level. Call it "Combat Options." You only provoke AOOs on CMB failures. Love it!
That is why I never play martials. They are just too far from reality for me to get into them.
1. Remove "plus" items and incorporate them into leveling, adjusting wealth by level to compensate. To date positive feedback from players.
In order to eliminate some of "The Big Five", I grant the following inherent bonuses to my players at level:
Level 2: +1 to any ability score
Level 4: +1 to one mental AND +1 to one physical ability score. Also, +1 to hit and damage, +1 armor/shield AC, and +1 saves
Level 6: +1 to any ability score
Level 8: +1 to one mental AND +1 to one physical ability score. Also, +1 to hit and damage, +1 armor/shield AC, and +1 saves
Repeat.
At level 20, this results in:
+5 floating bonuses
+5 physical bonuses
+5 mental bonuses
+5 to hit and damage
+5 to armor and shield AC
+5 to all savesIt allows for more organic character growth and progression. I also get to see more creative magic items on my PCs (rather than the usual "plus items")
Curious if you still have ring of protection (deflection bonus) as well as amulet of natural armor (natural armor bonus), since those are different from and stack with the armor and shield bonuses. I had actually thought of doing something similar, with bonuses at various levels to take the place of the "plus items".