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Just an idle thought, but...
Has anyone ever seen this turn up? That is, a ruling that paladins in good standing are entirely incapable of feeling anything motivated by fear, whether it was fear for others, self-doubt, buried traumas, deeply ingrained fears waiting to be overcome, fear of failure, etc. Stuff that the paladin players themselves might want to bring to the table as things theyir characters have to face and overcome(or fail to).
I can't imagine many GMs roll with that, considering all the roleplaying fuel that it would throw out, but the internets do like proving you wrong.
I don't think I've ever seen that. I have seen paladins so blinded by hubris or fanaticism (Miko Miyazaki!) that they have no room for other emotions, but that's not quite the same thing.
I don't see that ruling ever coming, unless the DM has a problem with paladins. It's clear to me that the immunity only applies to unnaturally imposed fear.
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Put a Paladin and an Anti-Paladin together and see if the Paladin is still immune to fear. :)
My take is not that they are incapable of feeling it, just that it does not affect them. Similar to someone who is afraid and yet ignores the fear.
- Gauss
I've seen idle thoughts like that one debated and discussed before years ago. It doesn't appear to be a common interpretation, and I've never seen it played out that way.
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Just an idle thought, but...
Has anyone ever seen this turn up? That is, a ruling that paladins in good standing are entirely incapable of feeling anything motivated by fear, whether it was fear for others, self-doubt, buried traumas, deeply ingrained fears waiting to be overcome, fear of failure, etc. Stuff that the paladin players themselves might want to bring to the table as things theyir characters have to face and overcome(or fail to).
I can't imagine many GMs roll with that, considering all the roleplaying fuel that it would throw out, but the internets do like proving you wrong.
In every interpretation of this I've seen except one (a story recalled to me about others') I've always seen it as an immunity to the effects of fear, instead of the emotion of fear.
A paladin never hesitates due to fear.
A paladin never wavers due to fear.
A paladin never trembles due to fear.
A paladin never breaks due to fear.
A paladin certainly experiences fear.
A paladin has courage, but not necessarily bravery. Let those fool fighters say, "I'm never afraid! I'm brave!" Bravery is good, but it fails. Bravery is strong, but it has its limits. And ultimately, a brave man will break because they'll never know when their true fears come knocking - the never bothered to learn what they were afraid of.
A paladin knows very well their own fears... but their courage means those fears will not and cannot control them. They have a Duty. Gods help anything - including their own fears - that stands in the way.
I play my paladin's fearless. I imagine they are bolstered by their faith and experience very little doubt (fear of failure) or fear of death (fight or flight). They fight with very clear minds. They have been trained to believe with utter surety in their cause and do not experience the same emotions as others. They are true believers. True believers generally don't experience life the same way as casual or non-believers. They feel at all times the presence of their deity. So they have very little reason to experience fear. Death in service to their god is bliss. Action in service to their deity is pleasure.
The only thing a paladin might fear is loss of faith. If he lost his faith, he wouldn't be a paladin.
The Paladin seems to inspire rants from two types of people. Those who want to put their characters on statues of perfection, and others who are eager to knock them down.
Meh, I'll rant about most anything, really, regardless of whether my paladins are perfect or just begging to be knocked down.
(Personally, I think they're mortal and thus fallible. But their fearlessness is expressed as courage - thus the "Aura of Courage" instead of "Aura of fearlessness" or "Aura of bravery". At least how I take it.)
In the game I run the paladin decided his patron took away his fear along with his ability to take sick days.
He works to roleplay it and the others in the party know his religious condition and take that into consideration when evaluating his suggestions. "He would say that, he's incapable of feeling appropriate fear."
Fear is healthy, it's what puts you in fight or flight mode. Without fear your life expectancy would most likely drop drastically.
The immunity to fear is more like being brave.
Being brave is not absence of fear, it's controlling your fear and doing what needs to be done despite being afraid.
That's my opinion anyway...
Just an idle thought, but...
Has anyone ever seen this turn up? That is, a ruling that paladins in good standing are entirely incapable of feeling anything motivated by fear, whether it was fear for others, self-doubt, buried traumas, deeply ingrained fears waiting to be overcome, fear of failure, etc. Stuff that the paladin players themselves might want to bring to the table as things theyir characters have to face and overcome(or fail to).
Actually this has been examined at our table. It was not a mandatory ruling by the GM but rather an in depth 'RP study' by me and another player about what it meant to be 'fearless'. They played a fighter and myself the Paladin. They brought up the various implications of the status and I ran with it, trying to remove anything from the characters actions that would be motivated at the root by fear, such as racism, shyness in romance, it's effects on hatred and so forth.
It made for some really, really interesting RP.
Mind you fearless does not mean your common sense goes out the window or your intelligence. It does mean you might see things more clearly while unencumbered by fear than others might both in battle and socially.
Also remember you only lose your fear, not your compassion, common sense, ability to love or care for others or to evaluate real danger.
If your a low level you can still look at a dangerous opponent that is too great for you to currently handle and think that wasting your life in a futile fight does not gain anything for you, your patron, your god your companions or those your are seeking to protect.
There is a reason why Paladins are hard to RP properly. I would think this is one of the cool challenges inherent in the class. Removing fear from their psychological make up and seeing how that would effect their daily lives.
I would add on this as well: The implications that people who just stand near the Paladin feel more courageous. Who does not like a person who's mere proximity makes them feel safer and more capable? This would have some sort of subtle effect on others. Combine this with the Paladins generally exeptional Charisma and they make powerful impacts on those they meet.
Possibly one of the reasons Paladins are so well thought of by the populous, along with all the good deeds and saving of the weak and innocent.
But remember that their fearlessness is a Supernatural Ability. It can be nullified in an Anti Magic aura for example or a dead magic region. In such situations it becomes the fighters that are the bravest around. Their bonuses versus fear are extraordinary abilities that they never lose. An interesting flip flop.
@Gilfalas
Being fearless won't make you stupid, but it will likely mess with your risk assessment, making you underestimate dangers.
Thus shortening your life expectancy.
"Fear is a vital response to physical and emotional danger—if we didn't feel it, we couldn't protect ourselves from legitimate threats. But often we fear situations that are far from life-or-death, and thus hang back for no good reason. Traumas or bad experiences can trigger a fear response within us that is hard to quell. Yet exposing ourselves to our personal demons is the best way to move past them".
Source
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"Listen, and understand. That paladin is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."
Paladins were intended to be champions of the Ultimate Good. They were not always tied to deities.
A champion of good must be able to understand fear, and self-doubt. It is just that they do not succumb to them, because theirs is a higher purpose. It's similar to being on a football team. You might hurt, but your team is counting on you. Everyone in the stands is counting on you. And then the adrenaline kicks in.
And yeah, there are a lot of rants here and there. But, at this point I think it's one of those popcorn arguments in DnD. It doesn't go anywhere, and it's just something you'll find occasionally, sort of like fighters versus wizards.
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@Gilfalas
Being fearless won't make you stupid, but it will likely mess with your risk assessment, making you underestimate dangers.
Thus shortening your life expectancy.
It absolutely could, I completely agree.
But a Paladin should also be thinking about those around him. After all he/she is fearless but he/she knows that others are not. He must be vigilant in knowing his own limitations and those of his companions and those around them, making sure he/she considers the lives of others in his/her combat assessments.
Another reason why it is difficult to be a Paladin. Your fearless so your impulse is to challenge all evil, but not knowing your own limitations and indulging in unchecked recklessness is the height of hubris. Martial might and the gifts of that champions of good must be guided by wisdom and thought.
After all, he is fearles but not stupid, incosiderate of the facts or untrained in the ways of combat.
But one of my favorite bits of humor was that the Paladins of Torm in the forgotten realms had the highest mortatlity rates of any Paladins in Toril, because not only were they fearless but they served the god of duty and honor so they would seldom retreat when others would. They would always be the last off the field and protect others even if it meant their lives. And it often meant their lives.
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I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
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@Gilfalas
Being fearless won't make you stupid, but it will likely mess with your risk assessment, making you underestimate dangers.
Thus shortening your life expectancy.It absolutely could, I completely agree.
But a Paladin should also be thinking about those around him. After all he/she is fearless but he/she knows that others are not. He must be vigilant in knowing his own limitations and those of his companions and those around them, making sure he/she considers the lives of others in his/her combat assessments.
Another reason why it is difficult to be a Paladin. Your fearless so your impulse is to challenge all evil, but not knowing your own limitations and indulging in unchecked recklessness is the height of hubris. Martial might and the gifts of that champions of good must be guided by wisdom and thought.
After all, he is fearles but not stupid, incosiderate of the facts or untrained in the ways of combat.
But one of my favorite bits of humor was that the Paladins of Torm in the forgotten realms had the highest mortatlity rates of any Paladins in Toril, because not only were they fearless but they served the god of duty and honor so they would seldom retreat when others would. They would always be the last off the field and protect others even if it meant their lives. And it often meant their lives.
Good points.
Paladins are very hard to play, not only because their "immunity" to fear (whatever the interpretation), but also because their code and the fact that they're more or less expected to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.But a paladin in good standing can expect to join their god in "heaven", which probably makes the sacrifice easier (for the character, the player might not like losing his longtime pc).
Now that I think about it, most people in Golarion probably have a very different view of death than us, since there isn't really a matter of uncertainty about it. The gods are 100% real, it can be proved without a doubt. Heck, if you are powerful enough, you can theoretically visit your dead parents in heaven.
Which has to skew your views about dying.
I think there are plenty of literary examples out there of Paladins who feel fear. Any time we've seen the "Drop it, or your friend/loved one/companion gets it" and the good guy drops his weapon, that's an example of a Paladin feeling fear. (Granted we see that trope with more than just the shiny knights).
The old Ravenloft setting had a lot of interesting things to say in regards to Paladins and fear, and it's the "Immune to Magical Fear, but not the fear they bring with them" interpretation.
Ultimately, Paladins aren't afraid of fighting a mummy. They're not going to crap themselves and flee. The dragon getting ready to unleash fiery doom? Paladin puts his shield up and braces for impact (or dodges, or what have you, point is he isn't all "crap a dragon!"). That same Paladin though could fear for his family and friends during an invasion, or fear for his friend's soul if he gets bitten by a lycanthrop or turned into a vampire. I think these are viable fears that a Paladin could feel, and his/her response to those fears makes for great RPing opportunity. If the paladin lets this fear over take him, he could even risk losing his paladinhood. And how much cooler is the Paladin who falls because he cares TOO MUCH about his friends and family versus the Paladin who becomes callous and evil?
There's a bit of mechanics in Jade Regent (AP #52, p. 19, if you're interested) that explicitly states that paladins cannot regret any of their actions. I find it a rather odd ruling, personally, and one that tends to reinforce the stubborn Lawful Stupid trope, but it does seem to rule out self-doubt.
(I guess if you do something you later regret, you've fallen and need an atonement? It's a little black and white for my tastes.)
There's a bit of mechanics in Jade Regent (AP #52, p. 19, if you're interested) that explicitly states that paladins cannot regret any of their actions. I find it a rather odd ruling, personally, and one that tends to reinforce the stubborn Lawful Stupid trope, but it does seem to rule out self-doubt.
(I guess if you do something you later regret, you've fallen and need an atonement? It's a little black and white for my tastes.)
That just seems really...off to me. I mean, the whole point of the Atonement spell is to allow someone like a Paladin to go "Hey I did something wrong and I need to make up for in a super powerfully magical way". If Paladins can't feel regret, then they would never see the need for Atonement, instead assuming any drawbacks they encounter would merely be additional trials for them to overcome, which would probably galvanize their behavior and cause them to fall even more rapidly. Seems really silly.
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There's a bit of mechanics in Jade Regent (AP #52, p. 19, if you're interested) that explicitly states that paladins cannot regret any of their actions.
I can never regret. I can feel sorrow, but it isn't the same thing."
As for the OP, Monte Cook long ago wrote an article called "Absolutes that could Change" about things like the paladin's immunity to fear or an elf's immunity to sleep. I can no longer find the original article, but a child of the same can be found on SKR's page here.
Good stuff.
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There's something heartwarming about a general agreement forming across a paladin discussion. :)
That just seems really...off to me. I mean, the whole point of the Atonement spell is to allow someone like a Paladin to go "Hey I did something wrong and I need to make up for in a super powerfully magical way". If Paladins can't feel regret, then they would never see the need for Atonement, instead assuming any drawbacks they encounter would merely be additional trials for them to overcome, which would probably galvanize their behavior and cause them to fall even more rapidly. Seems really silly.There's a bit of mechanics in Jade Regent (AP #52, p. 19, if you're interested) that explicitly states that paladins cannot regret any of their actions. I find it a rather odd ruling, personally, and one that tends to reinforce the stubborn Lawful Stupid trope, but it does seem to rule out self-doubt.
(I guess if you do something you later regret, you've fallen and need an atonement? It's a little black and white for my tastes.)
Seriously, regret being one of the voices of one's conscience and all that. "Feels no regret" doesn't say "paladin" to me so much as "sociopath".
I'm looking at my paladin now and the guy has tons of regret.
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I know it's necro-fuing, but I was showing the movie to my toddler, when I realized Mrs. Brisby would make an amazing paladin.
Terrified all the daggum time, but, regardless of that, doing everything she can.
Dumped the INT, of course (because she's a mouse, and probably has a poor STR and CON (being so tiny) but she's got a good DEX and an amazing WIS and CHA.
(Incidentally, the rats were all lawful.)
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I played a paladin once who was while very powerful (decent stats and such) was still just a kid in many ways so fear was very much a daily part of his life. Fear of women, fear for his companions, fear of his destiny. but even though he was afraid he would hold his head high and run into those situations coming out of them some times very very bloody, but alive or in a few cases dead or fallen. Good times I salute thee Sir Goldenfield.
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Paladins have got to feel regret. The iconic Seelah certainly regrets stealing Acemi's helmet.
"Fear's important. Fear makes you think. Fear keeps you alive." -- Cosmic Boy of the Legion of Superheroes
The main thing I always saw was Paladins who thought 'immunity to fear' meant 'cannot retreat, must attack anything'. The ability means you can't be affected by external effects that make you feel fear. Being afraid of an opponent or monster who is WAY out of your league is perfectly fine.
Chris, either I misunderstood something severely, or several posts got caught up in the deleting I didn't think were against the rules at all.
EDIT: ah, it was the neologism wasn't it? Just got it.
Put a Paladin and an Anti-Paladin together and see if the Paladin is still immune to fear. :)
And I'm looking forward to putting it to the test in the near future. =)
Jaelithe, not really. They should be pretty close to evenly matched although at some levels I would give the advantage to the Anti-Paladin due to the more offensive nature of his Touch of Corruption, Cruelties, and Auras.
Additionally, the Anti-Paladin removes the Paladin's immunity to fear.
Then again, Litany of Righteousness is overpowered and could finish the Anti-Paladin before he has a chance.
Yes, I know what you mean, but I also know what my player's Anti-Paladin can do. It should be an interesting fight. :)
Fixed: Yeah, I don't know why I keep doing that. LOL
Ehm...Gauss always forgets that I'm not the Anti-Paladin player. -.-
I'm the Necromancer JuJu Oracle. But I can Fear and Aura of Doom people!
Jaelithe, it is Way of the Wicked, a LE campaign (Anti-paladin changed to LE but not really anything else different).
Way of the Wicked specifically makes a statement that Anti-paladins should be changed to LE for this campaign. :)
