Agents of Shield


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Grand Lodge

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Shadowborn wrote:

I'm going with LMD because of the conversation an episode or two ago about muscle memory. He was wondering why he was having such a hard time with what should be a simple task due to muscle memory. The obvious answer is that those particular muscles have no memory of that activity.

Of course, that opens the question of "Why?" Why make an LMD of Coulson? What is it about him that makes it imperative he continue to work for SHIELD? Does he know something important? Usually agents are expendable.

I don't think Coulson is a run-of-the-mill agent. He's one of Fury's (the Director's) right-hand people.

The Exchange

I smell Red Herring.


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Skeld wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:

I'm going with LMD because of the conversation an episode or two ago about muscle memory. He was wondering why he was having such a hard time with what should be a simple task due to muscle memory. The obvious answer is that those particular muscles have no memory of that activity.

Of course, that opens the question of "Why?" Why make an LMD of Coulson? What is it about him that makes it imperative he continue to work for SHIELD? Does he know something important? Usually agents are expendable.

I don't think Coulson is a run-of-the-mill agent. He's one of Fury's (the Director's) right-hand people.

Except that he's just "Agent Coulson." Maria Hill is Fury's right hand. Coulson's been mysteriously resurrected and placed in charge of a (mostly) autonomous cell of the organization. He's obviously not irreplaceable, because Fury let everyone else without proper security clearance (including all the Avengers) think he's dead. Presumably there's some other agent doing Coulson's former job now. So that leaves the question as to what it is about Coulson that's so damned important (besides the meta stuff, like his name and the character being a popular audience draw.)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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I still think Ward's the LMD.


Matthew Morris wrote:
I still think Ward's the LMD.

Then they need to do a recall and tweak the personality system a little so it comes across as more realistic. ;-)

Dark Archive

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It is odd that you have to have SHIELD clearance level 7 to know that Coulson is alive, but if you aren't in SHIELD, he can apparently tell everyone he ever meets his name and that he works for SHIELD...

That doesn't seem like how a security clearance should work, that you only keep a secret from others in your organization below your clearance level, but blab it all over the place to everyone else, including members of foreign military organizations.


They're all mind-wiped after the fact.

Then again...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I think Coulson is an LMD, just not the sort of LMD comic readers are expecting. The whole point of LMDs is to provide an expendable facsimile of a living agent or VIP, hence the "decoy" in the acronym. S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't build LMDs of dead people. Based on the comics, if the Coulson we're seeing is an LMD, then the real Coulson is probably still alive somewhere. Maybe we'll see Agent Coulson find himself in suspended animation but, if he's some sort of android, I think there's a fair chance he turns out to be something closer to Phineas Horton's Synthetic Man aka Jim Hammond, aka The Human Torch. Right there, you have an example of a human-appearing android that exists in the movie universe.

Having Coulson turn out to be a next gen model of the Synthetic Man would be a neat way to tie in the movie universe trivia and subtly hint at a connection to Coulson's admiration of Captain America (that image came from Cap's movie if you don't recall.) I'm not sure why they would build an android of Coulson specifically, but it could even be a kind of Six Million Dollar Man or Robocop thing where technology and opportunity intersected. The only thing that doesn't really fit with him being an LMD or robot is that, so far, he seems to be completely human in terms of strength and endurance. I guess those are switches that could have been turned off but why build a robo-Coulson if you're not going to make him at least strong enough to wrestle a bionic bigfoot?

Hmmm, Six Million Dollar Man was an ABC show, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is an ABC show...

Agent Coulson vs. Bigfoot = ratings gold.


Velcro Zipper wrote:

I think Coulson is an LMD, just not the sort of LMD comic readers are expecting. The whole point of LMDs is to provide an expendable facsimile of a living agent or VIP, hence the "decoy" in the acronym. S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't build LMDs of dead people. Based on the comics, if the Coulson we're seeing is an LMD, then the real Coulson is probably still alive somewhere. Maybe we'll see Agent Coulson find himself in suspended animation but, if he's some sort of android, I think there's a fair chance he turns out to be something closer to Phineas Horton's Synthetic Man aka Jim Hammond, aka The Human Torch. Right there, you have an example of a human-appearing android that exists in the movie universe.

Having Coulson turn out to be a next gen model of the Synthetic Man would be a neat way to tie in the movie universe trivia and subtly hint at a connection to Coulson's admiration of Captain America (that image came from Cap's movie if you don't recall.) I'm not sure why they would build an android of Coulson specifically, but it could even be a kind of Six Million Dollar Man or Robocop thing where technology and opportunity intersected. The only thing that doesn't really fit with him being an LMD or robot is that, so far, he seems to be completely human in terms of strength and endurance. I guess those are switches that could have been turned off but why build a robo-Coulson if you're not going to make him at least strong enough to wrestle a bionic bigfoot?

They could have made the LMD before Coulson was killed, for whatever reason they needed an LMD for.

And I don't particularly recall LMDs being that superhuman. At least back in the early SHIELD days.


Tony Stark's LMD needed the Iron Man armor to be super...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The point is, if the technology exists to make a robot duplicate of the guy, why make it so ordinary? And if S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't capable of making LMDs that are at least slightly stronger than humans, why keep one around that's modeled on a dead guy? I know early LMDs were grown in a vat and could be killed about as easily as the person they were copying, but that was a long time ago and there have been a bunch since that were tougher or even had weapons built into them.

The entire Zodiac villain team was replaced by LMDs with powers and there was a Nick Fury LMD in the Marvel Knights series that was built like the Terminator. Max Fury, the LMD who believed he really was Nick, was at least as tough as Captain America and probably just as strong.

I still think it's not going to be a typical comic book LMD and more of a reimagined version, maybe even a cyborg-like thing with Coulson's consciousness and a cloned body. Maybe S.H.I.E.L.D. got ahold of some of Arnim Zola's journals? Just, with every geeky website out there shouting LMD as soon as it was announced Coulson was coming back, I would hope the writers would come up with a different enough take on it to still surprise people. If it turns out he just got better I think that would be kind of a letdown.

Sovereign Court

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I honestly think that Marvel guys are trolling us. I think that Coulson is the same man he was, but that they used some sort of alien technology to bring him back from the dead.


The idea of Coulson being an LDM is a little far fetched. It's obvious he's not an android (which that's what they are in the comics). And if SHIELD has the technology to create a fully functional flesh and blood being with the memories of the original, then the question is, where the hell did they get that kind of technology? I don't think he's a clone either because of his scar tissue (unless they surgically put it there to throw people off). I think he simply died and was brought back (like it happens in thousands of hospitals across the world), but maybe using advanced medical technology or maybe an artifact that SHIELD had tucked away.


Yeah, I'd rather Ward be the LMD (Gasp! Matt and I agree on something!), mostly cause it fits his non-personality. And while it's almost too obvious to make Coulson the LMD, I have been hoping since ep. 1 that he is actually instead the pre-Ellis/pre-Nextwave Machine Man especially since Quesada and others at Marvel aren't the happiest with the Nextwave Machine Man characterization (but then others seem happy to use this version as 616 continuity). But if I had to place money on it, Coulson is a clone and we won't see anything close to an LMD or Machine Man because the execs are afraid of stepping on the Ultron storyline in Avengers 2.

I'm still pretty meh on the show so far, and I really only like Coulson and May. Everyone else is getting on my nerves, especially the non-chemistry between Ward and Skye. "Girl in the Flower Dress" was especially grating for the lazy and tone-deaf "Hackers BAD!" and "Fascism and Surveillance State GOOD!" b@#$*+*#. I've heard someone comment (elsewhere) that this theme may be foreshadowing what is coming (based on the trailer) with S.H.I.E.L.D. in Winter Soldier, but I don't think the writers have that kind of skill or subtlety.

I'm giving the show until ep. 8 to noticeably improve before giving up completely, assuming ep. 7 isn't so mindnumbingly dull or head a'sploding stupid that I give up there.


Shadowborn wrote:
I'm going with LMD because of the conversation an episode or two ago about muscle memory. He was wondering why he was having such a hard time with what should be a simple task due to muscle memory. The obvious answer is that those particular muscles have no memory of that activity.

In a more recent episode he also described himself as feeling "rusty" and his physical showed "a little too much iron" in his blood. Neither means anything alone, and together they probably mean nothing, but in combination with the loss of muscle memory they could be additional hints of an artificial or artificially enhanced body.

Shadow Lodge

I'm speculating. I do not think they are going to go with the team being super powered. When Coulson died in the Avengers, he was stabbed by Loki's scepter/spear and the show says he was gone for 8 - 80 seconds, also making references to a vacation, (possibly mystic).

In the Avengers, Cpt A started to mistrust SHIELD for a bit and went searching through some of their storage, finding the old Nazi tech, and some other stuff, (unknown).

In Thor 2:
We discover that (for sure) the Tesseract is one of the 6 (or 7) Infinity Stones (Infinity Gems), and being Blue is likely the Gem of Mind. We also see that the second one is now discovered, as it is given to the collector at the end scene. <There are 6 Infinity Gems, which are sort of the manifestations of one of the primal concepts that powers the universe, and allow the person that has them unlimited access to that power. They are Green = Soul, Orange = Time, Purple = Space, Blue = Mind, Yellow = Reality, and Red = Power, (and sometimes a 7th, Gold, which is complicate and special, and likely not going to be part of this)>

So, when Coulson died, basically the Helocarrier had to have whatever it was on board. I'm thinking that SHIELD has the

Thor 2:
Soul "Infinity Stone" and that might have been part of what Cpt A found, but because A.) being green, he probably believed it was Hulk related and B.) probably believed that SHIELD was trying to duplicate the Tesseract, rather than it was a completely new and different one. Going back the end of Thor 2, it's pretty clear that they do not want any 2 of the "Infinity Stone" too close, (on the same world/realm), which makes a lot more sense why there was little fuss with them returning the Tesseract to Asgard, and obviously removing the other from Asgard at the end of Thor 2.

So, I'm thinking maybe they used that to either remove his soul for a while, or to call it back to his body later, which would really play into the banter about him feeling off, and that death changes you, as it would have been an unnatural return, artificial. Even more so that they might have begun to repair his body while away.

A lot of this is based on the idea they 1.) the LMD seems far to obvious and kind of cliché, 2.) they probably do not want to make anyone super powered, (and I would imagine that in the last episode him having metal parts might have been very bad), and 3.) that they want to subtly tie back in with the overarching plots coming up.

Anyway, that's what I'm thinking.


Shadowborn wrote:

They're all mind-wiped after the fact.

Then again...

Yep. Agents of SHIELD are the new Torchwood.

My money is on this being a Matrix style simulation designed to keep Coleson's mind active while he's slowly nursed back to health in a bacta-tank.

Cheers
Mark

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Interestingly with the revelations above, the 11/19 episode is supposed to tie into Thor: The Dark World.


I'm still waiting for the show to stop dropping viewership. It needs to level off something fierce...if it doesn't happen in the next two weeks I highly doubt it gets picked up beyond this year despite still decent viewership. The cost of the TV show is undoubtedly much higher than the usual 1 hour drama fare.

Sovereign Court

Kayland wrote:
I'm still waiting for the show to stop dropping viewership. It needs to level off something fierce...if it doesn't happen in the next two weeks I highly doubt it gets picked up beyond this year despite still decent viewership. The cost of the TV show is undoubtedly much higher than the usual 1 hour drama fare.

I thought it already got green lit for a second season. Am I wrong?


Pan wrote:
Kayland wrote:
I'm still waiting for the show to stop dropping viewership. It needs to level off something fierce...if it doesn't happen in the next two weeks I highly doubt it gets picked up beyond this year despite still decent viewership. The cost of the TV show is undoubtedly much higher than the usual 1 hour drama fare.
I thought it already got green lit for a second season. Am I wrong?

They got an extension beyond the initial 13 episodes.

Is that what you're thinking of?

Sovereign Court

Rubber Ducky guy wrote:
Pan wrote:
Kayland wrote:
I'm still waiting for the show to stop dropping viewership. It needs to level off something fierce...if it doesn't happen in the next two weeks I highly doubt it gets picked up beyond this year despite still decent viewership. The cost of the TV show is undoubtedly much higher than the usual 1 hour drama fare.
I thought it already got green lit for a second season. Am I wrong?

They got an extension beyond the initial 13 episodes.

Is that what you're thinking of?

Is this show 13 episodes a season or the 24 variety. It seems like the 24 variety but anyways that must be what I was thinking. I really wouldn't worry about the show I doubt they will pull the plug on it until after they test out the movie tie ins.


"He's acting like a robot version of himself," says Skye.

Hmm...

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rubber Ducky guy wrote:
Pan wrote:
Kayland wrote:
I'm still waiting for the show to stop dropping viewership. It needs to level off something fierce...if it doesn't happen in the next two weeks I highly doubt it gets picked up beyond this year despite still decent viewership. The cost of the TV show is undoubtedly much higher than the usual 1 hour drama fare.
I thought it already got green lit for a second season. Am I wrong?

They got an extension beyond the initial 13 episodes.

Is that what you're thinking of?

Last news I saw, the network had ordered a full set of episodes for the first season. I don't know that they've made any decisions on season 2, however all indications are that the sow isn't in dire peril or anything right now.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Amusingly, I enjoyed this week's character development episode more. Putting some distance between Fitz and Simmons helped them both, and Chloe's discovery does kind of match up what we're seeing with the Winter Soldier trailers.

And Victoria frakking Hand! I got my agents confused for a second and thought we were getting Abigale Brand, but still.

Sovereign Court

Hm, some actual character development. I like it. And everyone was fun to watch. I think that the show is slowly coming into its own.

Agent Brand is from SWORD. I don't think that they wanna put SWORD up untill there is the Damocles base. So there would have to be Kang. Which is a little too much for a group of badass normals to deal with.

I'm still looking forward to a cameo from one of the stars of the Marvel movies. Now that would be amazing.

Spoiler:
Who could the agent who dropped Skye off be? And why? Damn, I wanna know!

Shadow Lodge

As far as ratings go, I have a feeling that this might get a bit more leeway than some others shows in regards to staying on the air. After all, in addition to being a regular show, I imagine that Disney looks at it as an opportunity for world-building for the MCU.


*sigh* another 12% drop in ratings for six straight weeks of bottoming out. I very much enjoy the show...but sorry with what is undoubtedly an expensive show to produce...it's not looking good beyond this year.

Sovereign Court

Hey, it's only episode 7. They have 17 more to go.

The Exchange

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Episode 6 was really good. It made FitzSimmons into Fitz and Simmons. Or at least started the show on the path to do so. They used to be the least interesting personnel on the team, but now I'm kind of liking the girl (that's Simmons, I think). And the scene where Agent Word just rushes so quickly and efficiently for the sky dive was kind of awesome. After so many gritty stories Iv'e read these last few years, I'm a sucker for some heroics.

This is not a Joss Whedon show, so I somehow manage to avoid comparing it with Firefly. And when the expectations are kinda low, I'm enjoying it a great deal. Kinda like Doctor Who.

Sovereign Court

Well, i donćt think anything can really compare with firefly. I mean that show grabbed me episode 1.

Many a show had problem with viewership until it came into its own. And AoS is doing that, a little slowly, but surely.

Liberty's Edge

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Lots of kvetching about Skye; I recommend you skip this if you're tired of reading the oodles of negative comments dotting the internets about this character.:
Whichever agent is responsible for Skye being left at that orphanage, they must still have a metric f*#^ton of pull at S.H.I.E.L.D. because I can't fathom why she hasn't been disappeared or discreetly loaded into that rocket they used a while back and fired into the sun. I guess maybe Coulson's bosses are putting part of the blame on themselves for hiring chimpanzees to design their firewalls or continuing to allow a civilian, repeat information security liability who is responsible for the deaths of several people, including legitimate S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, to dig through their network. After last night's episode, I was expecting both Skye and Simmons to be shot for treason or at least sent to Prison 42. If S.H.I.E.L.D. were the NSA or at least, ya know, some kind of clandestine spy agency, Skye should already be fertilizer for that crap she pulled in episode 5.

Argh. At least Ward is just boring. Skye's continued presence is preposterous and irritating. It's starting to feel like the whole plot is going to be revealed to be a Mary Sue fanfic written by the real Skye who turns out to be a homeless, burnout S.H.I.E.L.D. groupie living in her van behind Tony Stark's favorite shawarma joint.

Anyway, anyone else notice how automated Coulson's response about Tahiti was this episode? It's almost like he's been programmed or brainwashed to say "It's a magical place," every time someone mentions the place, though this time he seemed to realize we was doing it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Velcro Zipper wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Anyway, anyone else notice how automated Coulson's response about Tahiti was this episode? It's almost like he's been programmed or brainwashed to say "It's a magical place," every time someone mentions the place, though this time he seemed to realize we was doing it.

Yeah, I think that was the moment where he realizes that something isn't right, and he got that confirmed when he couldn't get his own recovery report.


I'd been thinking the same thing about Coulson's Tahiti response and this episode looks like Coulson clued into it himself. This episdoe gave him two things. A reason to doubt SHIELD and followed it up with evidence that he is Right not to trust the system.

The Skye reveal is interesting.

Spoiler:
From the looks of things that mystery agent is the reason she's an orphan. Guessing the corpse photo in the file is Skye's mother.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also I really enjoyed Coulson's Lawful and Good natures conflicting in his monologue with Mae.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Velcro Zipper wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Anyway, anyone else notice how automated Coulson's response about Tahiti was this episode? It's almost like he's been programmed or brainwashed to say "It's a magical place," every time someone mentions the place, though this time he seemed to realize we was doing it.

And following up on your spoiler ...

Spoiler:
... And if S.H.I.E.L.D. is a more overt military/law-enforcement operation - which it appears to be with logos on their vehicles and such - they Sky (and Simmons) would be arrested and on their way to trial.

Also, since S.H.I.E.L.D. is not that covert, the military has actual procedures for dealing with the dependents of those killed in the line of duty.

But then, Mr. Whedon does have some "Mary Sue" tendencies as an author.

The Exchange

Lord Fyre wrote:
Velcro Zipper wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Anyway, anyone else notice how automated Coulson's response about Tahiti was this episode? It's almost like he's been programmed or brainwashed to say "It's a magical place," every time someone mentions the place, though this time he seemed to realize we was doing it.

And following up on your spoiler ...

** spoiler omitted **

Argh, could people please realize this is NOT a Whedon show (his brother doesn't reall count)? I mean, he is partially involved in very limited aspects of the show. That's it.

Anyway, yeah, Simmons and Skye should have been arrested, questioned, and a whole bunch of other things for what they did. How are viewers supposed to take SHIELD seriously after seeing how forgiving/stupid they are?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Lord Snow wrote:
Anyway, yeah, Simmons and Skye should have been arrested, questioned, and a whole bunch of other things for what they did. How are viewers supposed to take SHIELD seriously after seeing how forgiving/stupid they are?

And, given how manipulative and treacherous S.H.I.E.L.D. is being shown to be, how are we supposed to "root" for them.

Kthulhu wrote:
As far as ratings go, I have a feeling that this might get a bit more leeway than some others shows in regards to staying on the air. After all, in addition to being a regular show, I imagine that Disney looks at it as an opportunity for world-building for the MCU.

If what you mean is building a Hostility for the Marvel Cinematic Universe, then they are right on target.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Given the tie in with the movies, if what we're seeing in the Winter Soldier trailers is accurate, then SHIELD is manipulative and treacherous, not jsut 'shown to be'.

MAybe we'll see SHIELD change in Winter Soldier, and the show will reflect that.

Amusing casting on Victoria Hand, FWIW.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Matthew Morris wrote:
Given the tie in with the movies, if what we're seeing in the Winter Soldier trailers is accurate, then SHIELD is manipulative and treacherous, not jsut 'shown to be'.

And this is the problem.

We live in a post Edward Snowden world. A Government Organization that is manipulative and treacherous will be seen by the Viewing Public as villains - as will characters who are a willing part of it.

People understand that some secrets need to be kept - but in today's world it really helps if the Agency doing it is seen as trustworthy.

This is why the NSA revelations have been so damaging. They destroyed the people's trust in the government - completing the work that George W. Bush's problems had started. (And showed that Obama is not so different from his predecessor.)

The Exchange

DM Beckett wrote:

I'm speculating. I do not think they are going to go with the team being super powered. When Coulson died in the Avengers, he was stabbed by Loki's scepter/spear and the show says he was gone for 8 - 80 seconds, also making references to a vacation, (possibly mystic).

In the Avengers, Cpt A started to mistrust SHIELD for a bit and went searching through some of their storage, finding the old Nazi tech, and some other stuff, (unknown).

** spoiler omitted **

So, when Coulson died, basically the Helocarrier had to have whatever it was on board. I'm thinking that SHIELD has the ** spoiler omitted **

So, I'm thinking maybe they used that to either remove his soul for a while, or to call it back to his body later, which would really play into the banter about him feeling off, and that death changes...

Spoiler:
I actually think the tesseract is the space gem given it created portals, with Aether being reality as Malakith was using it to reshape the universe (alos it being given into the keeping of the Collector. Thats of course open to debate but thats just my feelings there.

To be honest, much of how law enforcement/government oversight works in both the movies and the comics is disconnected from how it would function in reality.

Half to most of the Avengers (as well as Coulson) would have been in a cell (or at least discharged) before the events of Avengers if the world operated the same way ours does. Most of the rest (including Fury) would have met the same fate after.

Sovereign Court

Seriously, who trusts their government anyway?


In the comics, S.H.I.E.L.D. has often swung between being a good-guy organization and a bad-guy group that employs some good-guys.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

QXL99 wrote:
In the comics, S.H.I.E.L.D. has often swung between being a good-guy organization and a bad-guy group that employs some good-guys.

True.

But we are not talking about the Comics. We are talking about a show with a slowly declining viewership.


Which makes conspiracy plotting a smart move--viewers will come back to see a mystery teased out, not for a villain of the week formula.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Grey Lensman wrote:
Half to most of the Avengers (as well as Coulson) would have been in a cell (or at least discharged) before the events of Avengers if the world operated the same way ours does. Most of the rest (including Fury) would have met the same fate after.

How do you actually arrest Bruce Banner or Thor?

While you could arrest Stark, good luck holding him.


Another week and another "wheres the villian". Wheres the "big bad" that buffy had every week. I did like some of the character development and some of the inner shield stuff but i'm fast forwarding through most of the show.

Preview for next week looks like more of the same


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There is a big bad, It's who ever is working on this Centipede project, we just don't know who they are yet cause they have only popped up two or three times so far.

I was originally thinking HYDRA or AIM or one of the other evil Marvel Groups, but I'm starting to get a nasty suspicion that it might be a splinter faction of SHIELD

Which might be the biggest reason for Fury giving Coulson's team such a high level of autonomy. If there is something Rotten in SHIELD and Fury knows it, then Coulson MK2 and an elite team floating just outside the normal organization hierarchy might be just the thing he needs.


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If people want to nitpick the show to death they can always replace it with a reality TV show. People should be damn grateful that they're putting this out at all. Like every show there are things that I would do differently but I feel the positives way out weigh the negatives.

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