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So, you're facing a character that is optimized for survival. He's good at resisting your strengths and knows several ways to be effective. If you punch at his AC you're playing roulette on your attacks. I'd punch at his saves and make HIM play roulette. If he has to make multiple saves per round, each one is Save or Go home, he will eventually lose. Base saves for a Monk at L9 are +6/+6/+6. With stat bonuses that could reasonably be an average of +9, with feats it might get up to +13. Saving Throw Roulette is not the optimal way of winning, though, it's the attrition method.
I'd also suggest flooding the battlefield with summons (A single Pugwampi and ranged assault is surprisingly effective). Multiple monsters with different abilities, threat ranges, grab/pull/push attacks and more can accomplish quite a lot.
Spells that do not allow a save are good, like a Wall of Ice in a dome around him. Then just walk away. Or, at least tell the GM that's what you do while you watch his face turn colors. If you coordinate effects you can have a persistent AoE drop in the same segment you put the dome of ice down. Now he has to sit in that effect until he figures a way out. This gives you time to deal with other things or come up with a new plan.
Aid Another for attack provides bonuses to hit, so your melee can work with each other to get past that AC30. The bottom line is you need to start looking over your characters and seeing what you can do that does not push against his strengths. With Improved Evasion, Fireballs are not an optimal solution.
Grapples can work since after you grapple you can then attempt to pin, and pinned creatures cannot make attacks.
Summon monsters with high CMBs, preferably ones who have even higher grapple checks, and have everyone who can just summon these. Round 1 have them all grapple from flanking, one is sure to hit meaning the Monk has to use his standard to get out of it. This means that if you surround him in such a way that he has to acrobatics out of the way he has to beat ALL of your CMDs just to not provoke an AOO to move out of his threatened square.
This is to use acrobatics to not provoke AOOs he has to first with his one and only dice roll defeat the CMD of everyone whose square he is not moving through.
Then, his dice roll must be high enough to defeat the CMD of the person who is in the square he is moving through.
If he wants to move full speed then the CMD for this is +10, meaning to move through a level 1 rogue's square who has 10 str/dex and is medium sized this guy has to get at LEAST a 10 + 10 + 5 (25) to not provoke an attack of opportunity.
So, grapple him to death. When he becomes grappled his AC and CMD go down by 4 points. Flanking still adds +2, and for each person grappling him his CMD to escape the grapple through CMB or Escape Artist goes up by 5. He can still take his turns to full attack, but once he is pinned all he can do it die since everyone does automatic damage each round, and he does none.
All this said you should expect this monk to have some sort of item of bullcrap that lets him teleport away when he gets too low on HP or something. Once you get the "Wall of" spells you can defeat him simply by mass walling him in somewhere so he burns to death.
Never underestimate the power of illusions. Unless he SEES you cast an illusion spell he has to defeat the will-save DC to not step into that pit he thinks is real.
As a rule whenever I make an NPC that is supposed to be the adversary of the PCs I use the same point buy the PCs use. For the minions I use standard arrays.
From what you are saying it sounds like he might just be giving this guy B.S. stats to make him invincible.
Monks are a spell casters nightmare, especially an arcane caster. The trick to beating the monk is to be in control of the battle field. You should try to make it so he has to come to you instead of you coming to him. This will give you a chance to prepare and buff your selves up. Start by summoning some allies to help deal with the minions. After you have some decent allies cast spells that will boost all of them. Haste, Prayer and Protection form Law Communal would all be good spells to cast. These will mainly be dealing the minions but some may also help with the monk.
Figure out who the best combatant in the group is. The rogue is probably not going to be the one, because most rogues rely on sneak attack which will probably not be very effective. If you have a cleric in the party he will probably be the best choice. Have anyone who can buff him up where they can. He should also be under the effects of the group buffs.
The rest of the party can still attack the monk while the summoned creatures are dealing with the minions. Avoid spells that allow a saving throw or target touch attacks. If the monk is using any kind of metal weapon use the spell burning disarm. It does allow a saving throw, but the saving throw is to drop the object.
The suggestion of using Aid other to attack the monk is a good one. The summoned creatures can also be doing this.
Magic Missile always hits.
Hold Person with your rogue in position to Coup-De-Grace if the monk fails their save.
Hire someone to help you fight the monk.
Negotiate with the monk, maybe you can come to an agreement.
Go on a different quest, where you won't encounter the monk.
Have the rogue sneak into the enemy camp and kill the monk in his/her sleep.
Buy some scrolls to help you fight the monk.
Have the rogue craft a trap for the monk and lay an ambush.
Magus repeatedly using True Strike.
Buff the rogue's attack bonus: Bless, Heroism, Haste, flanking, Vanish, Reduce Person, don't use Power Attack, Bull's Strength, etc.
+1 for magic missile.
The only thing that can nearly kill my PFS lvl11.
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Tell your GM to follow the rules, for starters. As Krodjin states, you can't jump up and then take a full attack. Also, where does it say that levitate has a maximum height of 30 ft.?
Tell your GM to stop throwing Epic+ encounters at you. CR 9 for your APL 6 party would be fine on its own, but if he's coming along with a 'squad' of CR 6+ fighters, that's outside the baseline assumptions of the game.
I don't think you will manage to defeat this guy; GM just likes his monk too much. That said... summon nature's ally III for 1d4+1 stirges. Do that multiple times.
Call your GM on his b&#*@*!@. A 30 foot high jump is a DC 120. Unless you're using Mythic rules and there's some sort of super jump rules in there that I don't know about, sounds like GM is just making stuff up.
All that aside, what sort of casters does your party have? How many people have Use Magic Device? Just magic missile him all day. At best, he likely has at most 100 hp, unless your GM is cheating again.
If you can afford, fly for all, then scribe scroll for magic missile, a lot of them ( best if you can afford a cl 9 wand) and fill remaining slots with magic missile. Give the rogue greater invisibility, iirc monk don't get uncanny dodge, so his ac should drop a bit. Then, if you can grapple him, he cannot escape from magic missile.
My GM has created a NPC CR 9 monk that we've been encountering intermediately. Our party has one level 5, two level 6s, and one level 7. 3 casters and a rogue. The monk has fought us to a standstill several times (usually because the GM doesn't just send a squad of fodder with him, but a full squad of CR 6+ fighters, all with Quick Draw and light crossbows. All our casters can fly / levitate, but none of us can cast protection from arrows.
Further, the monk was built such that he can use a qi point to jump to 30 feet (max levitate height) and get in 4 attacks if he hits.
Even ignoring the arrows, we simply cannot kill this #$*%ing monk! Base AC 30, ridiculously high fort, will, AND reflex saves. No SR (and only DR/5 fire & cold).
How do you kill a monk like this (other than just fly up and use lots of area effects...)?
Another thing to look at. Sometimes the best spells to case in this situation are not directly at said Monk. Have you looked at Buffs?
Tell your GM to follow the rules, for starters. As Krodjin states, you can't jump up and then take a full attack. Also, where does it say that levitate has a maximum height of 30 ft.?
Tell your GM to stop throwing Epic+ encounters at you. CR 9 for your APL 6 party would be fine on its own, but if he's coming along with a 'squad' of CR 6+ fighters, that's outside the baseline assumptions of the game.
I don't think you will manage to defeat this guy; GM just likes his monk too much. That said... summon nature's ally III for 1d4+1 stirges. Do that multiple times.
This is what I'd suggest, especially the part about calling your DM out on bulls***.
Get all the other players on your side on this first, so you can guarantee some changes.
Hello there, fellow pathfinders and paizonians.
In a situation like this I would suggest having a bugout plan for when the monk show up. Give him a look of scorn, throw a few insults and then leave. Or even better; ignore him when you leave.
This is obviously a very frustrating enemy for your group and I'll second what's been said before by others; you won't defeat him. It's obvioius that your GM likes the monk very much and won't let him get taken down. The most effective thing to do in such a situation is to have your characters realize that fighting him is pointless and find ways to avoid/run away from him.
There are two or three advantages to this. First: you don't have to waste ressources on a hopeless battle. Second: if you ignore him, your gm will get bored with him and maybe retire him. And/or third: He'll get as frustrated as you are now and make some mistakes that will allow you to finally defeat his monk.
Note that I do not reccomend a war of passive aggression, everything should be done in-game. Smart characters learn from their mistakes after all ;)
Also, if you know your DM is cheating and everyone is sick of it you can start your own game and no one show up to his game. When he contacts everyone just point out that you all got sick of him cheating to break the game and went on to something better. Inform him that he is welcome to join your group if he is going to play by the damn rules.
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Call your GM on his b&!%$++#. A 30 foot high jump is a DC 120. Unless you're using Mythic rules and there's some sort of super jump rules in there that I don't know about, sounds like GM is just making stuff up.
To be fair, he only has to jump 25', and use his 5' reach, so that would 'only' be DC 100.
My GM has created a NPC CR 9 monk that we've been encountering intermediately. Our party has one level 5, two level 6s, and one level 7. 3 casters and a rogue.
Why are you such disparate levels? the party should all be around the same level.
The monk has fought us to a standstill several times (usually because the GM doesn't just send a squad of fodder with him, but a full squad of CR 6+ fighters, all with Quick Draw and light crossbows. All our casters can fly / levitate, but none of us can cast protection from arrows.
Web, black tentacles, and if all else fails, fireball?
Further, the monk was built such that he can use a qi point to jump to 30 feet (max levitate height) and get in 4 attacks if he hits.
If this is legal I want to know what supplement it's in! A leap is movement and you cannot move and flurry/full attack, by RAW. If he's not getting that leap from a spell or item, then he's cheating outrageously because your maximum leap distance is Acrobatics check/4 in feet. That means he's scoring a 120...
Also, 30' is not maximum levitation height; you can levitate at 30' per round as high as you like.
I smell shinannagans.
Even ignoring the arrows, we simply cannot kill this #$*%ing monk! Base AC 30, ridiculously high fort, will, AND reflex saves. No SR (and only DR/5 fire & cold).
Monks can be hard to kill, but he hasn't killed you yet either. What you will probably find is that his flat-footed AC is rather more hitable. An invisible rogue will do him serious damage. Magic missiles, attacks that bleed his hit points that he doesn't get saves against, that kind of thing will make him a sad monk.
How do you kill a monk like this (other than just fly up and use lots of area effects...)?
I strongly suspect there isn't anything you can do, because I suspect DM fiat will keep this foe alive regardless given that some aspects of this character's performance look rather dubious. Area effects are not a good idea, he has evasion, unless they do not allow a save.
Concentrate on wiping out his cohorts instead, or set a trap for him by getting him to leap on you and pulling the dirty (braced spear & readied action, anybody?).
My GM has created a NPC CR 9 monk that we've been encountering intermediately. Our party has one level 5, two level 6s, and one level 7. 3 casters and a rogue.
Why is everyone a different level? It's hard to run a game like that, let alone play one.
The monk has fought us to a standstill several times (usually because the GM doesn't just send a squad of fodder with him, but a full squad of CR 6+ fighters, all with Quick Draw and light crossbows.
So your party's APL is 6, and he's regularly attacking you with a CR 9-10+ encounter...
All our casters can fly / levitate, but none of us can cast protection from arrows.
Do any of you have spells that alter weather or create concealment or obscure vision completely? You can't shoot something you don't have line of sight to -- something that can be fixed even with a smokestick if you don't have a spell -- and spells like gust of wind and the like can also make ranged attacks go wonky.
Further, the monk was built such that he can use a qi point to jump to 30 feet (max levitate height) and get in 4 attacks if he hits.
Others have pointed it out but I just want to be neat and get this all in one response...
1. Monks can spend a ki point to get a +20 to an Acrobatics check to jump. As others point out, he still needs to beat an impossibly high DC to get to 30 feet.
2. Monks--and anyone else for the most part--can only multi-attack as a full-attack option, which means he cannot have jumped and attacked more than once in the same round. He could only get one hit off if he also jumped (or done any sort of move action), no matter what.
I'll also note he has to LAND after jumping, and if he's not jumping next to a convenient wall where he can use his slow fall ability, then he should be taking falling damage, even if it's mitigated by an Acrobatics check.
3. Levitate has no height restriction, so I do not know where you are getting this from. The range of the spell (25 ft + 5/2 levels, which is 40 feet for a 6th level caster) is how far away the TARGET of the spell can be. You can only move 20 feet per round with levitate but as far as I can tell you can go as high as you like.
Even ignoring the arrows, we simply cannot kill this #$*%ing monk! Base AC 30, ridiculously high fort, will, AND reflex saves. No SR (and only DR/5 fire & cold).How do you kill a monk like this (other than just fly up and use lots of area effects...)?
Well, I'd be less concerned about being able to kill the monk, and more concerned about the facts that
1) Your GM is obviously cheating
2) You and your group are not familiar enough with the rules to realize he is cheating, or to understand how your own spells work
3) Your party needs to work on battle control tactics as well as melee tactics (surrounding, flanking, full attacking).
As well as the likely fact that your GM is going on a power trip about how cool his NPC is than giving you level-appropriate challenges that you can have fun trying to overcome.
I would suggest the following:
1) First, review the rules we discuss as well as the general rules of the game
2) Discuss the cheating issues with your fellow players
3) As a group, confront the GM about the issues with his play style and his unfair way of playing
4) If the GM agrees to design his encounters like a reasonable person, keep talking with your fellow players about how to improve your tactics
or
5) If the GM gets pissy or doesn't change, and is clearly still bending or break rules to make uber NPCs you can't beat and you are not having fun, leave the GM and find one that knows how to play the game, runs the game fairly, and understand that the first and foremost goal of playing RPGs isn't to "win" but for everyone to have fun.
There is no such thing as a GM 'cheating'.
A good GM is expected to follow the rules of the game same as the players, and if he changes the rules, then he tells everyone what the rules changes are. Sure, a GM doesn't HAVE to do that, but no gamer with any self-respect and knowledge of how it feels to have a good, fair game run is going to put up with a GM that changes the rules to his benefit on the fly.
A good GM does not follow one set of rules while the players follow another.
"Cheating" may be technically inaccurate, but basically as the GM is tweaking things for his own benefit at the expense of the players' fun and ability to play effectively, and is being incredibly unfair, "cheating" is certainly at least true to the spirit of what's going on.
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softly. With his song
Call your GM on his b&$%!~*+. A 30 foot high jump is a DC 120. Unless you're using Mythic rules and there's some sort of super jump rules in there that I don't know about, sounds like GM is just making stuff up.
I'd give the GM a bit more respect than that. This monk may have an obscure or homegrown magic item or feat that makes him "bouncier" than most.
I also wouldn't focus too much about the difficulty of the encounters he's sending against you. You haven't been TPKed, so it sounds like he's found the maximum level of encounter that will challenge your characters without slaughtering them. He wants this guy to be a thorn in your side that's virtually impossible to kill off, so you can take even more pride in your accomplishment when you finally toast the guy.
Tactically, I'd go invisible and spam him with summoned critters. A dretch or two is useful for throwing up a stinking cloud to screw up the archers (Don't forget, it's opaque...). Repeated castings of dispel magic should erode the monk's magical defenses (particularly his AC) for a few rounds. Follow that with a summoned celestial lion (if your 7th level PC is a caster) to settle his hash thoroughly. If you can cast suggestion or confusion, you'll find they devastate fighter-types: Cast it after using a terrain control spell to keep them together for maximum mayhem.
Call your GM on his b&$%!~*+. A 30 foot high jump is a DC 120. Unless you're using Mythic rules and there's some sort of super jump rules in there that I don't know about, sounds like GM is just making stuff up.I'd give the GM a bit more respect than that. This monk may have an obscure or homegrown magic item or feat that makes him "bouncier" than most.
I absolutely wouldn't. Blowing a ki point to get a +20 to jump, max ranks 9, class skill 3, let's say dex of 6 because this GM seems to be beyond silly, able to add his class level of 9 to the jump, his speed being 60 ft so that gives him another +12. That's a +59. Rolling a 20 that's a 79. Let's even throw in Skill Focus for another +3. 82 on a roll of 20. So he'd need a magic item that gives him a +20 to acrobatics (something that would cost 40,000gp) and then roll a 20 each time. Assuming he has all of that, you then need to figure out how he's using pounce rules on an attack that is not a charge.
I respect GMs for taking the time to do what they do. I know how time consuming it is, because I've been doing it for the past few years. I have no respect for GMs who do outlandish things like this, and ruin the fun for the players.
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This is true, what I meant was the players don't necessarily know what is on the Monk's sheet. Look at this item:
Shirt, Quick Runner's
Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.
Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Cost 500 gp.
Perhaps the Monk has a more powerful version that gives him an extra move action 10 times/day, as a free action. It's unlikely I'll admit, but if the party have met this monk several times maybe the GM is setting him up as an archvillain for them and has built him to fight their weaknesses.
So let's look at the price of such an item! :) At bare minimum, 10,000 gp.; 10x the price of a Quick Runner's Shirt.
The average gold for a CR 9 NPC is 10,050 gp. If we increase his CR to that of a CR 10 individual, it goes up quite a bit to 62,000, but at that point, our APL 6 party is now fighting a CR+4 encounter without even taking into account the CR 6 'mooks'.
This isn't 1st edition. The GM is expected to follow the same rules as the players, or at least let the players know that he's bending or breaking some. I'm not even going to get into the Acrobatics required to jump 30 ft. into the air, as others are covering that bit of nonsense.
This is an example of GM cheating. The GM might have some good intentions, but being honest with your players is important in this regard.
Sounds like a monk with Mythic Tiers.
To attack at that 30 feet horizontal jump you only need to be 25 feet which is DC of 100. A Mythic Monk can get +80 to Acrobatics and take 20. So that gets you the 100 dc. With Amazing Initiative at tier 3 the monk could use an Mythic power point to take a standard action to jump then use a Full Action to Flurry.
The CR of this Monk would be CR 11 by himself. Add in 6 fighters of CR 6 and that's CR 12 encounter and would be really tough fight for APL 8 party. You party sound to APL 6 maybe 7 if you high stats or greater than normal WBL.
Sounds like this supposed to be reoccurring enemy and not one you are meant to kill at this time.
Suppose
9rank+9class+3class skill+20high jump+10improved Ring of Jumping+5dex+12faster speed+ 3skill focus.
You've got +71. It's not quite the 100 he would need, but I'd not say this is beyond the realm of possibility.
Although, for all this trouble he could probably just buy a handful of potions of fly and easily be able to fly up and attack the caster.
Maybe your GM was just saying he was jumping for flavor. He's probably mistaken about the full attack though.
Suppose
9rank+9class+3class skill+20high jump+10improved Ring of Jumping+5dex+12faster speed+ 3skill focus.
You've got +71. It's not quite the 100 he would need, but I'd not say this is beyond the realm of possibility.
Although, for all this trouble he could probably just buy a handful of potions of fly and easily be able to fly up and attack the caster.
Maybe your GM was just saying he was jumping for flavor. He's probably mistaken about the full attack though.
I got the following
9 ranks, 9 level, 20 Ki point, 12 speed, 20 Display of Dexterity, 24 Impossible Speed, 4 dex, +4 Mythic Acrobatics and Take 20. Thats 2 mythic path, 1 mythic feat and you get DC of 122. That's with no magic items used. Pretty crazy jumping but it is mythic.
Blowing a ki point to get a +20 to jump, max ranks 9, class skill 3, let's say dex of 6 because this GM seems to be beyond silly, able to add his class level of 9 to the jump, his speed being 60 ft so that gives him another +12. That's a +59. Rolling a 20 that's a 79. Let's even throw in Skill Focus for another +3. 82 on a roll of 20. So he'd need a magic item that gives him a +20 to acrobatics (something that would cost 40,000gp) and then roll a 20 each time.
Or, as noted above, he could simply have some sort of flight ability, and be described as 'jumping' for wuxia flavor.
A quickrunner's shirt would allow him to get his full attack in.
How to kill a monk?Try kindness.
With a stick... While he sleeps...
I am sorry but this thread has me rolling laughing
"oh god this monk is unkillable"
the party consisted of 3 casters and a rogue
all of the most viable answers for this encounter count on the face that the rogue not the 3 casters is key for kill the monk
(epic booming voice)
WHERE ARE YOUR GOD WIZARDS AND YOUR TOP TIER CLASSES DO THEY NOT SAVE YOU? DO THEY NOT "WIN" THE GAME? DO YOU SEE HOW THEY FAIL YOU? IS IT BECAUSE NO CLASS CAN STAND ALONE? OR MAYBE BECAUSE ALL CLASSES EXCEL AT WHAT THEY ARE INTEND TO DO? SHOW ME YOUR ALL POWERFUL CLASS AND I WILL SHOW YOU THAT THEY ARE NOTHING WHEN THEY STAND ALONE./end rant
but yes you will have to find a way to take this fight to your advantage much like how you will never win a fight against a dragon outside but in its den you stand a chance and i agree Krodjin you will win when your DM wants you to when it will be most epic
There are a few ways to do it. Beyond the ones presented here (and yes, stirges and magic missiles IS wicked), I see at least one that should be good. Invest in some scrolls of very high level spells that do not allow saves, or summon stuff that eats CR 9 monks for breakfast. Power words are good, as is irresistible dance, or high-end summon monsters. Yes, it will cost you a LOT of money. Yes, it will be dangerous to use scrolls high above your level. In this case, however, I would consider it well worth it. Both these things prove beyond a doubt to the GM that YOU DO NOT LIKE THIS SITUATION.
Since he doesn't have any teleport ability, a very big air elemental should be a fun few rounds for the monk. Air elemental, because it's pretty hard to get away from one.