Neil Spicer RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What happens if the players redeem the corruption forge and then try to rework Soulshear? If it was possible to corrupt a sword like Radiance, does the converse hold where a demon infused weapon can be redeemed?
Here's my two cents...
...I'd say sure. Why not? In essence, you're talking about reworking an intelligent weapon which is infused with the malevolence of a babau demon. I'd imagine step one of the process for converting such a weapon would be 1) redeeming the babau (i.e., we've already seen that a succubus can be redeemed in Arueshalae), or 2) exorcising the demon (which is essentially a situation involving object possession) and then replacing it with a more benevolent outsider.
The final product would flip the weapon into an intelligent +2 transformative glaive infused with the essence of something like a legion or hound archon. It could still maintain the misdirection power to help with infiltrating and putting down demonic cults. And then you might consider upgrading it's summon monster ability to summon monster VI so it can bring forth a legion archon 1/day (which is the power equivalent of a lillend azata). Or, alternatively, you could spin it as summon monster IV and make it a hound archon instead to reflect that the weapon (while converted to good) was somewhat weakened in the process compared to the original Soulshear.
Either way, you'd want to give it a new name, as I don't expect archons would favor calling the weapon Soulshear anymore.
Black Dougal |
I don't know, redeeming another demon in this campaign kind of seems like a stretch and takes away how special of a case Arueshalae is.
Well, I suspect an exoricism of the demon might be a more viable (and quicker) solution in any case. It's not a weapon you want to leave lying around in an armory -- given who its master was a paranoid party (as the paladin in my group is) would take no chances with it and want to purified.
Black Dougal |
I just have to pass this story on. Years ago I was running the Night Below by Carl sargent and the very first encounter is a group of peasants who are actually bandits, but there is no reason to suspect anything is amiss from the opening descriptions. There is no obvious tactical obstacles in place etc.
What does the Paladin do as soon as the farmers greet them with a good day sirs?
"I detect evil!"
Combat ensues..
sigh
Tangent101 |
Actually, BD, my own group immediately figured out the Night Below peasants were bandits. I have no idea why. The second time around I had them attack AFTER they went to Milborne (makes more sense for a thief to scout them out first to see if there are spellcasters in the group) and even so they STILL saw the attack coming.
Then again, one of the party members immediately realized that his drink had been poisoned without even drinking it despite the absolute lack of clues. If I were to guess I'd say I didn't have the best of poker faces back then. These days... I joke I've a great poker face as I'm too lazy to change facial expressions. ;) (More seriously, I did develop a decent poker face apparently. Though that one player still has a 6th sense often enough.)
magnuskn |
A question about the army: Since the Knights of Kenabres have both the Lay on Hands and Channel Energy ability (from a shared pool, though), shouldn't they be able to heal up between battles to full HP? I know that the combat system is abstract, but denying them that makes the whole system seem too removed from actual play mechanics.
Of course, since Lay on Hands/Channel Energy is a limited resource, it should only be available a few times per day, although with the way Channel Energy works, the army could probably do it a lot of times. Can you stack 100 Paladins over each other to Channel Energy the most efficient way? :p
DM Crustypeanut |
Well its also wierd that the paladins can't beat the Mythic Chimera's DR of 5/Epic... what, are they all using daggers with no more than 13 strength? :P Even then, with 100 attacks per round, you would suspect there would be at least 10 crits that beat the DR - resulting in SOME damage per round.
I think it would not be too over-the-top to say that they can heal themselves outside or inside of combat. I suspect that their Lay on Hands ability would be similar to the resource of Potions you can get for your armies, except that it is an ability that is only usable x-times per day, but recharges each day.
Thats how I would roll it, at least. An army of paladins should be quite powerful indeed - completely ignoring their healing ability is kinda.. wierd.
magnuskn |
Well, I fully intend to raise the damage reduction of Soltengrebbe to DR 10/epic, so that the explanation why the army can't beat the mythic chimera makes more sense. Also, I got to deal with 6 player characters, so that additional protection will be very necessary. ^^
But there is no good explanation to be had, aside from the system being "abstract" as to why an army of level four Paladins can't heal itself up out of combat. Sure, some of the damage should be "permanent", as in that members of the army have died during the fights. Additionally, there is wear and tear on the equipment, which further should result in "permanent" damage, which then can be replenished with the additional people and equipment you can pick up during the adventure.
I think the solution would probably be to include a number of times you can use the Channel Energy resource per day, so that while the army may enter combat at full HP, they might run out of that resource before their next combat, especially when the siege of Drezen rolls in.
Neil Spicer RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor |
Designer Notes:
Full disclosure: James had to change the original army during development for a variety of reasons. Originally, I had it as four, separate armies (100-man battalions, basically) which the presumed four PCs in the adventure would get to lead. That way, even during the mass combat situations, every player at the table would have an army-like "character" to run. But that took up too much space (particularly, because there had to be enough Worldwound armies also defined to challenge them). So, these originally individual armies were a lot weaker than a 100-man paladin army. And I'm sure James needed to change them just to ensure better survivability of the PCs' army against the fiends they'd be up against. Also, by keeping it to a smaller army (i.e., 100 men vs. the 400 men spread across the 4 separate armies), it more credibly supported the need to avoid attention as they marched into the Worldwound. Obviously, it also simplifies running the mass combat encounters, saves on word count/space, etc.
So, the discrepancies involving the army not being able to affect Soltengrebbe the mythic chimera (because of its epic DR), owes more to the fact that my original four armies weren't comprised of paladins. Instead, there were 100 dwarven defenders (i.e., heavily armored footsoldiers, not the prestige class), 100 elven rangers (primarily archery focused, but also serving as scouts), 100 mounted Taldan cavalry, and 100 Kenabres footsoldiers. None of these units were capable of bypassing the DR, so it forced the PCs into facing the chimera in order to end that threat so their armies could survive and assault the citadel.
With regards to the paladin army healing between encounters, you could certainly rule that they have the healing potion resource, but keep in mind the "healing" of an army isn't meant to reflect the healing power of lay on hands or channel energy. Damage to an army is meant to reflect the loss of lives, not simply hit points. And the "healing" of an army is meant to be demonstrated through the arrival of reinforcements, new recruits picked up along the way, and so on. Room can likely be made for some healing of an army as the ability to swiftly return individually injured soldiers to full hit points, but unless you've got mass resurrection ability, that can't account for all of an army's healing between battles.
Hope that helps,
--Neil
magnuskn |
Thanks for the info on the original armies, Neil. That kinda leaves again open the question if a Paladin's Smite Evil can bypass DR/Epic. :p
But as to the issue with Channel Energy/Lay on Hands, using it during combat ends in the same result as using it out of combat, only with the element of danger that you could be hit during the turn you took to heal up the army. If the enemy army misses its attack and you restore your armies hitpoints to full, those restored hitpoints do not go away at the end of the fight, so even if we take into account the permanent attrition of mass combat encounters, that is undercut by how the rules work out.
And thus it is another problem with keeping immersion up, which always is a problem when abstract game systems collide with reality. My guys can roll with that, but it takes everyone out of the game when stuff which should be the logical consequence of how the rules work suddenly don't.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Well its also wierd that the paladins can't beat the Mythic Chimera's DR of 5/Epic... what, are they all using daggers with no more than 13 strength? :P Even then, with 100 attacks per round, you would suspect there would be at least 10 crits that beat the DR - resulting in SOME damage per round.
I think it would not be too over-the-top to say that they can heal themselves outside or inside of combat. I suspect that their Lay on Hands ability would be similar to the resource of Potions you can get for your armies, except that it is an ability that is only usable x-times per day, but recharges each day.
Thats how I would roll it, at least. An army of paladins should be quite powerful indeed - completely ignoring their healing ability is kinda.. wierd.
Weird, perhaps. Look at it this way—that's code for "The PCs should fight the mythic chimera themselves—since it's the first mythic foe that they meet, for story purposes it should be THEM who fight it."
Put another way... if the PCs let their army fight and perhaps kill the chimera, they miss out on their first mythic trial and will spend most of the rest of the campaign one tier behind schedule...
Neil Spicer RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor |
...it takes everyone out of the game when stuff which should be the logical consequence of how the rules work suddenly don't.
I've always been of the belief that the rules should never trump the story. If you and/or your players are allowing themselves to be taken out of the game because they're metagaming over epic DR and the supposed ability for a paladin's smite to bypass it, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Don't get me wrong, though. I see your point. I just think all of you (GM and players) need to come to an agreement that there are going to be moments when the rules get set aside in the interests of having a better story play out at the gaming table. And if you're overly concerning yourselves with minutiae of the smite vs. epic DR situation, just elevate it beyond that and say one of the chimera's powers is literally that the only thing that can hurt it is the divine source of the power invested in the mythic PCs. That way, it's not simply their mythic power...but, rather, the specific source of it which is the chimera's weakness. That way, the paladin army can't hurt it. The PCs can. And the encounter still serves its purpose in the story the adventurer is designed to tell.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
DM Crustypeanut |
DM Crustypeanut wrote:Well its also wierd that the paladins can't beat the Mythic Chimera's DR of 5/Epic... what, are they all using daggers with no more than 13 strength? :P Even then, with 100 attacks per round, you would suspect there would be at least 10 crits that beat the DR - resulting in SOME damage per round.
I think it would not be too over-the-top to say that they can heal themselves outside or inside of combat. I suspect that their Lay on Hands ability would be similar to the resource of Potions you can get for your armies, except that it is an ability that is only usable x-times per day, but recharges each day.
Thats how I would roll it, at least. An army of paladins should be quite powerful indeed - completely ignoring their healing ability is kinda.. wierd.
Weird, perhaps. Look at it this way—that's code for "The PCs should fight the mythic chimera themselves—since it's the first mythic foe that they meet, for story purposes it should be THEM who fight it."
Put another way... if the PCs let their army fight and perhaps kill the chimera, they miss out on their first mythic trial and will spend most of the rest of the campaign one tier behind schedule...
Oh definitely, I agree on that part. It would be absolutely no fun at all if the army defeated the Chimera by themselves :D I would have run it that way either way - though my players, as perceptive as they are, would probably have bugged me about it. Might bump it up to DR 10 just because my players have an annoying tendancy to face-rape things.. and I do love the look on their faces when their attacks end up getting weakened due to DR. Makes 'em think strategically beyond "KILL IT WITH FIRE!". Heh
As for the Healing ability.. that also makes sense. While I am sad that I could have commanded an army of 100 Dwarven Defenders (The idea in itself makes me squeal in delight), as-is I fully enjoy it. So.. I'll probably just allow the healing ability 1-2/day, to factor in that the paladins can more easily save their comrades from dying - thanks to their Channel energy ability or whatnot, even if Lay on Hands itself could be deemed too risky to use in a mass-combat situation.
Thanks for the replies, JJ/Neil! Great to see what the thinking behind the development was. I can completely understand why it is as it is with that. :P
Scaevola77 |
I must say, even assuming that the army was always a group of paladins, it is not hard to imagine that the PCs are much better off dealing with the Chimera themselves.
Yes, the paladins can Smite Evil, but if the Chimera attacks after a day of combat, the paladins may have already used their Smites in the battle. Without Smite, they are going to have significant troubles getting through the DR.
Even if they still have their Smites, the Chimera's breath attack does 8d8 damage in a 40' cone, with a save DC high enough to make it difficult for the paladins to succeed on the reflex save. With some good luck for the Chimera, and some pretty bad luck/positioning for the paladins, the Chimera could end up taking out 1/4 of the army on each action. After one full round of combat, he might be able to route the army.
So having the paladin army kill him would be possible, but would result in significant losses. Losses that they really can't afford.
DM Crustypeanut |
Hm... looking in more detail at the Knights of Kenabres.. They already do have the Channel Energy and Lay on Hands abilities. Why did I not notice these? XD They can heal themselves!
When I read Magnuskn's earlier message, I figured he meant the individual paladins had those abilities.. not the army itself.
I derped. Don't mind me. I tend to derp alot. I appologize then for my previous derping to JJ and Neil. XD
..Derpity derp.
magnuskn |
I've always been of the belief that the rules should never trump the story. If you and/or your players are allowing themselves to be taken out of the game because they're metagaming over epic DR and the supposed ability for a paladin's smite to bypass it, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Don't get me wrong, though. I see your point. I just think all of you (GM and players) need to come to an agreement that there are going to be moments when the rules get set aside in the interests of having a better story play out at the gaming table. And if you're overly concerning yourselves with minutiae of the smite vs. epic DR situation, just elevate it beyond that and say one of the chimera's powers is literally that the only thing that can hurt it is the divine source of the power invested in the mythic PCs. That way, it's not simply their mythic power...but, rather, the specific source of it which is the chimera's weakness. That way, the paladin army can't hurt it. The PCs can. And the encounter still serves its purpose in the story the adventurer is designed to tell.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
I definitely see your point there. I'll deal with it with my players and explain to them that the rules may disengage from logic a bit in that respect and that they should just deal with it this time. After all, making it too easy for them isn't really the point here, either. :)
UllarWarlord Contributor |
Aleron |
Huh. Has anyone run their party through the Gibbering Swarm yet? Mine are going to reach it today I'm 99% sure. Maybe it is just my party, but this looks to be absolutely brutal. Each of them is immune to weapon damage and resistant to a couple elements on top of that. Does a paladin's smite let them get through immunity to a damage? I wouldn't have thought so but...
How are they supposed to handle this or am I missing something?
My party consists of a summoner, cleric (admittedly he can channel against evil outsiders), paladin, and monk.
Also for my reference, is there a way to remove madness/insanity from someone? Looks like it might be coming up shortly heh.
Aldarionn |
@Aleron
My players are also coming up on the Gibbering Swarm in our next session, and there are a few things I would like some input on.
The party is as follows:
Human Paladin of Protection - He does not worship any particular god, but pays homage to Toreg, Iomedae, Sarenrae and Abadar. He is built for defense with a Sacred Shield ACF and advancing down the Guardian path.
Aasimar Bard of Sarenrae (Lawful neutral) - He is a melee heavy hitter, though the class breakdown is a little odd. Basically took the Dawnflower Dervish ACF and is going into Dragon Disciple with Champion Tiers. He wields a Polearm in combat.
Elf Wizard - This one is super optimized for battlefield control. He pumped his initiative bonus to a +15 at 1st level (+4 Improved Initiative, +2 Reactionary trait, +4 Scorpion Familiar, +3 Dex, +2 Racial from Fleet Footed alternate race trait), and his spell selection includes Grease, Create Pit, Glitterdust, Color Spray, and spells along those lines as he is progressing. Almost no damage dealing ability at all, but an effective combatant in that he almost always goes first and prevents enemies from acting. That said, with Archmage as his mythic path, he does have the ability to cast any spell on the wizard list by spending mythic power.
Half Orc Ninja - A ranged build, and the least optimized character. His path is Trickster, and he basically shoots arrows at things. Doesn't do much else.
Due to the builds the party has chosen they are extremely effective against demons, but they lack any real ability to do damage to swarms, especially ones with spell resistance, and especially when their arcane caster has no damage spells known and can only cast them with Mythic Power. Basically, they don't have any real way of fighting through even the small number of Vescavore Swarms they run up against in the Gibbering Swarm.
Fortunately a few good Knowledge checks have alerted them to the particular level of danger they will be facing in the area ahead, and this has had the party looking for a way out. They refuse to believe that their only way forward is through the swarm.....and I cannot really blame them. The module does not do a good job of laying out the surrounding terrain except to briefly outline some of the environmental effects that can pose a threat, and as such my descriptions have been somewhat vague.
From what I can tell, by the time they approach the Gibbering Swarm, the party and their army should be traveling through what amounts to a deep and treacherous ravine with 120 foot walls, making it impossible for the army to just scale the cliffs and maneuver around the swarm without backtracking a significant distance. At what point did they enter this ravine? Was it all the way back at the point where they turned off the river bank at Keeper's Canyon? The location and description of The Lost Chapel seem to support this, as they have to scale a 90 foot wall in order to reach it, but the dotted white line on the map makes it very hard to tell if they are supposed to be traveling IN the ravine if they follow the directions of the queen (which they did).
Was there anything preventing them from crossing the ravine at Keepers Canyon and following it along the northern face of the bluffs? This would have allowed them to still encounter the Chapel, but bypass the Gibbering Swarm on their way to Drezen, which is presumably not built inside the ravine for obvious reasons. The general description says the land rises out of the Ahari Gorge as they move past the swarm, so I am assuming they can't just walk around it.
The party has basically said they want to look for a way to get the army around the swarm instead of fighting it, because they cannot actually kill the creatures inside. I agree with them - an attempt would likely be suicide. All of their damage comes from weapon damage, which the swarms are immune to, and they have a limited number of AOE damage abilities which the swarms are resistant to, and at some point the swarms will be enveloping them dealing constant damage every round while driving them insane, breaking their equipment, and reducing the effectiveness of AOE spells by increasing the risk of hitting the party.
I guess my questions boil down to the following:
1 - Are the PC's assumed to be in a ravine where the only way forward is through the swarm?
2 - If yes, how far would their army need to backtrack to get out of the ravine, and is there a way for them to get to Drezen by taking a longer route around the ravine?
3 - If they must fight the swarms, what are some suggestions for how to run the encounter in such a way that it doesn't end with a party wipe, or a bunch of broken equipment and pissed off party members?
4 - If they take the longer route, what sort of encounters would you have them face along the way to offer up as significant a challenge as the Gibbering Swarm, but one that a party is able to overcome.
Thanks in advance, and sorry for the wordy post.
Aleron |
Okay for your questions...
1 - Yes, that is my understanding.
2 - Hm. I suspect a long, long trip. Assuming there is a way up. I think that chapel is only part of the way up if I read it right. If not...the chapel was a 1/3rd of a day back. Going around seems like cheating though...and you could be exposing the army to the worldwound itself which has worse monsters and environmental effects in it I would say. If you have Worldwound book it has some great examples.
3 - My party just finished this and actually kicked its butt. I'll detail what they did below...
4 - I'd look up the Worldwound book and include some random terrain effects from that and other wandering demons probably.
Anyway, the part made it through the gibbering swarm today. I decided to just let them at it and see what they do.
Summary of important points:
- Before encountering the swarm that day they caught Nurah destroying some of their food stores and apprehended her that evening. The paladin offered her mercy and some awesome RP lead her back onto the path of light. They had apprehended some of her supplies (the important one being her scroll of Dimension Door).
- The party then traveled to the gibbering the next day. The scouts returned and reported the cloud thing. Between Aron and two good knowledge planes checks they figured out what they were and the fact there was Queen in there.
- I basically sat back while the party talked it over for the better part of an hour.
- They eventually sent in the two sneakiest characters in the party (one the monk, the other the summoner's eidolon under an unfetter spell). They moved through the swarms invisible and undetected until they found the Queen.
- Using bond senses the summoner determined the area, moved the rest of the loud clanky party (cleric and paladin) into range and used the dimension door scroll to land right on top of the queen and engage with all their buffs up.
- The Queen got one turn to start summoning some swarms and spew acid on the paladin before they killed her. As per the module the rest of the swarms began to disperse and the party was cheering.
- Next round they noticed the glowing portal and closed it with the dimension lock scroll they found at the library in Kenabres.
I was floored they had turned it into a cakewalk. More-so if you consider these players have been playing Pathfinder (make that any tabletop rpg) for only a year or so now.
Anyway, they recognized the swarms would wreck them and planned accordingly. Incredibly proud of them and impressed.
Their army also has started to storm Drezen and defeated all four armies and the Berbalang the first day. They are having a blast!
Brainiac |
Also, control spells such as Wall of X(Ice, Iron, Stone) and Windwall will wreck the swarms as well. It may turn into a dungeon lock down while they beat up the Queen.
This. My party called for a rest upon encountering the swarm so that they could prepare accordingly. The wizard used invisibility sphere to ferry the party past the swarms undetected, then the magus and cleric used web and wind wall spells to block off the tunnels to the queen's chamber before attacking her directly. Without the swarms backing her up, she went down in two rounds.
Lochar |
And honestly, if the party has zero ways of dealing with the swarm let them bypass it by heading around it.
That just leaves it in place and growing bigger and bigger. By Book 3's start, advance the Queen a few more HD(or a mythic simple template) along with more swarms.
And the party gets a runner that the group Galfrey is sending to Drezen can't make it through at all, even using the party's bypass, because of it. Now the PCs having had a few extra levels and tiers should have a way to deal with the bigger swarms.
Aldarionn |
@ Lochar - I had considered that. If they bypass it they will not just have it go away.
If they decide to tackle it, they may surprise me. I'm actually not sure what all the Wizard has in his spellbook. If he has a wall of X spell they might just be able to bypass the smaller swarms and strike at the queen directly. That would certainly be ideal. Wall of Stone is a 5th level spell though, and I know they don't have a scroll. Wind Wall might work....
Lochar |
Depends if the Wizard has Archmage and the ability to cast any spell using mythic power (Don't remember the name off hand).
Honestly, while Wind Wall is only rounds/level, it's a third level wizard spell. Build a nice big wall around the starting swarms and run through. Even if more start piling in having a few to cast will stop them from bothering the party long enough to kill the queen. If they make the roll to know that'll fix the issue.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Tempestorm |
Thought I would ask this here to try to elicit some feedback.
How is everyone handling the mass combat in Sword of Valor?
With 5 players and only one army of 100 Paladins, how do you involve everyone?
I am currently thinking of turning the 100 Paladin army into two armies of 50 each and adding two armies of 50 Cavlaiers and one army of 50 Crusader Clerics. This would give each of my players an army to control.
This would of course mean beefing up the enemy defenses...
Any input on how others are handling this would be appreciated.
Lochar |
Thought I would ask this here to try to elicit some feedback.
How is everyone handling the mass combat in Sword of Valor?
With 5 players and only one army of 100 Paladins, how do you involve everyone?
I am currently thinking of turning the 100 Paladin army into two armies of 50 each and adding two armies of 50 Cavlaiers and one army of 50 Crusader Clerics. This would give each of my players an army to control.
This would of course mean beefing up the enemy defenses...
Any input on how others are handling this would be appreciated.
Haven't gotten there myself yet with the party, but I've been doing some test rolls. The first few combats can be over in a single round with zero damage to the player army.
I'm likely to have the players elect someone as the commander, then round robin who gets to roll for the attack and pick the tactics for the round.
Aldarionn |
Yes, he has Wild Arcana. It will let him cast whatever spell he wants up to a number of times per day equal to his mythic power, but it will not allow him to cast spells above the level he is able to cast normally. IE, a 5th level spell like Wall of Stone is out.
Wall of Ice is 4th level and beyond his ability as well (the party is still level 6/tier 1). Wind Wall would be the way to go, if not exactly ideal. It would last for 6 rounds unless he can extend the duration somehow.
That's fine though, all he has to do is get them past the first couple of swarms so they can rush right to the queen, then put up a wall at the entrance to her room and maintain it every 6 rounds. That should keep the swarms from easily getting to them.
All of this of course could be moot if they find a way to sneak past the swarms in the first place. Invisibility Sphere seems a good option, or something similar.
Dealing with the queen is of course another matter entirely. She is a dangerous opponent with some nasty abilities. That fight could go sour quickly if she manages to confuse them or drive them mad too quickly.
DM Crustypeanut |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's worth noting... that in an AP where the demon lord in charge is, among other things, the demon lord of infestations...
...a party that has no way to deal with swarms is going to be increasingly distressed.
I know my players are always prepared for this kind of thing - they keep bottles of alchemist's fire around like its going out of style. They hate swarms. And love fire, as it would be.
You have no idea how many times they have set things on fire.
Aldarionn |
Well that went well enough I suppose. The party used Invisibility Sphere and Feather Fall to get down into the cave, then sent the Ninja ahead to scout. Unfortunately the a ninja ran headlong into the queen and failed several saves against confusion, then proceeded to get wrecked. The party heard the sounds of combat with some nice perception checks and made an attempt to scurry to the rescue while avoiding swarms, but they were too late. The queen shredded the poor Ninja.
With the unpleasant party death out of the way they managed to put down the queen while wallling themselves off from attacking swarms with Wind Wall, then dealt with the Vrock and the portal in short order. They also discoverd Nura as a traitor after she attempted to spoil some of their food stores and surprisingly enough they were able to convince her to undertake the difficult journey to redemption. Her information has proved valuable this far and has served as a penance to see her on her way to the light.
Now the next challenge. How do I insert a replacement for a fallen character into a Mythic campaign? This seems easy on the surface, but it's really not. The party gained mythic power from a shared moment of ascension and it took the destruction of the ward stone network and the partial intervention of a deity to awaken their power. How do I explain how some guy they are going to meet in the Worldwound has mythic abilities? Where in the area surrounding Drezen would make sense to insert a Mythic character? I'd rather not have the player sit out a session while the party gets to the Citadel, but I thought it might be cool to have such a Mythic replacement character be stored in a cell somewhere awaiting corruption at the hands of Staunton Vhane. But that would have him twiddling his thumbs for the entire taking-the-city leg of the Drezen encounter.
Any thoughts?
magnuskn |
Well, the Highlander routine works well enough, IMO. The player had mythic power, that mythic power went somewhere, i.e. into another suitable person nearby whom was not mythic at the time. Have the party find someone nearby, held by demons or with an otherwise good explanation why he was alone in the Worldwound.
Loudly yelling "THE QUICKENING!" is optional.
Black Dougal |
Well, the Highlander routine works well enough, IMO. The player had mythic power, that mythic power went somewhere, i.e. into another suitable person nearby whom was not mythic at the time. Have the party find someone nearby, held by demons or with an otherwise good explanation why he was alone in the Worldwound.
Loudly yelling "THE QUICKENING!" is optional.
or how about "There can be more than one!"
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Tempestorm |
Tempestorm wrote:Thought I would ask this here to try to elicit some feedback.
How is everyone handling the mass combat in Sword of Valor?
With 5 players and only one army of 100 Paladins, how do you involve everyone?
I am currently thinking of turning the 100 Paladin army into two armies of 50 each and adding two armies of 50 Cavlaiers and one army of 50 Crusader Clerics. This would give each of my players an army to control.
This would of course mean beefing up the enemy defenses...
Any input on how others are handling this would be appreciated.
Haven't gotten there myself yet with the party, but I've been doing some test rolls. The first few combats can be over in a single round with zero damage to the player army.
I'm likely to have the players elect someone as the commander, then round robin who gets to roll for the attack and pick the tactics for the round.
No one else has any insight on how they have or intend to have the entire party be involved with only one army?
Aleron |
These fights usually are over extremely fast. Until one certain battle against the schir army my party literally ended the rest in the first or second round at latest. For the longer one (bad rolls, took around 10 or so rounds), they each took turns rolling the dice and worked together decided tactics and whatnot. I recommend that, but if they have brought most of their npcs along they will likely stomp the other armies HARD.
Aleron |
Long post with spoilers incoming. Basic party info:
Corliss, Tiefling Paladin of Ragathiel (Champion)
Mattias, Aasimar Cleric of Vildeis (Guardian/Hierophant)
Msimangu, Dhampir Monk of Korada (Trickster)
Samael, Aasimar Summoner of Ragathiel (Archmage/Hierophant)
So the party continued their foray into Drezen today. Well more like blitzkrieg, but I digress. They pushed on to the bridge which looked like it was going to be a joke.
The monk did try sneak ahead and get some info. Cleverly he tried to pick the locks on the chains holding some of the aurochs, but gave up quickly when he realized they had caught onto his scent and looked hungry. To his credit he did pick one of them and it threw the enemies into disarray for a bit to get it chained back up (and killed one of the tieflings).
They attacked shortly after with Sosiel and Aron amongst them. The first round the summoned dretch hit them with a stinking cloud (taking the summoner and eidolon out of the fight for 2/3 rounds). Rest made the saves. Then I had Barrid start tossing fireballs, leading to Sosiel dropping once but the cleric moving to help him out quickly while the rest took cover.
It was back and forth for awhile till the eidolon and paladin closed with Barrid and the most of the tieflings were dead. Barrid went into flee mode and called the Aurochs to pull. On the first round two aurochs rolled 18 and 19 on the strength checks, taking out two of the support pillars. A 50/50 chance of the bridge collapsing...and it didn't, lucky for them.
The flying eidolon caught up to Barrid and grappled him at this point. Barrid knew the bridge was going down so he drew his dimension door wand and fled with it. The party was super steamed, but they'll see him again inside the citadel I decided. How...I'm not sure yet. He definitely failed and I think it might work well to show how ruthless the demons are.
Anyway, he escaped and the paladin ran to the eidolon and grabbed hold. Everyone else was fairly near the edge of the bridge and got off. The remaining three tieflings ran but weren't quite. The aurochs went again and another rolled an 18 and took out another pillar. This time the bridge collapsed. The paladin held onto the flying eidolon which helped her. Sosiel and Aron caught the edge of the bridge collapsing and were buried (and dug up the next turn). The tieflings all failed their saves and were crushed (and killed by the damage).
While they dug out Sosiel, Mattias the cleric healed everyone there up. The paladin was ticked Barrid got away so went down with the eidolon and began to slaughter the aurochs below.
At this point I called for perception checks and the monk noticed the divebombing chimera, Soltengrebbe, coming for them. He got into the way to block it from the hurt members, but only managed to get a good portion of the party at the end of the bridge caught in the breath weapon.
I won't say it was an easy or hard fight for them. Definitely not as challenging as I hoped, but the chimera did manage a double bite on the monk and nearly dropped him (one more claw or gore would have, he used mythic dodge to avoid those ones though). Once the paladin and eidolon got up to the fight he went down within two rounds to smites more or less. The rest did have some trouble damaging him with the epic damage reduction. He was having some trouble hitting due to unlucky rolls on my part unfortunately (and rather high ACs for most of the party).
They did manage to cross the army quickly using some clever thinking and summoning. They used earth elementals to burrow out a smooth path for the horses and army to cross. Still took them half a day but saved them a lot of time otherwise.
They did have some comments on it:
- First was that they wish they could have handled it in another way. They didn't like marching onto the bridge. I largely admit this was mostly my fault, but they wanted to march their army to the edge and shoot the aurochs until they died. Even when I pointed out Barrid likely would have tried to collapse the bridge out of spite if they tried this (hard to hide an entire army marching toward him), they didn't buy it. Additionally that the aurochs all had reduction and the arrows wouldn't have had as much effect as they were thinking. Corliss (paladin) was especially unsatisfied by that part. Not sure how I should have done this better. Maybe let them use the army to remove the aurochs (over so many rounds), but also reduce the exp heavily since they're removing the challenge? Hm. Would be happy for suggestions here.
- They felt Soltengrebbe deserved more buildup as their first mythic foe. They did think he was pretty awesome in the battle, especially with the dual initiative going for him. Part of this was not giving me the chance as in the course of the day they had been tackling every battle in the city quickly and efficiently (they freed the captured army, attacked the barracks to outfit the new army, attacked the ghoul armies, then attacked to vault and defeated the Berbalang on the first day of arriving). Something other groups might want to consider. Have captured enemies or notes or even the captured crusaders give hints about the terrifying chimera that flies about.
We also did the watchtowers (I had the party split up and lead their npc allies to assault them all at once). Made it a bit more challenging than it would have been and avoided rerunning the same battle essentially 4 times in a row.
They did the last mass combat with their two armies and nearly lost the mercenary one. They won, but that army was at one hit point and suffered some heavy losses. The paladin army (which they have taken to calling the "Wings of Light") emerged unscathed as usual.
All for now. Next week they attack the citadel itself!
Lochar |
Honestly, it actually says if the army marches on the main castle using the bridge before the party takes it, the bridge is destroyed routing the army.
So an immediate command to kill the bridge is no where near outside the realm of possibility.
As for the watch towers, the brimoraks have teleportation. Splitting up was a good idea, because what normally happens is one brimorak throws up a fireball as warning, and the others teleport in.