Is Soltengrebbe an outsider for the purposes of favored enemy and smite functions because of the demon descriptor?
p. 31 SoV - "CE Large magical beast (demon, mythic)"
p. 311 Bestiary "Demon Subtype: Demons are chaotic evil outsiders that call the Abyss their home."
My personal take would be, "No."
Soltengrebbe drank the purple Kool-Aid and became mythic. Making that turn him into an outsider makes him way too easy to deal with.But I agree; I'd love to know what the "demon" means...
If this has been asked and answered, I apologize, but is there not a serious disconnect in how the Sword of Valor is described relative to where it is indicated that it was originally stored?
"Mounted firmly upon an interior wall in a visible public place, the Sword creates a 10 mile radius area that bars demons and those who worship demons from using teleportation spells...." (p.63 SoV)
However, p. 36 "This room once housed the Sword of Valor, but the artifact is not here now -" but that room is a "secret vault" behind two secret doors.
That does not seem like a "public place" to me.
Or am I missing something?
I noticed the same thing. I made my PCs hang it in the main chapel.
I was actually wondering where it was hung historically because it seems like it would not have worked back in the day if it was in the secret vault.
It can easily be fixed by changing it to "Mounted firmly upon an interior wall of a visible public place…" So an interior wall of, say, a castle.
I mean, it affects a 10 mile area. I don't see why the flag has to be visible to everyone all the time. The building it is placed in is enough.
EDIT: In fact, if it was not able to placed in a secret vault, I'd imagine cultists would have stolen it away long before Staunton came along.
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my players just finished most of the citadel. we have a few rooms left.I am trying to prep for the boss fight and find my self at a problem. they got high on knowledge and with the books know they will fight a mythic shadow demon. did antone have players survive this after getting possessed ? this fight seems to scream to easy or too hard based on protection from evil working or not.
my players just finished most of the citadel. we have a few rooms left.I am trying to prep for the boss fight and find my self at a problem. they got high on knowledge and with the books know they will fight a mythic shadow demon. did antone have players survive this after getting possessed ? this fight seems to scream to easy or too hard based on protection from evil working or not.
Our group had Protection from Evil and Daylight going, so yeah, it was waaaaaaay too easy.
On the other hand, my group finds it extremely satisfying to find themselves well-prepared and turn a boss battle into a walkover.
How would your group feel if the fight was too easy? If they'd be unhappy, give him some Dispel Magics to get rid of those pesky buffs. If they'd enjoy it, just roll with it and get used to it -- mythic PCs have a tendency to steamroll fights you think should be harder than they turn out to be.
EDIT: And for goshs' sake Dispel that Daylight first. PCs who can see have a tendency to be unpleasant to bad guys...
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the protect evil is easy with using the popular rebuild. Im just wondering if should. How can a party beat him if he is using there bodies to kill them off? But if dont posses one of them and they do have PfE up, than battle will be one sided I think. My question is, can a party win if one gets possessed?
Well, don't miss the end of the spell description for Magic Jar:
Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host's location.
Since it's only a 3x/day ability, it'll be a battle between Dispel Magic and Magic Jar, and if there's a cleric in the party, Dispel Evil is an auto-success on a touch attack as well...
I'll be interested in hearing from people who actually played out that fight, though...
The adventure does want your PCs to know what they're fighting. Its set up that way. My PCs made all of their saves as well, even the fighter who rolled 18s plus each and every time to make it. So even at worst the demon may never possess anyone.
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Have decided to go with the "Time Is On My side, Yes It Is" scene. They are planning on resting before finishing. Figure that since they own the upstairs and most of the dungeon than will hold a meeting to discuss what to do next. Have always played ghosts and shadow demons with the understanding they must be next to victim to enter them. than read demons revisited and the feat that lets you see your victims. Than others have mistakenly thought must use a gem. So will allow him to do it both ways. during the meeting, they will be visited by a shadow demon that will hop around between bodies and taunting them. some summons to scare them and back to his hole in the ground. After that if they beat him easily than thats Ok cause I think they will be real scared.
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Well, don't miss the end of the spell description for Magic Jar:
Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host's location.
Since it's only a 3x/day ability, it'll be a battle between Dispel Magic and Magic Jar, and if there's a cleric in the party, Dispel Evil is an auto-success on a touch attack as well...
I'll be interested in hearing from people who actually played out that fight, though...
Interestingly, magic jar is neither enchantment nor evil. So you can't dispel evil a Magic Jar'd Shadow demon, because you can't touch the demon either.
Third, with a touch you can automatically dispel any one enchantment spell cast by an evil creature or any one evil spell
Well, don't miss the end of the spell description for Magic Jar:
Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host's location.
Since it's only a 3x/day ability, it'll be a battle between Dispel Magic and Magic Jar, and if there's a cleric in the party, Dispel Evil is an auto-success on a touch attack as well...
I'll be interested in hearing from people who actually played out that fight, though...
Interestingly, magic jar is neither enchantment nor evil. So you can't dispel evil a Magic Jar'd Shadow demon, because you can't touch the demon either.
Third, with a touch you can automatically dispel any one enchantment spell cast by an evil creature or any one evil spell
Wow... "any one enchantment spell cast by an evil creature".
You're right; Magic Jar is Necromancy.
As for the touch, you're trying to dispel the spell on a possessed character, not the incorporeal shadow demon.
So yeah, doesn't work because it's not an enchantment. I'll still argue touch wouldn't be a problem... other than your 'friend' trying to hack you to pieces while you're doing it...
Im not sure if Im reading something incorrectly but... when it comes to first telekinesis trap of room G12, does it not need to roll 28 on d20 to bullrush creature with CMD score of 0 to the pit? So is there any point in it exept to warn party of, hey, there might be more traps here?
Im not sure if Im reading something incorrectly but... when it comes to first telekinesis trap of room G12, does it not need to roll 28 on d20 to bullrush creature with CMD score of 0 to the pit? So is there any point in it exept to warn party of, hey, there might be more traps here?
Not sure about your math. The trap should have a +11 bull rush which isn't great but does move someone 5 feet. Don't remember how far away the traps are from the pit.
Or use the shadow demon's much higher telekinesis to throw PCs into the slime.
Seannoss is almost right; I just opened the book and found:
A five-foot ledge runs the length of this circular pit. A second
elevated ledge stands above the ledge with a short series of
steps rising to a small platform ahead of it.
From the picture, the upper ledge is 5' in, so the first trap would have to exceed the PC's CMD by 5 (off the top ledge and then another 5' off the bottom ledge). With a CMB of +12, the first trap is probably far more of a warning.
The second trap is on the lower ledge, and only needs to hit the PC's CMD.
So let's take Staunton Vhane, since he's a tough little bugger. His CMD is 23 (27 vs. bull rush and trip).
The first trap would need a natural 20 to reach the 32 necessary to drop him into the pit. (CMD = 27 + 5 to go the extra 5' = 32)
The second trap would only need a 15. (CMD = 27)
Does that clarify things?
(I have no idea where you're getting the 40 from. The traps push perpendicularly to the path, not along it.)
I counted bit wrong, its 30 not 40
First trap, that is on the hallway south of the pit, beyond the doors, if character steps on the square next to the wall, the trap would need to push him 7 squares and through the door in order for him/her to drop or if character steps on the square closer to the pit its only 6 squares.
My horrible little drawing below
P= Pit squares
T= Trap squares
x=empty square
PP 7
xx 6
xx 5
Door between squares
xx 4
xx 3
xx 2
TT 1
TT
Sorry Nobody but my rules lawyeriness is raised, why a +12? Isnt it +9 to be a 9th lvl caster to cast the spell, and +2 for the min attribute to cast the spell?
Ironlemon: I do not remember a TK spell as a trap on the door but I am away from my books. I do seem to recall something odd about the entrance though.
@Seannoss the trap is not on the doors but on the area indicated by the map, the T on the map is placed over 4 squares as i did on my crude little drawing...
@NobodysHome its not the first or second trap Im talking about, its the 3rd one that I'm talking about
I counted bit wrong, its 30 not 40
First trap, that is on the hallway south of the pit, beyond the doors, if character steps on the square next to the wall, the trap would need to push him 7 squares and through the door in order for him/her to drop or if character steps on the square closer to the pit its only 6 squares.
My horrible little drawing below
P= Pit squares
T= Trap squares
x=empty squarePP 7
xx 6
xx 5
Door between squares
xx 4
xx 3
xx 2
TT 1
TT
Wow! You're right! The book even lists, "Telekinesis traps (3)".
That first trap is utterly useless! I hadn't even seen it! Probably a typo on the map or something!I'd just omit it.
Sorry Nobody but my rules lawyeriness is raised, why a +12? Isnt it +9 to be a 9th lvl caster to cast the spell, and +2 for the min attribute to cast the spell?
Ironlemon: I do not remember a TK spell as a trap on the door but I am away from my books. I do seem to recall something odd about the entrance though.
The book lists the trap as CMB +12, so I just took it at that. One of those, "We're not using dead minimum stats, but we won't mention that," things we're all so fond of...
Oh.... lol. That would make complete sense then. I was just going off of the spell as I'm at work.
Oh.... lol. That would make complete sense then. I was just going off of the spell as I'm at work.
PDFs, my friend, PDFs.
I'm at work *and* referencing WotR books! :-P
Alright then. I've been wondering the thing for a while now, glad to see it wasn't me that was derping then, that 1st trap is completely pointless ^^
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could you not use the traps in a sort of chain? Or to keep the PCs with lower CMD out of said room?
Would be frustrating for a PC who just can't seem to get past without aid or a crafty rogue disarming said trap.
*edit*
I see it says reset none, but really it is a magic trap and as a GM you only get so much fun messing with the PCs, I would allow it to reset at least once, all of them.
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If it helps, the original setup for the traps in chamber G12 were:
HARPOON TRAPS (3) CR 3
XP 600
Type mechanical; Perception DC 20; Disable Device DC 20
EFFECTS
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk two +10 melee touch attacks (1d8/x3 plus grapple) followed by +12 CMB pull maneuver (with additional +2 bonus if both harpoons hit)
The room's description included three trigger "zones" which fired dual harpoons from a demonic statue's outstretched arms at those on the ledge. If struck by these touch attacks, the victim would be considered grappled and then counterweights would drop from the statue, pulling on chains connected to the harpoons to literally drag people off the ledge and into the pit. So, it wasn't relying on a telekinesis bull rush.
@Neil Spicer I agree fully with Lochar here. That is way better and smarter than what it is in AP. I don't get why they changed it so much. I'll be running the room the way you wrote it so thanks for sharing how you wanted it to be originally ^^
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Well, don't miss the end of the spell description for Magic Jar:
Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host's location.
Since it's only a 3x/day ability, it'll be a battle between Dispel Magic and Magic Jar, and if there's a cleric in the party, Dispel Evil is an auto-success on a touch attack as well...
I'll be interested in hearing from people who actually played out that fight, though...
Interestingly, magic jar is neither enchantment nor evil. So you can't dispel evil a Magic Jar'd Shadow demon, because you can't touch the demon either.
Third, with a touch you can automatically dispel any one enchantment spell cast by an evil creature or any one evil spellWow... "any one enchantment spell cast by an evil creature".
You're right; Magic Jar is Necromancy.
As for the touch, you're trying to dispel the spell on a possessed character, not the incorporeal shadow demon.
So yeah, doesn't work because it's not an enchantment. I'll still argue touch wouldn't be a problem... other than your 'friend' trying to hack you to pieces while you're doing it...
Had to look up some stuff. Dispel evil wont work because no 9th level cleric. Think it may work because of the "Any Evil Spell". Dont think hold Peron would work either, since it is a demon mind controlling the body. Only way I can think of is if they grapple, but that only means the demon changes bodies.
Another oddity. Staunton's companion is listed as a fiendish giant wasp and is used in the backstory to make a dramatic escape from Irabeth. However, Staunton has a -5 fly check (no ranks, no dex, and armor check penalty) and only a +4 ride check.
I understand not loading him up on the mounted combat feats, but perhaps a fiendish bear, boar or dire wolf would have been a better fit. Even a fiendish lion...
I doubt I will change it, but it is jumping out at me as odd.
A rider on a flying creature makes Ride checks to guide it; it is up to the flying creature to make Fly checks. It is much as if you were riding a dolphin, you would not be the one making the Swim checks.
Having only a +4 to Ride means Staunton is not likely to fight on his mount, but it does mean he can never fail the important (especially when on a flying mount) Stay in Saddle check.
Plus, the fiendish giant wasp is a more appropriate mount for a follower of Deskari. It's a thematic, flavor-based design choice as opposed to the most optimized combat option for him.
Thats okay. Vahne also has a craft feat without any way of actually using it.
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We did not finish after all. Who ever recommended using the conjured shadow demon- IT was a GREAT Idea. They fell for it and set off the trap and it let me see how they would do. The concentration check to cast a spell was really killing them today. Saw a lot of 2's rolled. 2 people in spiked pits, slowed them down as well. Made a mistake and forgot about the needing line of effect to posses someone. Had 3 of them possessed after they killed the summoned shadow demon. It hopped from one to the other singing and than went away. Also sent small waves of shadows at them and killed the cohort cleric. I have seven players with 2 cohorts, in which they are usually all there and i think I may still kill several against the mythic shadow demon. I was nice and let them sleep another night before going back down stairs. This let E gather some allies and prepare for them. They just killed the 2 demons. I have the barbarian being possessed and waiting for them. we shall see in two how this goes.
Arguably just a rules question, but since this goes with the demon at the end, I will throw it in here.
Shadow Evocation versus an unconscious foe. Do they need to make the will save, or since they cannot perceive the spell/spell effects, they just take the 20%?
Example. Foe is unconscious and stable at -6. Shadow evocation Dragon Breath for 10d6. Normally: Will save 22 to disbelieve, Reflex save DC 22 to avoid (either the full effect or the 20% effect).
We just wrapped our first session of this book on Saturday, and everything went great! I recall seeing some people mention (perhaps in another thread) that the Desecrated Chapel was a bit of a push over, but for my group, at least so far, it has been anything but.
One thing I did with the gargoyle encounter that ended up being rather fun was, running them as opportunistic grapplers that attempted to push the PCs off the cliff.
While this will likely sound scary to any group, the threat isn't all that huge. My group all had 50+ HP, and it's only a 90' cliff, so they should be able to shrug off that 9d6 damage.
And while the gargoyles didn't succeed, it led to a rather memorable combat that I don't think my players will soon forget.
Arguably just a rules question, but since this goes with the demon at the end, I will throw it in here.
Shadow Evocation versus an unconscious foe. Do they need to make the will save, or since they cannot perceive the spell/spell effects, they just take the 20%?
Example. Foe is unconscious and stable at -6. Shadow evocation Dragon Breath for 10d6. Normally: Will save 22 to disbelieve, Reflex save DC 22 to avoid (either the full effect or the 20% effect).
I believe that by RAW, unconscious characters still get their saves, so it would be a Will save or full damage.
In terms of "what makes sense", I would do as you say; treat the unconscious character as an object. The spell description states that objects automatically succeed in their will saves. So 20%, as you say.
We just wrapped our first session of this book on Saturday, and everything went great! I recall seeing some people mention (perhaps in another thread) that the Desecrated Chapel was a bit of a push over, but for my group, at least so far, it has been anything but.
One thing I did with the gargoyle encounter that ended up being rather fun was, running them as opportunistic grapplers that attempted to push the PCs off the cliff.
While this will likely sound scary to any group, the threat isn't all that huge. My group all had 50+ HP, and it's only a 90' cliff, so they should be able to shrug off that 9d6 damage.
And while the gargoyles didn't succeed, it led to a rather memorable combat that I don't think my players will soon forget.
If you're reading my campaign thread, the group didn't have trouble in the Desecrated Chapel *until* the final encounter, which was a very, very close thing for them.
I love the idea of gargoyles-as-grapplers. If I run fiendish gargoyles later I'm definitely using that!
We just wrapped our first session of this book on Saturday, and everything went great! I recall seeing some people mention (perhaps in another thread) that the Desecrated Chapel was a bit of a push over, but for my group, at least so far, it has been anything but.
One thing I did with the gargoyle encounter that ended up being rather fun was, running them as opportunistic grapplers that attempted to push the PCs off the cliff.
While this will likely sound scary to any group, the threat isn't all that huge. My group all had 50+ HP, and it's only a 90' cliff, so they should be able to shrug off that 9d6 damage.
And while the gargoyles didn't succeed, it led to a rather memorable combat that I don't think my players will soon forget.
If you're reading my campaign thread, the group didn't have trouble in the Desecrated Chapel *until* the final encounter, which was a very, very close thing for them.
I love the idea of gargoyles-as-grapplers. If I run fiendish gargoyles later I'm definitely using that!
I have seen your thread! I rather enjoy your journals (and they're mostly the reason I come back to this corner of the message board). And I'm glad you like that idea!
As for my group, they don't have the system mastery that I think most of the groups on here do. I've mentioned the composition elsewhere, but for easy reference I have (all at 15 point buy, 1 campaign trait):
Tiefling Rogue Trickster
Dwarven Cleric of Torag Guardian
Gnome Summoner Archmage/Guardian
Half-Elf Barbarian Champion
So they're having a more difficult time, but they're still really enjoying themselves! We stopped after the second encounter (spent a lot of time roleplaying Galfrey and Arles so that ate up much of the session in a good way).
The Barbarian sounded his Horn of Battle Clarity during the fight with the Gargoyles, which alerted the clerics in the next room. I had them stealth + detect thoughts through the stained glass windows and they were able to prepare based on what they gathered from that. And while the ghouls (clerics included) were mostly pushovers they bought enough time for the Babaus to flank the Cleric and the Rogue, the Cleric is at 1 HP, and the Rogue at -3. The group has ample healing available, but they've burned a lot of mythic points already (they spent a few during a roleplaying encounter with Arles, and few more during these two encounters). I'm a bit worried about the final encounter honestly.
Arguably just a rules question, but since this goes with the demon at the end, I will throw it in here.
Shadow Evocation versus an unconscious foe. Do they need to make the will save, or since they cannot perceive the spell/spell effects, they just take the 20%?
Example. Foe is unconscious and stable at -6. Shadow evocation Dragon Breath for 10d6. Normally: Will save 22 to disbelieve, Reflex save DC 22 to avoid (either the full effect or the 20% effect).
I believe that by RAW, unconscious characters still get their saves, so it would be a Will save or full damage.
In terms of "what makes sense", I would do as you say; treat the unconscious character as an object. The spell description states that objects automatically succeed in their will saves. So 20%, as you say.
Incorrect, unconscious characters are considered helpless and 'willing' for the purpose of spells.
Otherwise, you would be unable to teleport an unconscious player because they cannot differentiate between enemies and allies.
Witch Sleep Hex + Teleport is a very nasty combo to abduct people as a GM. Though the Sleep Hex + anything is a nasty combo.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
See? All you have to do is post something wrong and someone'll cite the proper rule!
Thanks, Tels!
We just finished up our second session of Sword of Valor, and I've got to say the last half of that Desecrated Chapel was tough.
Nulkineth's encounter was really rough for them. I really only had a few adjustments from the way the encounter was written.
-Ilzek from the Chapel room managed to escape to here, and as he did so Nulkineth gave him his Wand of Hold Person. I think he used it 4 or 5 times on the Barbarian, but it was never successful. The most important contribution he had to this encounter was being a flanking buddy for Nulkineth.
-I also had the protection judgement up rather than destruction or whatever it was they suggested.
-Lastly I used the inquisitors ability to swap out a teamwork feat as a standard action for Pack Attack, which was rather useful as well.
Nulkineth opened with an Unholy Blight which put them on the defensive. Especially when saving against that Hold Person wand, and the paralyze from the ghouls. I had Nulkineth Smite and Bane the Barbarian, so he was hitting for a lot. In fact, I knocked out the cleric twice who had Shield Other up on the Barbarian.
Magula afterwards was just down right nasty. I had him teleport into the courtyard screaming for Nulkineth to share his catch. The party goofed and made too much noise, alerting Magula to their whereabouts. He teleported in with Deeper Darkness up, then Held half of the party with Mass Hold Person.
I actually would've had a TPK on my hands, but we forgot to apply a non-proficiency penalty for the Rogue who was using Irabeth's sword since the Barbarian was out of the fight. (Only know because we went back and played out what would've happened.) Since I didn't catch it until after we'd wrapped up the game, I let it stand, and I'm really glad we missed that.
Looking ahead and comparing those encounters to these, I'm getting worried that they may just be too tough.
I increased that fight slightly and it was difficult. Book 2 actually had a few challenging fights in it for my PCs. At this level mythic heroes aren't fully there yet.
Soltengrebbe can be a very tough fight, my group was reeling the entire time. And the shock of dual initiative is one that I'll never forget. But when your PCs get the hang of their mythic powers I'd bet that the combats get easier. Its easier to assume that they'll find a way around a combat, or out of one or just win... after another tier and level or two.
Oh I fully expect them to be much more powerful at tier 3, I've been reading ahead and I guess I'll figure out what to do when we get there.
This book though? Seems to be chock full of challenging encounters. Especially the one you mention, and I'm quite excited for it!
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I think this book had the most challenging encounters in it. A lot of fun ones too. Only the mass combat stuff brings it down but that's easily modifiable.
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So as I look more into the final fight of this book I realized that EUSTOYRIAX is a one trick pony and if he can't do his one trick he is kinda pointless as a guardian of the Sword of Valor.
Can anyone give some pointers on how to make him effective?
Will his body not just be sitting there floating in Limbo as he is trying to possess people?
As for his body, he's incorporeal, so he can store it inside a wall within 5' of its edge and then gallivant around in whatever body he gets.
It's a bit thick but I started this thread on Daylight and magical darkness interactions.
While you might not agree, I do think it's perfectly reasonable to rule that Daylight brought into his Deeper Darkness is negated, but that the Deeper Darkness isn't negated. Not sure where you stand on that one, but it is something to consider.
I can't recall the rest of the encounter off the top of my head though, I'll have to look over it later.
Daylight is higher-level than Deeper Darkness, but remember that the prevailing lighting condition in that area is total darkness, so the party had better have Darkvision.
They're actually both level 3, but it is good knowing that the light condition in the area is total darkness. Thanks for pointing that out! I probably would've missed that.
I would think that the two spells would cancel each other out. And since the PCs found their way to that room, odds are they already have a light source.
Yes, he is very much a one trick pony and his trick is easily countered. If you have access to demons revisited, it had shadow demon feats that help counter and get past protection.
For my PCs it was a very long, drawn out fight but they weren't ever severely challenged. Of course, it helped that the fighter rolled the two needed 18s to make his will saves.