Hey magnus, champions won't worry about spending power for move actions. Between Fleet of Foot and Impossible speed, you'll see full attacks and 50-60' worth of movement every round from them.
I'm likely going to be adding a tier of champion to Staunton to do that, actually.
Hmmm, that's a good idea.
@Aldarionn: That's a tough one. You see, the Devil didn't get told to do anything specifically evil. It was using one Evil Outsider to spy on a camp of another group of evil outsiders... and due to it being in competition with that second group (Law vs. Chaos, they both want to corrupt humanity but disagree on how to do so) it is less likely to betray them to the demons.
If I were roleplaying the Paladin, I'd have him keep an eye on the wizard and be concerned for his soul. Consorting with evil outsiders could be one step on a slippery slope after all. I might even urge him to consider asking archons and the like to do the scouting. (And this could lead to an interesting point - if the devil had been killed, it would have been the lessening of another evil, while if an archon was slain it would be the diminishing of good itself.)
But seeing that the Wizard isn't pinging as evil and didn't have the devil do anything evil? No. I'd not have a serious conflict involved.
The Wizard certainly did not act out of character. He is true neutral so is likely to look to a number of sources for solutions to his problems. He obviously saw a potential conflict with the Paladin so chose to do his scouting when the Paladin was otherwise leading troops, but when the plan went a little pear-shaped he forgot to give the Devil specific instructions to wait for him at another location. I don't question the Wizards motive, or whether his actions are outside of alignment. I just wonder if the Paladin is going to see it differently.
That's really up to the player running the Paladin. I just gave my perspective on how he might react.
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If by viable you mean characters doing 50-60 damage per swing at 6th level, then yes. That isn't a campaign I wished to run.50-60 damage sounds unlikely, even with Vital Strike. You'd have to show me the math behind that. Although I can see how a Barbarian or Fighter might be able to do that when getting his full attack, our Barbarian regularly does dish out 16-24 damage per hit at level four.
Really? how come?
The barbarian PC in my campaign easily reaches much more than 24 damage per attack... she has a +1 flaming great axe, making for a 1d12 + 1d6 +1 damage, and when you calculate in her 18 strength power attack, that's another staggering +18. And all of this is before I calculate the Enlarge Person she usually has every single fight, which makes her deal 4d6 + 20 in total... nasty business when combined with Haste. Can make for about 100 damage per round.
The level four Barbarian has a flaming +1 greataxe at level 4? How did s/he get her/his hand on that? It's not official loot and the first book doesn't even give you vendors which sell so expensive loot. Or at which level are you talking? What you are recounting does not look like a Barbarian at level four.
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Hmmm, that's a good idea.Hey magnus, champions won't worry about spending power for move actions. Between Fleet of Foot and Impossible speed, you'll see full attacks and 50-60' worth of movement every round from them.
I'm likely going to be adding a tier of champion to Staunton to do that, actually.
I reworked Staunton, giving him 2 additional champion tiers (CR 11), so all the enemies in the adventure get the same amount of mythic power. It makes sense to me since all those tiers came from the same source.
His champion's strike is still sudden attack. For path abilites, I gave him ever ready (very good when you have a reach weapon), impossible speed, fleet warrior and precision (can make his two attacks at full BaB). Using mythic power attack, he gets good damage and can ignore the penalty to attack rolls if he wishes to.
The initiative modifier went from a +2 to +12 (amazing initiative, Mythic improved initiative), giving him more chances to act before the players. If he spends one use of mythic power, he gets a 32 for initiative.
I also changed his fiendish boon to weapon, since his mount doesn't even show up in the adventure. With a +2 modifier, you can add the keen or unholy properties to Soulshear; or improve the enhancement bonus.
If you want to re-introduce the mount, just use the awesome warmonger wasp (the worldwound sourcebook). If you apply the advanced or agile mythic template, it can substitute the two half-fiend minotaur guards (same CR). It can be a gift from Xanthir Vang, foreshadowing his presence in the next adventure.
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The level four Barbarian has a flaming +1 greataxe at level 4? How did s/he get her/his hand on that? It's not official loot and the first book doesn't even give you vendors which sell so expensive loot. Or at which level are you talking? What you are recounting does not look like a Barbarian at level four.
Ah, yes, that's my mistake. I'm talking about a 7th level barbarian, and the gap should indeed be huge.
Hmmm, that's a good idea.Hey magnus, champions won't worry about spending power for move actions. Between Fleet of Foot and Impossible speed, you'll see full attacks and 50-60' worth of movement every round from them.
I'm likely going to be adding a tier of champion to Staunton to do that, actually.
I reworked Staunton, giving him 2 additional champion tiers (CR 11), so all the enemies in the adventure get the same amount of mythic power. It makes sense to me since all those tiers came from the same source.
His champion's strike is still sudden attack. For path abilites, I gave him ever ready (very good when you have a reach weapon), impossible speed, fleet warrior and precision (can make his two attacks at full BaB). Using mythic power attack, he gets good damage and can ignore the penalty to attack rolls if he wishes to.
The initiative modifier went from a +2 to +12 (amazing initiative, Mythic improved initiative), giving him more chances to act before the players. If he spends one use of mythic power, he gets a 32 for initiative.
I also changed his fiendish boon to weapon, since his mount doesn't even show up in the adventure. With a +2 modifier, you can add the keen or unholy properties to Soulshear; or improve the enhancement bonus.
If you want to re-introduce the mount, just use the awesome warmonger wasp (the worldwound sourcebook). If you apply the advanced or agile mythic template, it can substitute the two half-fiend minotaur guards (same CR). It can be a gift from Xanthir Vang, foreshadowing his presence in the next adventure.
Any chance of posting his final stat block after your revisions? They sound good, and you have done very well so far with the changes I've seen in other threads. I would definitely like to use your revised version. If you can't post them here would you be able to e-mail/share them with me?
No problem Aldarionn, I'll be happy to share my work.
I just sent you a PM.
The level four Barbarian has a flaming +1 greataxe at level 4? How did s/he get her/his hand on that? It's not official loot and the first book doesn't even give you vendors which sell so expensive loot. Or at which level are you talking? What you are recounting does not look like a Barbarian at level four.Ah, yes, that's my mistake. I'm talking about a 7th level barbarian, and the gap should indeed be huge.
Seventh level (and tier two I think?) is of course a whole other game. :)
Alright so it's been awhile since we played, mostly scheduling causing some issues. That said, we got a good, long session in yesterday. Time for sharing some feedback and experiences.
The party is:
Corliss, Tiefling champion paladin of Ragathiel
Mattias, Aasimar guardian/hierophant cleric of Vildeis
Msimangu, Damphir trickster (talented) monk of Korada
Samael, Aasimar archmage/hierophant summoner of Ragathiel
I want to cover the citadel so far and offer some thoughts. For reference, they have been attacking the citadel for two sessions by the end of yesterday.
The first session they planned their assault with the help of the map that Aron made them. They brought both Nurah (who is working on redemption) and Irabeth with them. In addition, the monk has the leadership feat with one of the mongrelfolk rangers as his cohort.
As they hate front doors, they decided to make an assault on one of the ballista overhangs using a combination of flight and a couple other effects. So they arrive on the south western pad...which was a good choice since it was unmanned at the moment due to Jestak killing all the tiefling siege operators per the module. Anyway, they are surprised and confused by this but chalk it up to good luck.
Then they try to enter the keep to discover none of them have a high enough disable check to get the doors open. They opt to smash it in, which let's Jestak know they are coming.
I'll pause here to point out Jestak is mean and strong. She's a solidly built barbarian and when they breached the last door she had an action ready to charge with rage on and nearly ended their eidolon in the round of attacks. The party put her down (unconcious) and managed to convince her to join them.
From here they move up to the chapel area with the four crusaders and the succubus (name I can't recall off hand). I'll summarize but this turns into a long drawn out fight. The crusaders they manage to knock unconcious/dispell their enchantments without killing them. The vrock in the next room does notice what is going on and joins the fight (but not before calling for backup with another vrock through his summon ability). He uses telepathy to call for aid from the half fiend minotaurs to the north and sends one to get the brimorak around the place to teleport in soon as possible. In addition, I had Barrid Isen (who survived at the bridge) join the fight when the vrocks moved in.
This fight really pushed them. After the vrock joined it took a couple more rounds for the minotaurs (and brimorak) to join in. Each character used 3 to 5 mythic points during the fight and some powerful spells and abilities. The cleric had to go into overdrive healing a few rounds once the brimorak arrived and began dropping fireballs and breath weapons. Irabeth dropped once and nearly died to the area of effect spells, but Corliss spent a hero point to protect her. Barrid dropping ranged fireballs and stuff also made for a hectic fight.
I was happy with how this went. They emerged but were battered and weakened pretty badly. They were down on resources, but being the heroes they were they pushed on.
*edit* Forgot to note that Nurah left at this point to escort the rescued crusaders back to camp.
Their next stop was where the Sword used to be hidden. The mimics attacked and again damaged the eidolon some, but the party overcame them pretty quickly otherwise. Due to Jestak's knowledge they had a pretty good idea on how to get toward Staunton's chambers and were making a beeline for it.
The next encounter was the graven guardians which went pretty fast and without much damage on them. Didn't use many resources here either. The brimorak on the east side had teleported to the other fight so they didn't run into them.
They bumped into Kirana (might be spelling this a little wrong) as Maranse and fell for the ruse. Several players were talking out of character about taking him as a cohort eventually because of how cool he was. He showed off a lot as they headed north and fought against the four Thoxels. The party took them down pretty fast again though Irabeth almost got dominated by a couple hits.
Then they came to the chamber with Staunton's brother and the babau. The babau heard them coming and all tried summoning (one success). Joran buffed. The party was aware Joran was considering surrendering and were convinced they had to try redeem him.
The fight went...well at first. The babau kept moving into flanks and getting sneak attacks and Joran had them worried a few times by stunning a few of them and almost permanently blinding the summoner (he used a hero point to reroll the save and made it). As it got on further and further, despite having low resources they were kicking butt. After the third babau dropped, I had the half fiend minotaurs with Staunton burst in and join the fight (and a round after this the Nabasu from the southern rooms teleported in behind the party). Staunton joined the fight the round after that and taking the time to cast some spells.
I wanted this to be epic but it fell pretty flat. Outside the Nabasu draining some levels and giving them some worries, Staunton himself was pretty ineffective (a large part due to bad rolls). Irabeth tried to fight him but got hindered by Joran and the remaining critters. It came down to Staunton giving the monk some punishment before ending up in a showdown with Corliss, the paladin. Corliss had buffed with mythic protection from evil before this fight I'll add. She was rocking a 36 AC vs Staunton once she smited him. Kirana betrayed the party at this point and while they were worried, even with her moving in on Corliss to give Staunton a flank...it was pretty disappointing. Neither could hit Corliss very easily due to the smite.
Staunton landed a total of one hit on her over the 2 rounds he once up against her. His AC was so low she pretty much butchered him very quickly (even with 4 negative levels on her from the nabasu). Joran gave up on the second last round (having taken the damage mentioned in his entry). When Staunton dropped there was cheers, but they did say they were disappointed he wasn't more powerful.
If I was to rerun it I would probably buff Staunton quite a bit through more mythic levels or antipaladin levels and include some more enemies in that encounter. The minotaurs only landed the occasional hit sadly and mostly just got in everyone's way. It feels like another Vrock or something might have worked better.
The party is on their way out now to rest and I suspect Eustoriax (again, probably spelled wrong) is going to mess with them a little on the way out with some summoned shadows/shadow demon. That's where we left off anyway. Party is only a couple thousand from level 9.
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I've run the Staunton Vhane fight with two different groups, each one having vastly different experiences. The first group of four PCs went up against Staunton, Joran, the babaus and the minotaurs all at once. They were fully rested and had all their abilities available. The dual-wielding paladin dropped Staunton in one round with a hasted full attack of smites, while a well-placed black tentacles crippled his minions.
The second groups of six PCs plus Irabeth approached the fight at about half strength after several previous battles. I had the thoxels join the same group of enemies as above, and Nurah had escaped and was providing bardic support while invisible. This fight lasted about 12 or 13 rounds, with the guardian paladin tanking Staunton for six rounds while the rest of the party dealt with the various underlings. Staunton got some good hits in, dealing almost half the paladin's HP with each blow and requiring the party's mystic theurge to spend most of his time healing the paladin. By the end of the fight, the party rogue, alchemist, and wizard had each gone down at least once and everybody had used all of their mythic power and almost all of their spell slots and other resources.
Tl;DR: The fight can vary wildly from a pushover to an epic slugfest depending on your party composition, dice rolls, and how prepared they are. YMMV.
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Hmm.
Standard Chimera feats:
Hover, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Perception), Toughness
Soltengrebbe's feats:
Ability Focus (mythic breath), Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative(M), Iron Will, Vital Strike(M), Weapon Focus (bite)
So, they swapped Hover for Ability Focus, Skill Focus for Improved Crit, and Toughness for Vital Strike. Two Mythic Feats to get Init and Vital Strike.
Not seeing where Weapon Focus(Bite) got picked up, though he could use it. Probably a bonus feat.
However, I can't actually see a point where he'd EVER use Vital Strike. He doesn't have flyby attack and with his abilities a full round attack will do silly amounts of more damage just by the pluses alone.
I'd be more inclined to give him back Toughness and get Mythic Toughness instead.
But meh, I'm going to run him straight to see how well he works out.
Soltengrebbe has one bonus feat, according to James Jacobs. I asked him that same question on this thread.
I advanced Soltengrebbe a few hit dice so he is CR 10 (APL+3 fight), got an ability score increase and another feat. Mythic power attack is pretty good for him, with so many attacks per turn.
I got rid of coordinated bites and added an ability to roll twice the will saves. Coordinated bites doesn't do much IMHO when you are fighting the front liners, wich usually have the same number in regular AC and flat-footed AC because of low dexterity.
His other abilites got improved, so he has better action economy.
Originally, I threw the giant simple template on him, as well, and used the baseline chimera's Hover, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Perception), and Toughness feats. Then, I included Snatch and the mythic version of the Toughness feat on top of it. Basically, I envisioned Soltengrebbe as this dragon-sized chimera with three heads of mythic devastation. So, adjusting him to present an epic encounter challenge for your playgroup is entirely appropriate. James actually did that with some of the cooler mythic special abilities he used over what I wrote. So, keeping in line with that, you guys are on the right track for making it memorable for your players.
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I'm going to get rid of the mass combat parts as I don't think it adds anything to the adventure. I'll keep the army as story background as there are a lot of potential corruption and hopelessness storylines there.
But, as written, what would happen if the army did get defeated? The final mass combat within the Drezen gates looks very challenging and losing the army is a real possibility, if not sooner. It wouldn't take much of a roll for a dretch army to destroy them.
I'm going to get rid of the mass combat parts as I don't think it adds anything to the adventure. I'll keep the army as story background as there are a lot of potential corruption and hopelessness storylines there.
But, as written, what would happen if the army did get defeated? The final mass combat within the Drezen gates looks very challenging and losing the army is a real possibility, if not sooner. It wouldn't take much of a roll for a dretch army to destroy them.
I actually had this thought as well, and came up with the idea that perhaps the PC's are captured and taken to the prisoners camp with the army of Schirs. From there, one of their NPC allies might have escaped, and could stage a rescue where the PC's rally the prisoners to fight off captivity, and gain a new army in the process. If that's the case you probably want to bump up the power of the army they rally, or you may have issues with them being able to defeat the Schirs.
The other option could be that they are ultimately taken into Citadel Drezen to be corrupted/turned, and they escape from an empty room where they are being held. They won't get the XP for having defeated the stuff outside so it will be an uphill battle, but it still gets them into the citadel and gives them a chance to salvage the situation and "cut the head off the snake" so to speak. They will run into a lot more resistance that way though, considering all of the siege engineers won't be dead, and many of the enemies they should have faced outside might be housed inside as well.
Sounds like you'd be railroading them pretty hard and would definitely defeat the whole, "You're mythic and powerful theme". I mean, you're not even giving them the chance to be heroes and on top of that you just slaughtered their army. If I was one of the players, I'd hate that just because you didn't want to run some quick mass army combats.
Sounds like you'd be railroading them pretty hard and would definitely defeat the whole, "You're mythic and powerful theme". I mean, you're not even giving them the chance to be heroes and on top of that you just slaughtered their army. If I was one of the players, I'd hate that just because you didn't want to run some quick mass army combats.
I think you are being a bit harsh. Seannoss simply said she would remove the mass combat from the adventure, which means she could just be narrating the battles instead of rolling for them. The second part of that post mentioned the death of the army, but did not indicate that was what she planned to do. She is very correct though. Army combat is swingy, and a very high roll for one of the enemy armies could cripple or destroy the army of Paladins if they choose the wrong tactic.
I think you made a bit of an assumption there instead of actually reading the post.
True, this is more of a what if scenario.
I believe that the only purpose for the army is RP and story. That the best possible result of including it is neutral, ie: the army wins. I feel that it is much more likely that the army gets defeated at some point. Then the PCs have to sneak or fight past hundreds of creatures?
Not so likely, even if they are epic.
What I may do when I run WotR is craft an encounter of suitable difficulty for the party, composed of the creatures they fight (and maybe the opposing army's general). Then I describe the fight between the armies as akin to the actual fight between the PCs and their foes.
Though that might be difficult to pull off seeing that I'm not sure how to determine the CR of an Army, especially when it may have several advantages due to NPCs joining them. But I can always just wing it. ^^;;
Pardon, I misread what they were intending then. The way I understood they were just going to let the schir win and capture the PCs which seemed...well as I mentioned above. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
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Alright, got through Soltengrabbe last night, plus feedback about the mass combat.
First, the party
Fighter/Sorc/Eldritch Knight Archmage
Rogue/Sorc going into Arcane Trickster / Trickster
Cleric Heirophant
Paladin Guardian
The Soltengrabbe fight happened as the Ahari bridge fight was finishing up, so the party was somewhat split with part of the party down in the gorge killing the aurochs. Bridge never fell.
So, Soltengrabbe shows up in the middle of initiative. I put him at the middle and end of initiative for his dual initiative.
Party, having easily blown through the bridge combat (using Archmage to grab Glitterdust and the enemy has to make two will saves is hilarious), thinks they've got this.
Soltengrabbe breathes. Rogue makes his save, evasion. Cleric and Knight do not. Cleric has in excess of 80 HP due to Exposed to Awfulness. I rolled low.
I get ouches from the table.
Party, not quite realizing what they're facing, continue to kill aurochs.
Cleric heals himself. Trickster hits Soltengrabbe with Ray of Enfeeblement (remember this, it's important!)
I full round the cleric, dropping him into negatives with good rolls. Since Soltengrabbe counts as a demon, he uses his trait to heal and stay standing.
The party pauses. "Wait, he went again!?" Insert cackling.
Paladin tries and fails to climb back up the embankment.
Knight drops a rope to help the Paladin up.
Soltengrabbe full rounds the cleric again. Miss by a couple on all but one. Everyone is now suddenly really grateful to the Trickster for the Ray of Enfeeblement.
Party manages to get back on the bank, Trickster Vanishes.
Soltengrabbe, seeing a nice metal chewtoy, starts on the Paladin as per his tactics. Between his deflection from Smite and lowered Str, Soltengrabbe is only hitting 1 or 2 of every full round.
Casually, I tell the Trickster it's been four rounds. "I already broke my Vanish."
"Oh no. You do realize Ray of Enfeeblement only lasts rounds/level, right? Your CL for Sorcerer is 6, right?"
Cue panic.
One round later, the Paladinn pulls out a natural 20 but doesn't confirm. This is the perfect point to burn off some mythic energy to confirm, which he does. 70 points of damage and Soltengrabbe dies.
"You see the body convulse. All the wounds seem to migrate to the goat head as Soltengrabbe makes a mythic effort. The goat head dies off, but the body seems fairly hale."
HP reset to 2/3rds max.
Party then proceeds to throw absolutely everything they've got at Soltengrabbe. Sadly, at the point of negative HPs again Soltengrabbe was out of Mythic power to pull the trick off again.
End result, no one dead but the party definitely woken up from the ease of their general combats.
I think I've stated before that this party has little care for their NPCs. Their loss, since they didn't bring everyone with them and only Aron scouted. So they didn't get the watch towers.
The Knights of Kenebras at this point have one less OM due to the party discovering the bard trashing supplies and she ran away. Aron is in the final throws of his shadowblood addiction and all the clues I've thrown at the party don't help. He even gave them the Drezen map ahead of the battle with badly shaking hands. When pointed out, I had him drink his last vial of blood in front of them. Both detect magics didn't hit the DC to discover what the reddish-black liquid was and they accepted at face value that it was a calming draught.
Anyways, the mass combat.
As the final defenders of Drezen, the Tiefling army and cultist army take standard for their combat track. However, they whip the dretch army into a frenzy.
Based on the bonuses from the basic defenses and the watch tower, the dretches have a DV of 12 and OM of +14(!) ranged. Going aggressive, the Dretches have a DV of 8 and OM of +18, with 6 damage.
The dretches slaughtered the paladins in ranged combat, but thankfully so did the paladins back. The rescued army ended up dying, and I pitted the party against the tiefling army leader Vrock. They managed it and got past the armies by decapitating the army heads.
tl;dr: Epic fight against Soltengrabbe, and mass combat is battle of the glass cannons.
I agree about the mass combat. Using d20 rolls and having damage be the difference between OM and DV means damage is swingy as hell. An army that goes all-out offense can slaughter an army that doesn't go full defensive if they roll a decently high number. The closer the OM of the enemy army to the DV of the PC's army of Paladins, the more chance there is for a catastrophe, and unfortunately the module just seems to assume the PC's win every combat without being destroyed. If it weren't for Spellbreaker an army of Dretches would have wiped out my party a couple sessions ago. It was THAT close.
I think the idea is nice, but the combat rules are not good. More consistent damage would be a better way to handle it, like giving each army a damage value with a bonus to OM and possibly damage for their selection on the combat track.
Perhaps if an army did dX damage (with X being the damage die type of their standard weapon) +1 for each size category larger than the defending army they are? Then add to that -3/-2/-1/+0/+1/+2/+3 damage for adjusting themselves on the combat track. That would keep damage numbers more reasonable if the army hits, and ensure a single attack doesn't totally wipe out an enemy unless they are a total mis-match.
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I've been having to adapt the entire books for my groups (I'm running Wrath for two different groups, it's fun to compare/contrast them). Both groups clock in at 7 players, one in each plays by video chat. Among the changes, made I started by giving them a second army (50 mongrelmen rangers) that both parties really dig, as they both spent some time with the mongrelmen in module 1. I've also had to add more armies for the enemies as a consequence. Having 7 players meant that putting that many armies on the field would have been a very different game. But still, I kinda wish I would have at this point. I did give all the PC's special traits to grant the army like the listed NPC's, so that everyone can feel a little involved at least.
The other thing I've been doing is playing fast and loose with the rules as I power up encounters. Sometimes it's just adding more cannon fodder. That's an easy fix, even if it makes encounters go much longer, sometimes good, sometimes not so much. I've been liberally handing out swift action ranged attacks (with a cool down), and bonus feating whirlwind attack in right and left. So far it's been working okay.
Also for my groups, I'm not handing out XP any more, as that would be a pain to kajigger with the changes I'm making, I just hand out levels where the module says they should come in. And I would like to thank the developers for that handy chart, it's made my life as a DM for these games SO much better.
I totally feel the pain of my brother and sister DM's with big groups, and trying make encounters work. I've been doing it by being liberal with the rules, and having groups that are really understanding about that. Next week both groups are going to be confronting the chimera, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes just in general. I'm prepping my changes to him now. Giant? I like that! But my focus has got to be spreading damage around to a group, so I need to build along those lines, but it's been great seeing other people's idea's for powering up.
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I scrapped the XP thing as well and have instead been handing out levels where the module says to level up. It's working very well so far and I don't have to worry about throwing in a few extra trash mobs here and there for action economy.
For your problem with the Chimera spreading out damage, perhaps give it some kind of Voltron-style ability where it can split into its individual pieces, then re-combine toward the end of the encounter. Maybe it even attacks the players separated, with a Dragon swooping in to breathe on them while a Lion pounces out of some scrub brush and a massive Mountain Ram leaps over a rock to slam into someone. As they fight it becomes increasingly obvious that they are working together, and at the end they Voltron into a Chimera and gain some new abilities like the coordinated attacks thing, and maybe some other stuff as well.
Might be a lot of work to design, but could be fun and interesting.
The only thing I keep an eye on experience for is if the party misses something, like if they skip the chapel or something like that it would put them well behind, but otherwise it's more of a "see how it's going" than a "count the numbers exactly" thing
What I may do when I run WotR is craft an encounter of suitable difficulty for the party, composed of the creatures they fight (and maybe the opposing army's general). Then I describe the fight between the armies as akin to the actual fight between the PCs and their foes.
Though that might be difficult to pull off seeing that I'm not sure how to determine the CR of an Army, especially when it may have several advantages due to NPCs joining them. But I can always just wing it. ^^;;
Tangent, I would use the troop subtype found in
With this, you can take any lesser CR creature and turn them into a CR worthy of fighting for the group. The rules for it are pretty easy, so creating them is worth it. I did this for my group using hobgoblins when I introduced Red Hand of Doom into my Kingmaker AP. It works very well.
Just a thought.
Has Brandon revealed the building rules for troops? The ones from the adventure the troop sub-type stemmed from were not all that helpful in building custom troops, IMO.
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I haven't used the Troop rules yet, but I'm aware of them. I've thought about bringing them in but I don't know if it will be a thing this game. Maybe if one of the parties armies get taken out, I'll bunch the enemy armies into troops and make them WORK for it! That could be fun, and incredibly epic, actually.
I've been wondering what others have done with the army once you arrive in Drezen? Do you keep the Army outside the city? Do you camp in one of the areas after defeating the other armies?
Keep in mind...that the third adventure works on the assumption that the army successfully captures Drezen and you have enough men to rebuild/refortify the city. If you have the players army wiped out, you might need more substantial revisions to the 3rd AP.
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Keep in mind...that the third adventure works on the assumption that the army successfully captures Drezen and you have enough men to rebuild/refortify the city. If you have the players army wiped out, you might need more substantial revisions to the 3rd AP.
Galfrey sends more personnel to Drezen at the beginning of Book 3, including the NPCs if you ignored them in Book 2. It wouldn't be hard to just add another hundred paladins or other troops in with it.
I am going to replace the mass combat and distill the encounters into fights with the PCs versus leadership retinue of the enemy armies with a random events type table to still keep the tinge of the organized chaos of mass battles. So, friendly and not so friendly conditions can occur during the encounter such as temporary reinforcements etc. I hope it brings a sense of ebb and flow to it. Haven't decided to do it as a random even table or something else. Mass combat just seems to take the focus away from the PCs.
Question: Do the Knights of Kenabres get to learn new tactics after a victory against an enemy army?
If yes, what is their Will save modifier with which they roll against the appropiate Will save DC?
Anybody?
Question: Do the Knights of Kenabres get to learn new tactics after a victory against an enemy army?
If yes, what is their Will save modifier with which they roll against the appropiate Will save DC?
That's a good questions. I guess you could use the commander's will save. If you want to use the Paladin's will save it should not be hard. They likely either have Wisdom 8, 10 or 12 depending on how they were built, though you could use Irabeth as a template. From there, add their Charisma (probably a 14) and you should be pretty close. I wouldn't count magical gear or anything.
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Has Brandon revealed the building rules for troops? The ones from the adventure the troop sub-type stemmed from were not all that helpful in building custom troops, IMO.Not that I know of but would make a good monster template I think
Those rules have not been revealed nor built upon beyond what was printed in Pathfinder #71. Also, it wouldn't make a good temple, just like the swarm subtype doesn't make a good template. The best way to build other troops is the same method for building new swarms. Build them like new monsters. Sorry, but that's the best I can give you at this point.
That's a good questions. I guess you could use the commander's will save. If you want to use the Paladin's will save it should not be hard. They likely either have Wisdom 8, 10 or 12 depending on how they were built, though you could use Irabeth as a template. From there, add their Charisma (probably a 14) and you should be pretty close. I wouldn't count magical gear or anything.Question: Do the Knights of Kenabres get to learn new tactics after a victory against an enemy army?
If yes, what is their Will save modifier with which they roll against the appropiate Will save DC?
So far I figured that one would use the Morale modifier of the army, but maybe the commanders Will save also would be applicable. Maybe James or Adam could help?
Well for me having to go through a lot of easy encounters (no only those inside the citadel) is a waste of time. I prefer to have less encounters, but more challenging.
In previous APs I have axed many encounters and where possible I have added them together into a more fluid encounter environment.
Take the Lost Chapel en route to Drezen.... instead of having lots of small encounters, which as noted for a 6th level mythic party are ridiculously underpowered.
I am going to look into reskinning this encounter into 2 or 3 parts:
1) the stairs up to the gates/ gateway/ courtyard/walls
2) the final courtyard and roomsany advice from anyone appreciated. Will post again when I have had a go....
I used this approach with the Lost Chapel last night and it went really well. First encounter, 4 advanced gargoyles fought while party climbs the stairs (split the party). Second encounter, 6 ghasts, 2 clerics, and Inquisitor bumped to 7th level and buffed up and now has minions to flank with (outflank feat). Third Encounter, the Nabasu right after emerging out of his deeper darkness to hold/gaze the party. Kudos to Neil for making the monsters all fit well together and by stacking them up the party was challenged and had to use all their mythic power points to win.
Not using Army rules either, so comments here about having party face-off vs. various leaders are helpful, along with improvement ideas for Chimera. Thanks to all.
@DanP. That is mostly how I ran the chapel as well, it felt much more natural flowing from one encounter into the next.
As for Soltengrebbe I followed someone's advice and added the giant template to him in place of one or two of his mythic abilities. Ended up being a very tough fight as he joined in on the tail end of a fight with the brimoraks.
I removed the army rules as well except for all the RP challenges. As a quick note, I would suggest introducing more NPCs so the party can't metagame who the traitor may be.
I had my PCs do a 'leader fight' against the vrock on Paradise Hill. I added a random table to have the fight be influenced by the paladin army on the good end, to schir troop types or individuals on the negative side. It worked fairly well and I think my PCs enjoyed it.
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So far I figured that one would use the Morale modifier of the army, but maybe the commanders Will save also would be applicable. Maybe James or Adam could help?That's a good questions. I guess you could use the commander's will save. If you want to use the Paladin's will save it should not be hard. They likely either have Wisdom 8, 10 or 12 depending on how they were built, though you could use Irabeth as a template. From there, add their Charisma (probably a 14) and you should be pretty close. I wouldn't count magical gear or anything.Question: Do the Knights of Kenabres get to learn new tactics after a victory against an enemy army?
If yes, what is their Will save modifier with which they roll against the appropiate Will save DC?
As written, no, the knights don't learn new tactics. The mass combat element isn't intended to be that big a part of the AP, and I didn't think it would be fair to have the armies be that invested in the PCs' eyes so that they gain new tactics... but feel free to let them do so in your games if that works for you!
You can assume the paladins have Wisdom scores of 10 and Charismas of 14.
Thanks for the answer, James. Well, I already had my first mass combat session, so I went with the assumption that the army could get new tactics. I'll see how it works out in the end.
A couple things;
#1 For those that have ran this and upped the challenge, what steps did you take. Reduce # of combats but have more challenging? Optimize the key enemy NPCs? I am definitely skipping mass combat and doing PC + some NPC support vs enemy army leadership retinue and use the mass combat as the narrative backdrop.
#2 How does Skirmish #3 work with the watchtowers. It sounds like it is one demon per tower x 4 towers but the encounter is CR 9 so, I assume that the party fights all 4 of the demons in a single tower due to their ability to teleport around.
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Just finished book 2 tonight. I opted to not let them level from 8 to 9 before finishing the dungeon for a bit more challenge. It definitely upped the challenge at that.
Most of the early fights only sapped resources and ...well some levels. The spectres were particularly nasty and most of the party after them had 1-3 negative levels. As they had not brought along 1000s of GP in diamond dust this was an issue.
Additionally, I had Eustoriax (sp probably wrong) continually summoning shadows to send toward the party. I actually had him send his summoned shadow fiend as a psyche fairly early on (which worked and through them off a bit). He engaged them in the hallway with the fake Sword of Valor (and trap). This lended the trap to being the real one and the paladin charged to take it during the combat setting off the trap. Most of the party except one cohort made the saves (and promptly dropped). Those that know the trap will know why I'm going to have a blast with that later (fyi it is a mongrel ranger they brought from the first book).
His magic jars were brutal. He grabbed the summoner's eidolon first round and was promptly tossed out by a protection from evil. Next round he grabbed the summoner (and the prot from evil failed due to a missed spell resistance roll). The monk went next and proceeded to flurry the summoner non-lethally into unconsciousness. The last magic jar was tried on the monk who got lucky on the save and resisted it. After that he played with spell-like abilities to keep them off guard (a shadow conjuration spiked pit and a shadow evocation blacklight). Really recommend the later as half the party failed the save and couldn't see him.
I have to say he was a lot of fun and gave the players a heck of a challenge the way he was played. Between the negative levels and his tactics made for a really long and fun battle throughout the whole dungeon.
*edit* I also maxed his hit points. Something I recommend now. Else he would have dropped in two rounds instead of closer to six+.
I will likely be running the Eustoyriax fight this week or next week so I will comment here with how my party does. It should be an interesting fight for sure, so I am curious to see how my players handle it. I've made a few adjustments to his abilities, primarily allowing him a means of bypassing Protection from Evil via dispelling it, so I am keen to see how big of an impact that makes on the fight.