Of course all this comments are based on my group's capabilites.
Therein lies the rub. You know your group better than anyone, so you'll need to scale and adjust (as you suggested earlier) to still make things challenging/enjoyable for them.
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The way I look at it is that the "easy encounters" are there b/c going through a castler is a slog and it's much more about depleating resources than actually challenging PCs.
I haven't started this AP yet, but seeing as the players only fight 2 or 3 mythic monsters in the AP, wouldn't the rest of the regular monsters be easy and no challenge to them, even when they only have 1 or 2 tiers?That will depend on the monster's CR and the encounter setup. For this adventure, I see too many encounters where creatures are individually 3 or more CR points below the PCs level. That is much more important mechanically than the supposed Area EL. For my gaming group, this means "easy encounter", so some of them will be eliminated and the xp used to upgrade encounters in other areas. In particular, the Citadel has too many encounters.
Also, don't forget that the party can recruit some of the NPCs to help them clear Drezen. Even if they are not mythic, it makes combats easier.
Two examples of easy encounters (there are more):
- Area G3. CR 4 creatures against 9th lvl/ 2nd Tier characters. That is basically free xp (EL 9).
- Skirmish 2 Ahari Bridge. This encounter only has one real threat IMHO: Barrid (and he is not that great either). The awesome man-eating aurochs and the cultists have no real way of damaging the characters at this level, save for the occasional crit. I'll get rid of the cultists, advance the aurochs, and let them move freely (EL 8).
As for the mythic enemies, I will try to add one or two. A good candidate for this mythic upgrade is Kiranda. Since she has a special relationship with Aponavicius, you can eliminate the red dragon pet and assume she was given one of the elixirs. If she escapes from Drezen, she can become a good recurring villain.
I hope the next adventure has harder encounters, and uses more mythic opponents.
And this is where I feel the Troop rules should have been utilized - representing the numerous weak guardians you would expect when sneaking into a fortress as a single, menacing creature is a great way to make the story make sense and keep the encounters fun. Hopefully later examples of this scenario in APs will use there rules - they are meant to shine in exactly these situations.
Okay, first of all, I LOVE this adventure and am so excited to see how the rest of the AP will go. But, as I read through mine, the pages started detaching from the binding. I've only been subscribing since Rasputin Must Die, so I don't have a lot of background on product quality (in the physical integrity sense) for Paizo softcovers. Is this an anomaly or something to be expected in future AP releases?
Yeah, I have had the same thing happen to the first book.
Seem like the glue has been applied badly since two of the pages are glued further in.It's only happened to me once before, with the "Gods and Magic" book (In 9 complete AP's and about 15 64 page softcovers).
It's most likely an anomaly.
Thanks!
in the bestiary section of the adventure there is a list of random encounters for the PCs to come across while they are traveling to Drezen. Does it makes sense that they should have to battle 1d8 dretches with an army of 100 crusaders behind them?? what am i missing here?
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in the bestiary section of the adventure there is a list of random encounters for the PCs to come across while they are traveling to Drezen. Does it makes sense that they should have to battle 1d8 dretches with an army of 100 crusaders behind them?? what am i missing here?
Those encounters are best used for the points where the PCs step away from traveling with their army, such as when they stop to explore ruins along the way or are taking care of things in Drezen on their own. They can also work while the party and army are camped for the night with the wandering monster perhaps attacking a lone guard on the edge that the PCs then have to rescue.
It's up to the GM, really, on where and when an appropriate time to use the encounter might be.
makes sense, thanks.
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Well for me having to go through a lot of easy encounters (no only those inside the citadel) is a waste of time. I prefer to have less encounters, but more challenging.
Agreed. In spades. I have been having a problem with the encounters for most of Paizo's written material (recently completed Carrion Crown, and before that ran Kingmaker).... and the adventures en route to the city are waaay under-powered.
In previous APs I have axed many encounters and where possible I have added them together into a more fluid encounter environment = borrowing from 4e encounter design philosophy. I don't understand why folks at Paizo are not doing this either....
Take the Lost Chapel en route to Drezen.... instead of having lots of small encounters, which as noted for a 6th level mythic party are ridiculously underpowered (CR4, CR4, CR1, and then a big bad leader CR 7 (oooooo) before a more challenging CR9 creature turns up (who seems to have no development - unlike the CR7 dude)....instead of small encounters of no consequence after another....why don't Paizo staff create more dynamic encounters? This could have been a real fun side-trek.
I am going to look into reskinning this encounter into 2 or 3 parts:
1) the stairs up to the gates/ gateway/ courtyard/walls
2) the final courtyard and rooms
any advice from anyone appreciated. Will post again when I have had a go....
But I do see this as a lost opportunity.... the Lost Chapel - it could have had some bleak art (need to find some)....make it a zone which is unhallowed as well...(eg with cause fear as an effect CL10)...
Musings
1) the gargoyles need beefing up - as do the ghouls and ghoul clerics.
You could give the ghouls fighter levels (Level 3)...or Ghast Ftr 2? - add them to the clerics having L5 (ghast Cleric 4?), and the gargoyles' number increased to 4.....
gargoyles weigh in first (skirmisher role) - alerting the ghouls....who pick their moment..
2) Nulkineth - make sure he has some minions more worthy than just plain old ghouls... (eg make them 4 in number, and at level 3 fighter/ ghasts Ftr 2) otherwise he is toast within 2 rounds with a party at 15 point buy optimised for killing demons - and then have Maugla turn up to kick their butt during that fight - near Nilkineth's demise...
The pcs may have to flee the demon if they have to - but their paladin army can save their skin if need be.
Just musings for now....
& yes - I guess space constraints hold folks back from really making encounter zones more interesting....and on this note, to be honest, I would rather have the AP broken down into more books (same price) with more space given over to fluid encounter zones, tied into floorplans you can buy as pdfs which print off nicely onto A4 paper - as well as having some haunting art booklets - as in C1 (Lost Shrine of Tamoachan) - to easily show pcs an npc, a building, landscape - like art of the route/ geography of the setting would be nice! Yes - I would pay more!!
But otherwise - I am liking so much about the AP:
NPC development
Stories tie in better so far - it does not feel like an adventure designed by a committee - and the npc angle helps in this regard.
Intrigue
Epic feel
Looking forward to next instalment....
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Yeah, tons of underpowered mook encounters which just eat game-time with setting up the encounter and then watching as they get killed in an anti-climactic curbstomp is one of the main complaints I've been making about AP's for years. That's one feedback which sadly has not taken root with the writers. :(
Yeah, tons of underpowered mook encounters which just eat game-time with setting up the encounter and then watching as they get killed in an anti-climactic curbstomp is one of the main complaints I've been making about AP's for years. That's one feedback which sadly has not taken root with the writers. :(
I wonder why?
Maybe perhaps they are afraid of pc death? Personally I would rather there was some....and likewise - not the total randomness that characterises some old school dungeons (eg Rappan Athuk) but at least having some encounters that are so tough, which reward the clever party (being prepared, planning etc) and punish those who are lazy.... or at least have a design which offers 2 options: the easy 'encounter' and here is how my group played it (tough version) - maybe borrowing from the 'voice' style of 13th Age on that one...
This could be assisted if Paizo went down the path of 1 book/ month for the AP - covering less level progression - and then allowing for more time to be spent on encounter design... or even in pdf support...having some extra pdf material you get as an add-on if you subscribe to the AP.... (thus no need to print it - but to have it as a down-loadable extra - same for art books ;)
My guys are experienced gamers. They use 15 point buy - tooled up for carrion crown as undead killers - they walked through the undead parts - construct part was a bit more tricky - ditto in Kingmaker.... ditto Rise of the Runelords - I remember my lot saying after the module Burnt Offerings (great fun) as to how anyone fell for the rope bridge trap.....(I told them after of the death toll on the boards from that) It would be good to have some more material aimed at adults who are experienced gamers who want a challenge and are not afraid of a body count.
If so, it would make running the APs far far easier....at least having a side bar: "How to pimp up your dungeon" or some such.... or as I said - a free/ cheap to buy pdf of how to run x for tough hombres. (and by tough I mean experienced gamers whose pcs are 15 point buy as the APs are designed for!) Plus if possible some great dungeon floor plans for some epic fights. :)
Pretty please James Jacobs? :)
If encounters feel too easy, just add more mooks and/or maximize their hp.
I have 6 PCs with rolled stats, averaging at around 25 point buy... I double listed monsters, or in case of named bosses I add minions to increase the CR by +2. Then I maximize everyone's hp.With this setup, I don't have any issues with battles so far and everyone in the party can pick different targets.
#
Thing is Krinn - the APs are designed for 4 pcs with a 15 point buy - thus by having 6 pcs - this is obviously going to necessitate changes - and then allowing a 25 point buy (in effect) this makes retooling encounters even more burdensome.
Because Pathfinder is so mathematical (unlike say Call of Cthulhu or WRFP 2e), it is nice if Paizo can do the dirty work.
I now have HeroLab since it means retooling a 13th level cleric into 15th level is so much easier! (or any other class)...in Carrion crown, so many levelled npc enemies were under-levelled and badly designed, I really had to work very hard to rekit them/ rework them so they could offer a challenge to the pcs..... time I don't have. My wife is very glad I am having a break from the hot seat GMing wise....and I am using my downtime to slowly work through this AP and beef it up NOW so when/ if I eventually run it, it will be doable.....but better still - if you are paying for an AP, better that the designers have done their homework and thus cater for you (as in 4 pcs (sometimes only 3 in our group), 15 point buy)....and stop the APs being a cakewalk as they stand.....
Yes - I max out HPs. Heck - with the Bosses, I give them 2x max HPs (boss them up like in 4e) - as well as put advanced templates on other critters/ change them....make most encounters AP+2 to +3 and forget the rest- focus on story and the occasional fight. I didn't like 4e - but I liked its encounter design philosophy -and Dungeon Delve illustrated that really well.
:S
just a thought archmage mescaline, shoot it down if you want. what about using the corpulent ghouls from Carrion Crown, i think they're CR6 and would cut down your own prep time:)
just a thought archmage mescaline, shoot it down if you want. what about using the corpulent ghouls from Carrion Crown, i think they're CR6 and would cut down your own prep time:)
cheers - I did think of them - then I thought - we just fought them in CC - plus..... I am keen to try and stick to the Abyss theme of vermin....plus - they are not very mobile! But thanks for the thought!
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If encounters feel too easy, just add more mooks and/or maximize their hp.
I have 6 PCs with rolled stats, averaging 33 point buy... I double listed monsters, or in case of named bosses I add minions to increase the CR by +2. Then I maximize everyone's hp.With this setup, I don't have any issues with battles so far and everyone in the party can pick different targets.
That makes the senseless encounters just eat more time. The problem is not that there aren't enough opponents for the party to beat up on, the problem is that those encounters are designed to be really easy, so easy in fact that most of these monsters/NPC's won't be even able to hit most frontliners.
Supposedly these kind of encounters are there to cost the party resources, but if they do that, it mainly happens because the players of the limited use ability classes don't want to just say "Yeah, I clap politely as the Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/other frontliner mops the floor with those CR -2 monsters who can only flail uselessly against their WBL appropiate armor class".
For this module it won't even that much of a problem yet... the module ends at level 10, which is more or less the turning point (give or take one level), when the "player character power curve" really takes off against the "Paizo expected monster power level". Player characters get very durable, the WBL gets high enough to allow a greater diversity of equipment, spell get increasingly fantastic, save DC's originating from player characters get really high and to-hit and damage numbers just zoom into the stratosphere. Monsters just cannot really keep up with that and neither can NPC's due to their limited equipment (full casters are somewhat of an exception, but they are very rare compared to melee focused opponents).
Mythic doesn't help with that and I am really, really alternatively terrified with doubt and very intrigued about the design approach for what the designers have come up with for the following modules to prevent PC's just stomping like a group of kaiju through the modules to come. Especially the last one.
I noticed that. In fact, there's only two things that will have eaten player time and resources: healing NPCs at the start of the game (assuming they do), and cleaning up the first temple. In fact, given that the first area is probably cleaned out by 12:30 if the party is being slow, they'll reach the temple by 1:15. There's only one reason to take eight hours to clean the locale: to eat up several hours so that the party has REASON to set up camp and the next morning recover healing magics.
If the party doesn't bother resting up at all, they very likely could get out of the caves by nightfall. But if they do that, they'll be probably 3rd level with no magic left.
Looking at the random encounters, I'm actually planning on siccing some harsher early encounters on the party so to encourage them to rest up, preferably when they're around 2nd level. Fortunately, random encounters can STILL happen at the temple until it's cleansed so even assuming four characters go full out cleaning that temple, there's still room for two random encounters to eat time and resources.
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+1000 to what Archmage Mescalin and magnuskn have said in general.
My ideas about the lost chapel encounters:
- The gargoyles are probably fine (a bit weak). One can be added, or the advanced template can be used to make them tougher. Either way you are not adding too much extra XP. They will be flanking partners for the other monsters.
- Get rid of the ghouls in D3 and advance each of the ghouls' CR by 2. Turn them into ghasts and give them one additional cleric level. that ups their CR by 2, for a CR 6 each (EL 8, but more realistic than before). Consider stacking all their HD (racial + class) when calculating the stench, paralysis and disease DCs, so they get more difficult to resist. This is a houserule of mine that has worked pretty well for monsters with special attacks and class levels.
- Again get rid of the ghouls in D6. That allows you to bump Nulkineth's CR by 1 with the advanced template, wich should let him last a little longer. Change his Lightning Reflexes feat (at his bonus, he's going to fail these type of saves anyway) for Multiattack.
The gargoyles (who sound the alarm when intruders are in sight) and the ghouls can start the attack, and then Nulkineth joins the fight. When he dies, the nabassu arrives. Some standard ghouls can be added during this battle if needed, arriving from outside the chapel. They won't likely add much to the fight, but if they are lucky attacking the characters in the rear things can get tense.
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You know, I feel I should start a proper thread about my general AP complaints... ack, I actually did that a few months ago. ^^ Seems like my feelings haven't changed much since then.
If you want to increase the difficulty of the chapel encounter without adjusting the ghouls simply put a recurring negative energy trap with a will save of DC 17. If a 3d6 burst goes off every round for 6 rounds that's really going to keep the party on its toes plus healing the ghouls at the same time. When the 6 rounds are up, then, nulkineth joins the fight. Harder for the party but not unwinnable.
You know, I feel I should start a proper thread about my general AP complaints... ack, I actually did that a few months ago. ^^ Seems like my feelings haven't changed much since then.
Let's do that then!!
Which forum should it go in?
Sorry - been rushing around at work - mad here until tomorrow (bring on the weekend!)
You know, I feel I should start a proper thread about my general AP complaints... ack, I actually did that a few months ago. ^^ Seems like my feelings haven't changed much since then.Let's do that then!!
Which forum should it go in?
Sorry - been rushing around at work - mad here until tomorrow (bring on the weekend!)
As I said, I already made that thread not even two months ago, so I am hesitant to open another one so soon. I think I'll rather wait out the entire AP and then give my opinion about the encounter design. If you want to read how the last thread went, here's a link. It devolved in the last page a bit into an advice session on the last module for Jade Regent, but otherwise it had good discussion.
Can a paladin upgrade Radience with her holy bond ability? IE: after the chapel, make it a holy +2 longsword?
In the beginning when listing off the NPCs and their specialties, it lists Aron Kir as the cleric of Shelyn and Sosiel Vaenic as the expert on siege weapons tactics and the like. I'm assuming that's just a typo. But it also mentions that the cleric is knowledgeable about demons, yet neither Aron nor Sosiel have Knowledge (planes). Should that skill be added to one or the other?
In the beginning when listing off the NPCs and their specialties, it lists Aron Kir as the cleric of Shelyn and Sosiel Vaenic as the expert on siege weapons tactics and the like. I'm assuming that's just a typo.
Correct. Reverse them. That's just an inadvertent mix-up between the original manuscript and subsequent development.
But it also mentions that the cleric is knowledgeable about demons, yet neither Aron nor Sosiel have Knowledge (planes). Should that skill be added to one or the other?
Things often change between how NPCs are originally envisioned and how they ultimately appear in the final product. James had to rebuild Sosiel somewhat differently than the choices I'd made for him. So, in my original turnover, Sosiel had Knowledge (planes) +9 and the ability to use the Alignment Channel feat against evil outsiders. That was so he'd be an effective combatant against demons on the battlefield and someone who could advise them about demonkind during their march on Drezen. So, if you add any ranks to Knowledge (planes) for one or the other, it should be Sosiel.
Hope that helps,
--Neil
Thank you Neil. Good work by the way.
Neil,
Since you are around solving questions, if you have time could you please take a look at some of the possible errors I found in the adventure? I posted them in the second page on this thread.
Thank you!
Since you are around solving questions, if you have time could you please take a look at some of the possible errors I found in the adventure? I posted them in the second page on this thread.
Hey, Scorpion...
That's an exceptionally long list to try and go back and do comparisons between calucations in the original turnover vs. the stat-blocks which resulted from the adventure's final development. Keep in mind that lots of things change in development. And that's for a variety of very valid reasons. I think any miscues you may have found in those stat-blocks are likely just oversights that resulted from some of those changes. So, it's not really something I should address here. I mainly wanted to help Dragios out, because he needed to understand why Sosiel was described as a resource on advising the PCs about the demons they might face. I was speaking more from a story perspective than a pure mechanical stat-block perspective. Though, obviously, to explain the story reasons, I still needed to explain how some of his skill points and feats were spent.
For the purposes of what you're asking, I can only assume you're finding it necessary to rebuild some of the encounters to suit a larger group of PCs (i.e., more than four), or higher-level PCs, or maybe just something with a higher CR for an experienced group of players. Either way, there's no need to get bogged down in sussing out all the discrepancies in the original stat-blocks. Just rebuild them from scratch the way that makes the most sense for your group and trust in your math or whatever character generator you might be using.
My two cents,
--Neil
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Another thing to keep in mind...
There are ALWAYS errors. And while it's admirable to try to make the stats and all that as accurate as possible... once you're in game... you and your players are going to make lots more mistakes without even realizing it. We do this all the time in our games at Paizo... for example, I realized well after the fact that while running an encounter with a mythic version of the Sandpoint Devil, I totally forgot it had a lingering breath weapon. Nonetheless... the encounter ended up being really fun!
You need to balance the desire for having "perfect" stats in an adventure with the fun of playing the game itself. As my friend Kyle Hunter said... "Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good."
I'm not critizing I'm just making sure I run it correctly. In SoV:
...there are 3 Mythic Trials:
Soltengrebbe #1
Staunton Vhane#2
Eustoyriax #3
That would put the PCs at 4th tier. Is that correct?
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I'm not critizing I'm just making sure I run it correctly. In SoV:
** spoiler omitted **
In the mythic adventures book you have a table that shows how many trials you need to complete in order to get the next tier.
In this book, PCs start with one mythic tier.
Defeating Soltengrebbe counts as a trial, and gives the PC their second tier.
To get a third tier, you have to complete two trials: defeating Staunton and defeating Eustoyriax/recovering the sword of valor.
They end the module with 3 tiers in total.
Not at this point, since I'm not sure all the upgrades are set yet... still developing the last adventure...
Make sure nobody can pounce in the first round on Deskari, otherwise that final fight will probably be very anticlimactic.
Yeah, I'm not even sure 700+ hp would be enough for Deskari to survive the wrath of optimized level 20+10 characters for more than 1 round.
I'm not sure he could do that against an average party (whatever that actually is). If you take the logical feats/spells your class would take + Level 20 WBL + mythic rules, I'm damn sure that things are going to get crazy in that last module. I hope the opposition is just as crazy.
Can't be easy for the devs to write those extremely high-level statblocks, though, so they got my sympathy. I know how just one high-level NPC can take several hours to get right. Especially if that NPC has to be pre-buffed for a fight.
I'm sure they'll do their best with the time they have available. Either way, you still may have to adjust for your own party and their strengths/weaknesses like any other module (just probably moreso because of the huge levels and power heh).
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Not at this point, since I'm not sure all the upgrades are set yet... still developing the last adventure...Make sure nobody can pounce in the first round on Deskari, otherwise that final fight will probably be very anticlimactic.
Or maybe consider not letting your player characters use pounce if it's that big a problem.
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I would beg the developer or author to do a test run of the combat before sending it to print for the final boss
A playtest run of that fight will indeed help...
But what we alas cannot playtest is how a group of players who have organically grown up to 20th level over the course of many months or even years of gaming can do working together.
Best we can do is make very educated guesses...
...but the GM's job remains "making sure the game works for his particular group." You're in it along with us, GMs! Help! :-)
(AKA: We'll do what we can, but if you as a GM know that your players are good at X and we never anticipate that in print because X isn't something that most groups do... you know about X more than we do going in and you should adjust for X as appropriate. Be "X" pounce or whatever.)
Or maybe consider not letting your player characters use pounce if it's that big a problem.Not at this point, since I'm not sure all the upgrades are set yet... still developing the last adventure...Make sure nobody can pounce in the first round on Deskari, otherwise that final fight will probably be very anticlimactic.
Erm, yeah. You do know that you can just buy a move action now with the mythic rules as a Champion or Trickster (Fleet Charge) or can give all your allies a free move action as a Marshall (Advance)? Now it's not only Barbarians (and some weirder feat/race/spell combinations) which effectively get to Pounce, but every melee class, if those extremely obvious choices are taken. "Pounce" meaning in this case "Move your speed and then still full attack".
I don't think it calls for great system mastery to read those entry abilities for three of the six mythic paths and come to the conclusion that you can do this stuff, so I'd expect that Deskari is built with those basic player abilities in mind.
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Or maybe consider not letting your player characters use pounce if it's that big a problem.Not at this point, since I'm not sure all the upgrades are set yet... still developing the last adventure...Make sure nobody can pounce in the first round on Deskari, otherwise that final fight will probably be very anticlimactic.Erm, yeah. You do know that you can just buy a move action now with the mythic rules as a Champion or Trickster (Fleet Charge) or can give all your allies a free move action as a Marshall (Advance)? Now it's not only Barbarians (and some weirder feat/race/spell combinations) which effectively get to Pounce, but every melee class, if those extremely obvious choices are taken. "Pounce" meaning in this case "Move your speed and then still full attack".
I don't think it calls for great system mastery to read those entry abilities for three of the six mythic paths and come to the conclusion that you can do this stuff, so I'd expect that Deskari is built with those basic player abilities in mind.
I do know that. That wasn't what was mentioned in that initial post about pouncing. For better or worse, pounce means something specific when you use it as regards rules discussions. In fact, the abilities granted to mythic characters are much better than pouncing.
And not only are we building the endgame NPCs with that in mind... but they've got those tricks as well.
And that was what I am hoping to hear. :) Thanks, James!
<keep an eye on initiative, though... with Amazing Initiative and Mythic Improved Initiative, I expect to hear a lot of initiative results like "41!" and "39!" from the players. Acting first can mean the difference between getting your turn or not getting it at all and from the two released demon lords, it seems like they will always go dead last.>
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As it turns out, Amazing Initiative and Mythic Improved Initiative are one of the easiest and most common things that mythic NPCs get in this AP; because it doesn't really complicate the stats and it's really good for them to go first. Dual Initiative is nice as well!
And that's another bear off my chest. :)
Is the mythic Chimera supposed to have spell resistance? It says in the text that it does, but it's not in the stats.
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Is the mythic Chimera supposed to have spell resistance? It says in the text that it does, but it's not in the stats.
Go ahead and give it SR 20... but it's also fine if you don't.
(I decided to get rid of its SR when I decided that spellcasters needed a break after fighting so many SR demons)
While reworking Soltengrebbe I noticed he has 6 feats. As a 9HD creature, he should have only 5.