I have started to ban it in my pbp games. Not because a lot of it isn't good but because in my experience EVERY time I have allowed it in one of my gsmes the player has been a massive pain in the butt.
I am sure there are plenty of reasonable people but in PBP it just hasn't been worth it.
it is frustrating because I have really liked some of the stuff but it just seems to open a can of worms.
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My argument that I don't have time to dig through all that crap to find the good stuff when the only thing you'll take as evidence is for me to dig through all that crap? No.
Perhaps the point is that you shouldn't denounce it as crap if you aren't going to bother to actually look at it.
The premise of wrong fun is a nonexistent thing. So long as your fun doesn't cause problems for others in a large way, there is no wrong fun.
Whomever was making that argument was simply trying to force an opinion on you.I know that. Not everyone on this board does.
I think brocolli tastes nasty. That's my opinion. I neeed no better argument not to eat it. Same thing goes for a lot of 3PP content.Opinions are invalid arguments.
That isn't an argument.
It is a fact that you do not want to eat broccoli.
Second, that was not the intention of my wording.
When i say options are invalid arguments, i men that they do not prove a point about what another should do.
My apologies.
there are a lot of good Chinese sauces that broccoli tastes quite decent with marinated. most of them go well with a similar marinade on beef
Chinese hot garlic sauce, the spicy garlicky stuff
General Tsao
Soy Sauce with a hint of fire oil
Spicy Kung Pao
Spicy Schechuan sauce
there, i listed 5 Chinese sauces that when used to marinate broccoli, taste good alongside beef
if the broccoli had a decent marinade? would you eat it?
even the most overdone or lazy of concepts can be made to look good alongside the correct artist
as another example, lets look at the hyperdimension neptunia plotline. it has a lot of perverse references and many pieces of cliche referenced quotes, but the basic plot is a group of 4 allied rulers, have to help each other's nations, stop civil wars among the people of each nation one by one. basically, they end the civil wars by reinforcing each other's forces and defeating those responsible for instigating the conflict, and work to resolve the need for peace among their people, but they did it in a rather artistic and animesque way.
to resolve each other's conflicts, the rulers had to resolve their conflicts with each other and work together.
by showing how 4 rulers (known in that game as Core Patron Units) could resolve their issues and stop a civil war among all of their nations, but first, they had to work to abolish their people's prejudices, which required them to abolish their own.
it is a bit idealized, but either way, the 4 rulers learn to get along, make peace, and stop 3 civil wars in the nick of time. without permakilling the instigator and her companions.
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But if you want to single out a publisher as doing particularly stellar work -- go ahead. Feel free even to name a specific product that will blow my socks off. Depending upon how much free time I have, I may pick it up and look at it. "Hit me with your best shot // Fire away," as Ms. Benatar so memorably put it.Razor Coast.Fair enough. I'll check them out if/when I get a chance.
But this actually sort-of proves my point. Midgard Campaign Setting lost the 2013 "Best Setting" Award in favor of Magnimar, which was published by ... (wait for it) ... Paizo.
Argo won the Oscar for best film of 2012. Therefore all other films released in 2012 were crap.
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Paizo took home seven ENnies this week, if I count right. Privateer took home four. Kobold took home two, Dreamscarred and Super Genius none.
You're aware that the ENnies are basically a popularity contest, right? Not an actual measure of the quality of a publisher's product.
It is similar to this thought process:
FAN: "Hey, have you heard of this band Imagine Dragons? Their music is pretty awesome."
PERSON: "Pfft, they've never had a platinum album or a song on the Top 100s charts. I'm not listening to them, they're garbage."
RADIO: "This week's #1 on the Top 100s chart, Radioactive by Imagine Dragons!"
FAN: "Huh. I liked Tiptoe better."
PERSON: "Pfft, whatever. Tiptoe never made it to the Top 100s chart."
Pretty silly, if you ask me.
And yes, I realize that I'm 100% biased because I'm a 3PA (Third Party Author). I propose a different poll: how many of the people complaining about the quality of 3PP in this thread have actually purchased a 3PP? Better still, how many people in this thread have actually purchased a 3PP and left a review intelligently explaining why you didn't care for the product on its product page? I do that all the time, personally. Constructive criticism is what's going to make the community stronger, not passive aggressive criticism.
+1 Alexander.
Argo won the Oscar for best film of 2012. Therefore all other films released in 2012 were crap.Even worse, I can only think of one science fiction/fantasy film that has ever won an Oscar for things other than special effects, costume design, or musical score. Therefore, the writing, directing, and acting in the entire genre must not be very good by default.
You, Sir, have clearly forgotten about the 1972 winner for best original song. Shaft is magical, and therefore fantasy. You should now apologize for being wrong. ;p
Wow this thread has really blown up and got ugly.
I think some people to take a step back and just hide this thread.
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Wow this thread has really blown up and got ugly.
I think some people to take a step back and just hide this thread.
But I'm talkin' bout Shaft!
here is my simple Ruling when i GM
play whatever the hell freak you want within my guidelines, hell, you can even use any overpowered races, equipment, spells or classes you please, even if you homebrew them, with the following caveats
you must provide me the relevant info for the material you are using
any option you use in my games, is an option permanently open for me to use in your games freely as i please. regardless of campaign or setting.
play a tarrasque in my games?
then i have the right to play a tarrasque in as many of your games as you please
play with any 3.5 material in my games?
then in as many of my games you please, regardless of setting, i have unlimited open access to any 3.5 books you personally used in your build or any book that contains the listed materials.
I think they have understandably decided to focus on their own systems (Dragon Age, Mutants & Masterminds, and ASOIAF).Back in 3.5 days, Green Ronin pretty much had a pass across the board.
In Pathfinder, Dreamscar Press has replaced Green Ronin (I wish Green Ronin was as prolific now as it used to be, not even sure if they are still a going concern).
They are, however, also working on a new and bigger edition of Freeport for Pathfinder.
Focus on Dragon Age? The last announced box is already about 2 years delayed, with no word when, or if there will be any more releases at all.
Here's my opinion on why I dislike most 3rd-party materials. I don't like 3rd-party materials and I would never use them. Now, I'm not saying that all 3rd-party materials are crap (they're better than the ones I can come up with).
The biggest thing about 3pp that puts me off of it is the lack of mutual agreement, or, the credentials.
This 'crendential' is the same sense of agreement that the people around the table (hereafter 'we') enter when we decide to play a certain ruleset over another. We agree that Pathfinder has more pleasing aspect to it compared to D&D4th, so we play Pathfinder. Even when we don't like some of the stuff Paizo prints, we stick with the rule for integrity's sake.
But the moment we introduce a 3rd-party material, it's obviously from a different company- one that we did not make a subconscious agreement with and one that's not currently 'IN' in the integral set of rules we play. That's a very foreign matter and the instant feeling of hostility is very hard to dismiss.
3pp materials lack the integrity. It lacks any sort of subconscious agreement with the group. If we decide to cross this line, what's to stop us from ignoring the next line of wordings in the official book that we don't agree with? What's to stop us from saying, 'oh the BAB limit on power attack is stoopid'?
We've already decided to make a pseudo-leap of faith already and we've successfully dragged the suspension of disbelief by a whole other level.
TL;DR in conclusion, to me, 3rd-party materials represent the coast just beyond the line where I'm willing to stray away from the main set of rules. I have entered/subscribed to a subconscious agreement to follow the rules presented by Paizo. Entering one after another, can only lead to total loss of integrity and feels debasing.
It's not about the quality. It's the alien nature of the rules that we don't like. Houserules come from within; 3pp without.
I need to say, I feel a bit disappointed in myself about 3PP stuff. Considering everything else I think about things, I really should use it more. This is creative people doing something they love despite often sad economic outlooks, so I ought to be all over it. My problem and excuse is that I really don't do major reading on a comp screen, so pdfs aren't my thing, and living in Sweden tends to limit what other options exist. I suspect things would be different if I lived in America. Another explanation is that I have everything I ever needed through fiveish editions of D&D, meaning that choosing what to use is already complicated enough to make my eyes bleed. So... Hate? Absolutely not. I am just a lazy, useless Swede.
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Thesis: As a whole, just blindly allowing all 3PP material leads to madness, and disallowing it, while close minded and unimaginative, at least keeps the balance problems with the guys who made the game.
Now, I've noticed that no one has responded to anyone who answered basically "Case by case allowance of 3PP is okay" and I will now respond to those posters: You are doing it right. I even feel there are some things from Paizo that should be allowed on a case by case.
I think this is absolutely the right way to look at the 3PP issue. No GM or group should blindly allow everything in their game (and keep in mind that even though the GM gets the final say, it really is the collective group's game). A GM must look over new things and decide if it's right for the game and group they are running - and that should include 3PP AND Paizo stuff. I know plenty of GMs that allow some 3PP material but ban some Paizo material.
By the same token, I think it's wrong for a GM to simply ban all 3PP material, simply because he has a negative impression of it. Be selective in its inclusion? Of course! Ban it all, without even looking something over and then making an informed, educated decision for yourself? No.
If a player comes to his GM, for instance, and says there is a class from a reputable, well-regarded 3PP company he would love to play and the class has gotten excellent reviews and positive buzz, I think it really is the GMs responsibility to agree to at least read the reviews and discussion comments for himself, look over the actual class itself critically and then make a decision. If that class looks good to him and will fit into the campaign the group is playing, the GM should be open to trying the class out. After all, one of the GM's jobs is to insure the entire group is having fun and, as long as a given class (from a 3PP or Paizo) is well done and balanced, why forbid a player from trying it?
I also have to say that I don't like anything that isn't OGL or at least available to check out for free before I invest in it. I remember really wanting to check out the Expanded Battle Scion, as it filled a niche that I really wanted in a class, but I could not test it out or even see what its class abilities were like unless I bought it. This made me upset.
There is something of a misunderstanding / myth regarding the OGL. The OGL was not created or intended to simply make everything produced under the licence to be free to any consumer who wants it. It's original intent was to allow companies and other content creators the ability to use things other companies create in their products instead of having to reinvent the wheel over and over again. It was to foster the free echange of ideas and material between the people that make the game products, NOT so that end users could just grab products for free. Admittedly, this is seemingly what the situation has become, however. This is probably a topic for a different thread though ...
As for the Expanded Battle Scion, it very much IS produced under the OGL (as are all of the Kobold Press New Paths classes). And, much like I said above, I would hope that reading the positive reviews (6 reviews, all averaging almost a perfect 5-stars):
Expanded Battle Scion Reviews
and the product description would be enough to give you a pretty good idea of what the class is about, without having to actually have the entire product for free first.
Also, most companies would be willing to send out a review copy to select individuals who are willing to give a product a fair review. In fact, if you PM me, I will be happy to send you a free review copy of the Expanded Battle Scion. Your only commitment would be to agree to read over it thoroughly, play test the class in your game and then post a review. Does that sound fair?
Actually, it is more like saying that the moment a professional football player walks out of the stadium he ceases to be a professional and that the quality of his performance will deteriorate.
Well, this is easy enough to confirm. Football is a team sport; a single professional football player will not be able to win any games against a fully-equipped team. As Gisele was quoted as saying, "My husband cannot f~!@ing throw the ball and catch the ball at the same time."
Which is why I keep pointing out that Paizo has awesome editorial staff that make their product largely superior to what any of the freelance authors who write for them could produce on their own. Because James Jacobs (the listed author) could not have put the entire Rise of the Runelords: Anniversary Edition package together by himself at that quality level.
I think it's wrong for a GM to simply ban all 3PP material, simply because he has a negative impression of it. Be selective in its inclusion? Of course! Ban it all, without even looking something over and then making an informed, educated decision for yourself? No.
I like how free and easy you are with other people's time. Are you equally free and easy with other people's money? Do I get to wear the clothes that I like and find comfortable, or do I have to shop at every store in town until I've looked at enough trash T-shirts to satisfy your criteria for "education"? Can I order what I like off the menu, or do I have to try every dish until you're satisfied that I can now decide that they do good tacos here?
If a player comes to his GM, for instance, and says there is a class from a reputable, well-regarded 3PP company he would love to play and the class has gotten excellent reviews and positive buzz, I think it really is the GMs responsibility to agree to at least read the reviews and discussion comments for himself, look over the actual class itself critically and then make a decision.
And if the player comes to his GM and says that there is a car from a reputable, well-reviewed dealer he would love to have the GM drive, does the GM have to go schedule a test drive? Or is he "allowed" simply to keep his current car?
Marc Radle? Marc Radle? Hmmmm. Oh. Also the author of Raging Swans Sunken Pyramid adventure. Which by my last count had seven 5 star reviews. Out of seven reviews. Must be crap. I'd ban it in an instant.
@Orfamay: I think you can keep your car, but if you are interested in a new car, you might try it once just to see. I don't think Marc is advocating militant choice-forcing here. His opinion is merely that banning 3PP sight unseen is unfair, and ,again in his opinion, wrong. He won't come around to your table and whack you with a used car about it though.
Please tell me how this is balanced
And it's really not a nice thing to imply that all third party products are "beta".Reality is under no obligation to be nice, any more than it's under an obligation to be polite.
While I acknowledge that some 3PP products are complete and well-made, an uncomfortably large number of them are effectively beta versions.
Examples? If by "third party product" you are referring to, say, a thread posted on the homebrew forum, then yes, I would agree that a lot of that is not polished. But of the main 3rd party publishers (FGG, DSP, Kobold Press, Rite), I haven't seen any "effectively beta versions".
I will say that a couple publishers have a tendency to do stuff like that...(I'm looking at you, Adamant Entertainment's version of the Warlock). But the good publishers? Never put out anything less polished than, say, the Summoner (which, like it or not, is really effectively beta). Or WotC's Truenamer.
How in your opinion is it unbalanced, I have a player in my home game playing a shaman I've had no problems with the class.
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I think it's wrong for a GM to simply ban all 3PP material, simply because he has a negative impression of it. Be selective in its inclusion? Of course! Ban it all, without even looking something over and then making an informed, educated decision for yourself? No.I like how free and easy you are with other people's time. Are you equally free and easy with other people's money? Do I get to wear the clothes that I like and find comfortable, or do I have to shop at every store in town until I've looked at enough trash T-shirts to satisfy your criteria for "education"? Can I order what I like off the menu, or do I have to try every dish until you're satisfied that I can now decide that they do good tacos here?
If a player comes to his GM, for instance, and says there is a class from a reputable, well-regarded 3PP company he would love to play and the class has gotten excellent reviews and positive buzz, I think it really is the GMs responsibility to agree to at least read the reviews and discussion comments for himself, look over the actual class itself critically and then make a decision.And if the player comes to his GM and says that there is a car from a reputable, well-reviewed dealer he would love to have the GM drive, does the GM have to go schedule a test drive? Or is he "allowed" simply to keep his current car?
Orfamay Quest, you seem to be copping a very negative, hostile attitude here, and I'm not sure why.
Your examples are not really appropriate because you are acting like it is your game as GM and your game alone and that simply is not true. Of course no one should be able to tell you what car you personally should drive or what clothes you should wear, but that is NOT the same thing. The game you as GM are running for your group is a collective, group activity. It is appropriate to make decisions that affect the group AS a group. If the game group was collectively trying to decide what toppings to get on the pizzas they are ordering for that evening's game, or what soft drinks to buy or whatever, would you not listen to everyone's desires and then try to agree on something everyone is happy with? Or would you say, sorry, I'm the GM - I don't care if some of you like mushrooms! I hate them so no one can have pizza with mushrooms! No compromise! I have spoken!
I would hope not. By that same token, if a player comes to you and says here is a well made, well reviewed 3PP class that I would like to play in our game and I'd like you to look it over and see if you feel it is balanced and appropriate for our game. If you are OK with the class, I'd love to play it in our game, are you saying you would simply refuse without even looking the class over for yourself?
Your point about needing good editors and developers is absolutely valid. I would point out though, at least in the case of the big 3PP companies, they also have talented editors and developers that go over and refine what the writer / creator comes up with. In fact, many of those folks also do work for Paizo.
So, in the case of the big 3PPs at least, you have companies run by talented, seasoned industry professions that have the same pedigree as many at Paizo, working with writers and creators who also do work for Paizo, producing work that is edited and developed by talented people who also do similar work for Paizo, yet you discount that work as somehow lesser quality than Paizo?
I like how free and easy you are with other people's time. Are you equally free and easy with other people's money? Do I get to wear the clothes that I like and find comfortable, or do I have to shop at every store in town until I've looked at enough trash T-shirts to satisfy your criteria for "education"? Can I order what I like off the menu, or do I have to try every dish until you're satisfied that I can now decide that they do good tacos here?
You're being awfully acidic. If you have an opinion, awesome. Share it. But you're basically flat-out attacking a talented writer for absolutely no reason. The passage you quoted said, "If your player is interested in a 3PP product, then check it out. Don't outright ban it." Your response made it sound like Marc expected you to use your time to search through every single 3PP ever made and forge an opinion on it. You don't have to do that. Let your players do the work. Believe it or not, but most players don't go out of their way to find and play with broken, poor-quality rules because they know their GMs won't allow them.
If you look at it in that light, as 3PP our rules need to be even better balanced than Paizo's, because nine times out of ten, if an OP combo gets printed in a book that's legal for PFS, whomever is GMing that PFS campaign has nearly no say about whether or not they're comfortable with a given player's character. You have checking stations at major events like PaizoCon and GenCon, but even at those if an OP combo is legal, its going to be at your table. 3PP products dwell specifically in the magical land of, "Your product has nothing that forces anyone to use it," so it needs to be top-quality stuff or guess what? No one is going to use it.
And if the player comes to his GM and says that there is a car from a reputable, well-reviewed dealer he would love to have the GM drive, does the GM have to go schedule a test drive? Or is he "allowed" simply to keep his current car?
I don't see the validity of this argument. A 3PP does not cost you $10,000. Personally, 3PPs don't usually cost me any money because I A) write my own material all the time and B) require that my players buy me a copy of any 3PP that they want me to allow in my campaign worlds. You'd be surprised how quickly that rule filters out the Less-Than-Three-Stars products, because my players don't want to essentially hand over $3 to me for no reason. Of course, I buy my own products too. I own Psionics Unleashed, I've bought most of my SGG collection, and when I buy a product, I make a call about whether or not I want to let my players use it.
Here's another tip. If you like being a critic, exploit that. Talk to publishers. I know of a few who will throw a free copy of a few products at your way in exchange for a honest review of the product. Because even if you tear a product apart, if you are thorough and honest, you might still convince people to buy that product if they liked the things you didn't like.
The one quote mentioned in this thread got to me...
3PP produce things that Paizo refused to buy...
You know the Prehensile Hair Hex that the Witch gains...It was in a 3rd Party Book by Super Genius Games before released as a Hex by Paizo.
3pp often releases product that Paizo wants to put way down the line (Psionics), and releases support for Paizo Products that Paizo does not have the time to produce, some of these get used later on down the road by Paizo.
3pp also give me more choices to use in my campaigns and my characters when I get to play and my top 5 character classes to play 3 are 3pp.
Time Thief, Clever Godling, Alchemist, Luckbringer, and Rogue.
I've seen a lot of Amazing products from 3pp like Rite Publishing, Super Genius Games, Open Design, Louis Porter, 4 winds, Raging Swan and many others. To be honest if you total up the amount of money I've spent I have spent as much on 3rd party publishers as I have on Paizo's Pathfinder product...and have over 8 gig worth of Pathfinder and supporting 3pp in my Pathfinder Folder.
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I said it earlier, I'll say it again. OGL needs something like Consumer Reports.
Isnt this what reviews are for? Arent we the consumer reports? People like Alexander, Endzeitgeist, and Dark Mistress put alot of time and effort into well thought out reviews of 3pp products. And the best part, most of the more prevelent 3pps will respond to questions, criticisms and requests.
For instance, one of the critisicms of Marcs Battle Scion, was that the force blast acted like a magic missile and didnt require a roll to hit or a save. Low and behold a few weeks later, it was changed to a ranged touch attack.
Owen will respond to almost all questions for Super Genius Games products personally (though ofcourse he misses some on occassion, but a bump or two usually fixes that). He would then if people are concerned about something explain his reasoning and why he went the way he did with certain rules. That is a huge layer of transparencey we dont get from even Paizo most of the time.
The personal interaction we get from writers of 3pps and the dedication of some of the prolific reviewers is just as good as a consumer reports for 3pps. Heck, we have active forums for most products when they come out. You can simply ask. I've been offered a couple free pdfs in exchange for a review for instance.
And ofcourse even bigger then that, a lot of 3pps offer a bunch of their content as open content. Check out d20pfsrd. Theres a ton of 3pp stuff up there. Check something by a company out, you can literally try before you buy.
The one quote mentioned in this thread got to me...
3PP produce things that Paizo refused to buy...
You know the Prehensile Hair Hex that the Witch gains...It was in a 3rd Party Book by Super Genius Games before released as a Hex by Paizo.3pp often releases product that Paizo wants to put way down the line (Psionics), and releases support for Paizo Products that Paizo does not have the time to produce, some of these get used later on down the road by Paizo.
3pp also give me more choices to use in my campaigns and my characters when I get to play and my top 5 character classes to play 3 are 3pp.
Time Thief, Clever Godling, Alchemist, Luckbringer, and Rogue.I've seen a lot of Amazing products from 3pp like Rite Publishing, Super Genius Games, Open Design, Louis Porter, 4 winds, Raging Swan and many others. To be honest if you total up the amount of money I've spent I have spent as much on 3rd party publishers as I have on Paizo's Pathfinder product...and have over 8 gig worth of Pathfinder and supporting 3pp in my Pathfinder Folder.
Its actually pretty close as to who has gotten more of my money, super genius games or paizo. If we are just talking about rpg content, its super genius games. If we include adventures and minis though, then its Paizo, or do we count the minis towards reaper and wizkids? Damn 2nd party releases confusing everything.
I used to have 2 3 inch binders full of the 3rd party material I used. They are still on my book shelf. But since I got my kindle HD, I have found it ALOT easier to just use that. Because those things were heavy.
Do I use all of that at the same time? Ofcourse not, in fact probably only a 3rd of it has ever seen use at my table. But its probably a much higher percentage then all of the paizo material i've bought. And its let me do things I never could have done otherwise. Thats really where 3pp excels. Filling in the gaps for the narrower audience that Paizo couldnt do because they have to commit a lot more resources and sell alot more product to justify it. I am often pointing people asking on the forums 'how can I make x' to 3rd party material, because while paizo material can usually be made to fit something, theres usually a 3pp product DESIGNED to fit it.
I know some people who automatically assume that 3PP material is inherently imbalanced or 'too far out there'. I laugh when I realize that those people must think the core PHB is, in any way, balanced.
You don't have to use 3PP material any more than you have to use elements of the core. But automatically dismissing it out of hand is simply moronic.
For the record, I've never called the core PHB balanced. It is, however, more balanced than a lot of the 3PP content.
Again, there's good content in 3PP, but I don't have the time to dig through 3PP and find it.
Hmmm then it must be my superior reading skills it takes less than 30 mins to go over a class for one of my players and tell them I will not or will allow it in my game...
The main rule that we go by is if you play the class you provide a purchased copy of the 3rd party material to the GM unless he already bought it. My players often go through my 3rd party stuff on my computer looking for cool options to play.
3pp has expanded our gaming experience, and not hurt it in any way.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The one quote mentioned in this thread got to me...
3PP produce things that Paizo refused to buy...
You know the Prehensile Hair Hex that the Witch gains...It was in a 3rd Party Book by Super Genius Games before released as a Hex by Paizo.3pp often releases product that Paizo wants to put way down the line (Psionics), and releases support for Paizo Products that Paizo does not have the time to produce, some of these get used later on down the road by Paizo.
3pp also give me more choices to use in my campaigns and my characters when I get to play and my top 5 character classes to play 3 are 3pp.
Time Thief, Clever Godling, Alchemist, Luckbringer, and Rogue.I've seen a lot of Amazing products from 3pp like Rite Publishing, Super Genius Games, Open Design, Louis Porter, 4 winds, Raging Swan and many others. To be honest if you total up the amount of money I've spent I have spent as much on 3rd party publishers as I have on Paizo's Pathfinder product...and have over 8 gig worth of Pathfinder and supporting 3pp in my Pathfinder Folder.
Just to bolster this. I stopped working on my Damascarran, and focus on magic items and spells instead (when the muse hits me) because the Revised Vanguard did what I was trying to do better.
So you have a 'fan fiction' writer, dropping his own work, because someone else came along and made a product that made me go "Huh, guess I'm redundant."
Anyone who dismisses a product just because of who isn't on the product is a fool.
Anyone who dismisses a product just because of who isn't on the product is a fool.
Well, no. I don't use 3PP because the best I've seen is a book that was mostly okay but had a few over power feats in it. I understand some 3PP mater was written fine with what was out and later didn't mesh well with new classes/feats/what not that Paizo put out, and they couldn't have known that. Also it kind of opens the flood gates; if you let one player use them you have to read his and then EVERYONE wants one and you have read all of them and that is a time commitment not everyone wants to make. Plus not all 3rd party stuff goes well together.
There are at least two different debates here:
Should a DM ban 3pp in his game?
I would say (and most would agree with me probably), what a GM bans for his game is up to him and whether his players will consent to that sort of game. For some...that's core rulebook only...core rulebook and APG...all paizo products...paizo and 3pp products
Where I think you are seeing the anger is the posters who are not happy just saying above, but then also have to throw around references to 3pp writers/creators as being "mediocre" "fanfiction writers" who produce "sewage" If people don't see how that is insulting, imagine if you had customers/clients who went online and said similar things about you in response to your career.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I'm cautious about almost all content we let into my games. Paizo included not because I think any of it is particularly broken but sometimes even pieces from Paizo have unexpected interactions. I review anything that I'm not familiar with and if I'm not certain I'll let it in on the provision the player may have to change that content out if it is disruptive.
**edit for clarity** I'm a huge proponent of all new content.. I just believe you have to make sure one player hasn't found all the secret cogs to make an uber powerful character that detracts from the fun of the other players at the table.
Your examples are not really appropriate because you are acting like it is your game as GM and your game alone and that simply is not true.Everybody has the right to play however they want to. If the GM and player have different ideas as to how to run a game, then they can play in different games. The GM can run his game and the player can find a different GM. If a player likes pickles on his pizza, the GM is under no obligation to eat it.
But you could always get it half pickle, half something else. Thats really what gaming, and getting together with a group of friends to have fun is. Compromise. Sure people can play in different games. But I dont know about you, but I game with my friends. I like playing with them, and while the game is important, its not the most important part. As gm I try to make sure my friends have fun when they come to my game. When I play I try to support the gm in doing the same. Gaming is a cooperative thing, and I just dont understand the my way or the high way mentality.
Do you simply not play with people you like and want to spend time with?
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That assumes paizo is the best in the biz and that 3rd party publishing is the junk paizo didn't like... Bit insulting isn't it?The ones who freelance for Paizo tend to send their best stuff there, where one of the best editorial teams in the biz cleans it up. The thing to ask yourself about their 3PP stuff is : why didn't they sell it to Paizo?
I submit that far too often, the answer is "because Paizo wouldn't buy it."
It also assumes Paizo buys unsolicited material which, unless I am mistaken, is not typically the case.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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As for the "Paizo won't buy it" reasoning. Think about the Paizo release schedule. There often isn't a market for a particular idea at Paizo because they can't cover every good idea within the planned schedule.
If a good designer comes up with an amazing fighter archetype but Paizo doesn't have a book that needs new archetypes. They aren't going to buy it. So if Super Genius Games or Louis Porter design or whomever is doing a product where the archetype fits why should the designer have to wait until Paizo needs it?
This also doesn't even address the material that is offered to 3pp and not to Paizo.
**edit** Ninja'd by this:
It also assumes Paizo buys unsolicited material which, unless I am mistaken, is not typically the case.