Most 3PP materials lack the factor of balance, and exist solely to fill fan niches that ignore power creep in favor of fun. From a casual gaming standpoint this is fine, but when you have gamers that want a system that balances and doesn't leave one player at the table running circles around the others it becomes a problem. Every 3PP thing I've ever looked at has the same issues of making things much easier on the players to the point where I don't even see a point in playing the game, unless all the enemies are +2 CR higher for the player using the 3PP material than they are for everyone else.
3PP are made by fans, not dedicated developers, and for the most part they all suffer from a sickness where their material has to be more powerful than anything we've encountered. Classes like the Dragonrider, and feats like Spell Finesse really make it difficult to keep giving 3PP material chances when they keep breaking the balance.
Most 3PP materials lack the factor of balance, and exist solely to fill fan niches that ignore power creep in favor of fun.
I'm not sure if that's totally correct so much as a fear. I've seen some overpowered material, but I've definitely seen a lot of underpowered or balanced material too. The game without 3pp isn't exactly balanced on its own either.
So, do you use 3PP in your games? To what extent do you allow them? What reasons do you have for restricting them?
I rarly allow 3pp into my game. The problem with it...atleast back in the early days of 3.0 OGL days which shaped my opinion on it...is 90% of it is crap. I realize that this might have changed a bit...but I have been burned to often.
Now saying that I will allow 3pp into my game if a player wants it. They just have to provide me with a hardcopy of what they want. In other words I will not actively seek out 3pp material to add to my game...I just don't have the time or money, or tolerence to read pdfs on a computer screen to do so.
I've seen very little 3pp hate, most people are happy to recommend 3pp products. However, due to the nature of it, there can be a lot of 3pp stuff that's imbalanced or poorly thought out. Also, if you're going to quote mplindustries, could you link to where they posted that? Without context, it's hard to tell if it's meant to be sarcastic, snarky, mean, kind-hearted, etc.
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Got nothing at all against 3rd party stuff in any of my games.
The Ponies for Pathfinder kickstarter looks pretty interesting after all.
3PP are made by fans, not dedicated developers, and for the most part they all suffer from a sickness where their material has to be more powerful than anything we've encountered.
While in some cases this is true, I felt the obligation to go forward and say that not only there quite a lot of 3PP made of true, experienced developers, a bunch of that material is created by people who also work for Paizo, either as freelancers or in-house. Examples could be Legendary Games, Minotaur Games, Super Genius Games and many other who I hope don't hold it to me that I don't remember their names.
What I'm trying to say is that the 3PP is more fluid and complex that it may seem at first glance, is more than just a bunch of fans self-publishing their house rules or stuff they like. There are some really serious people out there and I think is a disservice to them to ignore their work just because it's not made under the big umbrella that might be Paizo.
I apologize if some of my words or intentions sound rude or harsh, that's not my intention at all, but English not being my main language, misunderstandings are possible.
I heartily endorse and encourage my group to use 3PP material. Not every publisher passes muster, but Kobold Publishing, Super Genius Games and Dreamscarred Press get nearly a free pass every time.
The issue with third party books for Pathfinder seems to me that there aren't really any good ones.
The only noteworthy thing seems to be the Midgard setting, but I can't really find any useful information about it without buying the books. There's that one big monster book, that has been converted to Pathfinder, but that's about it. I really like "Secrets of the Oracle", but that's also just a 10 page pdf.
Almost everything seems to be a few pages of feats or spells. That just doesn't seem worth paying any attention to.
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I allow the psionics books from Dreamscarred Press mostly because I have players that really like psionics (and I do as well), and there's no Paizo content for psionics. It seems to be a well balanced, flavorful, and complete set of content.
I don't outright ban anything else, but most of my players have a dislike for 3PP content anyway. If something specific gets brought up I judge each feat/class/race/etc. individually as to if it is allowed or not. Aside from the psionics, more homebrew stuff gets used than 3PP stuff anyway.
I would also add there is also simply the bloat factor. Paizo's material has a wealth of options and possibilities I generally restrict options to Paizo published content with the caveat of if you have something you really want to try show me. That said I'm a bit of hypocrite as I usually DM and I do often use monsters from other companies.
I do have a good opinion of a few companies namely Kobold Press, Frog God and a few others.
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Three words: Super Genius Games. Nuf said.
Options = Power - 3rd Party gives you a lot more options.
Balance - Although Paizo doesn't perfectly balance the game, (impossible) we've grown to trust their judgment on what's fair. Most 3rd party stuff is balanced, some isn't.
That said, our group tends to allow 3rd party and homebrew stuff in our games. But unlike the Paizo core (Core, APG, ARG, UM, UC) it requires GM approval. It's almost always approved, although occasionally nerf'd.
I like a lot of third party material, and buy mostly everything by companies like Kobold Press or Frog God Games and a healthy dose of others like Drramscarred, 0One or Rite Publishing. I haven't actually used much of those in game, but not because I don't like it, the opportunity hasn't presented itself often.
The only reservation I have that it sometimes happens that an implentation of a concept by a third party published can later be "overruled" by na officil Paizo rule release, which migth poddible be problematic to deal with, but I think that is a lesser problem.
I must admit though that I have an irrational dislike of Super Genius Games that I cannot explain. I bought a few products that were, well, mediocre in my thinking, and I have the feeling that their concept of "a new product every week" sets pressures that might lead to inferior quality. Mostly though I can't define my dislike, as I could for a certain other publisher that shall remain unnamed.
There's great stuff in 3PP. There's some really "are you serious?!" stuff too. How big of a turd needs to be in your punch bowl before you don't want to drink? since we don't have time to examine all the things people may want to have from 3PP, we simply say 'no' to any of it.
That's basically my thought as well. Overall, the quality of 3PP is not very good, and I'd rather proactively say "no" and avoid problems than have to fix the game mid-adventure because of something stupid on p. 17 of the third party source material.
Obviously, this is less of an issue in some case than in others. Third party bestiaries are rarely a problem, since as a game master I don't have to use a monster that I feel is badly designed. Third party adventures can be fixed on the fly and can at least be a source of ideas. ("Hey, nothing at all in this adventure is useful except the title, but at least the title describes what would have been a cool adventure concept in the hands of a writer who didn't suck.") Third party spells can be addressed on a case-by-case basis if I have the time.
But third party character classes,... well, when I become dictator of the world, let me just say that there are a lot of books to be pulped and there will be no shortage of authorial wannabes at my reeducation camps.
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*wonders if they know that a lot of the 3pp also freelance for paizo*
*wonders if they know that a lot of the 3pp also freelance for paizo*
A good writer and a good editor generally make a good product.
A mediocre writer and a good editor generally make a good product.
A good writer and a mediocre editor generally make a mediocre or worse product.
The ones who freelance for Paizo tend to send their best stuff there, where one of the best editorial teams in the biz cleans it up. The thing to ask yourself about their 3PP stuff is : why didn't they sell it to Paizo?
I submit that far too often, the answer is "because Paizo wouldn't buy it."
The ones who freelance for Paizo tend to send their best stuff there, where one of the best editorial teams in the biz cleans it up. The thing to ask yourself about their 3PP stuff is : why didn't they sell it to Paizo?
I submit that far too often, the answer is "because Paizo wouldn't buy it."
That assumes paizo is the best in the biz and that 3rd party publishing is the junk paizo didn't like... Bit insulting isn't it?
That assumes paizo is the best in the biz and that 3rd party publishing is the junk paizo didn't like... Bit insulting isn't it?
Shrug. Reality is under no obligation to be polite.
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That assumes paizo is the best in the biz and that 3rd party publishing is the junk paizo didn't like... Bit insulting isn't it?Shrug. Reality is under no obligation to be polite.
That assumes your correct and that it is the reality. Was my point you might not be right.
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More options to selectively choose from = good.
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I submit that far too often, the answer is "because Paizo wouldn't buy it."
And sometimes that's because of quality, and sometimes it's because it doesn't fit Paizos vision of Pathfinder.
Finding purchases in 3PP land is like shopping at a thrift store. Sure, a lot of it won't suit you, but the things that do are a bargain for what you get out of them.
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That assumes your correct and that it is the reality. Was my point you might not be right.That assumes paizo is the best in the biz and that 3rd party publishing is the junk paizo didn't like... Bit insulting isn't it?Shrug. Reality is under no obligation to be polite.
That's right. I might not be right. There might be a third party publisher out there that can routinely match Paizo's quality but that has escaped my notice so far.
There also might be a sprinter out there who can routinely run the 100m in less than 8 seconds, but for some reason has escaped the notice of the world's press, and as a result Usain Bolt still gets all the media love. Perhaps he's blazingly fast on the practice track but gets really nervous in competition.
I'm not sanguine, though, about either possibility. I suggest instead that if there is such a publisher, he's doing a really lousy job of publicizing himself, because during GenCon week itself, everyone's talking about how awesome the new supplement is, or what kind of things might go into Paizo's adventure path, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of mention about the awesome new product by Rabid Walrus Entertainment.
Paizo took home seven ENnies this week, if I count right. Privateer took home four. Kobold took home two, Dreamscarred and Super Genius none.
I submit that far too often, the answer is "because Paizo wouldn't buy it."And sometimes that's because of quality, and sometimes it's because it doesn't fit Paizos vision of Pathfinder.
Absolutely. And a lot of times it's both.
Finding purchases in 3PP land is like shopping at a thrift store. Sure, a lot of it won't suit you, but the things that do are a bargain for what you get out of them.
And my time is too valuable for me to waste time haunting thrift stores. So, for that matter, is my money.
I allow 3pp on a case by case basis.
Back in 3.5 days, Green Ronin pretty much had a pass across the board.
In Pathfinder, Dreamscar Press has replaced Green Ronin (I wish Green Ronin was as prolific now as it used to be, not even sure if they are still a going concern).
Kobold Press usually get's a pass, especially their class options (spell-less ranger is a mainstay in my games).
Beyond that, it's all case by case basis, and if you have something you want me to allow, it needs to be given to me (printout of the pages from your PDF, or pointed to online at D20PFSRD).
And my time is too valuable for me to waste time haunting thrift stores.
And it amuses me when someone says this while having an argument on a messageboard. That aside, I do see your point. No one can go through all 3PP stuff to find the best options, but it's worth keeping an open mind if someone approaches you with something they think is fair.
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I know some people who automatically assume that 3PP material is inherently imbalanced or 'too far out there'. I laugh when I realize that those people must think the core PHB is, in any way, balanced.
You don't have to use 3PP material any more than you have to use elements of the core. But automatically dismissing it out of hand is simply moronic.
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One thing 3PPs can do to increase the likelihood I will use/allow their products is to make them available with Hero Lab files. Typing stuff in is a time-consuming pain.
I know some people who automatically assume that 3PP material is inherently imbalanced or 'too far out there'. I laugh when I realize that those people must think the core PHB is, in any way, balanced.
You don't have to use 3PP material any more than you have to use elements of the core. But automatically dismissing it out of hand is simply moronic.
Here's the thing, I didn't automatically dismiss it, but when 3/4 times the material breaks or changes the game in a way where if not every single person at the table uses 3PP material they become dead weight, then I have a problem with it. I am not just judging it because it's not done by my sacred cow Paizo, hell Paizo started out as a 3PP also. I'm judging it based on experience with it not balancing with other materials not published by 3PP.
It's a very unhealthy can of worms to open up, and especially bad when there is only one person at the table who wants to use it, and that person laps the other players in terms of power without really putting in any effort because of the power creep allotted by 3PP material. At that point it becomes an arms race.
I have yet to find 3PP material that wasn't just a leap and bound in the arms race that left the paizo material lagging behind.
Raging Swan Press puts out some great stuff. Creighton is a fantastic writer. My DM was out, so I ran a party of 7th level dwarves thru his Retribution Module, which is actually for 1-2 lvl. (I bumped stuff up, but used the great writing as-is). The players loved it. So, yeah, sure, my DM may not be excited about bringing in a 3PP new class. But the modules are great in any case.