| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is it just me or does this ability make you practically untouchable if optimized? Please tell me I misunderstand something.
This grants its bonded user the ability to become utterly undetectable while invisible. While invisible and in physical contact with this item, the bonded creature can't be detected by any method.
So, if you are invisible, no one can see you. Period.
Not by spells, not by blind sense, not by being showered in flour. Not even a greater God could find you.That, combined with improved invisibility and clever movement, and you are pretty much untouchable in combat already.
But at least someone could "scry and die" you while you don't have invis up, right? Everyone does run out of invis uses at some point.
Well, in theory yes.
But remember that there is the nice little item "Ring of Invisibility", which lets you cast a 3 min invis at will. So, combined with a method to keep you from sleeping, you are now for all intents and purposes unstoppable.
Not unstoppable. Unfindable. The difference is significant: you can still be stopped by something as simple as a locked door, and you're still vulnerable to area attacks once you give your presence away. Your exact location may be undetectable, but actions you take may still reveal you are in a particular area, at which point panicking enemies may start throwing Alchemists' Fire in random directions.
And you are of course far from impervious to traps you may blunder into - mechanical triggers won't work, but Symbol spells should function just fine.
|
Is it just me or does this ability make you practically untouchable if optimized? Please tell me I misunderstand something.
This grants its bonded user the ability to become utterly undetectable while invisible. While invisible and in physical contact with this item, the bonded creature can't be detected by any method.
From where it come? Mythic adventures?
Yes. It's one of the abilities to add to "legendary items" (which everyone can obtain with a path ability).
So, a Level 20/Mythic 10 Alchemist with Enhance Potion, Eternal Potion(Improved Invisibility), Enhance Magic Item, Mythic Paragon and Legendary Item(with Undetectable) can't be found, ever?
(Well, as long as he doesn't walk into an Antimagic Field or gets randomly hit by a DC 36 beating Dispel)
Even if he gets killed by a Random Symbol Trap (is there any that can kill a level 20 Alchemist?), he'll return to life 24 hours later and is still undetectable while "dead".
Does anyone have a "real" counter for this? (besides casting Dispel Magic everywhere?)
Well, a good number of casters already fights only invisible without any problems of colliding.
Just telling your allies where you'll roughly stand (possibly over a telepathic link, so the enemies don't notice it) is usually enough.
The second point is a rather specific theoretical case that I don't really think is important for the question if such a build would be counterable.
Nothing short of completely omnipotence works 100% of the time. The tiny chance that a completely random hit knocks you out precisely when you are soon needed is rather unlikely and hardly makes it balanced.
|
So, a Level 20/Mythic 10 Alchemist with Enhance Potion, Eternal Potion(Improved Invisibility), Enhance Magic Item, Mythic Paragon and Legendary Item(with Undetectable) can't be found, ever?
Yeah ... I'm ok with that. A 20th level character with 10 mythic tiers? Using a legendary item and a few specific abilities to avoid being found?
Sure. That seems reasonable.
Well, a Legendary is pretty much just a Path Ability that everyone can get on Mythic Rank 1. The level 20/mythic 10 is just to get it constantly (Eternal potion).
For one fight, all you need is Mythic Rank 1 and Improved Invis.
Well, yes. Attacking give arguably your square. But there are a few ways to hinder that and not everyone does attack in a fight.
A little gravedig since i'm also interested in this.
Does this ability include a classical perception check?
It's true that is say any, i'm wondering anyway if the purpose was to make this work against method such as see invisibility and similar things, after all if it worked even on perception and similar thing what will be the purpose of the trickster ability "supreme stealth"; which need to be taken several time to have an effect worse that this single ability?
Also is not needed a 20 alchemy to have invisibility always on, you could just create with 24.000 gold a ring of constant invisibility (2 lvl spell X 3 lvl caster X 2000 X2 (1/m lvl spell) = 24.000)
(anyway as far as i know the classica ring of invisibility work this way, but suppose not you could just create it anew like in the above way).
A little gravedig since i'm also interested in this.
Does this ability include a classical perception check?
It's true that is say any, i'm wondering anyway if the purpose was to make this work against method such as see invisibility and similar things, after all if it worked even on perception and similar thing what will be the purpose of the trickster ability "supreme stealth"; which need to be taken several time to have an effect worse that this single ability?
Also is not needed a 20 alchemy to have invisibility always on, you could just create with 24.000 gold a ring of constant invisibility (2 lvl spell X 3 lvl caster X 2000 X2 (1/m lvl spell) = 24.000)
(anyway as far as i know the classical ring of invisibility work this way, but suppose not you could just create it anew like in the above way).
As written, not even a perception check could detect you.
ability to become utterly undetectable while invisible.
While invisible and in physical contact with this
item, the bonded creature can't be detected or
scryed by any method.
I would still rule, however, that people could get an idea of where you are by figuring out where your attacks or spells are coming from. I would also say if your verbal components couldn't be detected with a similar perception check then neither could your allies hear you talk.
I'm currently up against this as well. I agree with WulfKrigan on the mythic true-seeing, though I might make a call that it depends on whether the person casting true-seeing must be of a higher tier than the one wielding the undetectable.
Here's another question - if being undetectable by any means means that you can't be heard, would that also meant that your allies can't hear you as part of a message spell? How about when everyone gets telepathy? If your presence can't be detected via "detect thoughts", should it also be undetectiable via telepathy?
We have a rogue who is enjoying using this and I don't want to take everything away, but I don't feel right letting him have his cake and eat it too.
See, that's what I originally thought. I had a few monsters with scent and had figured they could smell him. But reading this thread, I'm getting the idea that that's not the case.
Won't stop invisibility purge, or area dispel, anti-magic, mage's disjunction, and so forth, but will completely shut down all means of mundane and magical detection, all the way up to a wish.
Easiest way to run it: creature has total concealment whilst invisible, end of story.
If someone says "yes, but what about..." with something other than a way to end the invisibility, the answer is "still has total concealment".
Sorry to grave dig here, but as a DM I would rule that only things that "detect" or "scry" don't function against it. True Seeing, See Invisibility, Glitterdust, Invisibility Purge, Blindsense, Blindsight, Scent, Tremorsense, all of these would work. Detect magic, would not.
Sorry to grave dig here, but as a DM I would rule that only things that "detect" or "scry" don't function against it. True Seeing, See Invisibility, Glitterdust, Invisibility Purge, Blindsense, Blindsight, Scent, Tremorsense, all of these would work. Detect magic, would not.
Then what would be the point of having a mythic item with that ability? It is clearly meant to be undetectable through any means...even the developer agrees.
|
|
Sorry to grave dig here, but as a DM I would rule that only things that "detect" or "scry" don't function against it. True Seeing, See Invisibility, Glitterdust, Invisibility Purge, Blindsense, Blindsight, Scent, Tremorsense, all of these would work. Detect magic, would not.
Even though the post directly above you quotes the designer which says this is exactly not how it works?
I would rule that stuff like Blind-Fight and such would work against this. Basically, sure the invisible creature is undetectable by any means, perhaps short of Mythic True Seeing if the opponent is higher tier, but that's a houserule.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you have this abomination of an ability, and are invisible, apparently your farts do not stink.
You could be invisible and sitting on some monsters head, and they would not feel you - since this could be covered by a really easy perception check, and perception does not work here. The same is true for blindsense.
If your eyesight and hearing can't detect it, is there any reason to assume, that your sense of touch works.
I could go on, but frankly the answer "because mythic" explains so much.
Running WotR .... oh well I give up.
Won't stop invisibility purge, or area dispel, anti-magic, mage's disjunction, and so forth, but will completely shut down all means of mundane and magical detection, all the way up to a wish.
Easiest way to run it: creature has total concealment whilst invisible, end of story.
If someone says "yes, but what about..." with something other than a way to end the invisibility, the answer is "still has total concealment".
Pinpointing the creature is the problem with the current ruling, and while PCs might manage to adapt, NPCs won't.
Constant protection from scrying, detect spells, and see invisible would have been plenty, maybe even retaining part of the stealth bonus against true seeing, ok. But immunity against perception just isn't reasonable.
We house ruled at our table that any EX ability can bypass, or any creature with the mythic subtype with constant see invisible or constant true seeing can bypass.
Yes, it limited the ability, but we found it too powerful and this balance helped is still run monsters and still feel pretty powerful.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qoi5?Ruling-on-Mythic-Adventures#6]"Because mythic" is my favorite quote from the dev.
Yeah, undetectable is just an abomination, the kind of things nightmares are made for GM when they first hear the word from a player in a mythic campaign. But hey, their foes can have it too, and it doesn't immune to blind casting AoE spells, or for the patient ones traps with weight as trigger.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know if this thread is still active or not. I looked it up while trying to find additional clarification about undetectable quality myself. In my campaign I have a ninja and a summoner that use this particular ability to great effect.
I discussed this ability with both the player that has the ninja and another GM of more experience than myself. We arrived at what I believe to be a good ruling for the ability.
Undetectable does in fact prevent detection by any magical or mundane means. This would include divination, see invisibility, true seeing, tremersense, blindsense, blindsight, etc. It does not however, prevent its removal such as with purge, dust of appearance, fairy fire. If the undetectable character attacks an enemy with melee then the enemy will know the square the invisible attacker was in at the time of the attack. with ranged attacks the direction would be revealed and possible the square as the ranged attack is not invisible once separated from the invisible person. So there are ways to hard counter (such as dispel, purge, etc.) and ways to find the invisible person's location if they are interacting with the environment.
This of course still allows such characters to be perfect scouts and ignore attacks of opportunities.
As for always being able to keep up invisibility using mythic power points. This can be countered by throwing more encounters at the party in a shorter amount of time. The players will eventually get a mythic boon that lets them restore their nonmythic powers by spending a mythic power point. A limited time mechanic can be built into the campaign to provide stress and a need to keep pushing. This will force the pcs to use their mythic power points for these refreshes.
Also remember AoEs are not limited to Ref. Use cloud kill, confusion and similar AoEs to affect the party. Almost every character will be weak in one of the saves. Just use a variety of attacks to challenge each pc.
Another option would be to have the enemies realize they are outmatched and have them retreat and prepare for another encounter, this time taking into account that there are invisible members of the party. This would be especially true of intelligent enemies. Also enemies with Int of 24 and greater would likely have thought on the capabilities of the party before encountering them. It would be within the rights of the GM to use a little metagaming to prepare such intelligent creatures accordingly.
It is necessary to note that these methods should not be used in excess as the pcs should feel that their choice of character is valid and powerful but they should still feel occassionally that they are not untouchable. As such my goal as a GM for any difficult encounter is not to wipe the pcs but to challenge their characters. Their should be a hefty amount of damage and maybe some incapacitation involved but in the end they should prevail and feel they earned success with real effort.
Anyway that is my two cents on undetectable. Very powerful but still useable in the game.