What specifically do magic item shops do to keep from getting robbed?

[paladinguy]

What do magic item shops in pathfinder look like?
What do their owners/shopkeepers look like?

What kind of spells/tricks do the do to keep from getting robbed?

[EWHM]

I imagine most don't keep their stock on the premises. Most goods are probably delivered via spell. Remember that the magic item industry buys at half cost and sells at full price. They can afford a LOT of security at that price. They're also likely the premium users of divination magics. To tie them to reality, think of them as really exclusive premium dealers in the real world for things like bona fide assault weapons (full automatic), super expensive automobiles, art, or antiques.

[paladinguy]

I'm new to D&D.

What kind of spells would they use to keep things off premises, but to easily get to them?

What are the most important/common divination spells they would use to stop a robbery?

[EWHM]

There are various teleport spells and summons spells that can be used to fetch items. Secret chest comes to mind.
As to which divinations, the Divination spell itself is handy, as is contact other plane and commune (question: is someone going to try to rob my shop this week).
I generally postulate the existence of a cartel running the magic item trade. That cartel probably spams the various future-predicting divination spells in a way that would make stock market predictors (who have far worse accuracy in the real world) rather jealous.

Here's the fundamental deal though. You don't need perfect security, or even close to it. You need enough security to make the amount of stock that could be stolen a bad bet compared to knocking over, say, a dragon for his horde. So you lay lots of magical traps (glyphs of warding, fire traps, snake sigils, etc. You have lots of guards. And you store most of your expensive stuff offsite (largely distributed throughout your cartel's network). And most importantly, you develop a reputation for honest dealing but being INCREDIBLY vengeful.

[paladinguy]

Would they use golems as guards in the shop?

[EWHM]

Maybe. Golems might serve as dual purpose inventory (they sell golems and constructs) and guards. They probably hire regular fighters and mages though more often than golems. Golems can be really pricey for what punch they offer. I'd bet on simulacrums, as they're pretty cheap (500 gp per hit die or level).

[Selgard]

There isn't a "standard" really. What they do is entirely up to the DM and even then it varies by location and by the wealth of the shop and the community.

The far larger question is: How much can they afford to spend to get whatever it is you are trying to steal back from you?

The answer is: As much as the DM wants them to have.
You are either stealing directly from spellcasters or from someone who is selling things for the spell casters.
You might very well get away with the item but how far you get is an entirely different issue.

Golems, mercenaries, the casters themselves, bounty hunters, all manner of bound and called creatures.

There's a saying from Shadowrun that I've always liked.
Never stiff a street-doc.
I've always felt the same applies to magic shops.

-S

[Avatar-1]

Explosive Runes

They cast fireballs at would-be muggers

etc

[Matrix Dragon]

EWHM wrote:

I imagine most don't keep their stock on the premises. Most goods are probably delivered via spell.

Suddenly, 'magic shops' make a lot more sense to me. You know in any world with magic there has to be at least a black market dealer who has the connections to get you the items you want...

[Rynjin]

They create Simulacra of Izchak.

[spalding]

Lead is useful to block divination spells -- and generally cheap, please note you could have lead crystal for windows too.

Also don't forget mundane defenses. Most security is about deterrent, make yourself more trouble than you are worth.

Also prices for minor magic items is low enough that it's not as bad as it could be, many pieces of mundane equipment are worth just as much.

[Owly]

This is a very good thread topic, as we all know how important the magic shop is in PF.

Some good answers here so far too.

On a low level (villages and small towns) I would say it runs on a reputation system; sure, you can get healing potions and maybe a wand or two, but the few wondrous items and weapons they have for sale will require a nod of approval from the local constable or sheriff. (So go do those quests and make friends).

On a higher level (towns and small cities) you're going to have to earn access to that higher selection by doing favors (quests and deeds).

Big cities and metropolises? There is a vast reputation system in which low level merchants (the shopkeepers off the beaten path) work similarly to the smaller towns, but they have a much greater selection and many, many safeguards in place. They also belong to protection guilds and can call on the thieves guild for help too. (The local law enforcement actually encourages this). You might get away, but you won't get far. Many shopkeepers keep talismans of membership in plain sight.

The bigger shops and seasonal travelers that show up to the festivals and such will have bodyguards, diviners, enchantments in place, as well as a word-of-mouth reputation system that would shock you. Those five stars you earn in GTA? Yeah, you get those, and they don't go away either.

Still, when all is said and done, those safeguards exist but a good thief will know how to get around them. Good luck.

[Owly]

and specifically:

- trunks and lockboxes
- secret stash locations ("Come back later today, I'll have it for you")
- trained attack dogs
- trained attack goblins
- years of experience on the streets (high Sense Motive and a poison dagger)
- trap doors, trapped locks, darkness spells
- an assistant with a wand of Slow or Hold Person
- trained attack rugs
- a precarious shelf full of heavy and noisy objects that is set to collapse if the shopkeeper kicks a leg of it away, and everyone in town knows that they're in trouble and should come help when the pots and pans come crashing down on top of the troublemakers
- a fishbowl with trained attack eels
- a fenced-in area like a modern pawn shop, and a really angry-looking half-orc with a spear who gets paid based on how intimidating he looks (he can attack through the bars with the spear, and the front door locks)
- suspended tanglefoot bags on the ceiling and itching powder near-at-hand and a whistle for calling for the sheriff
- Trained elven archers who watch this alley like hawks. They're well-paid and quite alert.
- "Do you even KNOW who you're robbing from? I feel sorry for you."
- "Yes, effendi. I see that you have sharp eyes and are quick. No doubt you see an opportunity, yes? I assure you, I have traveled these deserts for many years before you were born, and I take no offense as I was once an opportunist like you. ...Bazmortam, though (gesturing to the huge scimitar-wielding barbarian grinning in the corner) DOES take offense. Please put your hands in your pockets and leave them there while we talk, yes?"

[spalding]

Don't forget contracts. Build on demand means that there's nothing to rob, and if you are robbed then you have someone that's already paid half wanting it back just as much as you do.

[Owly]

Don't forget simple thing either, like the fact that many good magic shops are going to be IN places that may be very difficult to get OUT of if the players have to shoot their way out. (Halls, doors, gates, guards, wards, courtyards with lots of crossfire posts set up, etc.

[Rahnum]

Many people also make the shopkeepers level 20 wizards, who happened to have just set up shop and sell items they made. And god help your pc's if they piss off that shopkeeper.

After all what did you think adventurers did after their journeys?

[Shadowborn]

We've had this discussion previously. I still like this idea.

[Detect Magic]

Well, assuming a spellcaster is selling these items, he or she can cast alarm each night before closing shop and then, if the place is broken into, deal with the would-be-burglars. If this spellcaster is sufficiently powerful, they could create a golem or two to serve as sentinels (activating when the alarm is sounded).

[Sitri]

I think shadowborn has a pretty good solution. Another one would be to have the crafter/crafters hunt down the thieves and leave them bloodied and penniless.

[David_Bross]

Think about who carries magical items (adventurers) and who makes magical items (high level casters). It isn't so much theft, as it is murder, since people tend to defend these things quite well, and on another note, those that defend them tend to be pretty careful of doing so, or else they never would have gotten them in the first place.

[strayshift]

Given that high level arcane spell users can create their own demi-planes I suspect the premises of powerful wizards are extra-dimensional and the portal protected against scrying.

However I suspect most peddlers of magic are lower level and essentially have a set purpose to achieve which means that they will only be selling for a finite period of time (if they were pcs this would be their 'downtime').

They also probably will probably not have all the item creation feats (again like pcs) and would take orders from a limited range of options (based on their feats) rather than be able to churn out everything and anything.

The permanent shops would have a regular stock of cheap items that apprentices made and that would sell fairly regularly. Likewise there WOULD be some local regulation of what was allowed (imagine the chaos of unlimited access to love potions, let alone weapons of mass destruction). The rarer/more bespoke items would be made to order, aside from theft this also prevents the local lord from 'commandeering' the stock to help his armies. This means there would be a waiting time as other orders were finished and then the item itself was made. The bigger the settlement the higher the demand and the longer the wait for more expensive items.

Then there is the element of fashion, famous creators may be valued artists in their own right (just YouTube 'Uthbert, Viking sword and watch the video) and again there would be greater cost/demands associated with their work.

So security. Appropriate to the value of the items on sale and the makers paranoia - pcs tend to be VERY in my experience. And if you did steal something don't think it will end there - a sensible maker could use a simple Locate Object to find something they were familiar with, unless it was held permanently in lead.

[Truvalk]

A Trick a GM and myself pulled off for a drop off point for my Gunslinger/Inquisitor was the shop itself had a powerful area of non-detection, an Illusion Field to make it appear as part of another shop, as well as several people working there who are of high level. It all depends on the world your in really.

[magnuskn]

The only way I can imagine magic item shops not being knocked over constantly by immoral high-level adventurers is that the owners form a guild which can bring down the wrath of the heavens (or hells) down on any such group of thieves.

[Lincoln Hills]

I rarely have more than three or four magic items come up for sale from any one source, and most of those 'sources' should be guilds or temples or others who only offer these items to folks who have influence there. Having to win enough trust to bring up the notion of buying extra magic items is the barrier there: Joe-off-the-street won't even be told that anything is available for sale.

I don't really encourage the use of public-access magic emporiums, but if you feel they fit your campaign, draw your security along the lines you - as a private citizen - would experience in real life if you somehow got permission to visit a national-security-critical site... then throw in whatever precautions the Feds would take if they knew that you could dominate or teleport. Conditions that a PC might never ordinarily agree to, such as surrendering all magical items, permitting a full-body search, or waiving a save against the effects of silence or dimensional anchor, are just part of the joy of getting to pick items straight out of the book.

It can be helpful early on in the campaign to have a well-organized and prepared gang of crooks try to break into the local shop and have the corpses put out for public display the next morning, just to establish that the store operators have the legal right - and the necessary security - to kill, petrify or polymorph intruders, and nobody (not even the law) sees anything immoral or unusual about it.

Lastly, as EWHM stated early on, the best way to avoid loss of inventory is to only have the inventory on-site when a sale is imminent, and leave it the rest of the time in "an undisclosed location."

[Artanthos]

Deterring people from making the attempt is probably the best policy.

Maintain a series of well publicized contracts with a major assassins guild to recover stolen property and make examples of those responsible for its theft.

In the unlikely event those contracts are needed, fully support the recovery with liberal usage of divination and transportation magics. One successful recovery should provide years of incident free business.

[Craig Mercer]

Besides using their own guards and traps, the magic shop may make an agreement with the Theives' Guild. Paying a "fee" to the local Thieves’ Guild pays off well.
You pay a reasonable set fee, the Guild makes money that it doesn't have to "work" for, and "questionable" magic items can be bought or sold without notice.
No Guild thieves rob you.
And the Thieves’ Guild then has to make sure no one else robs the store, lest its own reputation suffer. So they set people to watch the place, which also help tip them off to wealthy adventurers that show up too.

[FLite]

Also, remember that magic shops probably supply all the local adventurers. A few "I'm sorry sir, I can't recharge your wand right now, I'm backlogged filling orders because someone robbed us" and the thieves will quickly find that it is a bad idea to rob people who supply adventurers. (This is also why you don't rob the local adventurers tavern...)

Depending on the local laws, the store may not just display the dead bodies of former thieves. They may raise them from the dead and imbue them with deadly abilities as well.

[Shin Bilirubin]

I would imagine that the people selling the items are also well versed in their use, and would quite happily use a couple of wand charges to chase off would-be thieves.

[Spook205]

FLite wrote:

Also, remember that magic shops probably supply all the local adventurers. A few "I'm sorry sir, I can't recharge your wand right now, I'm backlogged filling orders because someone robbed us" and the thieves will quickly find that it is a bad idea to rob people who supply adventurers. (This is also why you don't rob the local adventurers tavern...)

Depending on the local laws, the store may not just display the dead bodies of former thieves. They may raise them from the dead and imbue them with deadly abilities as well.

Shoplifters will be utilized.

I found a partial way around this, most items in my world end up with something we've taken to call 'Unique Properties.'

One of the benefits of store owners if you buy them legally (most times) they'll tell you these properties.

Like that monkey paw that grants wishes, it actually turns them to the worse.

Or that cape of flying? It results in rainbows following you.

The general idea is that you don't mess with magic stores because 1.) They have stuff you don't understand and 2.) If you do understand them you don't mess with them.

Its important to remember too that the magic shop shouldn't have like...racks of +2 ransuers. It should have a limited numberof magical items of appreciable value, along with a storeload of other magical merchandise that is basically semi-useful garbage.

Is that bag giving off transmutation magic a bag of holding, or is it full of treated manure to assure a good harvest. Is that armor enchanted with a +1 or is it just always shiny.

Smash and Grab types don't have all night to stand around scanning the stuff, and the mage probably won't let you hairy eyeball the merch.

[Dracovar]

My magic shops would be very simple affairs - a smiling salesman behind a counter of an otherwise completely empty store. Said salesman is merely an employee - perhaps with ranks in diplomacy (for price negotiation), but otherwise, not particularly remarkable. Perhaps he as a book with a listing of available wares.

People come in, say what they want. If the offsite stock has it available, a price is negotiated. Money is paid upfront and quickly (and magically) sent offsite. A delivery site is arranged and party gets a "Teleport Object" chest at an appointed time with their purchase. Obviously, the Shop has to have a reputation for utter and complete reliability (no stiffing the PC's - there has to be a DM/PC understanding here).

The store itself would never present itself as a decent target for theft. Whereever the actual warehousing/factory resided would be the real target. But it would be guarded with all sorts of spells, Simulacra, goon squads, traps, etc - a total death-trap for any group dumb enough to take a crack at it. This is the DM's hammer - a group goes after a legit shop storehouse gets the gloves off, "you just messed with the wrong guys" treatment with CR's well north of 20 awaiting the PC party.

If a magic shop is setup so that a "snatch and grab" theft could yield anything of value, someone isn't using their Int stat very well.

For variants on the idea - well, there might be some less than honorable types that use Magic Aura to rip people off. Or, the shop is a front for a group of thieves - they use it to identify adventurers that have money (and then rob them).

[DM_Blake]

paladinguy wrote:

Would they use golems as guards in the shop?

Not to plug my own novel, but I'm going to anyway. Yeah, I use golems to defend magic shops (among other tricks). In Soulrender (available at Amazon, thank you in advance if you purchase it) my heroes get to find that out the hard way...

[Rynjin]

Spoilers!

[demontroll]

Assuming a successful theft of a minor item, where the shop owner doesn't have the time to personally track down the thief, Bounty Hunters could be notified.

The magic shop owner may have powerful friends, such as angels or devils.

If the shop pays taxes, they can ask the local authorities for justice.

Probably the worst thing, would be for the thief to be black listed, so they cannot enter another magic shop without being apprehended. Descriptions of the thief and known associates could be magically sent world wide.

Magic Items would be inventoried and arcane marked, so it is easy to scry their location.

There could be anti-theft magic, so items are cursed until the shop owner removes the curse when the item is sold.

[Xzaral]

Have the PCs do an adventure where a magic shop hires them to recover an item back for a backer. Make sure not to discourage the PCs from doing all sorts of horrible things to the villains, and let the PCs rob them of everything as long as they bring back X item to the shopkeep.

You now have the story of what happens when the PCs try to rob a magic item shop.

[Fake Healer]

GM fiat usually suffices...who in their right mind would pull something that would get a GM to have to make up defenses for a magic store ad hoc? GMs can make up all kinds of stuff and dealers in magical wares have a lot of money to protect their stuff. I say use the ol' noggin and come up with something new each time.

[rat_ bastard]

Decoys, enchantments, guards, magic, magic, magic, the actual goods viewable only by appointment, payments and services to unsavory people, a super warded and guarded vault, only carrying a certain amount of product and just about anything els you can imagine.

But mostly only making magic items instead of carrying a ready stock, so if you want a +3 sword you go to the guild and shell out for its creation (or modification) then wait the requisite amount of time. Don't like it? don't sneer at the party crafter when he asks for 10% over cost.

[Skeletal Steve]

You guys are talking about all of this. You know what I see? Shadowrun in Golarion. And it sounds AWESOME. Come on, a group of PC's as hardened criminals planning and executing a magic bank heist against like the Church of Abadar?

That would be great! Or even against an evil dragon's hoard he has secured that funds his empire for good characters. I wouldn't be trying to discourage them from doing it. Sure it might be hard, but it would be an interesting plot hook!

[Lincoln Hills]

"The Heist" is a very good, but very underused, basic plot. It's underused mainly because the GM has to think of every quick solution (from anti-magic shell to Use Magic Device), while coming up with a reason that his NPCs have not blocked off some of the more dramatically appropriate solutions.

The other downside, though, is that after a really major heist, you might have to go to ground on another plane - if even that will be enough - just to fence your goods and enjoy the profits.

[Skeletal Steve]

Which is exactly why it's good. Even after they pull the Heist off, the magic shop owners may skip going after the party if they go to another plane, and instead go after friends and family that got left behind...

[Ross Byers]

Isn't this exactly what the secret chest spell is for?

But yeah, I imagine most magic item shops don't keep much actually in stock - besides getting robbed, that's a lot of cash to tie up in assets to have a reasonable spread of items.

I imagine most magic shops to maybe have a few things on hand, probably stored in lead-lined dimensionally anchored vault or a secret chest (for which the focus is stored overnight in said vault). Most items are either manufactured on commission, sold on consignment from the current owner (who retains possession until sold), or bought from the magic shop in the next town over from their small stock on hand.

Edit - This assumes the shop in on the relatively poor material plane. If you've plane shifted to the City of Brass, Axis, or some other magical metropolis to do your shopping, they might have more bits in stock. But they also have Efreet, Inevitables, or some other high-level police that would be a bit better at deterring theft than your typical town guard.

[Tirisfal]

Maybe this?

[spalding]

You know how gun stores aren't robbed that often?

Hm...

[Zhayne]

Simple. Don't make random merchandise that few people can afford and fewer still can use and put it out on shelves for people to see and get tempted by.

Make items on commission. Buyer pays you up front and brings you the base item (if necessary, like a masterwork weapon), you use half for labor and overhead and half for profit. Process done, hand him the completed object and thank him for his business.

[NeoSeraphi]

I know how my DM used to guard magic shops, because I actually robbed one once. (True neutral beguiler).

I went up to the counter and asked to see the shopkeeper's Ioun stones that he had in stock. The shopkeeper picked up a large crate of them from behind the register and was going to hand me the one I wanted, but I cast entice gift on him and he handed the entire thing to me, then I quickly invisibilitied myself and left.

Later, I was investigating my stock (Detect magic doesn't let you identify magic items in 3.5 like it does in Pathfinder, so I had to try each one out to figure out what they did). My DM got me good for this. She had some of the magic items end up being cursed. So when I put them over my head, I was subjected to their curses. I discovered that of the 10 different colors I tried on, 3 of them were cursed (but I successfully identified all of them).

The 3 that were cursed I didn't know were cursed until they were floating over my head, so my character was afflicted by all three curses. The first darkened my heart, pushing me towards evil over the course of 24 hours. The second corrupted my body, altering my gender over the course of 24 hours. The third was a horrible curse that left my character nauseated as long as he was affected by it. Thankfully, the cleric in the party managed to break the nausea curse immediately, but he had only prepared one remove curse for the day, so I had to put up with the rest of the curses for the rest of the day.

I went back to the shop in disguise and as it turns out, the shopkeeper had a special pair of lenses infused with arcane sight that was tuned to the curses he used, so that he could tell with a glance which items were cursed and which weren't, and he had a wand of remove curse behind the desk to cast on items before he sold them.

And that is how magic item shops are protected in my DM's world. We never tried to rob one again.

[Joesi]

Conversely, and probably more difficult: What can PLAYERS do to keep from getting robbed? I guess the DM should just be nice to them unless the player starts stealing things or something?

I can't help but empathize with a character who doesn't feel like his random little house (or even guarded fort) is a safe place to keep hundreds/thousands of gold worth of valuable tools/weapons/items and such.

How does kingmaker deal with stuff like thefts, for instance?

[the David]

I'd let them store their items in a safe location. In Golarion, you couldn't get any safer than the temple of Abadar.
Most temples would have their own supply of potions and scrolls, along with a few relics that are not for sale. Any mage guild could dabble in selling potions and scrolls. Most items could be commisioned, as long as you can find someone who can craft it for you.

[DonDuckie]

Ring gates: pass a note with the order through, send magic stuff from secret location. Big stuff in a bag of holding or the like.

Ongoing contracts with the local Assissin's Guild.

[blackbloodtroll]

Magic shops in Golarion?

[CalebTGordan]

In one game the items were never brought out to be viewed unless the gold needed to buy it was shown to the shop owner. You then sat in a secure room that you couldn't teleport into or out of, with your weapons and gear held by an attendant outside the door. The item was brought to you and you were allowed to look at it before deciding to buy it.

If you asked for too many items without buying them, the owner kicked you out. If you tried to steal, what gear you left at the door would be gone and big brutes would be well armed to handle you. If you made it past them, the local law enforcement wouldn't have a hard time finding you for some odd reason. Your name and likeness was spread everywhere and you would have to either skip town or find really shady places to stay.

[blackbloodtroll]

If it were Faerun, then likely the shopkeeper is some random epic level badass.

That is common in that setting.