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I hate the Christmas tree effect. I really do.
I don't like the fact that I'm basically forced to pick the same generic magical equipment over and over again as I level just to stay viable; cloaks of resistance, +blah weapon, +meh armor, and all the rest.
I want actual *magical* items. It's gotten to the point that I will actually refuse to use the standard Big Six items in games I play in; when the inevitable cloak of resistance turns up, I'm always the last one to claim it, if I ever do. I'll usually end up saving the items and than selling them once we get to a big city.
Naturally, this produces the risk of a short shelf life, but I like doing it. I like to actually *like* my magical gear. To that end I do end up doing one of two things, or both:
1. Depending on the build, I'll spend a feat or two to get a Saving Throw boost (Iron Will et al).
2. Spend extra money to have a party member (if I can't craft myself) add secondary Christmas Tree enchantments to my cooler, more interesting gear.
Naturally, number two is expensive and results in less gear over all, but meh.
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Lots of people feel this way. There are tons of threads addressing this topic from many different angles. Many people have made rules, either at home or published, to change this aspect of the game.
I've even done it myself.
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As Blueluck says, you're far from alone. WotC wrote a whole edition to solve this problem, among others. :)
As Blueluck says, you're far from alone. WotC wrote a whole edition to solve this problem, among others. :)
True. Sadly, WotC went too far. I liked the effort, but ugh.
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I've never bought a cloak of resistance. Plenty of things give resistance bonuses to saves.
You need a +1 weapon or armor to get any other bonus, but there's lots of weapon and armor bonuses to choose from; I don't think there's any to be particularly attached to like a cloak of resistance usually makes you.
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I've never bought a cloak of resistance. Plenty of things give resistance bonuses to saves.
You need a +1 weapon or armor to get any other bonus, but there's lots of weapon and armor bonuses to choose from; I don't think there's any to be particularly attached to like a cloak of resistance usually makes you.
My issue isn't receiving magic weapons. It's the fact that as I level, I can't function without them.
The game is designed with the expectation that the character will receive AC boosting, stat boosting, and saving throw boosting items. So much so that that's usually all anyone has. It's dull.
Being required to use these items means my character can't use the actually cool items; that cloak of thee arachnae is awesome, but I can't afford to lose my cloak of resistance +3.
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This sounds more of a problem with how you have elected to play and less about how bad the rules are. In our game there is very little of the "must have" magic for everyone. I say not much because the fighter does tend to like his +X weapon, but it is not like the magic items are outlined for us or some such.
I would say work with your GM to address this within your game. Work together to find a solution to help make it more fun for you all.
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This sounds more of a problem with how you have elected to play and less about how bad the rules are.
I disagree completely.
Sure, a GM could completely ignore the CR rules and select encounters that are easy enough for characters to win without having any "save or die" spells thrown at them, without having to hit really high monster AC, without having PCs die because monsters always hit their low AC, without having monsters always survive every spell the PCs use because the PC spellcasters have pathetic save DCs, etc.
This usually means sticking to encounters that have CRs below the party's ECL. That means getting really low XP, so the GM should probably ignore the XP and Leveling rules too.
So, sure, a GM could "elect to play" in a style that utilizes very little of the "must have" magical items. But to say that it's not a problem with the rules is going too far.
The only way to "elect to play" such a style is to completely ignore the "bad" rules and replace most of them with houserules that work better, so I would say this is very much a problem with "how bad the rules are".
I hate the Christmas tree effect. I really do.
I don't like the fact that I'm basically forced to pick the same generic magical equipment over and over again as I level just to stay viable; cloaks of resistance, +blah weapon, +meh armor, and all the rest.
I want actual *magical* items. It's gotten to the point that I will actually refuse to use the standard Big Six items in games I play in; when the inevitable cloak of resistance turns up, I'm always the last one to claim it, if I ever do. I'll usually end up saving the items and than selling them once we get to a big city.
Naturally, this produces the risk of a short shelf life, but I like doing it. I like to actually *like* my magical gear. To that end I do end up doing one of two things, or both:
1. Depending on the build, I'll spend a feat or two to get a Saving Throw boost (Iron Will et al).
2. Spend extra money to have a party member (if I can't craft myself) add secondary Christmas Tree enchantments to my cooler, more interesting gear.
Naturally, number two is expensive and results in less gear over all, but meh.
Yep!
100% with you. It is annoying to see, bland. Some people chase it with such vigour.
A friend (equalizer) and I are really over it. Great, a ring +1, a cloak +2 and full plate +1, hold on, I am yawning.
7 hours 14 minutes ago, somebody started a thread on what is still a problem.
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I was very disappointed by ultimate equipment. Almost nothing it was worth a PC's gold to buy. I still love my 3.5 magic item compendium! I think the most important thing in it was the writers went on to say thY to keep things exciting with non big six items but still allow the use of big six items to prevent you from failing to meet expectations, they let you combine a big six item with another item with out the 150% price on the second item, they would still be regular price on the same item, in the same slot. Also listing alternate slots for the big six items was also nice.
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Sure, a GM could completely ignore the CR rules and select encounters that are easy enough for characters to win without having any "save or die" spells thrown at them, without having to hit really high monster AC, without having PCs die because monsters always hit their low AC, without having monsters always survive every spell the PCs use because the PC spellcasters have pathetic save DCs, etc.This usually means sticking to encounters that have CRs below the party's ECL. That means getting really low XP, so the GM should probably ignore the XP and Leveling rules too.
So, sure, a GM could "elect to play" in a style that utilizes very little of the "must have" magical items. But to say that it's not a problem with the rules is going too far.
The only way to "elect to play" such a style is to completely ignore the "bad" rules and replace most of them with houserules that work better, so I would say this is very much a problem with "how bad the rules are".
Well, you can use more than one critter in an encounter. I'm finding that a single Creature can be taken out by my group, even when I'm running something crazy, like throwing a CR9 animal (Giant Snapping Turtle) at my 4 player lvl 3 group.
Through ingenious rules use (which I'm hesitant to allow, but it IS RAW), they killed it via 1 point of Bleed Damage, use the Grease to keep it from following them (hitting the feet, and it eventually failing it's saves) while being faster than it, but staying close enough to keep provoking it to follow, and the fact that it simply couldn't heal itself or get away while they Acid Orb's it when it pulled into it's shell for safety.
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Thank you Trevor, you're observant as always. Here, have a cookie and greet your mom from me. You're really doing great lately, which makes me glad.
More to the point: CTE in 3E is one of those "unfixable" problems, because throwing the magic item system upside down would require altering the very paradigm of the game to the degree which would render it so much different from 3E baseline that nobody would buy the ruleset apart from vocal forum minority. You would end up not with "3.5 with tweaks" but with another FantasyCraft/Trailblazer/13th Age... which, for good and bad, wasn't something Paizo was interested in. People come to 3.5 expecting +1 swords and rings of protection, because that's what the last 13 years of playing the game accustomed them to.
I remember for the longest time as a fighter, not having a Cloak of Resistance until around level 15. While my will save at the time wasn't the highest (I think I had a 35% chance to pass unmodified?), between Improved Iron Will, Shake It Off (Everyone but the wizard took it), and the Cleric's buffs, I actually only ever failed a save twice, with one re-rolled and passed thanks to Iron Will. Which, I'm alright with teamwork prevailing. I did end up finding a cloak of resistance, but after using it for a bit, I honestly missed using my cape of the mountebank to surprise bad guys and ended up switching back.
Admittedly, a cloak of resistance +5 is certainly nice to have and I'd never turn one down. But, I don't mind getting some help from my fellow players instead, as I really don't mind us all working together to defeat someone. Not to say there is or isn't a problem, but I've never felt pressured to have to "keep up" with the big six.
Thank you Trevor, you're observant as always. Here, have a cookie and greet your mom from me. You're really doing great lately, which makes me glad.
More to the point: CTE in 3E is one of those "unfixable" problems, because throwing the magic item system upside down would require altering the very paradigm of the game to the degree which would render it so much different from 3E baseline that nobody would buy the ruleset apart from vocal forum minority. You would end up not with "3.5 with tweaks" but with another FantasyCraft/Trailblazer/13th Age... which, for good and bad, wasn't something Paizo was interested in. People come to 3.5 expecting +1 swords and rings of protection, because that's what the last 13 years of playing the game accustomed them to.
You know my mother is dead. Why do you keep trying to hurt me?
Are you determined to cause pain or something? Because I disagreed with you on some posts?
I remember for the longest time as a fighter, not having a Cloak of Resistance until around level 15. While my will save at the time wasn't the highest (I think I had a 35% chance to pass unmodified?), between Improved Iron Will, Shake It Off (Everyone but the wizard took it), and the Cleric's buffs, I actually only ever failed a save twice, with one re-rolled and passed thanks to Iron Will. Which, I'm alright with teamwork prevailing. I did end up finding a cloak of resistance, but after using it for a bit, I honestly missed using my cape of the mountebank to surprise bad guys and ended up switching back.
Admittedly, a cloak of resistance +5 is certainly nice to have and I'd never turn one down. But, I don't mind getting some help from my fellow players instead, as I really don't mind us all working together to defeat someone. Not to say there is or isn't a problem, but I've never felt pressured to have to "keep up" with the big six.
There are better cloaks, but they don't buff the basics, unless they are truly great items, artifacts, that sort of thing.
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CTE in 3E is one of those "unfixable" problems, because throwing the magic item system upside down would require altering the very paradigm of the game to the degree which would render it so much different from 3E baseline that nobody would buy the ruleset apart from vocal forum minority. You would end up not with "3.5 with tweaks" but with another FantasyCraft/Trailblazer/13th Age...
That's not quite true. While it wasn't the best d20 product, and it certainly had its share of flaws, Iron Heroes managed to throw the magic item system upside down without altering the very paradigm of the game. I mean, it was still wholly recognizable as "3.5 with tweaks" with a firm 3e baseline...
Other dms have gone this way too, the giant secret is that... we don't have to play christmas tree games. At least not bland christmas trees.
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CTE in 3E is one of those "unfixable" problems, because throwing the magic item system upside down would require altering the very paradigm of the game to the degree which would render it so much different from 3E baseline that nobody would buy the ruleset apart from vocal forum minority. You would end up not with "3.5 with tweaks" but with another FantasyCraft/Trailblazer/13th Age...That's not quite true. While it wasn't the best d20 product, and it certainly had its share of flaws, Iron Heroes managed to throw the magic item system upside down without altering the very paradigm of the game. I mean, it was still wholly recognizable as "3.5 with tweaks" with a firm 3e baseline...
Sure, and it made Mike Mearls so much money that he quit WotC and lived a happy life with his dog oh wait :)
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Thank you Trevor, you're observant as always. Here, have a cookie and greet your mom from me. You're really doing great lately, which makes me glad.
More to the point: CTE in 3E is one of those "unfixable" problems, because throwing the magic item system upside down would require altering the very paradigm of the game to the degree which would render it so much different from 3E baseline that nobody would buy the ruleset apart from vocal forum minority. You would end up not with "3.5 with tweaks" but with another FantasyCraft/Trailblazer/13th Age... which, for good and bad, wasn't something Paizo was interested in. People come to 3.5 expecting +1 swords and rings of protection, because that's what the last 13 years of playing the game accustomed them to.
You know my mother is dead. Why do you keep trying to hurt me?
Are you determined to cause pain or something? Because I disagreed with you on some posts?
Sorry there, wasn't my intent. I've had no idea, then again, I don't monitor family status of everybody around. Maybe except TOZ.
I see magical items more as advanced equipment. Magic items are the "technology" of DnD/Pathfinder worlds, I pick a +3 amulet of natural armor in Pathfinder as I pick a form fitted armor in Shadowrun.
The actual wondrous treasures would be artifacts.
The flaw is ,imo , rather written into both the D&d/pathfinder rules, but also its "standard assumptions" culture.
However, that doesnt mean you cant work around it ; stuff like E6/p6, and low magic campaigns ...or even, if youre willing to do the work, reflavouring of the magic item system ...can do wonders.
What I did for my rise of the runelords game was reflavour the "bulk stanard magic items"... Instead of magic swords, armour and cloaks of resistance, i gave evey party member a "runemark" ; this automatically gave (levelled) bonuses to to hit, damage, ac and resistance throws, and I even added a few daily uses of "typical" spell powers to save the party buying/building the typical hordes of wands of CLW (etc)
That allowed me to concentrate on worrying about plot (and giving out fewer but more interestingly thematic magic items) without having to worry about changing the challenge ratings of encounters.
It seems to have worked very well. The party are far more attached to the magical items they have, and are far pess worried about looting bodies (apart from the party thief, naturally...)
in addition to the millions of reasons all of us hate I will add this one more.
it is completely unrealistic. If you had so much money that you could afford items that warp or change physics as we know, why aren't you living on an island that you own with 20 bodyguards and 200 attractive girls/guys who all want to serve you in whatever manner pleases you most. You certainly could do it. But no, the game is based on you spending money on such an item in the hopes that your team (who if evil aligned is as likely to kill you for ur share of the gold) will get together again to invest in u getting more and more wealth. However if you ever by some miracle get and keep that wealth the game is over right there because ur going to die very soon to a monster. Finally, by the time you get to a point where you would say ive had enough im retiring... Spiritual beings from hell, heaven, etc OR a dragon that can destroy countries comes in to ruin ur life again. No one would ever become a pathfinder in such a world FOR WEALTH. For glory, religious devotion, the search for power, all might be reasonable but wealth would be a vain pursuit. I guess you could always go pounce on some level 2 goblins for a few bucks but where would the fun be in that?
Normal people retire after their first or second adventure more often than not. Only those who are in it for the long haul become very famous adventurers. It's a calling you're born with, no one gives it to you. Firebrand and all that. :P
Though I will say the not christmas tree effect that is being required to have a lot of specific magic items is grossly exaggerated and often believed by people who buy too much magic too quickly and then they struggle and feel like if they didn't have that magic stuff (because they are struggling) they'd have no hope, when it is in fact the fact they're blowing cash on expensive magic items with very minor benefits instead of more useful tools.
Humorously in a traditional party (one with a cleric and wizard, a skillmonkey, and a martial) you can largely ignore most expensive weapon and armor enhancements and buffs and get more mileage out of low level ones. To put it into perspective, in core you can only purchase up to +2 weapons, +3 armors/shields, +4 stat/resistance items, +2 deflection/natural armor items reliably, and such items are plenty for even mid-high levels. A mage and priest with a few pearls of power can largely replace most of this equipment by as early as 3rd level.
Magic weapon and greater magic weapon gives you +X enhancement (with the latter lasting 1 hour/level).
Magic vestment gives you +X on armor/shields (lasts 1 hour/level).
Bull's Strength and similar spells lasts 10 rounds/level and give a +4 bonus (worth 16,000 gp).
Shield of Faith and Barkskin gives up to a +5 deflection/natural bonus respectively.
Pearls of Power specifically purchased to dump more of these spells on your party can be crafted for 500, 2,000, and 4,500 gp respectively, which are drastically less expensive than actually purchasing the actual magical items.
Alternatively you can just do what I do and carry a few potions for certain occasions. I generally grab a few masterwork weapons with a few special materials, a few potions and call it a day.
I like the christmas tree effect. Not because I like buying items, but because I like playing a spellcaster. It allows me to add the magic item effects without buying them (or buying them cheaper). I still go for the bonuses, I just try to time them correctly. To be honest, going for the extend spell/potion feat/discovery has played out my current and last character, and I may try something different. I don't know if casting spells would alow you to feel more interested in getting stat/save/attack bonuses, but it's another option.
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Another thing that contributes to this problem is the pricing of magic items. Things that give interesting abilities or cast spells or spell-like effects are extremely expensive, while the stat boosters are relatively cheap. Consider that a +3 Cloak of Resistance costs 9000 and gives a constant, solid bonus to all saves while a Cloak of Arachnidia costs nearly 50% more and gives spider climb and a situational bonus to poison saves.
If I were inclined to discourage the stat boosters I'd make them much more expensive, while the flavor items would be much cheaper.
Another thing that contributes to this problem is the pricing of magic items. Things that give interesting abilities or cast spells or spell-like effects are extremely expensive, while the stat boosters are relatively cheap. Consider that a +3 Cloak of Resistance costs 9000 and gives a constant, solid bonus to all saves while a Cloak of Arachnidia costs nearly 50% more and gives spider climb and a situational bonus to poison saves.
If I were inclined to discourage the stat boosters I'd make them much more expensive, while the flavor items would be much cheaper.
I think that instead of discouraging stat boosters I'd try to price the other items more competitively. A lot of items could be priced more competitively if you lowered their caster levels or made them X/day.
That being said, technically speaking the cloak of arachnida is actually very competitively priced. It seem to have a lot of ad-hoc reductions. It's CL 6th constant spider climb, a 1/day CL 6th web spell, and a few kicker effects as well. 24/7 spider climb all by itself would be a lot more expensive than the cloak itself, so it's clearly had some ad-hoc reductions to make it more attractive.
I'm a big fan of making x/day magic items. Those can generally be made on the cheap (x/day = 1/5th the item's price per charge).
If you feel the need to take Cloaks of Resistance over other, more flavorful cloaks, just take a page from 4e D&D. There, all neck items (cloaks, amulets, necklaces, etc) basically include the effects of a Cloak of Resistance, along with whatever other special abilities they have. So something like the Elven Cloak (PFs Cloak of Elvenkind) grants not only a Stealth bonus, but a bonus to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.
Maybe all magic rings, in addition to their normal effects, could also grant a deflection bonus to AC.
For stat enhancers, throw in an additional ability. Maybe items that boost Strength or Constitution also grant the ability reroll a Fortitude save 1/day or more. Same with Intelligence/Dexterity with Reflex, and Wisdom/Charisma with Will.
Granted, throwing in extra effects would mess with Wealth by Level. So either ignore the prices of the extra effects, or just ignore Wealth by Level.
If you feel the need to take Cloaks of Resistance over other, more flavorful cloaks, just take a page from 4e D&D. There, all neck items (cloaks, amulets, necklaces, etc) basically include the effects of a Cloak of Resistance, along with whatever other special abilities they have. So something like the Elven Cloak (PFs Cloak of Elvenkind) grants not only a Stealth bonus, but a bonus to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.
Maybe all magic rings, in addition to their normal effects, could also grant a deflection bonus to AC.
For stat enhancers, throw in an additional ability. Maybe items that boost Strength or Constitution also grant the ability reroll a Fortitude save 1/day or more. Same with Intelligence/Dexterity with Reflex, and Wisdom/Charisma with Will.
Granted, throwing in extra effects would mess with Wealth by Level. So either ignore the prices of the extra effects, or just ignore Wealth by Level.
Though, if you were to do that, I'd almost consider just applying a level-based scaling bonus to attack/damage/saves/ac/ect and just not have magic items provide that boost. I'd thought about doing that, but I don't know enough about WBL assumptions to just redo WBL based on that.
If you feel the need to take Cloaks of Resistance over other, more flavorful cloaks, just take a page from 4e D&D. There, all neck items (cloaks, amulets, necklaces, etc) basically include the effects of a Cloak of Resistance, along with whatever other special abilities they have. So something like the Elven Cloak (PFs Cloak of Elvenkind) grants not only a Stealth bonus, but a bonus to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.
Maybe all magic rings, in addition to their normal effects, could also grant a deflection bonus to AC.
For stat enhancers, throw in an additional ability. Maybe items that boost Strength or Constitution also grant the ability reroll a Fortitude save 1/day or more. Same with Intelligence/Dexterity with Reflex, and Wisdom/Charisma with Will.
Granted, throwing in extra effects would mess with Wealth by Level. So either ignore the prices of the extra effects, or just ignore Wealth by Level.
A cute house rule I've seen was keeping their prices the same but for the static modifiers apply the 50% markup in reverse. So if you have a cloak of arachnida (14,000 gp) and wanted to add a +2 resistance bonus to it (4,000 gp), it would only add +2,000 gp to the price (as opposed to +6,000 gp which is normal for the 50% markup). This basically means you don't get the bonuses for free (which allows you to acquire said items at your own pace rather than by level, which I think can be nice for certain game concerns) while rewarding players for having something a bit different from each other.
The cost of the +X needs to be less than the highest other effect on the item though (so you could make a +1 ring of feather falling of resistance for 2,500 gp, but you couldn't use a ring of feather falling to cut the cost of a +2-5 resistance bonus in half :P).
There is no christmas tree effect in my game. The majority of bonuses characters get from magic items, they get as bonuses and abilities as they level up in my game. So each character has just a couple magic items over the course of their career that they actually keep, and becomes part of their story, instead of +2 sword number 98. And I have to say, for me at least it makes magic items cooler and more interesting when they do show up.
The issue is of course that CRs are determined presuming that creatures have a to-hit that can hit you some of the time (but not all, so you need a certain AC for them to not kill), an AC that you can hit some of the time but not all, saving throws that succeed against the PCs abilities some of the time but not all... etc. And these calculations are made assuming you have certain equipment.
Probably the best, but not easy on the GM, way of doing handling parties that are not doing the typical BIG SIX approach to play is taking your party's actual abilities and equipment into account and adding or subtracting +1-3 from their various pertinent stats, and/or using lower CR creatures but more of them, etc. Since there are mythic rules that will be coming out soon, another trick would be to use a lower CR creature--that have more appropriate to-hit, etc. for the party's actual stats, but make them mythic which broadens their abilities and may make certain abilities more powerful without amping up their stats so much that they cannot be defeated without a very specific set of gear.
I think what makes me most sad about the Big Six issue is when you as a GM get very excited about putting a very flavorful, unique piece of gear, and the PCs pass it up and sell it because they'd rather keep their cloak of resistance, etc. (On the other hand, I think the magic item my players got MOST excited about was a magic pancake griddle I had them find, so there are still exceptions. ;) )
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Honestly, I think this is up to how the GM gives out treasure. In my campaign, every city doesn't have every minor magical item in the city. There are no standard prices either. Players assume they have x amount of money and can by y item. I've made finding treasure in the game more valuable than buying items in the game.
As a GM, one could create similar but more flavorful items that do something similar but at the same time unique, which has been stated before. If the GM concentrates on story and make items special in a way that it doesn't matter if they have more magical items etc.
One of the players in my game has made every piece of her armor out of enemies with hardened body. Pretty much Hide/Leather.. The armor is very unique in the game and styled to her liking. One of the things I do as a GM is "compliment" her armor from foes and other NPCs etc... At a high level that armor has only been enchanted up to +2, because they don't have anyone in their party that could enchant it, and the only NPC willing to do it for a hefty price lived far far away. So it's more on how the GM fills in the storyline.
If players feel like their GM is giving a Christmas tree effect, they should really talk to the GM.
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Yeah this effect is quite bothering. As a GM, I tried keeping the flavor of certain items by doing two things:
1) Buying items has to be roleplayed, with special shops I premade for this scenario.
2)Every item has a unique name, look and some special stats. This could be some fitting X/day spells, like Charm Person on a Cloak of Charisma or some of the requirements, or restricted functions fitting their origin. An item looted from some drow might not work in full daylight for example.
It still isn't perfect, but it kinda helps giving some unique feeling to items again.
Something that's very important to realize when it comes to buying items is that the magic item rules are based on the idea of availability not by store but by community. A metropolis - the largest cities in the world - in core only has a 16,000 gp market norm. In general there's only about 2-3 of a given item of this cost or below available for purchase in the whole community. It's not per shop, it's per community. The whole community.
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Sure, and it made Mike Mearls so much money that he quit WotC and lived a happy life with his dog oh wait :)
Whether the book was successful or not is irrelevant to my point because, while the book was not a success, it none-the-less showed the problem could be addressed without turning the game (i.e. 3rd edition) into something else (like you asserted it would do)...
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Sure, and it made Mike Mearls so much money that he quit WotC and lived a happy life with his dog oh wait :)Whether the book was successful or not is irrelevant to my point because, while the book was not a success, it none-the-less showed the problem could be addressed without turning the game (i.e. 3rd edition) into something else (like you asserted it would do)...
So, you would prefer for Paizo to go out of business printing the game nobody would buy. Man, that's, like, harsh in the current economy! ;-)
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A book can fail to sell enough copies to make money, for reasons that have nothing to do with lack of a market. My recollection of the timing is a little vague, but I seem to recall that just shortly after Iron Heroes was released, rumors of something called "Fourth Edition" began to be heard...
Iron Heroes: published July 2005
4th Edition D&D: announced August 2007, published June 2008.
But. . .it's Christmas!
I'm not dissing Iron Heroes (I think I playtested and developed it, or maybe it was another Mearls book... Book of Iron Might?), and it was successful enough that another guy bought the rights to it and released some support products for it. I'm just quoting dates. :)
It is hard to come up with an implementation of magic items that satisfies these two competing goals:
1. Provide powerful, desirable, legendary items that cause player characters AND players to drool into their laps in anticipation.
2. Maintain game balance.
It's a problem that is sort of built into the whole game concept.