Question is as noted above. Instead of the traditional Melee Guy, Divine Caster, Arcane Caster, and Skill Guy setup, what about a party consisting of four of the following:
Alchemist
Bard
Inquisitor
Magus
Summoner
It does seem to me like with the right choice of archetypes/builds to make sure all your bases are covered, you would have a pretty solid and very diverse group. Each of the characters has some way of doing physical combat, (especially with the right buffs in play) and up to 6th level spells gives them plenty of other options.
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Healing's sometimes a little shaky/dependent on CLW wands, but yeah, that works fine. I've played with pretty close to that kind of party before and it works out fine if you build for it.
You do still build some characters for various roles to some degree (especially frontliner stuff), but it's very workable.
The party I played in with a Synthesist Summoner tank, Kensai Magus burst damage specialist, Alchemist ranged combat guy, and Witch primary caster was very effective indeed...and you could've replaced the Witch and still done a solid party (maybe even more solid if you replaced 'em with a Bard).
What sort of game? For something RP heavy or with fewer combat situations per "day", I think you would have a great group. Heck, Alchemists can do stupid damage, and bards and magi pull their own weight quite well.
Also, I hesitate to call a summoner (depending on build) may or may not be a half-caster.
I definately think it can be quite viable. Particularly with the summoner in the list, the only potential problem (not having a solid tank) is resolved. I find groups that have mixed casters are often very successful because of the flexibility of each character.
The problem is that the summoner is going to whine all the time about his eidolon not getting healed.
If you added a Hospitaler Paladin you could cover healing pretty good too.
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The party in my game ALMOST has this. We have a Summoner, Magus, Bard, Arcane Trixter, and a Monk... The party is actually really effective. The Magus and the Summoner actually hit more than the monk it seems. The monk has been mainly there for CMB type combat. The Bard provides lots of bonuses extra attack and damage for everyone, and is also the healer. I think this has been one of the best group combinations that I have GMd for.
The problem is that the summoner is going to whine all the time about his eidolon not getting healed.
If you added a Hospitaler Paladin you could cover healing pretty good too.
The summoner can heal his own eidolon if he is so concerned about it. Regardless, the alchemist, bard, and inquisitor all have access to healing spells. If you have a bard, inquisitor, alchemist, and summoner, you have plenty of healing in that party. Heck the magus could even go hexcrafter and take the healing hex if you are really worried about it.
Yeah, this party seems good. Even ignoring that all of them have perfectly fine BAB, two of them (summoner and inquisitor) have access to some kind of other creature to do battle for them (inquisitor with animal domain for an Animal companion).
A good number of them have access to some form of summoning (alchemist can use ...vomit swarm... and has an archetype for summon nature's allies) I think only the magus and maybe the inquisitor cannot place more bodies on the field, and both of those have access to ways of ramping up the damage of their full attacks.
Plus only the inquisitor and alchemist cannot qualify for arcane strike.
All 3/4 Caster is really effective from I've seen. I was in game with Bard, Inquisitor, Summoner and Magus. I found we were very powerful once we got to 4th level. No issue at all.
As long as you make sure certain spells are covered, you should be all right. Here I am thinking in particular of lesser restoration, see invisibility and dispel magic: better to get them late than not have them in the party at all. I've found that even a high-level party can be shafted if nobody in the group remembered there might be a need to heal ability damage, see invisible foes, or undo highly unpleasant spells.
Potions of lesser restoration are 50 gp so that can at least help out parties that are low on full-casters.
Honestly I think the party sounds pretty sweet. At first glance it seems very well rounded.
As long as you make sure certain spells are covered, you should be all right. Here I am thinking in particular of lesser restoration, see invisibility and dispel magic: better to get them late than not have them in the party at all. I've found that even a high-level party can be shafted if nobody in the group remembered there might be a need to heal ability damage, see invisible foes, or undo highly unpleasant spells.
I largely agree with this, but like Ashiel demonstrated, there can always be options. For example, a half orc can take a feat that provides the scent ability, which can possibly help locate invisible enemies with some effort.
Well, that said, Alchemist and Inquisitor both get restoration, while all the 2/3 casters but the Magus get See Invisibility, and everyone but the Alchemist gets Dispel Magic. Most to the basic staple spells shouldn't be that hard to get.
I think a party like this is perfectly viable. Tactics will have to vary a bit from the norm, but with decent communication there shouldn't be any problems.
and everyone but the Alchemist gets Dispel Magic.
Alchemists can get the dispelling bomb discovery, which is in some ways better than the spell, mainly because you have as many available as you have bombs.
I actually like this set-up. My group plays this way a lot. We actually feel that these classes can be even better group than the traditional one. Each can contribute in more various ways. Some even over-lap a bit so if one does go down, you still have another to keep the buffs, heals, etc. going. This is also a really nice role-playing group--but who likes those anyway!
As long as you make sure certain spells are covered, you should be all right. Here I am thinking in particular of lesser restoration, see invisibility and dispel magic: better to get them late than not have them in the party at all. I've found that even a high-level party can be shafted if nobody in the group remembered there might be a need to heal ability damage, see invisible foes, or undo highly unpleasant spells.Potions of lesser restoration are 50 gp so that can at least help out parties that are low on full-casters.
Honestly I think the party sounds pretty sweet. At first glance it seems very well rounded.
It cost 300 gp but the point reamins the same, with good preparation and planing this group is viable.
In fact I think most combination of classes are viable
The minimum level/caster level is 1st. They cost 50 gp by the rules.
As long as you make sure certain spells are covered, you should be all right. Here I am thinking in particular of lesser restoration, see invisibility and dispel magic: better to get them late than not have them in the party at all. I've found that even a high-level party can be shafted if nobody in the group remembered there might be a need to heal ability damage, see invisible foes, or undo highly unpleasant spells.Potions of lesser restoration are 50 gp so that can at least help out parties that are low on full-casters.
Honestly I think the party sounds pretty sweet. At first glance it seems very well rounded.
It cost 300 gp but the point reamins the same, with good preparation and planing this group is viable.
In fact I think most combination of classes are viable
Yeah, the only real potential pitfall is if none of the characters take a vital spell. Though that can really be an issue for any group, and this setup has a lot more redundancy on the must-have spells than most.
The only class that casts Lesser Restoration at 1st level is Paladin. RAW, all potions purchased are assumed to be created by their most common class of casters -- potions of spells on the wizard/sorceror list are created by wizards, at the level that a normal wizard could cast that spell, even if it exists at a lower level on some other list. Similarly for cleric spells. Unless the DM allows there to be a paladin with brew potion as a feat, it's not going to fly.
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The only class that casts Lesser Restoration at 1st level is Paladin. RAW, all potions purchased are assumed to be created by their most common class of casters -- potions of spells on the wizard/sorceror list are created by wizards, at the level that a normal wizard could cast that spell, even if it exists at a lower level on some other list. Similarly for cleric spells. Unless the DM allows there to be a paladin with brew potion as a feat, it's not going to fly.
Could you give me a citation on that? I know it's true for Pathfinder Society as a house rule, but this is the rule on potions in the CRB.
An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
The only class that casts Lesser Restoration at 1st level is Paladin. RAW, all potions purchased are assumed to be created by their most common class of casters -- potions of spells on the wizard/sorceror list are created by wizards, at the level that a normal wizard could cast that spell, even if it exists at a lower level on some other list. Similarly for cleric spells. Unless the DM allows there to be a paladin with brew potion as a feat, it's not going to fly.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Lowest possible caster level is 1st. No matter who makes the item, it is still priced at 50 gp. Thus because of Paladins and Rangers the price of the following spells are 50 gp for CL 1 potions of them.
Delay Poison
Lesser Restoration
Resist Energy
Not surprising either. These are common aid spells that are essential to parties and you are pretty much screwed without. Divine scrolls of them are 25 gp. Potions of them are 50 gp. Wands of them are 750 gp. Regardless of which class makes them.
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Alchemist
Bard
Inquisitor
Magus
Summoner
With the right choices, an Alchemist or Summoner is a pretty decent fill-in for a full arcanist, and if you've got at least two of Paladin, Ranger and / or Inquisitor, you should be able to cover most of your healing bases.
An all Paladin / Ranger group could be a pretty buff 'half-caster' group.
Maybe I'm just not giving the class a fair chance, but I wouldn't count on a Magus to fill in for anything.
They can do very well with one caveat.
The players have to remember they are not necessarily as good as the specialist at their specialties.
It sounds stupid but:
I have seen a gish saving his spells for the BBEG but still trying to serve as a standard frontliner tank. Going toe-to-toe with the giant, standing in place, and trading full attack actions. And of course getting flattened in the process.
I've seen another gish badly lose a mage duel with a high level wizard. His defensive spells weren't good enough to stop the attacks. His offensive spells couldn't get past the defenses.
The only class that casts Lesser Restoration at 1st level is Paladin. RAW, all potions purchased are assumed to be created by their most common class of casters -- potions of spells on the wizard/sorceror list are created by wizards, at the level that a normal wizard could cast that spell, even if it exists at a lower level on some other list. Similarly for cleric spells. Unless the DM allows there to be a paladin with brew potion as a feat, it's not going to fly.
I could see a retired paladin who never got very far in the class deciding to help the cause by mass producing various potions and selling them cheaply on the market.
And of course each party member has less magical or martial potential than a specialist. But that is the advantage of the fact that pretty much each of their roles overlap. Keep up good teamwork by sticking together, and spread out the responsibility of spellcasting, and you should be able to handle most threats.
I could see a retired paladin who never got very far in the class deciding to help the cause by mass producing various potions and selling them cheaply on the market.
And of course each party member has less magical or martial potential than a specialist. But that is the advantage of the fact that pretty much each of their roles overlap. Keep up good teamwork by sticking together, and spread out the responsibility of spellcasting, and you should be able to handle most threats.
Well, it also doesn't matter who's making the potion. It's still only worth 50 gp because of the paladin spell list, even if it costs a cleric 150 gp to brew one.
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I would love to see a Party of the following.
Paladin, Ranger, Magus, Bard.
I think you'd have a pretty amazingly effective group. Paladin for combat healing, while the bard and Ranger provide your out of combat, your Paladin and Magus can be upfront facepunchers, while your bard is buffing and your ranger is picking things apart with his Longbow/Crossbow.
With this build, you've got blaster casting with Magus, you've got divine casting with Paladin and Ranger and you got buff/debuff casting with the bard.
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There have been discussions in the past about the viability of an all bard party, and it can work pretty well if you vary your bard types to intentionally balance things out.
I think those including rangers and paladins are missing the point of the discussion. It's not just about not having any full casters in the party. It's also about not having any full-BAB classes. ie A group where everyone is a 3/4 BAB partial casters.
So who are your front liners? Bard, magus, inquisitor, summoner's eidolon, and alchemist on mutagen can all be built for front line combat, but most won't have the AC for true tanking. Spells or other powers (ie inquisitor with the Trickery domain) that cause miss chances are probably your best bet for tanking.
Healers? Most of these classes can use wands, which should be enough.
DPR? Not a problem, especially from range.
Spell combat? As mentioned above, most of these classes get Dispel Magic. These guys are unlikely to keep up with a pure wizard in a mage duel, but if you just ready your arrows for when they start casting, you can avoid the mage duel and turn it into a martial vs mage fight. Just hope that your best dispeler can handle the anti-arrow spells.
Battlefield control? You'll have a little, but it'll probably be lacking compared to having a true controller caster. But it's not an essential party role, either.
Skills, buffs, party face? That's what most of these classes do best, so not an issue.