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A flowing monk can use this ability once per day per monk level, but no more than once per round.
Like Stunning Fist, that it replaces, there's a cap on how often a monk can use this ability. I don't see where your problem comes from.
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Redirection never states the trip attempt goes before the opponent attack is reslved.A monk doing his job is something to celebrate.Job schmob, tripping when you are attacked as an interrupt is broken with a capitol B.
I've see a lot of DMs homebrew a Reflex save to resist tripping and am seriously considering it myself.
Very important. I hadn't noticed that. it is a immediate action, but that don't make it go before the attacker action.
Still this seem a bit off:
Unbalancing Counter (Ex): At 2nd level, a flowing monk's attacks of opportunity render a struck creature flat-footed until the end of the flowing monk's next turn (Reflex DC 10 + 1/2 the monk's level + Wisdom modifier negates). This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.
"I get an a AoO, I make you flat footed, independently from damaging you or not." seem wrong. Or I am missing something there too?
I don't see anything that say that he need to damage the target.So the BEEG with DR/20 adamantine stand up, the monk make an attack of opportunity, hit him and without doing even 1 point of damage make it flat footed?
The BEEG is flat footed against everyone? (probable, but specifying that would have been a good thing.)
Even the need to hit the target is downplayed: "a flowing monk's attacks of opportunity render a struck creature flat-footed until the end of the flowing monk's next turn".
I would have greatly preferred something like "a flowing monk's attacks of opportunity, if he successfully hit the target, render a struck creature flat-footed until the end of the flowing monk's next turn" or some such, stressing the point that you need to hit the target.
At 8th level, a flowing monk can make both a reposition and a trip maneuver as part of a single immediate action with this ability. At 12th level, a flowing monk can use redirection against any opponent that attacks him in melee, even if the flowing monk is not threatening the opponent who attacks him.
Wow, so he can reposition the guy with the whip or polearm, while at the same time tripping it, without ever having him in range. Adn then people say that teh monks don't have wuxia powers.
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With Ki Throw, they can break the normal size limitations on trip by spending ki.
Can't trip legless or flying creatures though, and ki is a scant resource unless you blow a lot of feats on it. If you do, well, you have blown a lot of resources to be good at one thing. So you deserve to be good at it.
I too played all the way through CotCT. Was a very enjoyable Adventure Path. Though, there are several humanoid enemies in Book 6.
There were, which came as a relief to me! Still, my main role in the final boss-fight was not damaging Ileosa (I couldn't touch her AC and DR), it was tripping and tying down the other members of the party that failed their Will saves and turned against the rest of us.
At 8th level, a flowing monk can make both a reposition and a trip maneuver as part of a single immediate action with this ability. At 12th level, a flowing monk can use redirection against any opponent that attacks him in melee, even if the flowing monk is not threatening the opponent who attacks him.
Wow, so he can reposition the guy with the whip or polearm, while at the same time tripping it, without ever having him in range. Adn then people say that teh monks don't have wuxia powers.
What's wuxia about grabbing the end of a reach weapon and using it to pull the wielder off-balance? Sounds perfectly logical to me.
I'm running Rise of the Runelords and one of the characters is playing a Flowing Monk. Even bossfights are now NOTHING to my party because my monsters are always flat on their backs, followed by AOs for standing up, and finishing off with never getting their full round of attacks because they were too busy standing up!
Tripping Monks were broken in 3.0, even more broken in 3.5, and CONTINUE their broken streak here in Pathfinder.
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!
Well to come down against combat maneuvres is an early paizo standard. Good that this is changing a bit though.
On the 3.5 monk, the trip was very strong (good, because it required some investment), but there was 1 feat allowing you to attack from prone on no penalty, so there were ways around it.
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From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.
So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol.
Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.
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So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol..From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.
It only takes one. ;)
Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.
Sounds like he's not very good at it. >.>
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol.
Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.
Ogres with 5 HD (1 level or RHD more than standard ogres) qualify for Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 5 ranks, Climb 5 ranks.
Ogres without take 1 level Master of Many style Monk get for free.
Tripping is good against humanoids, but quickly becomes increasingly difficult against monsters as they get bigger, stronger, multi-legged, and fly.
So it looks like he's fighting the right opponents for trip tactics to work on. I wouldn't make it harder.
It only takes one. ;)So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol..From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.
You could even do it with one level of Unarmed Fighter. He'll get improved unarmed strike and a free style he doesn't have to meet the prerequisites for. And makes more sense do to the lack of alignment restriction.
If you hate tripping monks, then trip wizards!
Or stop giving monks bad bad drugs.
Or teach the monks to look where they are walking.
Or learn to love, not hate!Yes, I am mentally drunk while typing this :)
wheeeeeee
Be the water, my friend.
So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol.From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.
Well those ogres are meant to be mooks, cannon fodder sort of thing, for the most part. A ranger at his level would practically one-shot them, so really tripping them is not that bad. It's only an issue when the ones with character levels get tripped and then the rest of the party pile in and finish them off...because I am guessing that in damage dealing, this monk is not exactly stellar, right?
Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.
Yeah, I have met players like that. I don't play with them, though. The point of the game is for everyone to have fun, not just one person. Besides, isolate the monk and he will have a lot of trouble functioning.
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I have a tripping Fighter in one of my campaigns. I just trip him back all the time XD
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I'm running Rise of the Rune Lords. Unless he has built himself REALLY well, by section 4 the tripping monk will not be causing many problems. Trippers are very good at low levels, but especially in Rise will get worse in the latter parts of the module.
And for what it's worth, tripping Fighters or Fighter / Monks are almost strictly better. Polearms and Lore Warden bonuses, along with weapon training, make for much higher bonus values.
So let them have their fun; and let them feel useful. I had a "boss-ish" character one shotted because of a failed save to a spell, but I'm not complaining, that's just the wizard doing his job. Just let him enjoy his tactics until they get much, much more difficult; and realize that PCs enjoy being useful (even front-line melees :)).
Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.
It still doesn't look that bad to me. Optimizers get a kick out of being badass, and he choose an inferior specialization probably to hold back. He could've been a caster and wreaked all sorts of battlefield control from a safer distance, or hell, he could've optimized for damage. Instead his optimization is more about team play that allows the rest of the party to shine. And as the game scales into big strong monsters, he'll face the natural challenges of tripping.
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From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol.
Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.
I dont get how a monk has such a high level of success against anything but the goblins at the beggining of the adventure. Its actually really hard to trip things, especially as you get up in levels. Those ogres have huge bonuses (high strength, size bonuses ratial HD etc) to their CMD. How is the monk tripping them? My guess is that you used not standard stat generation and this monk has really high stats, because with a 15 point buy, i dont see how this happens.
Finally! A use for the prone shooter feat
Pew pew!
It's the tweaking fighters that always ruin my buzz.
Seriously I sympathize with you in the fact that I really like my games to be as realistic as possible (with the obvious exceptions), and for a house game I would probably tweak this item since you have brought it to my attention.
Since I have shifted to much more PFS games, I have learned I have to push my borders for suspension of disbelief much more regularly.
Tell me more Sitri, if you can.
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Tripping monks remind me that monks do have a place, and that place is making life miserable for bipedal equipment based people.
One of my players plays a monk, he was surrounded by shield and axe wielding dwarven juju zombies at one point.
Thanks to flurry, a round or two later, they were all on their asses, with no shields, and no axes.
Its what they do.
Deflect arrows and high ac is hilarious when someone says, just shoot him.
Early days, that may be quite difficult.
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Tell me more Sitri, if you can.
Sorry, I actually had a few drinks when I made this post and forgot which thread I was in. This first part, the joke, was meant for this thread and then for whatever reason I thought I was in the thread where the guy was talking about changes to the breastplate being unrealistic.
Ogre's only have an 18 CMD. Some of the specialized ones have around 25. The characters are approximately lvl 9 at that point. Those are EASY CMD's for that level. I would guess the character has a 50%+ chance to trip against boss fights and 90%+ on typical fights.
Keep in mind that when using unarmed strike (or any weapon) to trip, all bonus's to hit also go to cmb. This is how people get such high trip/sunder/disarm compared to the other combat moves.
I am aware, but a normal ogre is a CR 3 creature, ofcourse a level 9 monk and easily trip him. The 'boss orgres' or orgres with character levels in that part of the adventure have a cmd in the mid to high twenties. A level 9 monk built with a 15 point buy should have some significant trouble tripping them.
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A specialist monk, or especially a specialist Monk/Fighter, would have 0 trouble tripping a DC 30.
Let's go with a basic build for a Dwarf monk, 15 points, Manuever Master
Str: 16 (20, +2 level up, +2 item)
Int: 7
Wis: 16 (18, +2 item)
Dex: 14 (16, +2 item)
Con: 15
Chr: 5
Fury's Fall, Improved Trip, Greater Trip are relevant feats (probably combat reflexes and vicious stomp to get 2 AOOs as they fall, and Snake Style feat line so that if an opponent attempts to attack from prone and misses they provoke more AOOs)
So base: +9 (BAB for CMB is = my level)
+3 (Dex, Fury's Fall)
+4 (Wis, Swift action for manuever master)
+4 (Improved/Greater Improved Trip)
+2 (Red Ioun Stone, slotted into Wayfinder gives +2 to all CMB)
+1 (Amulet of Mighty Fist)
+5 (Strength)
-5 (Flurry of Manuevers for 2 additional manuevers possible)
+1 (cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone)
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either +29/+24 or +24/+24/+24/+19 on trips.
+2 Str / Dex belt (10000)
+2 Wis Headband (4000)
Red ioun stone + Wayfinder (5250)
Amulet of mighty fist +1 (4000)
Cracked Green Ioun Stone (4000)
Everything else dedicated to AC and Saves
And that's without trying terribly hard.
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I'm running Rise of the Runelords and one of the characters is playing a Flowing Monk. Even bossfights are now NOTHING to my party because my monsters are always flat on their backs, followed by AOs for standing up, and finishing off with never getting their full round of attacks because they were too busy standing up!
Tripping Monks were broken in 3.0, even more broken in 3.5, and CONTINUE their broken streak here in Pathfinder.
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!
I don't feel like reading 80+ posts to see if my answer is the same as most other people (which I will assume it probably will be).
Seriously you are going to pick on the monk out of all of the classes? I just don't get it. There is nothing wrong with the monk doing what he does best if he's built to do so. This isn't a game of YOU vs your players, this is a game of the PCs vs the NPC's. You seem to be taking this personally and you shouldn't be doing that as a GM.
If you are so worried about all the tripping going on, add more variation to your encounters and it doesn't have to be incorporeal, multi-legged, or flying. You could use terrain and mooks/minions to make it harder to get to your BBEG and keep the party busy without breaking the bank on difficulty.
Bottom line: Don't get all pissy when your players do well in combat.
I am aware, but a normal ogre is a CR 3 creature, ofcourse a level 9 monk and easily trip him. The 'boss orgres' or orgres with character levels in that part of the adventure have a cmd in the mid to high twenties. A level 9 monk built with a 15 point buy should have some significant trouble tripping them.Ogre's only have an 18 CMD. Some of the specialized ones have around 25. The characters are approximately lvl 9 at that point. Those are EASY CMD's for that level. I would guess the character has a 50%+ chance to trip against boss fights and 90%+ on typical fights.
Keep in mind that when using unarmed strike (or any weapon) to trip, all bonus's to hit also go to cmb. This is how people get such high trip/sunder/disarm compared to the other combat moves.
Nonetheless, shouldn't the only effective thing this character can do, which only works on some monsters, and gets worse as he levels, be taken away?
Some DMs need to learn it is perfectly fine if your PCs do awesome stuff. Mixing things up for them now and then is fine too, but you shouldn't take their awesome away. Don't think "how can I stop them from being cool?" but rather "What will challenge them and let them be cool?" If anything, something like this monk is a concern only because his coolness is so limited. He doesn't have much ability to adapt. It's a problem with a lot of martial classes, really. Tier 4-5 is annoying that way.
I dont understand why this is a reply to my post. I am not saying he shouldnt be able to trip, I am saying that a monk built from the recommended 15 point buy should have a descent but not overwhelming chance to trip these ogres. And the reality is that in the long run a flowing monk is a losing prospect as you get into the high levels rise of the runelords goes into particularly because of the emphasis on giants. The only way that works is in something like an E6 game where the game stays in the range where combat maneuvers work consistently for those who are good at them.
I don't see why you have a problem with a playervthat plays a tripping monk. I mean... he choses a tactical option that trips his oponent. He could be an archer paladin or pouncing synthesist, and kill tje monster in a full round instead. So where's the problem?
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A specialist monk, or especially a specialist Monk/Fighter, would have 0 trouble tripping a DC 30.
Let's go with a basic build for a Dwarf monk, 15 points, Manuever Master
Str: 16 (20, +2 level up, +2 item)
Int: 7
Wis: 16 (18, +2 item)
Dex: 14 (16, +2 item)
Con: 15
Chr: 5Fury's Fall, Improved Trip, Greater Trip are relevant feats (probably combat reflexes and vicious stomp to get 2 AOOs as they fall, and Snake Style feat line so that if an opponent attempts to attack from prone and misses they provoke more AOOs)
So base: +9 (BAB for CMB is = my level)
+3 (Dex, Fury's Fall)
+4 (Wis, Swift action for manuever master)
+4 (Improved/Greater Improved Trip)
+2 (Red Ioun Stone, slotted into Wayfinder gives +2 to all CMB)
+1 (Amulet of Mighty Fist)
+5 (Strength)
-5 (Flurry of Manuevers for 2 additional manuevers possible)
+1 (cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone)
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either +29/+24 or +24/+24/+24/+19 on trips.+2 Str / Dex belt (10000)
+2 Wis Headband (4000)
Red ioun stone + Wayfinder (5250)
Amulet of mighty fist +1 (4000)
Cracked Green Ioun Stone (4000)
Everything else dedicated to AC and SavesAnd that's without trying terribly hard.
but but but all the monk threads that are out there agree that as a 3/4 BAB class Monks can't possibly hit ANYTHING.
Read them.
They literally say ANYTHING.
hahaha thanks bro. This made my day! :)
BTW, RotRL Stone Giants only have a CMD of 30....
So, main to hit of +29 CMB, secondary at +24, roll above a 1 and then roll above a 5, down they go.
But nah, above the 4th book Tripping Monks suck.
It says so right in the forums.
I don't see why you have a problem with a playervthat plays a tripping monk. I mean... he choses a tactical option that trips his oponent. He could be an archer paladin or pouncing synthesist, and kill tje monster in a full round instead. So where's the problem?Because he's making the monsters look bad!
guess so. I never understand why people cry munchkin when they se a trip build or some other niche one-trick-pony builds, but they have no problem with a fighter archer doing 300 dmg to a 150hp boss.
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Semantics.
Read the Monk hate threads.
All the continual whargbargle and theory clearly shows that Monks can't do anything past a certain level.
Someone in this thread indicated the "sweet spot" is lvl 6ish.
Monk may not be "hitting" something for damage, but if the BBEG suddenly takes a -4 to his AC, and all your party members (including the Monk) who are at 3/4 BAB (like the forlorn lowly horrible unplayable Rogue, say) now get the joy of an additional +4 to hit, and maybe more if suddenly the Monk acrobatic'ed his way to flank (or just fast moved, because you know, they can) and suddenly everyone enjoys a +10 swing in the to hit and now the BBEG is toast.
Or maybe, they really do suck, because its all over the message boards.
Semantics.
Read the Monk hate threads.
All the continual whargbargle and theory clearly shows that Monks can't do anything past a certain level.
Someone in this thread indicated the "sweet spot" is lvl 6ish.
Monk may not be "hitting" something for damage, but if the BBEG suddenly takes a -4 to his AC, and all your party members (including the Monk) who are at 3/4 BAB (like the forlorn lowly horrible unplayable Rogue, say) now get the joy of an additional +4 to hit, and maybe more if suddenly the Monk acrobatic'ed his way to flank (or just fast moved, because you know, they can) and suddenly everyone enjoys a +10 swing in the to hit and now the BBEG is toast.
Or maybe, they really do suck, because its all over the message boards.
Yeah, over the years I've seen monks work really well with heavies. Don't bother trying to do the most damage, really assist a fighter/barb/ranger/rogues. Bro-team it up. I think you really get it, and refuse to just go along with the monks are crap majority.
Honestly, I was trying to explain the importance of monk teamwork and tactics and it being far more important than system mastery, some just refuse to get it. HE DOESN'T HAVE FULL BAB, THE MONK IS CRAP.
Urgh. He doesn't need it.
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Bruno concur with Bomanz and 3.5 Loyalist.
Bruno make many DPS happy when he grapple and pin stupid bad guy. Barbarians smile, Gunslingers laugh and Rogues dance with joy.
They even happier when Bruno grapple bad guy and then grapple-move him across battlefield so Bruno's friends can make a full attack.
(Bruno can roll a bagful of dice for damage when needed, but just as fun to set up other people to ginsu monsters.)
Yeah, over the years I've seen monks work really well with heavies. Don't bother trying to do the most damage, really assist a fighter/barb/ranger/rogues. Bro-team it up. I think you really get it, and refuse to just go along with the monks are crap majority.
Honestly, I was trying to explain the importance of monk teamwork and tactics and it being far more important than system mastery, some just refuse to get it. HE DOESN'T HAVE FULL BAB, THE MONK IS CRAP.
I'm not sure if we want to turn this into another monk hate thread... That didn't seem like the topic, unless I missed something. That said, Monk's have full BAB TWF when flurrying, and full BAB when using a BAB. There are other classes that don't get nearly as much hate as the monk that have 3/4 BAB.
Of course, this monk isn't tripping any better than any other PC. He does however have the redirection class feature(Limited use), and unbalancing counter. I think its pretty cool, but its limited. How many times is he using it per day? Once per round, and limited by class level has to run out sometime!
Bruno concur with Bomanz and 3.5 Loyalist.
Bruno make many DPS happy when he grapple and pin stupid bad guy. Barbarians smile, Gunslingers laugh and Rogues dance with joy.
They even happier when Bruno grapple bad guy and then grapple-move him across battlefield so Bruno's friends can make a full attack.
(Bruno can roll a bagful of dice for damage when needed, but just as fun to set up other people to ginsu monsters.)
And I helped!