I... Still... Hate... Tripping... Monks!!!!!!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

I'm running Rise of the Runelords and one of the characters is playing a Flowing Monk. Even bossfights are now NOTHING to my party because my monsters are always flat on their backs, followed by AOs for standing up, and finishing off with never getting their full round of attacks because they were too busy standing up!

Tripping Monks were broken in 3.0, even more broken in 3.5, and CONTINUE their broken streak here in Pathfinder.

From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!


Hmmm. Worms and Incorporeal beings to team up for the win! With a swarm of Harpies to finish them off!


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A monk doing his job is something to celebrate.

Sczarni

Yep. One of the few ways a Monk can really contribute to the group is by CMB.

I'm sure there will be plenty of creatures and bosses that can't be tripped in the future :)

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:
A monk doing his job is something to celebrate.

Job schmob, tripping when you are attacked as an interrupt is broken with a capitol B.

I've see a lot of DMs homebrew a Reflex save to resist tripping and am seriously considering it myself.

Liberty's Edge

GoldEdition42 wrote:
Hmmm. Worms and Incorporeal beings to team up for the win! With a swarm of Harpies to finish them off!

Except I am running Rise of the Runelords and my party will get uppity if snakes and ghosts start showing up every encounter for no apperent reason, lol.


Cormac O'Bron wrote:

I'm running Rise of the Runelords and one of the characters is playing a Flowing Monk. Even bossfights are now NOTHING to my party because my monsters are always flat on their backs, followed by AOs for standing up, and finishing off with never getting their full round of attacks because they were too busy standing up!

Tripping Monks were broken in 3.0, even more broken in 3.5, and CONTINUE their broken streak here in Pathfinder.

From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!

Monks don't trip any better than a fighter dedicated to doing so. A ranger could add his favored enemy bonus and do it better than both for boss fights.

I could keep going. :)

I always adjust the modules to the players. That does not mean negate their tactics, but making them hard to do, once the higher ups learn what the tactics are is not a bad idea.

Why is the Boss not standing up, and/or disarming the monk of the tripping weapon. With that -2, assuming flurry is in place are you sure it is not just high rolls doing you in?

edit:never seen a flowing monk so I dont know exactly how they work.


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Tripping Monks. Great band name.


wraithstrike wrote:
edit:never seen a flowing monk so I dont know exactly how they work.

They look a little like this. Note that its once per round because it eats up your immediate action, meaning its not so useful with snake or crane style.

The point of the archetype seems to be turning ones attacks against the user through reposition and trips, and to take advantage of AoO's. Be water friend?

Sczarni

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Cormac O'Bron wrote:
GoldEdition42 wrote:
Hmmm. Worms and Incorporeal beings to team up for the win! With a swarm of Harpies to finish them off!
Except I am running Rise of the Runelords and my party will get uppity if snakes and ghosts start showing up every encounter for no apperent reason, lol.

They'd probably get pretty uppity if you threw in that whole reflex save too. At least, one of them would.


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i guess if i were the boss, i would try to be full attacking guys from prone. Is there something that prevents that?


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It's just weird. With all the "monks are useless" threads, you'd think that if someone figures out how to make them relevant, it would be celebrated.

Go figure.

And... yeah. It's a 1/round thing. So if that breaks your game... well... maybe you need a tactical combat lesson?

Instead of the nerf-hammer.


Cormac O'Bron wrote:
Nicos wrote:
A monk doing his job is something to celebrate.

Job schmob, tripping when you are attacked as an interrupt is broken with a capitol B.

I've see a lot of DMs homebrew a Reflex save to resist tripping and am seriously considering it myself.

Redirection never states the trip attempt goes before the opponent attack is reslved.


Design enemies that are actually much more dangerous on their backs.

Heh heh heh, that sounds dirty out loud. But I mean it. Make another Monk who's a BJJ master or something.

Sovereign Court

A handful of minions that'll surround the monk and distract him for a few rounds, while the BBEG goes to town on the other PCs?


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To the best of my knowledge, you can attack from prone with a -4 penalty. So, even if interrupted, the attack still goes through, it's just less likely to hit, and the enemy doesn't need to get back up if they want to just continue attacking instead.

Not to mention there are a fair few things immune to trip, while anything with more than two legs has a bonus to its CMD against them (I think). I don't really know the enemies someone would find in RotRL, but that might be worth considering (attack dogs or something for example, if the party primarily fights humans/humanoids. Seems like they'd be easy to mix in).


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Vamptastic wrote:

Design enemies that are actually much more dangerous on their backs.

Heh heh heh, that sounds dirty out loud. But I mean it. Make another Monk who's a BJJ master or something.

Oh, and THIS doesn't sound dirty? :-D


I know. But just pretend the extra J saves it.


I get it's a preset game, but what BBEG doesn't have a fly wand/scroll/caster minion around to immunizing himself from a whole range of ground-based nastiness including trip.


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You are forgetting the first rule of fighting a trip build:

DON'T STAND UP

Darkwolf has it, fight from the prone position, it is -4 to hit and AC but that is nothing compared to the increased power of the full attack.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I have a tripping monk in my game and it really hasn't been an issue. He's pretty useful against humanoids, but larger creatures and quadrupeds+ do give him some issues. +2 to CMD for every pair of legs beyond one and Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. He uses Ki Throw to reposition people too, so it's pretty useful. Again, though, nothing truly broken. If you want to give him a challenge without nerfing him into the ground, have the bad guys start on different elevations. Also remember that when a creature stands up and he tries to trip them again as an AoO, they cannot be tripped because they are still considered prone. Also don't forget that most bonuses that affect your AC also affect your CMD. Specifically circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses. So something to consider. Also, as my players found out yesterday, casters can still cast Color Spray when prone. I swear there was a way to stand up with Acrobatics, but I can't seem to find it. Probably a Rogue Talent. Admittedly in my game, more people have firearms so ranged attacks while prone are less of an issue, except for provoking an attack of opportunity.

Also, I find larger battlefields help lessen this. When people aren't clumped together, it's harder for the monk to trip everyone.

So really, larger creatures, quadrupeds and other creatures with multiple legs, flying creatures, swarms, oozes, and snake-like creatures are good starters and are a great variety of monsters to use. Just don't over do it and make the monk feel useless by adding Reflex saves or making everyone Huge Centipedes. That's the sign of poor GMing there.


Then stop tripping them... Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Grand Lodge

You think that's bad? My Black MAgga from the 3rd book was Tetori'd. At level 9, the Magga was perpetually 10 feet in the ground and pinned. The damn monk spends 2 Ki and grapples the 'celestial monster', full-rounds into pin and drags the Magga through earth, repositioning it so that it can't get away.

The monk was a Oread Tetori. 'Nuff said.


"Shape of...a giant centipede!"

"Yeah, you like that? Go on. Trip this, jerk."

Sczarni

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Also, if you houserule a reflex save for trip. players are really just going to expect you to cheat and/or make more houserules... which will eventually turn into a bad experience for everyone. :T


Man... he'd really hate my H-Orc fig/rog too. At 8th level, he has +24 trip, +25 Dirty trick, +22 Steal, +20 Drag, +20 reposition. (although drag and reposition provoke).

With a 22 str and Felling smash, Gr trip, and quick dirty trick, they're prone and blind, and I already did damage with a 2h weapon to boot.


TGMaxMaxer....can you post that H-Orc build? I want to throw something like that against my group. He sounds like a good boss for a final fight.


The monk could just go paladin and 1 round death-smite the BBEG. IJS...


You think Flowing Monk is good for tripping, try a Human or Aasimar w/ Scion taking Racial Heritage (Halfling) and going for the Underfoot Adept racial archetype. At level 4, you calculate CMB for tripping as if you were a Large creature and can naturally trip up to Huge creatures. Take Ki Throw and you can spend 1 Ki to trip a Gargantuan creature or 2 Ki to trip a Colossal creature. At lvl 12, you count as Gargantuan and can naturally trip a Colossal for no Ki expenditure, or spend 1 Ki to be able to Ki Throw them into another spot.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I have a decent monk build that's a maneuver master with focus on trip. Love the flurry of trips.

Scarab Sages

I'm sorry. Despite having a trip monk in MY Crimson Throne game, the overwhelming amount of threads about how monks suck and are the most broken and useless class in the game (except for Rogues, LG Paladins, Blasting Wizards/Sorcerers and the lowly Fighter who Cant Fly)have quite convinced me.

Monks are terrible, even the tripping high CMB ones who work.

And by the way, its obvious that the AP writers were horribly biased towards Monks for that AP, because your players Monk works, and that is the only conclusion.

Even though your AP is different than mine, and that was the one conclusion they came up with about my players Monk.

Oh, and at higher levels in the AP, he will definitely begin to suck harder, even though you say he wont.

Yep.

Monks suck.

There, now other posters won't have to come in here and start another 10000 post thread.


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Bomanz YOU never convinced us because you refused to post a build, despite claiming you had builds that could proved us wrong, but I did start a thread, where others did post some decent monks. It took a lot of system mastery, but things are better than we thought they were so the "monks need help" brigade is not pushing as hard as we were before. I for one won't be saying a monk can't contribute. No I am not still not a fan either since I will have to still guide new players, but I am happy for what I have been shown.

PS: I remember you saying you posted such builds, and people making excuses, but even after searching for them I never found one.

That reminds me I need to check that thread out now to see how the is fairing on day 2. :)


What about the Underfoot Adept thing? That seems to avoid one of the big complaints about maneuver builds, that they don't work on big monsters.

I'll have to see what archetypes can stack with that. Sadly Flowing can't, as they both replace Stunning Fist.


thejeff wrote:

What about the Underfoot Adept thing? That seems to avoid one of the big complaints about maneuver builds, that they don't work on big monsters.

I'll have to see what archetypes can stack with that. Sadly Flowing can't, as they both replace Stunning Fist.

Lets see, it can mesh with the following:

Drunken Master
Ki Mystic
Martial Artist
Empty Hand
Healing Hand
Sensei

So maybe a Drunken Master/Sensei/Underfoot Adept, use Wisdom for Attack and CMB and slog a drink for extra Ki to fuel Ki Throw.


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Cormac O'Bron wrote:

I'm running Rise of the Runelords and one of the characters is playing a Flowing Monk. Even bossfights are now NOTHING to my party because my monsters are always flat on their backs, followed by AOs for standing up, and finishing off with never getting their full round of attacks because they were too busy standing up!

Tripping Monks were broken in 3.0, even more broken in 3.5, and CONTINUE their broken streak here in Pathfinder.

From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!

It's obvious that what you need is snakes with crossbows and the prone shooter feat.


BBG full attacks back from prone are the 'so what' response to a trip build.

Monks don't usually have the AC and the HP to take that for long.


Also you make it sound as if this monk is using redirection all the time. It does have a use per day limit as well as only being usable once per round. Avoid the 15 minute adventuring day and you can wear him out and ruin his brief moment in the spotlight as a monk.


Cormac O'Bron wrote:

I'm running Rise of the Runelords and one of the characters is playing a Flowing Monk. Even bossfights are now NOTHING to my party because my monsters are always flat on their backs, followed by AOs for standing up, and finishing off with never getting their full round of attacks because they were too busy standing up!

Tripping Monks were broken in 3.0, even more broken in 3.5, and CONTINUE their broken streak here in Pathfinder.

From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!

Oh, let the monk have his fun! Before long the monsters will get too big to trip so easily anyway, and frankly the monk is nowhere near as good at maneuvers as...well, every other class, basically. For example a fighter with a reach weapon is way nastier, for example, because he has reach, the enhancement bonus from the weapon, the bonus from weapon training, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus etc. all added in.

Also remember, monsters can use maneuvers too - like grapple, bull rush, and overrun - that make them very unpleasant for the party to face.

Lastly, you could get creative and use the tactic against the party rather than nerfing trip by DM fiat and rendering a PC completely ineffective...


Cormac O'Bron wrote:

I'm running Rise of the Runelords and one of the characters is playing a Flowing Monk. Even bossfights are now NOTHING to my party because my monsters are always flat on their backs, followed by AOs for standing up, and finishing off with never getting their full round of attacks because they were too busy standing up!

Tripping Monks were broken in 3.0, even more broken in 3.5, and CONTINUE their broken streak here in Pathfinder.

From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!

I've not run or played the AP, but I suspect the opponents are too similar (probably Medium-sized humanoids exclusively). Toss in some monsters, with Scent, because inevitably the caster PCs will turn invisible. When a boss if flat on their back, the monsters can eat whoever is trying to club them to death.


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Bomanz wrote:
I'm sorry. Despite having a trip monk in MY Crimson Throne game...

The one where you only went through the first three urban-based modules and missed on the following ones that introduced all the hard-to-trip monsters? The one where your experience of half the adventure somehow invalidated my experience of the entire adventure path with a tripping monk that found it hard to contribute after 8th level and almost ineffective after 10th due to all the flying, swimming, legless/multi-legged, enemies you encounter later on?

RotR Spoiler:
RotR is similar, you are facing small humanoids (giblins) in the first adventure, medium humanoids (ghouls & assassins) in the second, large (ogres) in the third and after that they just get bigger and bigger (stone giants, then larger giants, plus snake-lamias, dragons, etc.).

All of which is in accordance with the statement about monks that they are not too bad at low levels when facing humanoids (sweet spot around 2nd to 6th level), but at higher levels, facing non-humanoids, and fighting higher-than-level CRs they struggle more than other classes with little to make up for it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

With Ki Throw, they can break the normal size limitations on trip by spending ki.

I too played all the way through CotCT. Was a very enjoyable Adventure Path. Though, there are several humanoid enemies in Book 6.

Sovereign Court

Just swing from prone. Most of the big stuff shouldn't really care that much about a penalty to their attack rolls.

No reason to waste time standing up.

Dark Archive

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Man... he'd really hate my H-Orc fig/rog too. At 8th level, he has +24 trip, +25 Dirty trick, +22 Steal, +20 Drag, +20 reposition. (although drag and reposition provoke).

With a 22 str and Felling smash, Gr trip, and quick dirty trick, they're prone and blind, and I already did damage with a 2h weapon to boot.

I'd also like to see that build. I'm very interested in 'boss fights' that aren't with spellcasters, which generally involves stuff like dread wight monks or awakened construct barbarians or whatever.

Grand Lodge

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Cormac O'Bron wrote:
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!

Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.


KK... For GoldEdition 42... I don't have Herolabs or such, so I can't do the great linky thing most ppls do. But, I'll spoiler it for you to keep the wall o'text down.

Sneakkill the Butcher (yes... that's his name):

H-Orc LoreWarden 4/Skulking Slayer Scout 4

Str 23(17+2 level+ 2 item + 2PFSchronicle)Dex 16 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 7

1: Power Attack, Cleave 3: Combat Expertise(LW bonus), Imp trip, Imp Dirty trick 4: Surprise Follow Thru(Rogue Talent) 5: Cleaving Finish 7: Gr trip, Felling Smash 8: Gr Dirty Trick(RT Combat Trick)

Max Stealth, Acrobatics, in +1 elven chain. Boots of Spider Climb for fantastic flanking positioning from the ceiling without moving thru threatened area. Gloves of Reconnaisance to always know what is in the next room. At least 2 of every alchemical item allowed in game, because you never know. (once hit a demon with a tanglefoot bag while 200 ft up... kersplat. the save to fall while flying is awesome)

Skulking slayer adds his sneak dice to dirty tricks, and 1.5 sneak dice to steal, and lets him make a dirty trick/steal when he could sneak as a melee attack instead of a standard action. Scout means anytime he charges is a sneak attack, skulking slayer makes those d8 with any 2 handed weapon while charging. Felling Smash, if he hits while power attacking, he gets a free trip. Gr trip, he gets a free melee attack after a successful trip. Surprise Follow Thru means all cleave attacks are sneak attacks, so I can chain blind any line of guys. Uses a +1 Dueling Scorpion Whip (ISWG version for PFS legal, not the UC version, gives double weapon enhancement bonus to CMB performed with the weapon, in addition to the normal weapon bonus, making the +1 whip give a total of +3 to CMB with it)

At LW 5(level 9) will have weapon training flails, which includes whip and H flail (d10 19-20x2 2h weapon with trip), also getting Gloves of Dueling then. Level 9 feat will be combat reflexes, to chain trip/blind guys with Surprise Follow Thru.

BAB +7/2, Str +6, Base CMB 17, plus bonuses based on maneuver, Dirty Trick +8. Trip +4. Steal +3. Whip Maneuver +3 (trip/drag/reposition/steal/dirty trick(subject to GM ruling).

Lore Warden gives him Static +2 to all cmb/cmd
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone Slotted in Wayfinder +2 CMB/CMD
Burglars Buckler 4400g +2 CMB Dirty Trick
+4 Dirty Trick feats
+4 Trip feats
+3 for any that use the scorpion whip, includes trip/drag/reposition/steal(at -4)/dirty trick per GM depending on what and how
+3 Steal (sneak dice)
+2 Dirty Trick (sneak dice)

Drag/Repo/Steal mainly use whip to not provoke within reach, at +20 total. Steal +19 (using whip at -4), or when no AoO is possible. (Notably Stealing cleric Holy Symbols is fantastic in PFS, they have few spells prepped that dont require a divine focus, and can't channel negative then)

Typical tactics are to stealth (+21) in ahead of time, to set up a surprise round trip/blind. Then either go damage or stay on lockdown mode while the rest of the party rolls in.

Surprise round Charge leads to trip+blind. If he kills something, he gets a free attack at highest on anyone in reach.

Usually begins combat with both flail and scorpion whip in hand, though flail is just carried not wielded, runs up, makes his initial whip attacks then drops it to continue 2h fighting whatever's left.

Has a couple of Snapleaf(UE) single use invis/feather fall immediate actions for oh S&#$ moments, and a couple cure Mod/Serious pots in case he needs to invis-heal.

2000g cracked purple Ioun Stone (stores 1 level 1 spell) with wand of shield cast into it by a friendly at the beginning of all modules... usually activated right before he attacks from invis/stealth for 10 rounds +4AC. AC is only 24 (28 with shield up) and Will save is PITIFUL at +4, but if he drops to -hp and is still alive he insta heals 10 points from his Shawl of Life Keeping. Saves are next project to work on, altho at this point, DC's are so high he probably won't make them even if I get to +10s.


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

KK... For GoldEdition 42... I don't have Herolabs or such, so I can't do the great linky thing most ppls do. But, I'll spoiler it for you to keep the wall o'text down.

** spoiler omitted **...

Thanks for the build! He will be sure to kill someone alongside my gnome sorcerer sidekick.


@Gold... I hadda drop the Dusty Rose slotted stone for a Clear Spindle... after I got dominated against my party last time and almost killed them all they insisted I be immune to hostile mind control, or not play with them any more.

Lol... you should see my PFS legal bard7/gunslinger3... ~100 dps on single shot touch attack, ~150 on full round 3 attacks.

People dont like him either.


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OP, who's side are you on?

It seems like your complaint is that one of the people you are running the game for has a character that is actually doing what it is designed to do.

How is that a bad thing?


Solution 1: Have them fight birds.
Solution 2: The boss can just full attack the monk from the ground with -4 to hit until the monk is dead, then stand up and fight the party.
Solution 3: Don't make up rules to f#+% your players, select foes that are better built or equipped to handle them. There are enough rules as it is.


I'm also not really sure what the problem is here, as long as the group is having fun. There are only two possible problems I can see.

A) I could understand some frustration if the monk is totally overshadowing everyone else, but if the party's amused, what's the issue?

B) You do want to make sure they all still feel challenged. But as others have pointed out, there are easier ways of doing that then using weird nerfing houserules or cheating with magic items. In particular, keep note of the fact that the redirection ability is only 1/day per monk level. That'll run out real quick if he's using it all day. Other than that...so he trips people. So what? They can hit him anyway, and there are so many things that simply cannot be tripped that you may as well let him have fun when he can. If it flies, has no legs, or has too many legs, his ability - in fact, probably the majority of his build - becomes totally useless. So when it works, I say let him shine.

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