I... Still... Hate... Tripping... Monks!!!!!!


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Viscount K wrote:

I'm also not really sure what the problem is here, as long as the group is having fun. There are only two possible problems I can see.

A) I could understand some frustration if the monk is totally overshadowing everyone else, but if the party's amused, what's the issue?

B) You do want to make sure they all still feel challenged. But as others have pointed out, there are easier ways of doing that then using weird nerfing houserules or cheating with magic items. In particular, keep note of the fact that the redirection ability is only 1/day per monk level. That'll run out real quick if he's using it all day. Other than that...so he trips people. So what? They can hit him anyway, and there are so many things that simply cannot be tripped that you may as well let him have fun when he can. If it flies, has no legs, or has too many legs, his ability - in fact, probably the majority of his build - becomes totally useless. So when it works, I say let him shine.

Essentially sums it up - and also echo the point about a fighter with a reach weapon.


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Quote:
A flowing monk can use this ability once per day per monk level, but no more than once per round.

Like Stunning Fist, that it replaces, there's a cap on how often a monk can use this ability. I don't see where your problem comes from.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Nicos wrote:
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
Nicos wrote:
A monk doing his job is something to celebrate.

Job schmob, tripping when you are attacked as an interrupt is broken with a capitol B.

I've see a lot of DMs homebrew a Reflex save to resist tripping and am seriously considering it myself.

Redirection never states the trip attempt goes before the opponent attack is reslved.

Very important. I hadn't noticed that. it is a immediate action, but that don't make it go before the attacker action.

Still this seem a bit off:

PRD wrote:


Unbalancing Counter (Ex): At 2nd level, a flowing monk's attacks of opportunity render a struck creature flat-footed until the end of the flowing monk's next turn (Reflex DC 10 + 1/2 the monk's level + Wisdom modifier negates). This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.

"I get an a AoO, I make you flat footed, independently from damaging you or not." seem wrong. Or I am missing something there too?

I don't see anything that say that he need to damage the target.

So the BEEG with DR/20 adamantine stand up, the monk make an attack of opportunity, hit him and without doing even 1 point of damage make it flat footed?
The BEEG is flat footed against everyone? (probable, but specifying that would have been a good thing.)

Even the need to hit the target is downplayed: "a flowing monk's attacks of opportunity render a struck creature flat-footed until the end of the flowing monk's next turn".
I would have greatly preferred something like "a flowing monk's attacks of opportunity, if he successfully hit the target, render a struck creature flat-footed until the end of the flowing monk's next turn" or some such, stressing the point that you need to hit the target.

PRD wrote:
At 8th level, a flowing monk can make both a reposition and a trip maneuver as part of a single immediate action with this ability. At 12th level, a flowing monk can use redirection against any opponent that attacks him in melee, even if the flowing monk is not threatening the opponent who attacks him.

Wow, so he can reposition the guy with the whip or polearm, while at the same time tripping it, without ever having him in range. Adn then people say that teh monks don't have wuxia powers.


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Threeshades wrote:
It's obvious that what you need is snakes with crossbows and the prone shooter feat.

Enough is enough! I've had it with these motherf%&+in snakes and their motherf%**in crossbows!


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Odraude wrote:
With Ki Throw, they can break the normal size limitations on trip by spending ki.

Can't trip legless or flying creatures though, and ki is a scant resource unless you blow a lot of feats on it. If you do, well, you have blown a lot of resources to be good at one thing. So you deserve to be good at it.

Odraude wrote:
I too played all the way through CotCT. Was a very enjoyable Adventure Path. Though, there are several humanoid enemies in Book 6.

There were, which came as a relief to me! Still, my main role in the final boss-fight was not damaging Ileosa (I couldn't touch her AC and DR), it was tripping and tying down the other members of the party that failed their Will saves and turned against the rest of us.

PRD wrote:
At 8th level, a flowing monk can make both a reposition and a trip maneuver as part of a single immediate action with this ability. At 12th level, a flowing monk can use redirection against any opponent that attacks him in melee, even if the flowing monk is not threatening the opponent who attacks him.
Diego Rossi wrote:
Wow, so he can reposition the guy with the whip or polearm, while at the same time tripping it, without ever having him in range. Adn then people say that teh monks don't have wuxia powers.

What's wuxia about grabbing the end of a reach weapon and using it to pull the wielder off-balance? Sounds perfectly logical to me.


Cormac O'Bron wrote:

I'm running Rise of the Runelords and one of the characters is playing a Flowing Monk. Even bossfights are now NOTHING to my party because my monsters are always flat on their backs, followed by AOs for standing up, and finishing off with never getting their full round of attacks because they were too busy standing up!

Tripping Monks were broken in 3.0, even more broken in 3.5, and CONTINUE their broken streak here in Pathfinder.

From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!

Well to come down against combat maneuvres is an early paizo standard. Good that this is changing a bit though.

On the 3.5 monk, the trip was very strong (good, because it required some investment), but there was 1 feat allowing you to attack from prone on no penalty, so there were ways around it.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!
Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.

So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol.

Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!
Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.
So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol..

It only takes one. ;)


Just keep track of the repositions as those are level/day, and 1/round. The flat footed on AoO's gets a save(altho it is reflex). Trip has a limit of 1 size higher than you.

Maneuvers are -meant- to be good against humanoids, they pretty much fail against monsters (unless you have a -lot- more than just a monks normal feats invested).

Not sure where you are level wise, but in general it seems that maneuvers really get good 4-8 range... then taper off.


Cormac O'Bron wrote:
Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.

Sounds like he's not very good at it. >.>


Cormac O'Bron wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!
Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.

So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol.

Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.

Ogres with 5 HD (1 level or RHD more than standard ogres) qualify for Improved Unarmed Strike, Acrobatics 5 ranks, Climb 5 ranks.

Ogres without take 1 level Master of Many style Monk get for free.


If you hate tripping monks, then trip wizards!
Or stop giving monks bad bad drugs.
Or teach the monks to look where they are walking.
Or learn to love, not hate!

Yes, I am mentally drunk while typing this :)

wheeeeeee

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Tripping is good against humanoids, but quickly becomes increasingly difficult against monsters as they get bigger, stronger, multi-legged, and fly.

So it looks like he's fighting the right opponents for trip tactics to work on. I wouldn't make it harder.


Petty Alchemy wrote:

Tripping is good against humanoids, but quickly becomes increasingly difficult against monsters as they get bigger, stronger, multi-legged, and fly.

So it looks like he's fighting the right opponents for trip tactics to work on. I wouldn't make it harder.

I still say my advice is the more awesome-like


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!
Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.
So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol..
It only takes one. ;)

You could even do it with one level of Unarmed Fighter. He'll get improved unarmed strike and a free style he doesn't have to meet the prerequisites for. And makes more sense do to the lack of alignment restriction.


Valiant wrote:

If you hate tripping monks, then trip wizards!

Or stop giving monks bad bad drugs.
Or teach the monks to look where they are walking.
Or learn to love, not hate!

Yes, I am mentally drunk while typing this :)

wheeeeeee

Be the water, my friend.


Cormac O'Bron wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!
Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.
So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol.

Well those ogres are meant to be mooks, cannon fodder sort of thing, for the most part. A ranger at his level would practically one-shot them, so really tripping them is not that bad. It's only an issue when the ones with character levels get tripped and then the rest of the party pile in and finish them off...because I am guessing that in damage dealing, this monk is not exactly stellar, right?

Cormac O'Bron wrote:
Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.

Yeah, I have met players like that. I don't play with them, though. The point of the game is for everyone to have fun, not just one person. Besides, isolate the monk and he will have a lot of trouble functioning.


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Then again, there's such a thing as TOO focused on tripping...

In a recent game session, our party's monk announced on his turn: "Both of the bad guys are already prone, so I can't do anything. I withhold."


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I have a tripping Fighter in one of my campaigns. I just trip him back all the time XD

Dark Archive

I'm running Rise of the Rune Lords. Unless he has built himself REALLY well, by section 4 the tripping monk will not be causing many problems. Trippers are very good at low levels, but especially in Rise will get worse in the latter parts of the module.

And for what it's worth, tripping Fighters or Fighter / Monks are almost strictly better. Polearms and Lore Warden bonuses, along with weapon training, make for much higher bonus values.

So let them have their fun; and let them feel useful. I had a "boss-ish" character one shotted because of a failed save to a spell, but I'm not complaining, that's just the wizard doing his job. Just let him enjoy his tactics until they get much, much more difficult; and realize that PCs enjoy being useful (even front-line melees :)).

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Cormac O'Bron wrote:


Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.

It still doesn't look that bad to me. Optimizers get a kick out of being badass, and he choose an inferior specialization probably to hold back. He could've been a caster and wreaked all sorts of battlefield control from a safer distance, or hell, he could've optimized for damage. Instead his optimization is more about team play that allows the rest of the party to shine. And as the game scales into big strong monsters, he'll face the natural challenges of tripping.

Liberty's Edge

Finally! A use for the prone shooter feat


I finished Carrion Crown a few months ago and one of my players was a flowing monk. He was middle or the pack on damage, but had the 2nd best AC (50+) in the group and the highest hit and cmb. So I completely understand where the op is coming from.

He would take around 5 to 10 AoO a turn and usually get 75% of those to make the target flat footed (the bigger issue with the archetype imo). Needless to say, he was our Arcane Tricksters best friend since he practically guaranteed ranged sneak attack every round.

It was a very powerful character and really only multi-legged or naturally flying/untripable creatures have a good chance of negating the tactic, even at later levels, assuming your group works together.

I agree the op is overreacting a bit, but a good player and this archetype can really help trivialize a large majority of fights.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Cormac O'Bron wrote:
From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!
Why don't you just use the rules? Your players will feel less butthurt then.

So the Ogres who took over Fort Rannick all suddenly have enough monk levels to take Monkey Style! Yea, my PCs will not have anything to say about that lol.

Thanks for all the posts, I was just venting. It really is more about the PC in question who ALWAYS plays something that completely gets under my skin. He's a min maxing power gamer who looks for broken builds on purpose.

I dont get how a monk has such a high level of success against anything but the goblins at the beggining of the adventure. Its actually really hard to trip things, especially as you get up in levels. Those ogres have huge bonuses (high strength, size bonuses ratial HD etc) to their CMD. How is the monk tripping them? My guess is that you used not standard stat generation and this monk has really high stats, because with a 15 point buy, i dont see how this happens.


I dont get how a monk has such a high level of success against anything but the goblins at the beggining of the adventure. Its actually really hard to trip things, especially as you get up in levels. Those ogres have huge bonuses (high strength, size bonuses ratial HD etc) to their CMD. How is the monk tripping them? My guess is that you used not standard stat generation and this monk has really high stats, because with a 15 point buy, i dont see how this happens. wrote:

Ogre's only have an 18 CMD. Some of the specialized ones have around 25. The characters are approximately lvl 9 at that point. Those are EASY CMD's for that level. I would guess the character has a 50%+ chance to trip against boss fights and 90%+ on typical fights.

Keep in mind that when using unarmed strike (or any weapon) to trip, all bonus's to hit also go to cmb. This is how people get such high trip/sunder/disarm compared to the other combat moves.


Azixirad wrote:
Finally! A use for the prone shooter feat

Pew pew!


It's the tweaking fighters that always ruin my buzz.

Seriously I sympathize with you in the fact that I really like my games to be as realistic as possible (with the obvious exceptions), and for a house game I would probably tweak this item since you have brought it to my attention.

Since I have shifted to much more PFS games, I have learned I have to push my borders for suspension of disbelief much more regularly.


Tell me more Sitri, if you can.

Silver Crusade

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Tripping monks remind me that monks do have a place, and that place is making life miserable for bipedal equipment based people.

One of my players plays a monk, he was surrounded by shield and axe wielding dwarven juju zombies at one point.

Thanks to flurry, a round or two later, they were all on their asses, with no shields, and no axes.

Its what they do.


cnetarian wrote:

You are forgetting the first rule of fighting a trip build:

DON'T STAND UP

Darkwolf has it, fight from the prone position, it is -4 to hit and AC but that is nothing compared to the increased power of the full attack.

Indeed, I tossed some custom monsters at my PCs once that had Improved Trip AND the Wolf trip ability. They learned very quickly to attack from prone. (They liked interesting combat encounters, btw).

I really don't see what's so scary about this monk. JUST SHOOT HIM. Or magic him. Really, there are tons of ways of dealing with him. He's a one-trick pony. It's not a bad trick, but it's the only trick he's got. Also, he can't fly. Assuming, for some reason, you can't simply overwhelm him.

That's even assuming he's the biggest threat. Sure, tripping is annoying, but it's possible it's actually other characters that are overall more effective (just less flashy). Hmm, I wonder what the party look like.

As for the player power-gaming...well, he's playing a monk so anything he does is fair game. It's a bloody monk! One of the worst classes in the game.

Edit: If the party is about level 9, then that means enemies should have 5th and 6th level spells. Shouldn't be too hard to find ways to stop him. Free Action is the crudest way. Transmute Rock to Mud works. Dozens of others.


Deflect arrows and high ac is hilarious when someone says, just shoot him.

Early days, that may be quite difficult.


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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Tell me more Sitri, if you can.

Sorry, I actually had a few drinks when I made this post and forgot which thread I was in. This first part, the joke, was meant for this thread and then for whatever reason I thought I was in the thread where the guy was talking about changes to the breastplate being unrealistic.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Xarthos Darkblade wrote:
I dont get how a monk has such a high level of success against anything but the goblins at the beggining of the adventure. Its actually really hard to trip things, especially as you get up in levels. Those ogres have huge bonuses (high strength, size bonuses ratial HD etc) to their CMD. How is the monk tripping them? My guess is that you used not standard stat generation and this monk has really high stats, because with a 15 point buy, i dont see how this happens. wrote:

Ogre's only have an 18 CMD. Some of the specialized ones have around 25. The characters are approximately lvl 9 at that point. Those are EASY CMD's for that level. I would guess the character has a 50%+ chance to trip against boss fights and 90%+ on typical fights.

Keep in mind that when using unarmed strike (or any weapon) to trip, all bonus's to hit also go to cmb. This is how people get such high trip/sunder/disarm compared to the other combat moves.

I am aware, but a normal ogre is a CR 3 creature, ofcourse a level 9 monk and easily trip him. The 'boss orgres' or orgres with character levels in that part of the adventure have a cmd in the mid to high twenties. A level 9 monk built with a 15 point buy should have some significant trouble tripping them.


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Kolokotroni wrote:
Xarthos Darkblade wrote:
I dont get how a monk has such a high level of success against anything but the goblins at the beggining of the adventure. Its actually really hard to trip things, especially as you get up in levels. Those ogres have huge bonuses (high strength, size bonuses ratial HD etc) to their CMD. How is the monk tripping them? My guess is that you used not standard stat generation and this monk has really high stats, because with a 15 point buy, i dont see how this happens. wrote:

Ogre's only have an 18 CMD. Some of the specialized ones have around 25. The characters are approximately lvl 9 at that point. Those are EASY CMD's for that level. I would guess the character has a 50%+ chance to trip against boss fights and 90%+ on typical fights.

Keep in mind that when using unarmed strike (or any weapon) to trip, all bonus's to hit also go to cmb. This is how people get such high trip/sunder/disarm compared to the other combat moves.

I am aware, but a normal ogre is a CR 3 creature, ofcourse a level 9 monk and easily trip him. The 'boss orgres' or orgres with character levels in that part of the adventure have a cmd in the mid to high twenties. A level 9 monk built with a 15 point buy should have some significant trouble tripping them.

Nonetheless, shouldn't the only effective thing this character can do, which only works on some monsters, and gets worse as he levels, be taken away?

Some DMs need to learn it is perfectly fine if your PCs do awesome stuff. Mixing things up for them now and then is fine too, but you shouldn't take their awesome away. Don't think "how can I stop them from being cool?" but rather "What will challenge them and let them be cool?" If anything, something like this monk is a concern only because his coolness is so limited. He doesn't have much ability to adapt. It's a problem with a lot of martial classes, really. Tier 4-5 is annoying that way.

Dark Archive

A specialist monk, or especially a specialist Monk/Fighter, would have 0 trouble tripping a DC 30.

Let's go with a basic build for a Dwarf monk, 15 points, Manuever Master

Str: 16 (20, +2 level up, +2 item)
Int: 7
Wis: 16 (18, +2 item)
Dex: 14 (16, +2 item)
Con: 15
Chr: 5

Fury's Fall, Improved Trip, Greater Trip are relevant feats (probably combat reflexes and vicious stomp to get 2 AOOs as they fall, and Snake Style feat line so that if an opponent attempts to attack from prone and misses they provoke more AOOs)

So base: +9 (BAB for CMB is = my level)
+3 (Dex, Fury's Fall)
+4 (Wis, Swift action for manuever master)
+4 (Improved/Greater Improved Trip)
+2 (Red Ioun Stone, slotted into Wayfinder gives +2 to all CMB)
+1 (Amulet of Mighty Fist)
+5 (Strength)
-5 (Flurry of Manuevers for 2 additional manuevers possible)
+1 (cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone)
--------------------------------------
either +29/+24 or +24/+24/+24/+19 on trips.

+2 Str / Dex belt (10000)
+2 Wis Headband (4000)
Red ioun stone + Wayfinder (5250)
Amulet of mighty fist +1 (4000)
Cracked Green Ioun Stone (4000)
Everything else dedicated to AC and Saves

And that's without trying terribly hard.


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Cormac O'Bron wrote:

I'm running Rise of the Runelords and one of the characters is playing a Flowing Monk. Even bossfights are now NOTHING to my party because my monsters are always flat on their backs, followed by AOs for standing up, and finishing off with never getting their full round of attacks because they were too busy standing up!

Tripping Monks were broken in 3.0, even more broken in 3.5, and CONTINUE their broken streak here in Pathfinder.

From here on out, I'm gonna give all my monsters Boots of STFU: +100 to resist trip attacks!

I don't feel like reading 80+ posts to see if my answer is the same as most other people (which I will assume it probably will be).

Seriously you are going to pick on the monk out of all of the classes? I just don't get it. There is nothing wrong with the monk doing what he does best if he's built to do so. This isn't a game of YOU vs your players, this is a game of the PCs vs the NPC's. You seem to be taking this personally and you shouldn't be doing that as a GM.

If you are so worried about all the tripping going on, add more variation to your encounters and it doesn't have to be incorporeal, multi-legged, or flying. You could use terrain and mooks/minions to make it harder to get to your BBEG and keep the party busy without breaking the bank on difficulty.

Bottom line: Don't get all pissy when your players do well in combat.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Drachasor wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Xarthos Darkblade wrote:
I dont get how a monk has such a high level of success against anything but the goblins at the beggining of the adventure. Its actually really hard to trip things, especially as you get up in levels. Those ogres have huge bonuses (high strength, size bonuses ratial HD etc) to their CMD. How is the monk tripping them? My guess is that you used not standard stat generation and this monk has really high stats, because with a 15 point buy, i dont see how this happens. wrote:

Ogre's only have an 18 CMD. Some of the specialized ones have around 25. The characters are approximately lvl 9 at that point. Those are EASY CMD's for that level. I would guess the character has a 50%+ chance to trip against boss fights and 90%+ on typical fights.

Keep in mind that when using unarmed strike (or any weapon) to trip, all bonus's to hit also go to cmb. This is how people get such high trip/sunder/disarm compared to the other combat moves.

I am aware, but a normal ogre is a CR 3 creature, ofcourse a level 9 monk and easily trip him. The 'boss orgres' or orgres with character levels in that part of the adventure have a cmd in the mid to high twenties. A level 9 monk built with a 15 point buy should have some significant trouble tripping them.

Nonetheless, shouldn't the only effective thing this character can do, which only works on some monsters, and gets worse as he levels, be taken away?

Some DMs need to learn it is perfectly fine if your PCs do awesome stuff. Mixing things up for them now and then is fine too, but you shouldn't take their awesome away. Don't think "how can I stop them from being cool?" but rather "What will challenge them and let them be cool?" If anything, something like this monk is a concern only because his coolness is so limited. He doesn't have much ability to adapt. It's a problem with a lot of martial classes, really. Tier 4-5 is annoying that way.

I dont understand why this is a reply to my post. I am not saying he shouldnt be able to trip, I am saying that a monk built from the recommended 15 point buy should have a descent but not overwhelming chance to trip these ogres. And the reality is that in the long run a flowing monk is a losing prospect as you get into the high levels rise of the runelords goes into particularly because of the emphasis on giants. The only way that works is in something like an E6 game where the game stays in the range where combat maneuvers work consistently for those who are good at them.


Kolokotroni wrote:
Drachasor wrote:


Nonetheless, shouldn't the only effective thing this character can do, which only works on some monsters, and gets worse as he levels, be taken away?

Some DMs need to learn it is perfectly fine if your PCs do awesome stuff. Mixing things up for them now and then is fine too, but you shouldn't take their awesome away. Don't think "how can I stop them from being cool?" but rather "What will challenge them and let them be cool?" If anything, something like this monk is a concern only because his coolness is so limited. He doesn't have much ability to adapt. It's a problem with a lot of martial classes, really. Tier 4-5 is annoying that way.

I dont understand why this is a reply to my post. I am not saying he shouldnt be able to trip, I am saying that a monk built from the recommended 15 point buy should have a descent but not overwhelming chance to trip these ogres. And the reality is that in the long run a flowing monk is a losing prospect as you get into the high levels rise of the runelords goes into particularly because of the emphasis on giants. The only way that works is in something like an E6 game where the game stays in the range where combat maneuvers work consistently for those who are good at them.

My apologies, I was being facetious given how so many in here are fretting over this non-issue.. Poe's Law at work.


I don't see why you have a problem with a playervthat plays a tripping monk. I mean... he choses a tactical option that trips his oponent. He could be an archer paladin or pouncing synthesist, and kill tje monster in a full round instead. So where's the problem?


gustavo iglesias wrote:
I don't see why you have a problem with a playervthat plays a tripping monk. I mean... he choses a tactical option that trips his oponent. He could be an archer paladin or pouncing synthesist, and kill tje monster in a full round instead. So where's the problem?

Because he's making the monsters look bad!

Scarab Sages

Thalin wrote:

A specialist monk, or especially a specialist Monk/Fighter, would have 0 trouble tripping a DC 30.

Let's go with a basic build for a Dwarf monk, 15 points, Manuever Master

Str: 16 (20, +2 level up, +2 item)
Int: 7
Wis: 16 (18, +2 item)
Dex: 14 (16, +2 item)
Con: 15
Chr: 5

Fury's Fall, Improved Trip, Greater Trip are relevant feats (probably combat reflexes and vicious stomp to get 2 AOOs as they fall, and Snake Style feat line so that if an opponent attempts to attack from prone and misses they provoke more AOOs)

So base: +9 (BAB for CMB is = my level)
+3 (Dex, Fury's Fall)
+4 (Wis, Swift action for manuever master)
+4 (Improved/Greater Improved Trip)
+2 (Red Ioun Stone, slotted into Wayfinder gives +2 to all CMB)
+1 (Amulet of Mighty Fist)
+5 (Strength)
-5 (Flurry of Manuevers for 2 additional manuevers possible)
+1 (cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone)
--------------------------------------
either +29/+24 or +24/+24/+24/+19 on trips.

+2 Str / Dex belt (10000)
+2 Wis Headband (4000)
Red ioun stone + Wayfinder (5250)
Amulet of mighty fist +1 (4000)
Cracked Green Ioun Stone (4000)
Everything else dedicated to AC and Saves

And that's without trying terribly hard.

but but but all the monk threads that are out there agree that as a 3/4 BAB class Monks can't possibly hit ANYTHING.

Read them.

They literally say ANYTHING.

hahaha thanks bro. This made my day! :)

BTW, RotRL Stone Giants only have a CMD of 30....

So, main to hit of +29 CMB, secondary at +24, roll above a 1 and then roll above a 5, down they go.

But nah, above the 4th book Tripping Monks suck.

It says so right in the forums.


Drachasor wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
I don't see why you have a problem with a playervthat plays a tripping monk. I mean... he choses a tactical option that trips his oponent. He could be an archer paladin or pouncing synthesist, and kill tje monster in a full round instead. So where's the problem?
Because he's making the monsters look bad!

guess so. I never understand why people cry munchkin when they se a trip build or some other niche one-trick-pony builds, but they have no problem with a fighter archer doing 300 dmg to a 150hp boss.


Bomanz wrote:

but but but all the monk threads that are out there agree that as a 3/4 BAB class Monks can't possibly hit ANYTHING.

Read them.

They literally say ANYTHING.

hahaha thanks bro. This made my day! :)

It's a lot easier to raise CMB than attack rolls. That monk can CMB well, but attack well? Not so much. There is a difference (unless I'm missing something).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Bomanz wrote:
but but but all the monk threads that are out there agree that as a 3/4 BAB class Monks can't possibly hit ANYTHING.

Point of order, that trip monk isn't actually "hitting'' when he trips them. ;)

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Semantics.

Read the Monk hate threads.

All the continual whargbargle and theory clearly shows that Monks can't do anything past a certain level.

Someone in this thread indicated the "sweet spot" is lvl 6ish.

Monk may not be "hitting" something for damage, but if the BBEG suddenly takes a -4 to his AC, and all your party members (including the Monk) who are at 3/4 BAB (like the forlorn lowly horrible unplayable Rogue, say) now get the joy of an additional +4 to hit, and maybe more if suddenly the Monk acrobatic'ed his way to flank (or just fast moved, because you know, they can) and suddenly everyone enjoys a +10 swing in the to hit and now the BBEG is toast.

Or maybe, they really do suck, because its all over the message boards.

Shadow Lodge

Bomanz wrote:
Semantics.

Yes. Thank you. That was the joke.


Bomanz wrote:

Semantics.

Read the Monk hate threads.

All the continual whargbargle and theory clearly shows that Monks can't do anything past a certain level.

Someone in this thread indicated the "sweet spot" is lvl 6ish.

Monk may not be "hitting" something for damage, but if the BBEG suddenly takes a -4 to his AC, and all your party members (including the Monk) who are at 3/4 BAB (like the forlorn lowly horrible unplayable Rogue, say) now get the joy of an additional +4 to hit, and maybe more if suddenly the Monk acrobatic'ed his way to flank (or just fast moved, because you know, they can) and suddenly everyone enjoys a +10 swing in the to hit and now the BBEG is toast.

Or maybe, they really do suck, because its all over the message boards.

Yeah, over the years I've seen monks work really well with heavies. Don't bother trying to do the most damage, really assist a fighter/barb/ranger/rogues. Bro-team it up. I think you really get it, and refuse to just go along with the monks are crap majority.

Honestly, I was trying to explain the importance of monk teamwork and tactics and it being far more important than system mastery, some just refuse to get it. HE DOESN'T HAVE FULL BAB, THE MONK IS CRAP.

Urgh. He doesn't need it.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Bruno concur with Bomanz and 3.5 Loyalist.

Bruno make many DPS happy when he grapple and pin stupid bad guy. Barbarians smile, Gunslingers laugh and Rogues dance with joy.

They even happier when Bruno grapple bad guy and then grapple-move him across battlefield so Bruno's friends can make a full attack.

(Bruno can roll a bagful of dice for damage when needed, but just as fun to set up other people to ginsu monsters.)


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Yeah, over the years I've seen monks work really well with heavies. Don't bother trying to do the most damage, really assist a fighter/barb/ranger/rogues. Bro-team it up. I think you really get it, and refuse to just go along with the monks are crap majority.

Honestly, I was trying to explain the importance of monk teamwork and tactics and it being far more important than system mastery, some just refuse to get it. HE DOESN'T HAVE FULL BAB, THE MONK IS CRAP.

I'm not sure if we want to turn this into another monk hate thread... That didn't seem like the topic, unless I missed something. That said, Monk's have full BAB TWF when flurrying, and full BAB when using a BAB. There are other classes that don't get nearly as much hate as the monk that have 3/4 BAB.

Of course, this monk isn't tripping any better than any other PC. He does however have the redirection class feature(Limited use), and unbalancing counter. I think its pretty cool, but its limited. How many times is he using it per day? Once per round, and limited by class level has to run out sometime!


Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno concur with Bomanz and 3.5 Loyalist.

Bruno make many DPS happy when he grapple and pin stupid bad guy. Barbarians smile, Gunslingers laugh and Rogues dance with joy.

They even happier when Bruno grapple bad guy and then grapple-move him across battlefield so Bruno's friends can make a full attack.

(Bruno can roll a bagful of dice for damage when needed, but just as fun to set up other people to ginsu monsters.)

And I helped!

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