I hope they don't release any more classes. Archetypes are ok as long as well playtested.
I would prefer they skip a book in the core line and use that time to do a thorough errata and reprint the 4 core player books (core, apg, um and uc). There are so many questions on these boards about the rules and the way some things interact that it is about time to do this. I'm not asking for a complete pathfinder 1.5 where everyone would be forced to buy new book, just a large clarification/errata.
Someone is bound to ask why this is needed:
Look at all the error or eratta threads. Core and APG aren't so bad, but ultimate magic and ultimate combat were full of typo's, poorly described abilities and imbalanced archetypes. I love both those books, just don't like that some things vary drastically from table to table purely based poor ability descriptions.
I'm seeing 12 feats already and you still need to be able to reload as a free action. I'm also assuming that you are factoring in named bullet on every attack, which means you would need to cast it 20ish times prior to combat since it only works for a single hit.
Not saying this combo isn't good, just not 20k good. Maybe I'm missing something? If you have it built out, please either post or pm me.
I'm playing a Master Summoner in Skulls and Shackles, it's a ton of fun. I printed out every single summon monster spell with augment summoning applied and have binders'full'o'summons. This really helps the speed of combat. I use the eidelon as a skill monkey and really only while we are on the boat (he is our captain lol).
If you want to stay hidden, you might look at skill focus: stealth and hellcat stealth. This should keep you hidden in most situation where invis isn't enough.
Wind Chime wrote:
Rake isn't as effective as bite. While you are correct they changed the way rake works for the eidelon, it counts against the maximum number of natural attacks.
This really isn't that bad damage wise. You are making the assumption that all of the rays:
1) Hit (fairly easy since it's touch AC)
At 15th and using similar or less resources, many classes will be ahead of the actual damage output you see.
I had a trickster in a group at high level. They did fairly well and used the scorching ray exactly how you mention.... and other classes did more damage and had better AC. Only thing the trickster was the "best" at in the group was hiding.
I agree with multiple posters that this change seems to be inconsistant with RAW and a bandage where there really wasn't a problem.
The 3.5 volley rule made sense due to the high number of spells that could fire LOTS of rays in one round and the fact that you could metamagic split rays and quicken for something like 90+ rays in a round, all with sneak attack.
This is Pathfinder, not D&D though, and any previous rules unless printed in a core book, do not carry over. Paizo hasn't put in a split ray metamagic (thank goodness!) and only has a few spells that involve multiple attack rolls per spell. Holy Ice is the worst of the multiple attack roll spells and it is balanced due to the fact that it targets regular AC, uses wisdom and is cleric/oracle, so requires UMD and gold.
Telekinesis isn't really an issue either. This does gain the benefit of at least using int, but still targets regular AC. DM's who allow characters to carry 100's of collosal javelins is the issue here, not the rules or the spell. Even if said caster had enough strength or a magic bag to carry all of those, it would take at least a standard action to "draw" all of these (I would rule a move action to draw each javelin unless stored in a bag and would require a full round to dump them all out) and then a 2nd standard to cast the spell. If they are using a quickened telekinesis to do this, they have 9th level spell slots and should be doing crazy damage or effects anyway.
Fierly Shuriken is the only spell I see potential issues with as far as getting a very large number of attacks. But even this is less damage than many of the other builds people can come up with.
Also, the whole weapon-like arguement is not mentioned anywhere in the rules and causes a number of issues. This is a new rule and would need to be fully explained, not just glossed over to fix something else.
If it has an attack roll, you can apply sneak attack (assuming you also meet the rules for sneak attack). Sneak attack says "the rogue's attack deals extra damage...". The key word here is attack, not weapon, not spell, just attack.
Let's assume Bob has 4 claw attacks and all have grab. Bob also has the following item, granting him constrict.
Is the following legal/the correct interpretation:
Bob starts combat next to his opponent and declares a full attack.
I believe above is all correct. Here is where I am not sure on the rules:
Can he continue his full attack? Meaning, attack with claw 2, 3 and 4 and use the exact same routine?
I am assuming you mean single target damage... so synthesis summoner is clearly top, otherwise casters AoE'ing armies is probably highest.
Other builds of note:
All of the above are capable of 1k+ in the right situation.
I dont get how a monk has such a high level of success against anything but the goblins at the beggining of the adventure. Its actually really hard to trip things, especially as you get up in levels. Those ogres have huge bonuses (high strength, size bonuses ratial HD etc) to their CMD. How is the monk tripping them? My guess is that you used not standard stat generation and this monk has really high stats, because with a 15 point buy, i dont see how this happens. wrote:
Ogre's only have an 18 CMD. Some of the specialized ones have around 25. The characters are approximately lvl 9 at that point. Those are EASY CMD's for that level. I would guess the character has a 50%+ chance to trip against boss fights and 90%+ on typical fights.
Keep in mind that when using unarmed strike (or any weapon) to trip, all bonus's to hit also go to cmb. This is how people get such high trip/sunder/disarm compared to the other combat moves.
I finished Carrion Crown a few months ago and one of my players was a flowing monk. He was middle or the pack on damage, but had the 2nd best AC (50+) in the group and the highest hit and cmb. So I completely understand where the op is coming from.
He would take around 5 to 10 AoO a turn and usually get 75% of those to make the target flat footed (the bigger issue with the archetype imo). Needless to say, he was our Arcane Tricksters best friend since he practically guaranteed ranged sneak attack every round.
It was a very powerful character and really only multi-legged or naturally flying/untripable creatures have a good chance of negating the tactic, even at later levels, assuming your group works together.
I agree the op is overreacting a bit, but a good player and this archetype can really help trivialize a large majority of fights.
If you are going to be the primary healer and are set on Magus and Cleric, I would just do 6 Magus then the rest cleric. With 6 Magus you can use the cleric spell list with Spell Combat, effectively casting any spell you know and taking a full attack. You might think about picking up the metamagic that lets you change touch spells to ranged touch so you could heal from a distance and take a full attack.
If you want more punch from the Magus spells, 4 levels of Mystic Theuge could get you up to 10 cl in Magus. There is also the trait that provides 2 caster levels up to max character level, which would reduce the thuege to 2 levels. Magus 6/Cleric 12/MT 2 for a 20 lvl build.
I don't mind the pace, but I think that editing and rules issues are starting to rise. The Golarian specific books pace is fine as it is and are what I'm mostly picking up now. I also agree that game add ons are a great thing as they add to a game and don't alter the power curve with every release.
"Core" books are starting to bother me though. Core and APG were extremely well put together and while they have some balance/editing issues, they are few. Since then, "Core" books have continually been of lower quality in my opinion. Ultimate Magic had a number of balance and editing issues and Ultimate Combat took it a step further with poorly written archetypes and a complete shattering of game balance. UC is still an amazing book and better than what the majority of RPG companies put out, but was not at the level I expected.
There needs to be more beta testing with power gamers and people who are truly good at designing weird characters and "abusing" the rules. Editing needs to be near perfect in core books. I know that the DM has the power to change anything, but there are some things that a DM shouldn't have to change. I feel frustrated having to ban or alter half of a "core" book because my players find broken combo's within 24 hours of a book being release. When Pathfinder launched, Paizo had done an amazing job of limiting the "dipping" that was rampant in 3.0 and 3.5. I am starting to see this done constantly in builds again though and this saddens me greatly.
I love Pathfinder and it is my preferred gaming system and Golarian is an amazing setting. I can't get enough of the region books and the history of the world. I would like more focus on books with that content and less on rules except when extremely well thought out and tested.
Fiendish and half-fiend templates are a great idea. Good to know they technically work, but as Dudemeister said, as the DM it doesn't have to be 100% legal, just fun and add variety to the fights without being overly taxing to create.
Thanks for all the ideas so far. I'll stat up a few different good guys with the templates, make some erinyes with class levels/different subtypes in the morning. I'm off to bed for now.
I had forgotten about them, good catch. At CR8, a group of those would be decent fight early in the dungeon. Would take some serious work to template/class level a bunch of those though to give the fights variety. I also forgot to mention that most of the group is power gamers and fights above their CR. I also have 6 players and the dungeon is huge as it is going to advance them 2-3 levels.
Cleric/Paladin/Holy Vin Sarenrae (AC is 40 something and low save is 17 I think)
Most have Outflank and Paired Opportunist so their damage output is very good.
I'm designing a dungeon for my greatly altered version of Carrion Crown right now. The idea is that it will be guarded by creatures who were devout to Aroden, Imodae and Sarenrae in ages past. These creatures are now corrupted though and have turned to evil(see spoiler). My questions are:
1) Would the most likely outsider for them be Inevitables (Aroden), Angels (Imodae) and Agathion (Sarenrae)?
2) Since they have now been corrupted, do you think it would be best to run them as written in the bestiaries or should I use their opposites and just make them look like Inevitables and Angels?
3) Are there any other creatures you think would fit this theme well? I already have some Ice Elementals near the begining of the dungeon since the entrance was completely frozen over and they have moved into the first level ages ago.
CR should be 8 to 17 as I plan to have this level them from 11.5 (current level) to around 14-15.
PS - not sure if I should have put this in the Carrion Crown thread or not, feel free to move if needed.
For some backstory: Possible CC Spoiler:
The idea of this dungeon is that it was created after the fall of Tar-Baphon to house a corrupted artifact formerly known as Sunlight and redubbed Nightfire post corruption. I altered the Mace of Pharasma to hold the soul of a former high cleric of Pharasma. The cleric who now inhabits the Mace had a younger brother who was a Paladin of Sarenrae whose soul was also placed inside of the Scimitar he weilded in life. Both of these people in life were pure of heart and fought together against all that was undead and evil and continued to do so for generations through others who wielded them.
During the Tyrants rule, Sunlight was stolen by one of his generals and was slowly corrupted over the years becoming Nightfire. I made it so that the Mace of Pharasma was lost when this general faced off against the current weilder of the Mace. The two weapons/brothers collided and fought a mental war and the Mace went soring to the heavens (not to be seen again until as planned in the AP) losing the unseen battle and leaving it's weilder to be struck down.
Later, after sealing the Tyrant under Gallowspire, the nights of Ozem and Sarenrae hunted the former general, defeated him and retook Nightfire/Sunlight. They tried to cleanse the blade, but all efforts failed as the blade slowly corrupted all that would try to use it. After years of trying, and discovering that it was indestructable, the same mages/clerics that created the great seal, created a dungeon to house Nightfire. They then teleported the entire dungeon inside a mountain of unknown location.
My players recently put together many clues to pinpoint this dungeon and have need of the knowledge Nightfire posses about who the heir of Tar-Baphon is. Currently the Mace is not conscious and has not spoke to the players and will not unless it and it's brother are brought together again in battle. Over the years Nightfire has worked it's corruption onto it's protectors and now works with them to find a way to escape. This dungeon cannot be teleported into or out of and has only one entrance which can only be opened from the outside and my players are about open this entrance. They must defeat all within the dungeon or release one of the most potent evil artifacts on the world if they fail.
Was a int/dex build with weapon finesse. The attack was pretty good as I used the arcane pool and enduring blade to longterm buff my unarmed strike. Don't need the dmg output of a normal Magus as you just put everything to sleep.
You could either use amulet of mighty fists or magic fang. Once you have IUS, most DM's I play with say Magic Weapon works as well since it says a monk can use it instead of Magic Fang.
Edit: forgot to mention depending on DM you might have to take 1 level of witch due to not technically having the "hex class feature".
It's not crippling at all. You will be amazing for perception, stealth and init in all terrains. You should go first 99% of the time meaning you have time to get into position and use a wand (terrain bond, 4th level ranger) to make wherever you are your favorite terrain. You will be 2nd to 3rd dmg tier depending on build against a creature that isn't from one of the 3 terrains you have dominance in and 1st tier against ones from the 3 you do. If you can qualify for Nature Warden as well, you become near impossible to hit after 2 levels due to insight bonus to AC equal to half your terrain bonus.
For skulls and shackles this guy would be insane. Having not read the path, I'm guessing water and underground terrains would cover 75% of the terrain and creature types you find.
My assumption is that terrain mastery works exactly like the ranger favored terrain and only adds +2 to a new terrain and +2 to another. I know it currently doesn't read that way, but I think it is safe to say that will be changed on second printing or sooner.
And Davor is right, terrain dominance is what makes this crazy. You will have 3 terrains that your bonus counts as favored enemy bonuses.
This is a really good guide. I love the detail on everything, especially the animal companions and summoning options. The feat options for animal companions only seems to include the base option feats though. Once the companion has some int, a lot more feats open up and teamwork feats become amazing. Nothing like having Outflank with your companion. Or Lookout with a high perception companion.
I'm still reading through it all, so I'm not sure if you have touched on effective 1 level dips or multiclassing at all. I really like 1 ranger/19 worldwalker druid. You have to take a feat (from UC, can't remember name right now) but effectively you end up with full favored enemy and terrain on top of all the normal druid goodies.
I agree the part that takes this over the top is the potential to get mutliple full attacks before someone even goes. The problem isn't with Sap Master, it's with Teamwork feats. Without teamwork feats, the only time this build would get 2 full attacks before the opponent acted was if it went on the surprise round and had the ability to pounce (10 alchemist) and the opponent didn't act on the surprise and had lower initiative.
It's Lookout and Coordinated Charge teamed with pounce that give this guy the chance to take 2 to 3 full attacks before opponent acts. The quickest way to do this is Alchemist 10 teamed with Cavalier 9(+1 anything full Bab). Also keep in mind a well built Barbarian, Druid or Summoner would be just as brutal in this combo since they can get pounce at 10 or earlier as well.
I'm still working on a few different builds. I'll most likely settle for a little lower damage potential to keep survivability up and make it so I stand on my own the whole way without the Cavalier.
From the research I've done, it appears you can apply archetypes to things like ninja, samurai or antipaladin as long as they still have the abilities from the base class. The only part that would be a DM call and not legal by RAW is whether a ninja could take extra tricks with feats since there is no feat called Extra Ninja Trick.
I find it funny that people think this is a monstrosity. Most of the sap master builds don't really get good until 8+ and not insane until 10-15. There are also a number of weaknesses: Uncanny Dodge if going alchemist route, creatures immune to sneak attack or nonlethal, fortification armor/abilities, most of the builds have poor saves, extremely feat intensive, most are dependent on intimidate/shaken condition etc. Many classes can get similar damage output at 10+. A good DM can make things challanging no matter what a player makes.
Hmm, so you are correct about being able to use a kick with just the feat IUS.
It still brings to question why all the additional info was given in the monk class. Why not just say "the monk get IUS as a bonus feat and has no off hand so deals full strength with any unarmed strike" and leave it at that? By RAW from the unarmed strike and natural attack section this is legal. I still like our house rule about the 1 level monk as it puts a drawback to making builds like this but keeps them possible.
My groups play that if you want to use unarmed strike with a foot, headbutt or any limb other than your hands, you must have 1 level of monk. The reasoning behind this is that the feat Improved Unarmed Strike only states that you don't provoke and deal lethal damage.
The Monk reads:
A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed.
This means the monk gets a better version of IUS than someone taking the feat. It specifically calls out being able to use other limbs, which would mean it is outside of the normal rules. If using claws to make natural attacks you cannot use unarmed strikes to kick unless you are a monk.
RAW you can take TWF and use Flurry of Manuevers. Not sure if it was intended though.
Scout's charge calls out that uncanny dodge defends against it. I'm going to work on this some more tonight.
Ride by Attack is interesting, but I don't mind the AoO since most likely the Cavalier will charge first taking the 1 AoO the creature gets in most fights. Mounted feats could be intersting if there is room. I'll build the feats out today for this guy.
I realize I have asked a bunch of questions in this so far. Here is what I'm still looking for:
1. More ways to make people flat footed. So far the potentially usable methods include Shatter Defences, Scout's charge, friend with flowing monk and friend with Distracting Attack. Catch off Guard is possible too, but very situational.
2. Ways to get Shatter Defences early or without having to qualify for it. This is mostly to find a way to skip Dazzling Display.
3. Quickest way to get pounce? Is there a superior method than Alchemist 10 that doesn't give up much sneak attack to get it?
Paladins shine against evil creatures that are an obvious threat. My group is extreme power gamers and I have to mix things up to make combat challanging. Combat Manuevers, Stealth/Invis, battlefield management spells, summons, flight, burrowing, natural hazards, traps, are a few ways I deal with the power level and keep it interesting. I alter the AP's a bit and use them as the base to build from. Are you running an AP, homebrew, module? How many players? What are the other characters? These things will help.
I'm not a fan of telling people to power down. It's being punished for coming up with an intelligent build. You can typically find a way to challange a character.
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for! I think I may have figured out a way to make this work. I had looked at it earlier and put it off as inferior, but that was when I was leaning more towards the build that was mostly ninja.
The lvl 8 Skirmisher ability is ok, but pointless in this build. It's pointless because it's limited to once a round. The level 4 Scouts Charge is where the potential is.
The original build was Vivisectionist/Beastmorph Alchemist 16/Nija 2/MMMonk 1/Unarmed Figter 1. This gives pounce at alchemist 10 and you only have 2 non sneak attack levels in the whole build (I posted the level breakdown wrong up a few posts). To use the Scout Archetype I think it would have to be Alchemist 15/Ninja or Rogue 4/Monk 1.
I'll be charging a lot since the Cavalier will be using Coordinated Charge with Tactician starting at level 10. He charges with his mount so the whole group can charge as an immediate action.
So here is where I'm not 100% sure I'm not missing something... otherwise this is amazing and perfect. Say I have a really good initiative and almost always go before the Cavalier. So I always delay and go immediately after the Cavalier. I'm not readying, but permanently lowering init to go immediately after the Cavalier acts. His turn comes and he charges.
I then charge as an immediate action and get a full attack due to pounce and deal double sneak attack due to Scout's Charge and Sap Master and finish with a Dirty Trick to make them shaken with flurry of manuevers. Then the Cavalier finishes his turn.
It's my turn now since I held to right after the Cavalier and I full attack since I'm next to my oppenent. Assuming I have Shatter Defences, after the first hit they are flat footed again so x2 sneak attack on the additional attacks. I use the extra manuever at the end of the full attack this time if the target is still alive for Dirty Trick/Grapple/Trip/Disarm as needed.
If everyone has the teamwork feat Lookout, I might be able to get 3 fulls attacks before they even get to go! The full combo wouldn't be going until 15, but would be strong at all levels with boosts at 5 from Sap Master, Coordinated Charge at 10 and pounce at 15.
Do most DM's allow rogue archetypes for Ninja? How about a ninja taking extra rogue talent for a ninja trick? Otherwise I have to go Rogue 4 instead of ninja 4. Not a huge deal, but I like ninja more. And I totally missed Distracting Attack. If I could get someone to take a dip for 2 levels into rogue/ninja that would eleminate so many feats from the build.
Thanks for Catch off Guard, there may be some great uses with that. I'll have to think about that one some more.
Essentially the goal is using Sap Master and finding classes/abilities/feats that synergize with it for a jade reagent campaign I'll be playing in soon.
So obviously it will be a non lethal sneak attack build. I'm leaning towards going unarmed to make use of Knockout Artist as well. There are a couple different builds I'm looking at. Ninja 16/Maneuver Master Monk 2/Unarmed Fighter 2 or Vivisectionist/Beastmorph Alchemist 16/Manuever Master Monk 2/Unarmed Fighter 2 are the most likely with what I have so far. The idea here is I use the extra manuever first from monk to use Dirty Trick to make them shaken. Getting them shaken this way is better than Enforcer in my opinion since it doesn't require hitting them using up one of my attacks. Once shaken I take my full attack and the first hit makes them flat footed due to Shattered Defenses. Then I sneak attack them to death.
So what I'm looking for is something like the flowing monks ability that will make people flat footed. This way I can toss Dazzling Display and Shattered Defense from the build and possibly get the combo going sooner.
I realize that if I had a flowing monk in the group I could accomplish this, but someone is playing a Flowing Monk in the campaign I currently run, so it is unlikely to be played in this one since most of the players are the same.
The only class I know will be in the group in a Cavalier, most likely going Beast Master. I think his build was Cavalier 16, Paladin 2, Tactician Fighter 2 or something like that.
Feinting does not make someone flat footed. Being Flat footed, you are denied dex to AC. But having dex denied to AC does not make you flat footed.
I'm sure I'm missing a class ability or two somewhere that makes someone flat footed or provides early access to Shatter Defences. Flowing monk 2 would be perfect except the DC is based off Monk level.
Other than during the suprise and potentially first round of combat before acting, can anyone think of a way to make someone flat footed?
The only ones I can come up with are Shatter Defenses and Flowing Monk lvl 2.
Semi related, does anyone know of a way to get Shatter Defenses without having to pick up Dazzling Display?
I agree with Stratagemini. You would only gain 2 lvls of effective unarmed damage from the 4 levels of ninja that aren't counting as monk for purposes of unarmed strike. The ninja trick already makes the levels count as monk. Keep in mind a monks robe would push you another 5 though.
So at 17th level you said you would be Monk 3 and Ninja 14. You would get 3 from Monk, 10 from Ninja, 2 from Monastic Legacy and 5 from Monks Robe. Effectively lvl 20 Monk for unarmed strike.
I personally do also think the monk dice continue to scale into epic, but there is nothing official on this in Pathfinder.
I DM for a group that is built around AoO's right now. Everyone has Outflank, Paired Opportunist and Combat Reflex's and are dex based characters.
The main catalyst for combat is the flowing monk. He is all dex and wisdom with mobility and other ac buffs.
He starts with running around the battle field provoking as much as possible from movement. He has all 3 panther style feats, so anyone who takes an AoO on him from movement provokes a Retalitory Strike from the Flowing Monk and his strike resolves before their AoO. If he hits they take a -2 attack and damage on their AoO as well.
As soon as he takes his retalitory strike, he free actions into Snake Style due to the Combat Style Master feet making it a free action to change styles. Now they take the AoO they have on him. If they miss, which they usually do since they are often at -2 attack and his already insane AC, he gets an AoO on them. Keep in mind if he hits with an AoO the opponent gets a reflex save and if they fail they are flat footed, which is amazing for any sneak attack build and especially a non-lethal one.
His AoO triggers paired opportunist for all adjacent allies, giving them AoO's and if any of these crit, anyone flanking with that person gets another AoO due to Outflank and so would those adjacent to them from Paired Opportunist. This usually equals dead bad guy.
Other key abilities:
Once per round immediate action trip and reposition an enemy that attacks the Flowing Monk. He uses this to help set up flanks as needed to maximize Outflank and potentially trip and use Vicious Stomp which again triggers Paired Opportunist for his allies.
This combo is brutal when all the other characters are critting on 15-20.
The Teamwork Feat Lookout is actually really effective at providing a full attack on the surprise round for an Inquisitor, Cavalier or a group if they all commit to it.
I DM a group where the Paladin, the Paladin's 6int wolf mount, the Druid, the Druid's 3int Cat and the Arcane Trickster all have it. The only person without it is the cleric that is purely devoted to healing and buffing. They also all have full ranks into perception and most have a +5 perception item as well.
They move in a set formation with the trickster at point looking for traps. Their formation typically means everyone is adjacent to at least 2 others with Lookout, but usually 3 or 4. This consistantly provides full attacks on the surprise round to 2-4 of the 5 and a standard action to those that failed the perception check.
This pretty much makes mosters sneaking up impossible once see invis, scent and other abilities come into play. This also provides the party the ability to quickly decimate targets when they are the ones triggering the surprise.
To top it off, most of them have or will have Outflank and Paired Opportunist as well. The Paladin crits on 15-20 (triggering AoO for everyone else threatening, then gets an AoO himself due to them getting an AoO), the wolf trips (lots of AoO potential if the creature gets a chance to stand up), the Druid and Cat pounce for a ton of damage, and the trickster ranged sneak attacks. With the potential for each character and pet having a full attack and 1 to 3 AoO's, many fights are over in the first round or sometimes even in the surprise round. They also rarely miss due to creatures being flat footed and getting +4 from flanking and additional bonuses from it being prone if the trip works.
Needless to say, this combo can make things frustrating as a DM sometimes :)