|
@ Strayshift and Messy, they were designed by Ashiel here on the boards, to give credit where it's due. :)
Never read it, but I know it's a thematic option I'd dearly love to see in Pathfinder.I would hate and despise it in Pathfinder. As was pointed out, Iron Heroes is a solid super-low magic system for D20. It’s out there, available and supported. No reason for a PF version.There is a great reason: People wanting it in Pathfinder.
Now, if you don't, then hey, you don't need to use it. It would be like how they made guns an optional, non-essential part of their world.
Yep. I know I'd love to be able to play an ascetic monk alongside the rest of the party in a Golarion-based adventure path. Right now, you're forced to weigh yourself down with all manner of decidedly non-ascetic and visual-wrecking doodads. But with alternate rules support, you could make a monk that looks like Irori's image actually work without sacrificing all of your flavor.
That's something I would dearly love to get to play.
I'll certainly be using Ashiel's rules as a GM to represent a certain order of monks in an upcoming campaign and make them available to players. But many groups require official support for things before even considering certain options. It would be a shame to see the core themes of the monk locked out because of that.
|
@Coriat: that's a pretty cool expose. You make a convincing point that emphasizing the importance of a magic weapon isn't wrong - but I don't think it should always be the case.
For example, when playing a monk, it's annoying that when playing a class that looks like it should not be interested in equipment at all, it is actually at least as needy as other classes.
Blueluck's idea sounds exciting. Sure, it's metagamey, but I agree that WBL was already kind of metagamey. All those adventurers looking to make a fortune, but when they do, instead of enjoying it, they invest it into more gear because the players know there's bigger stuff yet to come.
I think the biggest thing I dislike about WBL is how poorly it works if the PCs get their hands on vast wealth, like the finances of a kingdom. Sure, there may be an uprising when people figure out they've diverted the entire treasury and fiscal year into their pockets, but with the power they can get from it, they'll be like gods. Likewise, WBL groans if one (but not all!) of the PCs should set up a lucrative business.
Divorcing magic items from WBL makes you freeer as the GM to go to extremes of wealth and poverty.
===
I've been pondering my own take on magic items, which would work roughly like this:
1) consumable items not changed; those are basically a single spell stored for later consumption.
2) all permanent magic items work because they're spirits inhabiting an object. Therefore all permanent magic items are at least semi-intelligent. Maybe their alignment also tends to synchronize with the owner (going both ways), perhaps using UCamp's conflict point system.
3) magic item spirits become more powerful by gaining XP. Whenever the owner gains XP, he also distributes an equal amount of XP among his items.
Point 3 implies that carrying lots of different items means spreading the item XP widely, instead of advancing one item thoroughly.
Point 3 also means that family heirlooms will tend to be more powerful than newly made items, but point 2 also means that looting magic items from enemies entails some risks; is your will stronger than the will of (The One Ring, The Palantir)?
Point 2 and 3 would also tend to guarantee that any significantly powerful magic item would have lots of history associated with it, and that the relics of powerful heroes would be much sought-after.
Point 2 also gives you good motive to destroy some items because they're just too aligned.
|
Point 2 also means that an item may aid the PC in the completion of a specific goal, allowing the GM to set epic challenges that he can be confident the PC can handle.
But not be a millstone round the GM's neck, being used over and over and over and over, or if the player decides to wreck the tone of the campaign with an off-story rampage.
"Hrothgar's spear, mighty it was, and gifted by the hand of the Valkyries, polished with their tresses, so it shone like the noonday sun, and struck fear into the sons of Ymir, so they wailed at its sight..." may be awesome when the GM wants to run an 'Against the Giants' style campaign, but as soon as the giant threat is over, the player has a reason to hand it back (to the city treasury, to the temple of Odin, to the Valkyries, etc), and next adventure could see them quest for the right to use something else, that fits the context of the campaign.
It could refuse to work for an owner who shows insufficient honour (such as a player who wants to become a tyrant or steal the wealth of his people), being a normal spear, or even turning in his hand to bite him in the back.
Obviously, this concept does exist in the game already, in the form of intelligent weapons, but should it not apply to other kinds of item as well?
|
|
Yeah, if you want to make items feel more special (which many people want), I think items intelligent (with opinions and stories) could go a long way.
Turning the slot system on its head, allowing the concentration of many powers in one item, but discouraging having many items, could also help.
Note that in my proposal, it's still possible to find items way beyond your own level - like the staff used by an archmage, that's going to be a powerful (and possibly opinionated) item.
I like having a magic item. If I'm King Arthur, I have Excalibur. If I'm Green Lantern, I have my ring. If I'm Thor, I have Mjolnir.
Thor had more than just Mjolnir. He also had gauntlets and belt of strength (this is the source of the Hammer of Thunderbolts + Belt of Giant Strength + Gauntlets of Ogre Power combo in D&D), as well as a chariot pulled by goats that could be eaten and would self-resurrect.
As for Green Lantern, when your one item does THAT much, you don't need other stuff - that goes double for Superman and his grab-bag of random powers.
Personally, I've always been an advocate for scaling magic items. If a +1 sword becomes a +2 sword when you're (say) 7th level, +3 when you're 11th (etc.), there's less incentive to chase the upgrade curve of replacement items. Your first magic sword can be your last.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Blueluck's idea sounds exciting. Sure, it's metagamey, but I agree that WBL was already kind of metagamey. All those adventurers looking to make a fortune, but when they do, instead of enjoying it, they invest it into more gear because the players know there's bigger stuff yet to come.
I think the biggest thing I dislike about WBL is how poorly it works if the PCs get their hands on vast wealth, like the finances of a kingdom. Sure, there may be an uprising when people figure out they've diverted the entire treasury and fiscal year into their pockets, but with the power they can get from it, they'll be like gods. Likewise, WBL groans if one (but not all!) of the PCs should set up a lucrative business.
Thanks:)
That's one of the main reasons I created a new system for my campaign. I wanted the characters to use wealth like wealth, not like a game mechanic. When all the gold isn't being used to buy magic items, it's fun to see it used for charity, bribes, building armies, investing, showing off. . .
.
I've been pondering my own take on magic items, which would work roughly like this. . . magic item spirits become more powerful by gaining XP.
I stuck with gold as the measurement because the math is already built into the game - it meant less work for me, and less chance of screwing something up. If in your system one gold=one XP then you have the same mechanic I did, but with a cooler flavor.
Bunch of stuff.
Hey man. No spoilers!
@Coriat: that's a pretty cool expose. You make a convincing point that emphasizing the importance of a magic weapon isn't wrong - but I don't think it should always be the case.
For example, when playing a monk, it's annoying that when playing a class that looks like it should not be interested in equipment at all, it is actually at least as needy as other classes.
Yeah, I would like to see much better support for an ascetic monk in particular. I don't enjoy such monk flavor very much personally (or, really, monks at all), but on behalf of those who do I wish that PF's Vow of Poverty was not such a joke.
I just don't like the idea that was being advanced of lessening the potency of magical arms or items, or of implementing systems that eliminate the "Christmas tree effect" for all sorts of characters rather than just for a few who draw their power from other sources. Leave room in the game for characters with arms and armor of such potency that they make or break their wielders' fortunes, and I'd gladly scoot over to make room for characters wielding the jawbone of an ass as well.
Blueluck's idea sounds exciting. Sure, it's metagamey, but I agree that WBL was already kind of metagamey. All those adventurers looking to make a fortune, but when they do, instead of enjoying it, they invest it into more gear because the players know there's bigger stuff yet to come.
Our game uses a system to ensure that wealth over a certain level is not earmarked for combat purposes as well. I think it is a great idea. Money, and spending it on things other than personal gear, goes hand in hand with increasing the character's connection with the game world. Whether your character is giving it to friends, or investing in causes, or building a trade empire, or just building solid gold statues of themselves... it all increases the player's investment in the game.
Note: I did not read the whole thread.
I've always seen it like this. The characters have these amazing magic items but, those items don't define you . Think on Drizzt Do'Urden you can hate the character or what ever he is pretty decked out in magic items.
- two magic swords
- boots of speed
- magic armor
- statuette of panther
- unicorn summoning whistle
- magic bow
- cloak occasionally
My point is none of those items make the character the character makes the items.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This has probably already been said upthread, but my own dislike of the magic item is that the abundant power of stat boosting items, coined with the limited slots system, means that the interesting items are usually rejected in favour of the more powerful ones.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bunch of stuff.Hey man. No spoilers!
Ah, sorry about that man. I knew it was pushing it a bit, posting so soon after the Epic of Gilgamesh was released, but I got carried away.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This has probably already been said upthread, but my own dislike of the magic item is that the abundant power of stat boosting items, coined with the limited slots system, means that the interesting items are usually rejected in favour of the more powerful ones.
Also; the interesting items are generally vastly overpriced for what they do, so the stat boosting items are that much more attractive. A Periapt of Health is 7500gp, while an Amulet of Natural Armor +2 is 8000gp. Given that attacks on your AC are WAY more common than diseases, the smart money is on the Amulet.
|
They clearly don't, and besides the fact, in low money settings spellcasters unfairly dominate the game.
So about those inherent abilities? Yeah, that doesn't do anything. Fighter with mundane equipment vs. Wizard. Oh, you no have Cloak of Resistance but I can cast Fox's Cunning? Phantasmal Killer GG (and that's an underpowered spell).
There's also the fact that Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment become fantastic in low-wealth games, when it becomes more expensive to buy a permanent enhancement bonus than to spend a spell slot or two on hour/level bonuses.
That's one of the main reasons I created a new system for my campaign. I wanted the characters to use wealth like wealth, not like a game mechanic. When all the gold isn't being used to buy magic items, it's fun to see it used for charity, bribes, building armies, investing, showing off. . .
I also enjoy those things.
(Like the melee inquisitor in my game who enjoyed stealthing ahead and whacking things with swords, got a spell storing sword with built-in Silent Spell metamagic rod worked into it's hilt, and whose only thought was oohh that'll be worth loads to sell.)
If I were a stealthy sword-wielding inquisitor I would love the heck out of that item.
The characters have these amazing magic items but, those items don't define you . Think on Drizzt Do'Urden you can hate the character or what ever he is pretty decked out in magic items.My point is none of those items make the character the character makes the items.
- two magic swords
- boots of speed
- magic armor
- statuette of panther
- unicorn summoning whistle
- magic bow
- cloak occasionally
Drizzt is an epic level character by the time he has seven magic items. Yet it is not uncommon for a PC to have twice that many by mid level.
Two of his more interesting items (statue & whistle) would typically be sold off by players in order to buy a rings of protection, belt's of strength, amulets of natural armor, etc.
I think Drizzt is a great example of how magic items should be done, but he's not a very good example of how magic items happen in Pathfinder.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I guess it all depends on how readily players can turn loot into items they want.
But even in a bog-standard, by-the-book PFRPG campaign, simple magic items can become more magical with descriptions that bring them to life. A +2 icy burst heartseeker weapon can becomes something more:
As you grasp the hilt and gaze into the midnight depths of the blade's blue-black surface, the cutting edge crusts over with frozen droplets of blood the color of a bruise, misting in the sudden cold. Though your fingers stiffen and palms grow numb with cold, you feel something skittering up and down the haft... something old, and cold, its brooding anger turning to murderous glee as it jerks towards your foes when your strikes would fall short. On landing a devastating blow, a gust of freezing mist surrounds them, and rust-red snow erupts from the gash, twinkling in the torchlight. There is no odor of blood as the ice flies past your helmeted face, but the rapidly warming slush beneath your feet is beginning to reek with an all-too-familiar coppery tang.
That, of course, is easier for weapons with special abilities. What about a simple +3 longsword? Well, how is it improving your strikes? Is its blade impossibly sharp, something like a slip in space itself cutting your foes rather than the otherwise ordinary weapon? Do the gaps in your foe's defenses suddenly become as obvious as bloodstains under blacklight (or other, more thematically-appropriate metaphor)? Is it so light in your hand you could hold it outstretched for days? Does a shimmer in the air, like heat haze, sweep over it when you strike a crushing blow? Does a silent, unseen presence surround and guide you when you wield it? And on and on and on.
And as for the other stuff. How often do people skip the basics? What color is your cloak of resistance? What is it made of? Are there any designs on it? Then go to the other stuff, if necessary. Does it smell of mint (Will), cinnamon (Ref), and cloves (Fort)? When you wear it, are you less easily discomfitted by unpleasant surprises in general just as you avoid fireballs more adroitly?
When you wear magic full plate, does the clanking of the joints that so irritates others take on a musical tone for you? When sparks are struck on your armor, do they linger, traveling upwards in a whorl of light?
When wearing hide and leather, do you feel the faintest echoes of the creature it once was, warning you of danger through a near-subliminal empathic link? When moving, do the folds in your chainmail seem more numerous than they really are, as if a mind-bending optical illusion had been brought to life?
Doesn't this all sound so much more, well, fantastic, than "+3 longsword?"
There have been magic shops since the early days. The difference is that they had limited inventory. Part of the excitement of visiting a big city was finding them and checking out what they might have for sale. Which, besides consumables and +1 items was usually only a few items.
Amusingly this is EXACTLY like Pathfinder-core. In core Pathfinder the largest cities in the world (a Metropolis) has a purchase limit of 16,000 gp which means that nothing better than a +2 sword, +3 armor or shield, +2 ring/amulet, +4 cloak of resistance, or +4 stat item. More exotic and marvelous things you have to roll randomly and see what's in stock. And it's likely that most places are not going to be a metropolis but something smaller (where it's more difficult to find stuff of great value).
The point is, having a Belt of Giant strength in AD&D meant something, defined the character. Now, it’s EXPECTED you’ll have a +X item in your prime stat by level Y, etc.
Frankly it's overrated. Half my PCs don't even get a +1 weapon until 6+ level (masterwork is enough and 2,000 gp is a lot of money), and +X stat items are too expensive to be feasible at low levels anyway unless you allow odd numbered stat items. There's really very little to spend money on at lower levels that aren't consumables, nommagical, or barely magical (magic armor/shields is probably the most practical for the cost).
9/10 times a 50 gp potion will make a bigger impact on an encounter than a 4000 gp permanent magic item.
True, we had a lot of really cool items. More than todays. BUT, they weren’t Min-maxed to suit. I had a bard (true he was a old school bard, but still) with a Belt of STORM! Giant str for instance, while my high level fighter “only” had Gauntlets of Ogre Power (which added very little).
Yep, those days where your level 1 character could end up with a vorpal sword that was rolled randomly as part of the treasure for some bandits or something. :P
It’s NOT the magic items. It’s the selling of whatever your PC doesn’t need to fill in that Xmas tree to fill that gap. For example, we found (in 3.5) a Battleaxe+3 Frost & cleaving (with a name, background, and so forth). Well, the fighter already a greatsword almost as good and was a specialist. The rogue was a light weapon duelist type. Etc. So, the party wanted to SELL this really “cool” weapon…. Just so that each could add another +1 to one Xmas tree. sad.
I'm not exactly getting what's odd about selling a magic item that by description is nigh useless to the party and would be dead weight. It makes more sense than keeping it around 'cause "ooh, it's shiny magical items".
Remember playing Final Fantasy VII? Remember how awesome it was, how much you liked the characters and the story?
Remember how by the end of the game all the fights felt exactly the same, save for a few rare boss battles? By that point you kept playing just to move the story forward, not because you still had fun with the game.
The reason for that is because at the end, you'd figured out the best combinations. Your characters had been reduced down to walking Materia slots. Their magic items completely eclipsed what the characters themselves were capable of. It didn't even matter who you had in your party, you were going to equip the best combinations and call it good.
In fact, if you didn't equip the best possible combinations of materia, the game seriously punished you for it. Things got much harder, and not in the fun way.
That's what the Christmas Tree effect is. People don't like it because the magic items should not be the things that make you capable. They should be fun and interesting options, not necessities.
Well, I guess it all depends on how readily players can turn loot into items they want.
But even in a bog-standard, by-the-book PFRPG campaign, simple magic items can become more magical with descriptions that bring them to life. A +2 icy burst heartseeker weapon can becomes something more:
As you grasp the hilt and gaze into the midnight depths of the blade's blue-black surface, the cutting edge crusts over with frozen droplets of blood the color of a bruise, misting in the sudden cold. Though your fingers stiffen and palms grow numb with cold, you feel something skittering up and down the haft... something old, and cold, its brooding anger turning to murderous glee as it jerks towards your foes when your strikes would fall short. On landing a devastating blow, a gust of freezing mist surrounds them, and rust-red snow erupts from the gash, twinkling in the torchlight. There is no odor of blood as the ice flies past your helmeted face, but the rapidly warming slush beneath your feet is beginning to reek with an all-too-familiar coppery tang.
That, of course, is easier for weapons with special abilities. What about a simple +3 longsword? Well, how is it improving your strikes? Is its blade impossibly sharp, something like a slip in space itself cutting your foes rather than the otherwise ordinary weapon? Do the gaps in your foe's defenses suddenly become as obvious as bloodstains under blacklight (or other, more thematically-appropriate metaphor)? Is it so light in your hand you could hold it outstretched for days? Does a shimmer in the air, like heat haze, sweep over it when you strike a crushing blow? Does a silent, unseen presence surround and guide you when you wield it? And on and on and on.
And as for the other stuff. How often do people skip the basics? What color is your cloak of resistance? What is it made of? Are there any designs on it? Then go to the other stuff, if necessary. Does it smell of mint (Will), cinnamon (Ref), and cloves (Fort)? When you wear it, are you less easily...
Would all that be much more likely to actually happen if characters had just a few magic items rather than over a dozen?
Depends how much spare time you have.
And a little of this can go a long way. You can reuse a certain descriptor (with minor variations) for weapon/armor/etc enchantments of X school, created by X race/nation/religion/alignment, etc.
Even a minor quirk, like a cloak of resistance with a jeweled clasp that gives off tiny red sparks whenever the wearer is hit by an area effect, can go a long way.
I just wanted to throw out there (as an occasional "magic item hater"), that I love magic items, believe in their purpose to expand character options and strengths, and have no problem with certain items even being "required" for play (cloak of resistance for instance) for most characters to survive long (sources of curing for instance).
That said, I intensely dislike magic items that are overly cheap, or overly powerful.
Remember playing Final Fantasy VII? Remember how awesome it was, how much you liked the characters and the story?
Remember how by the end of the game all the fights felt exactly the same, save for a few rare boss battles? By that point you kept playing just to move the story forward, not because you still had fun with the game.
The reason for that is because at the end, you'd figured out the best combinations. Your characters had been reduced down to walking Materia slots. Their magic items completely eclipsed what the characters themselves were capable of. It didn't even matter who you had in your party, you were going to equip the best combinations and call it good.
In fact, if you didn't equip the best possible combinations of materia, the game seriously punished you for it. Things got much harder, and not in the fun way.
That's what the Christmas Tree effect is. People don't like it because the magic items should not be the things that make you capable. They should be fun and interesting options, not necessities.
FFVII was an example of christmas tree gone bad.
FFVII also required a Dedicated PC of each type
a Spellcaster
a Physical Damage Dealer
a Ranged Combatant
Yuffie was the best damage dealer and the best Ranged Combatant due to a combination of having one of the 3 highest base attack scores out of 9 different characters, an overpowered ranged attack compared to the other 2 ranged combatants, and the highest rate of extra turns in the game.
Cloud could do anything, and was the 3rd best mage next to Aeris and Cait Sith. with Cloud as a spellcaster and Yuffie as a ranged physical attacker, your third person could be whomever you wished.
Yuffie was one of the few characters whom could accomplish multiple rolls.
I just wanted to throw out there (as an occasional "magic item hater"), that I love magic items, believe in their purpose to expand character options and strengths, and have no problem with certain items even being "required" for play (cloak of resistance for instance) for most characters to survive long (sources of curing for instance).
That said, I intensely dislike magic items that are overly cheap, or overly powerful.
By cheap, do you mean underpriced to the point of disposability, or simply exploitative of mechanics?
Remember playing Final Fantasy VII? Remember how awesome it was, how much you liked the characters and the story?
Remember how by the end of the game all the fights felt exactly the same, save for a few rare boss battles? By that point you kept playing just to move the story forward, not because you still had fun with the game.
Actually for the most part I've found FFVII's system to be the most fun out of the final fantasy games I've played (barring FFT and competing with FFV). Unlike in previous installments characters are customizable through the materia system rather than having hardwired abilities. This allows you to have a party that's built up of different characters. Unlike in Final Fantasy VI where characters with less useful abilities were often left out of groups (Realm's ability doesn't work on any major enemies for example).
I found the materia system far more appealing than Junction system in FFVIII or the Weapon Skill system from FFIX. The FFX system was less customizable than previous iterations of the games.
The reason for that is because at the end, you'd figured out the best combinations. Your characters had been reduced down to walking Materia slots. Their magic items completely eclipsed what the characters themselves were capable of.
Which is true in virtually every final fantasy. FFV is going to require you to use the best gear and special powers of that gear to beat certain enemies. For example, one of the best tactics for defeating the optional dragon boss in the final dungeon of FFV is to have a thief steal the item from the boss that allows your characters to use the Jump command, then reset the fight using a different ability and steal it again, and equip said item to every party member and have them spam Jump against him constantly.
In Final Fantasy VI? Gem Box + Economizer = Double Castings at 1 MP each. Genji Gauntlet + Offering? How about the Paladin shield? How about stacking miss % until your characters cannot be struck with single-target attacks?
It didn't even matter who you had in your party, you were going to equip the best combinations and call it good.
Which again means that you can bring whomever you want to. You like Cid? Bring him, since even if you don't need another martial you can adjust his loadout or let him dabble in some cure / buff spells and make him a "cleric" of sorts (beating face and occasionally casting). Decide you like Cait Sith and want to pound face with that big moogle golem? You can do that. Do you like Yuffie's shenanigans but don't like throwing away (literally, with the Throw command) your precious loot on common fights? Then don't, make her a thieving deathblow ninja instead.
In fact, if you didn't equip the best possible combinations of materia, the game seriously punished you for it. Things got much harder, and not in the fun way.
Ironically FFVII is often considered one of the easier Final Fantasies with the only really hard bosses being exceptionally major ones or more likely the optional bosses added in the American and International releases (Ruby & Emerald Weapon).
That's what the Christmas Tree effect is. People don't like it because the magic items should not be the things that make you capable. They should be fun and interesting options, not necessities.
Except for the fact that the entire game is more than beatable without the best materia combinations. In fact it's beatable without all manner of things you can do in the game. You don't need to raise chocobos, use summon monsters, or even use mastered materia, or ultima, etc.
There's a plethora of challenges to make the game harder because of how little it actually does punish you throughout most of the game. Challenges like "only use initial equips", "don't use cure spells", "no reload", "use only X type of materia (magic or command for example)", "low level challenge", "speed challenge", "level 1 limits only", "no limit breaks", etc.
FFVII was an example of christmas tree gone bad.
Yeah, if you ignore every other final fantasy that actually put more emphasis on needing good gear and acquiring items (magicite) to function. Or if you ignore pretty much everything that is FFVII and the Christmas Tree Effect.
FFVII also required a Dedicated PC of each type
a Spellcaster
a Physical Damage Dealer
a Ranged Combatant
This is false. In fact my first playthrough the idea of a dedicated character never entered my mind. I wasn't even very good at the game and threw my materia on haphazardly. Heck, when I was a little kid playing final fantasy VII, it wasn't until the end of the game that I actually started paying attention to materia growth, and I beat the game just fine.
In fact, most of my characters had a mixture of command, summon, magic, and support materia on them. I liked command materia because stuff like mug, deathblow, and so forth was awesome. Staples were there of course (like the elemental spells), and I enjoyed some of the spells like haste and reflect so those usually made it in there somewhere. Summons were cool so most characters had at least one.
Most of my melee combatants had the Long Range materia on them (except Barret, Vincent, or Yuffie who usually have naturally long range weapons) and would sit everyone in the back row anyway.
I don't think there are enemies in FFVII that are immune to magic (I can't think of any, though I think Ruby Weapon was highly resistant to most magics) so I really don't think you need a physical damage dealer either (honestly if you're going the spellcasting route you should have plenty of MP anyway, and with spells like Magic Hammer which drains 100 mp from an enemy and gives it to you, it's not difficult to keep your casting up 24/7).
Contrast, you can also beat the entire game without casting a single spell ever if you want to. Load all your characters down with command materias, independent materia (Spd+, Hp+, Def+, Long Range, etc), sell all your magic materia and buy some decent accessories (things that ward against certain status ailments like Confusion), and use items for whatever else you need (poisoned? Antidote! Frogged? Maiden's kiss! Pale Horse!? ... Remedy!).
FFVII is the OPPOSITE of the phenomena of needing X item to contribute. In fact, one of the reasons the game is so great is because of how you don't have to do the same thing.
Yuffie was the best damage dealer and the best Ranged Combatant due to a combination of having one of the 3 highest base attack scores out of 9 different characters, an overpowered ranged attack compared to the other 2 ranged combatants, and the highest rate of extra turns in the game.
Cloud could do anything, and was the 3rd best mage next to Aeris and Cait Sith. with Cloud as a spellcaster and Yuffie as a ranged physical attacker, your third person could be whomever you wished.
Yuffie was one of the few characters whom could accomplish multiple rolls.
Every character in FFVII can fill in the same roles. In fact, every character can reach 255 in their statistics, and materia you equip makes adjustments t their statistics (for example, if you equip a common magic materia such as Bolt, it will decrease Strength and HP slightly and increase Magic and MP slightly).
Some characters are naturally slanted towards a certain role but nothing in that game is permanent like that. If you want Barret to don his black mage's cap and start unleashing the wrath of the gods on the poor unsuspecting monsters. >.>
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also we should get something strait. The "Christmas Tree Effect" is not the "must have magic items to function". The joke about the christmas tree is that if someone casts detect magic on you then you'd look like a Christmas Tree (all of your gear would be glowing). "Christmas Tree" is a complaint against the quantity of magic items in D&D/Pathfinder.
Which often gets jumbled with the idea that you must have X magic item to function. This is more akin to needing to be X height to ride on the ride. This was a phenomenon that was much worse back in the day where not having a +X weapons means you literally could not damage an enemy. No +1 weapon? Then you can't hurt werewolves, even with max strength and being level 30.
The idea that you NEED X item in Pathfinder is mostly misplaced. There are a few of them that I really like, but the idea that you're useless without the same +X sword, armor, shield, cloak, stats is grossly exaggerated.
In fact, if you have spellcasters in your party with enough pearls of power you can actually ignore most common magic items completely. Spells like Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Bull's Strength, and so forth are all 3rd level or lower. Consumables can take care of the majority of it.
Also we should get something strait. The "Christmas Tree Effect" is not the "must have magic items to function". The joke about the christmas tree is that if someone casts detect magic on you then you'd look like a Christmas Tree (all of your gear would be glowing). "Christmas Tree" is a complaint against the quantity of magic items in D&D/Pathfinder.
Which often gets jumbled with the idea that you must have X magic item to function. This is more akin to needing to be X height to ride on the ride. This was a phenomenon that was much worse back in the day where not having a +X weapons means you literally could not damage an enemy. No +1 weapon? Then you can't hurt werewolves, even with max strength and being level 30.
The idea that you NEED X item in Pathfinder is mostly misplaced. There are a few of them that I really like, but the idea that you're useless without the same +X sword, armor, shield, cloak, stats is grossly exaggerated.
Worse only in the +x weapon to damage case.
Weapons & Armor were common back in the day. I don't think I ever saw a Cloak of Resistance. Did they even exist pre-3.0? Stat-boosters were rare, other than Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Belts of Giant Strength which were fairly common.
None of it was nearly as expected as is it is now.
Of course, stats not adding to Saving Throws or Save DCs, made those stats less important. And Saves got better without cloaks.
That might just be personal experience. We weren't particularly focused on optimization. But it also matched with the loot commonly found, the stuff classes NPCs used against us and the sample characters in modules.
Back in the day cloaks of protection and rings of protection both gave bonuses to AC AND Saves. They were split in 3.x.
Also we should get something strait. The "Christmas Tree Effect" is not the "must have magic items to function". The joke about the christmas tree is that if someone casts detect magic on you then you'd look like a Christmas Tree (all of your gear would be glowing). "Christmas Tree" is a complaint against the quantity of magic items in D&D/Pathfinder.
Which often gets jumbled with the idea that you must have X magic item to function. This is more akin to needing to be X height to ride on the ride. This was a phenomenon that was much worse back in the day where not having a +X weapons means you literally could not damage an enemy. No +1 weapon? Then you can't hurt werewolves, even with max strength and being level 30.
All true!
The idea that you NEED X item in Pathfinder is mostly misplaced. There are a few of them that I really like, but the idea that you're useless without the same +X sword, armor, shield, cloak, stats is grossly exaggerated.
Rather than "mostly misplaced" I'd say, "dependent on your game". In an entirely home brew campaign, the only magic you need is whatever your GM gauges the difficulty for. In a published campaign, the authors have presumably gauged the difficulty for some amount of gear. Those needs are, as you say, frequently exaggerated.
I ran a campaign a few years ago in a homebrew setting that was very "dark ages" rather than the typical "high fantasy".
This is the most elegant system I was able to come up with.
...
- Magic items are rare.
Most magic items are objects of legend, tied to the stories of heroes, villains, kings, and kingdoms. With the exception of potions and certain other consumables, they are never sold on the open market.- Treasure is divided into two categories:
Loot - Gold, silver, jewels, commodities, mundane objects, etc. The characters can do whatever they want with this wealth, buy mundane equipment, live a life of luxury, pay bribes, acquire property. . .
Magic Allotment - Every player gets a budget equal to their expected wealth by level. This budget can be spent on improving or creating magical gear as they choose. This operates as a metagame construct, just like experience points, leveling up, and increasing class abilities.- Few is better than many.
There is no penalty for stacking abilities on a single magic item. Instead, there is a 20% discount on
I love this! One of my main goals is not to get in the way of the PCs having fun and whatever plots and plans they come up with, so if a PC wants to be some sort of trade mogul, black marketeer or the group wants to be wealthy land magnates this would be a great way of not penalizing them. I know there are some newer other options in UC, which I am still processing, that allow some more flexibility in what PCs can reach out and control, but your method seems like it could be popped right onto a campaign fairly easily and do a great job at expanding options for the PCs.
I ran a campaign a few years ago in a homebrew setting that was very "dark ages" rather than the typical "high fantasy"...I love this!
Thanks:)
Popping it right into a campaign was the idea. By not changing many rules, I had less risk of messing up some aspect of the game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The funny thing is that I'm actually very much pro-magic items. I'm perfectly fine with the fact there's generally lots of minor trinkets about in the economy of your typical fantasy world (even in Lord of the Rings magic rings were so common that Gandalf didn't even consider that Frodo's could be something special).
But it also irks me a little when I see notice people saying that you need X to be effective, or that you're not doing it right if you don't have a +1 weapon by 4th level. Man, most of my characters are wielding masterwork weapons until 6th and sometimes 8th, just using different weapon materials to pierce DR and getting a buff (or applying an oil) if I need a magic weapon to hit something.
And it irks me still when people talk about buying any magic item you want with no problems when you by RAW cannot buy a magic item you want in excess of 16,000 gp from the largest cities in the world (assuming Core magic item availability rules on the standard expected dial). Even stuff below that has a 75% chance of being available (that means there's probably only about 3 of such items available in the entire community, not shop, community, which means that if you want a +1 flaming sword, there may only be about 2-3 of such swords for sale in the entire metropolis on average).
Just today I was talking to a fellow I play D&D with on the weekends. I'm fairly new to their group relatively speaking, but he was asking for advice recently on what to do with his 15th level character for an upcoming epic-level game (a conversion of the Hordes of the Underdark campaign from Neverwinter Nights) that someone was running. He was having trouble figuring out how to get all the magic items he "needed".
But his priorities were killing his wealth. He had invested in a PAIR of +7 equivalent weapons (a par of +5 keen furious weapons) but had like a +1 ring of protection, etc. I just kind of shook my head and tried to explain to him that by being a martial (which he was) he should have his to-hit/damage taken care of more or less by merely being a martial and he should probably consider tossing a little more into defense and problem solving. >.>
I like magic items but there are a lot of misconceptions about them I think.
|
|
My group is now utilizing a system I developed to incorporate bonuses into character advancement since the Pathfinder system is mechanically designed on "must-have" equipment such as stat-boosting headbands or belts and cloaks of resistance. One of the most exciting aspects of AD&D was finding a magical item, and it should always be a source of excitement and wonder. Players should not have to march through a proscribed arsenal of must-have equipment in order to have success with the game. Neither should they be disinterested when magic items are found.
So, the question becomes: how can we fix a system dependent on magic item upgrades, without having to overhaul the entire system?
I have expanded on the work of others on these forums as to "fixed training enhancements," which incorporate "must-have" increases into a charcter's advancement and removes from the game "plus" items. My system takes into account the "wealth-by-level" balance and insures that when players get magical items, they will have more meaning and purpose, but party power levels are preserved against gradually escalating foe strength. Throwaway items, such as the 15th Ring of Protection +1 found during a session, cease to exist, but it frees up a slot for more creative items in the slot.
FIXED TRAINING BONUSES
All items with a "plus" are removed from the game, except items that modify skills only. Magical weapons/armor exist but instead of "plusses" convey a property (such as flaming). Players, starting at 3rd level, receive training points to spend on a list of non-magical, permanent fixed abilities. Players may accumulate points but can only invest them when attaining a level, meeting any pre-requisites, and purchasing any lower-tier abilities first.
MECHANICS
Training enhancements are not magical. They do not make a weapon magical nor allow players to overcome damage reduction. However, they do not stack with magical effects, so that a +2 training enhancement to strength does not stack with Bull's Strength. Crafting is subsequently cheaper as the +1 prerequisite is removed, but items are more vulnerable to damage.
MECHANICS - WEALTH BY LEVEL
The value of the boost is taken from existing gear and appointed a cost at a ration of 1,000gp value to 1 point. This is taken from a 75% principle, drawn from the Wealth by Level tables in which it is presumed 25% of wealth goes to offensive items, 25% to defense, and 25% to miscellaneous items such as stat boosters. I settle in the middle at 50% to accomodate all classes. The below table gives players 50% WBL in training abilities, with pre-requisites built-in to assume that no more than 25% of a character's wealth is spent on a single item, preserving game balance so that certain bonuses would not be obtainable until a certain level. All point costs must include the abilities before it (ladder advancement), so that the entire Weapon Training line, if taken to +5, would convert to 50,000gp value (or 50 points).
GM's should adjust game wealth by 50%. If using a pre-fab adventure, the simplest conversion is to assume all bonus-granting items are incorporated into the creature's stat lines as training bonuses. The "wealth boost" at the end is a must-have as to this sytem. Certain classes are more gear (ability) oriented than others.
Level Training Points Gained
3 -- 1
4 -- 2
5 -- 2
6 -- 3
7 -- 4
8-- 4
9-- 7
10-- 8
11-- 10
12-- 13
13-- 16
14-- 22
15-- 28
16-- 37
17-- 48
18-- 60
19-- 77
20-- 98
Weapon Training (2): The character receives a +1 fixed enhancement bonus to attacks and damage with a class of weapons (select from Fighter class), unarmed attacks, or natural weapons (must select one type of attack, such as claw or bite). Must be at least level 4.
Increase bonus to +2: (6), must be at least level 7.
Increase bonus to +3: (10), must be at least level 10.
Increase bonus to +4: (14), must be at least level 13.
Increase bonus to +5: (18), must be at least level 15.
Defensive Training (1): The character receives a +1 fixed enhancement bonus to the effective armor bonus of any one type of armor, shield, or bracers worn, or the character receives a fixed +1 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.
Increase bonus to +2: (3), must be at least level 6.
Increase bonus to +3: (5), must be at least level 9.
Increase bonus to +4: (7), must be at least level 11.
Increase bonus to +5: (9), must be at least level 13.
Protection Training (2): The character receives a +1 fixed deflection bonus to AC, or a +1 fixed natural armor bonus to AC. Must be at least level 4.
Increase bonus to +2: (6), must be at least level 7.
Increase bonus to +3: (10), must be at least level 10.
Increase bonus to +4: (14), must be at least level 13.
Increase bonus to +5: (18), must be at least level 15.
Ability Score Improvement: Note: players cannot use the Double Focus or Full Package improvements to mix and match mental and physical increases. The Double and Full must be all mental or all physical attributes.
Singular Focus: select a mental (Int, Wis, Cha) or physical (Str, Dex, Con) attribute to apply a +2 fixed enhancement bonus. Costs (4) and must be at least level 6.
Improve the attribute to +4 (12). Must be at least level 11.
Improve the attribute to +6 (20). Must be at least level 14.
Double Focus (must have Singular Focus): increases a second mental or physical ability score beyond the Singular Focus. The second score increased can never be higher than the Singular Focus attribute.
Increase secondary attribute to +2: (6). Must be at least level 9.
Increase secondary attribute to +4: (18). Must be at least level 14.
Increase secondary attribute to +6: (30). Must be at least level 17.
Full Package (must have Singular and Double Focus): increases a third mental or physical attribute score beyond the Singular and Double Focus. The third score increased can never be higher than the Singular or Double Focus attribute.
Increase third attribute to +2: (6). Must be at least level 11.
Increase third attribute to +4: (18). Must be at least level 16.
Increase third attribute to +6: (30). Must be at least level 19.
Wealth Boost: The player comes into unexpected wealth and may exchange 1 training point for 1,000gp.
@Touc : I like your idea actually. I have the same idea of separating WBL and Magic items.
My idea is similar to yours :
You have "max bond points" equal to WBL/1000. Each magic item have a bound value equal to its "CRB price"/1000. Magic items now have a new price depending on its rarity, and on the city you're in, and not depending on a catalog style of Magic items market.
You can't have more magic items linked to yourself than your "Max bond points".
Moreover, I have the intention to allow some classes to be able to use permanent "Max Bond points" to gain permanent bonuses, or use those points to fuel durable/permanent spells.
Finally, weapons and armors worn by characters during whole adventures will improve by themselves, costing more bond points, but being better magic items (so, you can do a whole campaign from lvl 1 to lvl 20 and have the same sword given by your grandfather).
I actually had an idea for magical weapons. Behold:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pw50?Magical-Items-Magical-YOU#1
I like Martials.
I don't like Magic.
So how do my Martials compete with Magic?
By using Magic, of course.
You can see why someone like myself would dislike this, I hope.
Try playing game with no magic items. You'd think the casters would powerful and out shine the martial classes. I found in running a game like that opposite was true. The Martial Characters did much better.
When I ran a no magic item game it was no magic items except for rare and difficult to find artifacts. Basically the players would even see a magic item till much higher level. I had place of power like a spring water pool with healing properties that go inert if taken from the pool. Basically people could heal in the pool and move on. Some place were permanent long term other temporary or limted. To make the CR system work I applied a -2 APL and used 25 pt buy.
What I found was the martial classes thrived in this type of game. Where you'd think casters would dominate it just didn't happen. They weren't weak at all but more balanced.
Over all it works quite well.
|
Let me preface that I did not read the entire thread. However I don't hate magic items. I believe that magic items should enhance a characters legacy. They should be earned in adventuring not bought at store.
I hate the idea of magic shops, ok maybe 1 or 2 in the world. Seriously I just picture PC going into store.
PC "Excuse me good sir, would you have any wands of CLW. We are going on a particulary dangerous quest and I'm going to need at least 4 with 25 charges each.
Clerk "They are on aisle 8,it's your lucky day, we are having an independence day sale everythings 25% off"
I'll leave the amount of magic and power up to individual DM's. Whatever you feel comfortable with, However, If you are a player don't throw a tizzy if another DM edits your character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*dives to the bottom of the thread*
I don't hate magic items. I hate how d20 does magic items, making them absolutely necessary to contend at your CR level (see 'Wealth By Level'). This also makes magic items generally boring, because they're so commonplace. Every PC is head to toe in them.
4e had a great thing, called Inherent Bonuses. It accounted for the 'math of the system' as you leveled up, meaning you could easily do an entire game without handing out a single magic item and not have to make any adjustments. Heck, you could run a game with no magic at ALL (classes included) and it would work fine.
I think even a 'lowly' +1 magic sword should be special and rare. A potion or wand of curing should be an emergency backup in a dire situation, not something you casually use after every fight. If a PC finds a magic item, especially a non-consumable, it should be an EVENT, noteworthy in the story of that character's life. Don't even get me started on vendor trash ...
Why should a +1 Sword magic be rare? They are exceedingly easy to make and more durable then non-magic swords. Once one is created it will likely endure for quite some time. The only possible way a +1 Sword could be considered an "EVENT" is if your world has only an extremely small number of 5th or higher Level NPCs spellcasters. In which case your world is pretty far removed from the default setting and rules that Pathfinder uses. You really need to calibrate your expectations about a world were magic exists methinks, or stick to running P6 were finding a +1 Magic Sword would be an EVENT.
|
|
My group is currently playing (testing) home-brewed inherent bonuses, which accounts for Pathfinder Wealth by Level and gives players the option to integrate bonuses into their leveling, freeing up magic item slots for magic that stands out. So far it's working, but then again it's very very early. I'm a big believer in magic items being utility (allowing players to approach challenges in ways beyond their class abilities) and not having certain items be required (e.g. the Ring of Protection, Cloak of Resistance, ability-boosting headband/belt, and so on).
I've also made effort to ensure the items found thus far are pretty special, drawing largely from 3rd editions magic item compendium to inject some fresh items. Successful identification gives a latent glimpse of the item's crafting.
For example, the first magic weapon found:
When the magic item rules are enforced the system works beautifully. However, I find most people don't want to muddle with it. Even when I GM I find one of the last things I prep for a city is the magic item rolls even though I do enforce the price limit rules. I play under one guy who describes himself as "not an items GM" and is very flexible with it or sometimes very harsh depending on mood which makes for interesting sessions when he feels like being obstinate.
Why should a +1 Sword magic be rare? They are exceedingly easy to make
They shouldn't be, is the point I'm trying to make (or at least that should be an option).
Has anyone considered just redefining the pluses for weapons and armor to be "not magic?" With Master Craftsman any mundane crafter can make them anyway. Why not rearrange things a bit and just make such basic bonuses entirely mundane? A +2 sword is then a very nice sword made out of good steel and carefully tempered to give an excellent and durable edge. It's worth quite a bit because of the time and skill needed to make it, but it doesn't glow when you cast detect magic. (You would have to come up with some explanation for why it costs more to make a +3 sword flaming than a +2 sword, or redo the math for actual magic properties.)
Edit: Then again, I don't really like the sharp distinction between "magic" and "mundane" anyway.
Has anyone considered just redefining the pluses for weapons and armor to be "not magic?" With Master Craftsman any mundane crafter can make them anyway. Why not rearrange things a bit and just make such basic bonuses entirely mundane? A +2 sword is then a very nice sword made out of good steel and carefully tempered to give an excellent and durable edge. It's worth quite a bit because of the time and skill needed to make it, but it doesn't glow when you cast detect magic. (You would have to come up with some explanation for why it costs more to make a +3 sword flaming than a +2 sword, or redo the math for actual magic properties.)
Edit: Then again, I don't really like the sharp distinction between "magic" and "mundane" anyway.
Apprentices Masterpiece; +1 Hit/Damage (2,300)
Journeyman's Masterpiece +2 Hit/Damage (8,300)
Master's Masterpiece +3 Hit/Damage (18,300)
Artisan's Masterpiece +4 Hit/Damage (32,300)
Grandmaster's Masterpiece +5 Hit/Damage (50,300)
Legendary Grandmaster's Masterpiece +6 Hit/Damage ( 72,300)
Paragon's Masterpiece +7 hit/damage (98,300)
Grand Paragon's Masterpiece +8 Hit/Damage ( 128,300)
Divine Heroe's Masterpiece +9 Hit/Damage (162,300)
Epic Divine Heroe's Masterpiece +10 Hit/Damage (200,300)
Least Demigod's Masterpiece +11 Hit/Damage (242,300)
Lesser Demigod's Masterpiece +12 Hit/Damage (288,300)
Demigod's Masterpiece +13 Hit/Damge (338,300)
Greater Demigod's Masterpiece +14 Hit/Damage (392,300)
Superior Demigod's Masterpiece +15 Hit/Damage ( 450,300)
Least Deity's Masterpiece +16 hit/damage (512.300)
Lesser Deity's Masterpiece +17 Hit/Damage (578,300)
Deity's Masterpiece +18 Hit/Damage (648,300)
Greater Deity's Masterpiece +19 Hit/Damage (722,300)
Supreme Deity's Masterpiece Weapon +20 Hit/Damage (800,300)
Halve these prices for armor and shields and apply them to AC instead of Hit Damage
Halve and Subtract 150 (bonus squared x1000) for attribute boosters or cloaks of resistance
subtract from these 300 when factoring natural armor or deflection items
the bonuses are balanced by the absurd prices. but note how impractical it is for a 20th level character to pick up even a single +20 weapon. bonuses over +10 should generally require quests. unless you are starting epic level.
Why should a +1 Sword magic be rare? They are exceedingly easy to makeThey shouldn't be, is the point I'm trying to make (or at least that should be an option).
+1 magic swords are nothing special, hell, a +5 sword should be a lot more common than a +1 flaming frost shocking corrosive sword.