Theomniadept's page

Problems I have with the "explanations" proposed thus far:

1. Stop trying to compare it to real life. It's a nice basis for...level 1. And not one level further.

If you want to bring in exact real life duplicates, will someone explain exactly how the Alchemist can mix a volatile reaction safely, throw it, have it explode on impact, never suffer from an accidental hand detonation, and also do this without incurring any material costs? Where are these "cheap enough to be everywhere" material components?

2. Sure, the master craftsman -could- take two years for a suit of armor. Problem? Magic does it better. There's literally no reason for someone to train in smithing armor or weapons if a mage can do it infinitely faster.

Also, someone said making armor is the work of an entire workshop? Yeah, in real life. Aid Another adds +2 to the check and you only get one Aid Another bonus. The system doesn't allow for a large amount of people to just take measurements and craft separate pieces of the armor, liek 1 guy making the pauldrons, 1 making greaves, and the master making the chestpiece.

Pathfinder was supposed to balance 3.5 and allow players to actually be good at what they invest the feats and skill points into. I do have to ask; how do we bring these issues to the game devs? I mean they're working on books that add a bunch to their world but the end result? Who cares when your players want 1 thing and you have to houserule it on the spot and even then how good is the houserule going to be?

Magic items are nice in this aspect; I like the idea of magical tools that only function in the hands of a skilled crafter. But these items just don't make it worth it to invest more ranks. 6 ranks in every craft, use those Amazing Tools, make everything in days.

Seriously, trivializing Craft to the minute details was what 3.5 did and that's why Craft and Profession in 3.5 were as useless as Use Rope and Open Lock.

Mark Hoover, I realize you want to have the PCs do a bunch of RP stuff. Problem? Yes. None of that is in the rules. At all. Your idea of a Forge Master with a hundred apprentices? Not possible when one item requires a certain amount to be made in crafting and you can add exactly 1 Aid Another.

The rules just don't differentiate between crafting on the road and crafting in a dedicated situation. Technically speaking the rules only say you need Artisan's Tools, and one set of these tools can apparently make armor, weapons, bows, or alchemical items. There needs to be waaaaaay more detail than what is given.

1. Sorry for double post, but I misspelled Benchack

2. Does that set of crafting tools mean it isn't worth it to put more than 6 ranks into a craft? I mean 6 ranks + 3 for class skill + 4 for tools + 2 aid another + 4 for INT score, not to mention a cheap +2 headband of Intellect keyed to give one craft max ranks means you auto-succeed the check.

Yeah, but third party to me has a lot of problems; namely, that Paizo themselves does not acknowledge the problems in their system.

Renchak, that item is -amazing-. Plain and simple. I have never seen that item before; it actually makes the skill useable! This is the exact same feeling that I got from learning about the Trapmaker's Sack (which made that skill actually useful). I will remember this for my characters in the future!

I actually like that idea. Other skills have bonuses granted from having certain amounts of ranks in them, so why not Craft?

Like, 5 ranks in craft allows crafting in silver pieces per day instead of per week, 10 ranks for gold pieces per week, 15 ranks for gold pieces per day?

So why doesn't the hypothetical NPC Mastercraftsman have Masterwork tools or apprentices/journeymen/other assistants helping him?

Just forgot to add them, but even then that's only a +4 to a skill that would reduce the overall time by a week or two.

I realize Fabricate is just shenanigans all over the place but there really should be some benefit to having invested into such skills.

IT doesn't fix all problems, but one possible solution is to just ignore the price of the special materials when determining crafting time. A suit of mithral full plate or adamantine full plate would take the same amount of time to craft as a suit of steel full plate.

If the material is harder then normal to work (adamantine, with twice the hardness of steel, may be considered hard to work) could add a fixed amount of time. Maybe +2 weeks to the crafting time.

And if an Expert can get to 10th level, then so can a wizard. And no one will hire an expert to spend years to craft a single suit of armor when the wizard can do it within a day with a single casting of Fabricate.

"You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."

Still requires craft investment, and magic in this way just puts everything out of business (although I admit every system with magic make sin OP).

If a player wants to specialize in something it should benefit them in some way, and give them something unique. End of story, that is tabletop game rule #1.

There should be feats or an archetype or two that relate specifically to crossbows since they are underpowered. Nobody should be arguing to keep options away from the players.

Even then there should be some way to expedite the crafting.

You can increase the DC by 5 to double the amount you make of a magic item and have a Valet archetype familiar cut the time required in half to craft magic items at 4x speed.

And yet magic just can't do anything whatsoever to help make mundane items.

Truth be told magic items are necessary. I have no clue why so many noob DMs jump to conclusions that Magic Items just break the game. They clearly don't, and besides the fact, in low money settings spellcasters unfairly dominate the game.

So about those inherent abilities? Yeah, that doesn't do anything. Fighter with mundane equipment vs. Wizard. Oh, you no have Cloak of Resistance but I can cast Fox's Cunning? Phantasmal Killer GG (and that's an underpowered spell).

3.5 Vow of Poverty was underpowered and there is clearly a thread about that. At every level you have less than what you could afford with average wealth per level recommendations. I found VoP to be a good measure of how well a DM functioned with money. If they can't function with players having magic items and/or VoP on anything makes you more powerful than you currently are, they're doing it wrong.

But Vow of Poverty in Pathfinder? That's broken stuff. Gestalt Wizard/Synthesist can't even compare.

Crafting items seriously just isn't a viable option for the players. I thought Pathfinder would make it actually viable when taking it in from 3.5 but let's face it crafting still takes forever.

First of all, in any realistic sense the players would probably need to craft their own equipment given their class. Example: The quintessential Adamantine Full Plate Armor. Unless you're dexterity based or a spellcaster, this is the armor the character in question would eventually wear.

Except that the crafting rules require you to craft 1500 gp worth of the armor, with 9000 gp worth of the masterwork component (adamantine). Your crappy littLe craft check is in silver pieces. Per week.

Now to buy this from an NPC? Ignoring the fact that full plate must be made to a certain person, this is way too expensive to make in any sensible time. Unless your NPCs just live in the realm of DM fiat (a terrible tool), the average Expert at level 10 would have a craft check of:
10 ranks
3 from trained class skill
3 from skill focus (armorsmithing)
2 from Master Craftsman (armorsmithing)
4 from Intelligence of 18 (generous for an NPC)
totalling 22.

On a take-10 of 32, those DCs are easily boostable by 10 as per the "fast craft" rule (hah fast crafting), meaning that going off the DC 30 adamantine this expert crafts 960 silver, or 96 gp per week.

WOW. That means it will take him 93 weeks just to make the adamantine component. That's over two years to make a suit for one person.

This is clearly just an NPC, right? Now let's take a maximized character. I had this Dwarven Defender character I liked to play who crafted his own armor (had a large backstory based around dwarven shenanigans relating to this). So I looked at how I could max the crap out of this. Ready?
3 from trained class skill
3 from skill focus (armorsmithing)
2 from Master Craftsman (armorsmithing)
2 for the dwarven alternate trait relating to crafting with metal
2 for a reasonable Aid Another every day assuming there are forge hands and apprentices helping
10 for having a Synaptic Mask with a +10 Shard in it corresponding to Craft (armorsmithing) [Only available if Psionics Unleashed is allowed]
2 for having masterwork tools
10 ranks assuming a level 10 character.

Now, this characters armor had AAAAALLLL the stuff. All 3 optional modifications making the full plate part cost 4050 and the adamantine part cost 9000.

On a take 10 check of 44 (WOW), that's crafting:
44 x 39 = 171.6 gp per week, 23.6 (rounded to 24) weeks for mundane part
44 x 40 = 176 gp per week, 51.1 (rounded to 52) weeks for adamantine

Yikes. That's 66 weeks for the armor. No adventuring party is just going to take over a year off. This needs changing.

Not convinced? Okay, so your archer wants a composite bow. There's a freaking enchantment that mitigates the strength modifer problem. For a measly 1000 gold (500 for those with someone in the party with Craft Arms and Armor) you just need to make a Masterwork Composite longbow without the strength modifier. That's 300 for the masterwork component, 100 for the bow itself. A simple character at 5th level can have a craft of 10, enough to make the take-10 DC 20 masterwork check.
That's 20 x 20 = 40 gold per week, 8 weeks for masterwork
20 x 15 = 30 gold per week, 4 weeks for the composite bow

This is with only Aid Another and 5 ranks in a class skill. Minimal investment but it still takes 12 weeks!

What sickens me the most?

"You can craft any early firearm for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft advanced firearms for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm. Crafting a firearm in this way takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of the firearm’s price (minimum 1 day)."

Guns are made like magic items. Seriously? In a few days one guy can go through the complicated process of treating metal, forging it into a perfect cylinder, cutting a wooden stock, treating the stock, and making intricate mechanisms for firing.

Rule number 1 of any tabletop game: if a player wants to specialize in something it should bring benefit. This is some 3.5 garbage here. It actually discourages players from doing this just through time cost.

Now I know the converse problem: if a player can craft something in a short amount of time he can make a lot of money, right? Crafting at 1/3 and selling at 1/2. I've done the math and it roughly works out to where selling something you craft repeatedly and simply using Craft as a Profession check (which it does say can be done) makes about the same amount of money, give or take depending on your ranks, what you can craft, the most optimal way to use time, etc.

Paizo, please. Gunslingers tick me off to no end and then you give them the ability to work for a couple days and come out with a revolutionary double barreled gun. Archers take weeks to carve wood. Armorsmiths can't even risk taking a holiday else it interrupts their crafting. This system clearly needs a revision.

I mean seriously, even with outside sourcebooks it STILL takes over a year to make adamantine armor on a craft-optimized character.

Theomniadept wrote:

The Wizard can do the following.

Round 1: Summon.
Round 2: Summon.
Round 3: Summon.
Repeat. Summoners can only have ONE Summon Monster spell active at any point in time.

This is simply incorrect. Under the summon monster SLA:

A summoner cannot have more than one summon monster or gate spell active [b wrote:

in this way[/b] at one time.

(my bolding)

I already pointed that out: to continue summoning the horde you require spell known slots to be taken up, and summoning in that way isn't keyed to the class so it goes by the less powerful round per level duration and round casting.

_What_? The eidolon blows animal companions out of the water! Most animal companions that are decent in melee get trumfed by something as simple as flight!

No, don't compare it to the animal companion. We're looking at simple Caster vs. Melee here. Assuming the best scenario, the Summoner can summon a creature, then summon his eidolon (that syntax in that order is technically legal so for a few rounds you have Eidolon + 1 summon). The summon can be melee or have SLAs that are desirable, true. However, the Druid can Wild Shape into things like Arsinoitherium fairly early. Sure they got a nerf from 3.5 that was necessary but they still have as many options, whether they want to become something poisonous, brutish, or small and stealthy. Plus, Animal Companions aren't trumped by flight. They can be trained to accept a 4th level Druid spell known as Air Walk, so flight's not stopping a fleshraker facemunch.

Comparing Eidolon to Animal straight makes the Eidolon seem more powerful when it ignores the beefy capabilities the Druid himself has with Wild Shape. Essentially, Animal Companion is comparable to Summon Monster (slightly better due to fact that the Animal gains stuff as the druid levels while summons don't) and Wild Shape is less beefy but more versatile than the Eidolon (and serves the same purpose Synthesist Eidolon serves), but the Druid still has better casting. Sure, it costs more for a Wizard to affect his spells that Summoner get searlier; doesn't excuse the fact that Wizards and Clerics and Druids get insanely high power spells Summoners do not.

Personally, Summoner is one of the most creative and original classes I've seen, and is my personal favorite. I mean it's a class that lets you decide practically everything about it and has a lot of build options, each as viable as the rest.

But as for broken? No, Summoner is not broken. This is coming from 3.5, obviously, where there was broken (Frenzied Berserker for over 200 damage a round) and invincible (there were multiple ways to permanently either become invincible or get an infinite number of actions in a round).

First of all, Summoners and Eidolons cannot do ranged combat. REMEMBER THIS. Focused Shot allowed them to not only ride on a mount and full-attack but also only take DR into account once. Neither summoners nor Eidolons have the feats available to use bows effectively; the necessary requirements are just too much (thus why fighters and rangers get those feats as extra feats to allow them to actually USE bows). So they MUST get into melee, incurring danger. Additionally, due to the lack of feats, Summoners and Eidolons cannot become critmonkeys like a fighter.

Summoners have to be nearby or the Eidolon loses 75% of its life (barring an Unfetter spell which is a little more preparation). Next weakness. The Wizard can do the following.
Round 1: Summon.
Round 2: Summon.
Round 3: Summon.
Repeat. Summoners can only have ONE Summon Monster spell active at any point in time. This is good because it lasts minutes and allows things like summoning a Succubus with Change Shape to make Diplomacy rolls for you at a +20, but in combat does not allow for the sheer power of the Wizard Zerg Rush. Plus, the Eidolon interferes with this too. Assuming he can avoid getting hit at all the Summoner can in fact do a lot over a long time but never hits the higher power of Wizards in this aspect. The Summoner can still take Summon Monster spells, but with a limited number of spells known he would be giving up a good spell slot for a little more versatility.

Don't get me wrong, the Eidolon can have a crapton of natural attacks and can wield a weapon with a feat: an eidolon with a two handed weapon and its natural attacks becomes the party BSF, but he never quite gets the same number of Hitpoints. Eidolons get less hit dice, so there's another weakness. And, of course, shared item slots. That eidolon's not gonna have a Cloak of Resistance if the Summoner has one.

The reason people think Summoners are broken is that Eidolons can in fact do more damage than a fighter. Fighters are going to have more feats though, and Eidolons just get stat and size boosts, which have always been available to Fighters. Everyone assumes having more natural attacks equate more damage, but that's wrong. Natural attacks get eaten by DR and they also cost evolution points. If it was just about number of attack then baby Hecatonchires would be the most powerful character. There's a reason shortsword proficiency + 50 arm evolutions isn't ever actually done.

And last: Summoner spells go up to level 6. That means....lower DCs. An unfortunate loss.

Now that I'm done beating the crap out of my favorite class, time to acknowledge the strengths. The Summoner spell list is still extremely powerful: spells without DCs are death, like Black Tentacles (aka Win The Battle). Pit spells are not only deadly, but in conjuction with a flying grappling Eidolon they become a dump site. Eidolon pick up enemy, flies over pit, end grapple. Eidolons can become large and possibly huge sized, giving them the strength to do whatever strength would accomplish. Flight also helps getting around the field and performing evil ameuvers like flying OVER the battlefield, ignoring melee combatants, grappling someone in reach while hovering, then carrying them to the Pit of Happy spell the Summoner has set up.

The most powerful thing about Summoners that others will bring up is the Synthesist archetype. I don't know where people get the idea that it's really complicated but it does encourage min/maxing score in the order of CHA>INT>WIS>CON>DEX>STR so your physical scores get replaced, but this to me is just a different way to play; if the eidolon dies, you're in melee. As a caster. Whoops.

Nothing powerful about the summoner has not already been complained to death in another class. Remember Druid? Yeah, Summoner is, to me, pretty much an arcane version of Druid. The Druid already had 9 levels of spells, Wild Shape, and an Animal companion. Those together are like playing a Synthesist Summoner who can also summon a separate Eidolon of slightly lesser power. And yet DMs still manage to have successful campaigns with Druids.

So coming full circle, yeah, Summoners are tough, mostly because they are not one trick ponies. But broken? Far from it. Too many weaknesses to account for and not enough Wizard spells to overcome it.

Okay that second to last line clears it up, that makes it much easier.

Simple question, does channel energy affect the cleric using it? The reaosn I ask is that if it does, good clerics heal themselves or harm undead, and evil clerics heal undead or -hurt- themselves, and it seems a little counterproductive for evil clerics to be a little gimped by an ability with a drawback compared to good clerics. If it doesn't affect the cleric using it then it equally benefits both. So which is it?

pika626 wrote:

... And there's also the creation of the Pouch of Infinite Ammunition, which my current party has made use of. It costs a total 6000gp and lasts forever except in an anti-magic field. Sure it may not be able to be used in all games, but it follows the item creation rules and has its successes.

Where is that pouch from? Unless I have missed it, it's not in UC or UE.

If the GM is worried about how much damage the gunslinger is putting out then they should either disallow the pouch or place a limit on it.

Another point brought up earlier was range. A double barrel musket only has a base range of 10' so using the distance enchantment that goes to 20'. So touch AC within 20' (without using grit) with a max range of 100' (at a -8 to hit). An archer using a composite longbow has 110' range increments without any enhancements,

So lets go with DBM with Distance/same but for DBP vs longbow (without Distance/With Distance)

Range Inc 20'/40' vs 110'/220'
Max Range 100'/200' vs 1100'/2200'

Winner: Longbow for range.

Ok now its been said that this is all for high level play (16+)
Lets look at some of the thing you be facing at that level and where you are likely to fight them. (assuming ALP 16)

APL -1
gold dragon (adult), neothelid, phoenix, white dragon (ancient) /NPC with class levels)

Aside from class leveled NPCs each one of those can fly. Each one has abilities that either limit ranged options for the slinger or can attack from outside of max range. (Neothelid just has to charge from 140' away to use 20' reach, hit with tentacle which would average just under 50% of the time, grab with said tentacle and if the slinger cant be freed within 1 round gets swallowed)

Where you are likely to face such creatures, either out in the open so range really makes impact here, or in their lairs which would be buig enough for them to fly around in so that would for areas up to 200'-400' again range problems here for the slinger. Once they move closer then you start becoming...

That's not an official magic item but is completely legitimate given the magic item creation rules.

Also, archers do have a range that cannot be beaten, but think of it this way:

Max range on a composite longbow: 1100 feet. Max range on double barreled pistols: 100 feet. That means that, under the -few- situations where enemies start combat that far away the archer will get attacks before any double barrel gun user.

Okay, so assuming a base land speed of 30 feet and the need to get into melee, that would give enemies 120 foot movement from straight running every round. That's 9 rounds until they are 20 feet away. In this situation the archer can full attack 9 times, 5 foot stepping back each time for an -additional- 45 foot distance between himself and the enemies.

First of all, nobody would want to sit there and just watch the DM take damage into account from an archer while he basically knocks down a turn counter as to when the rest of the party gets to come into combat. And combat at like 7 to 10 range increments would be incredibly boring given the obscene negatives to each attack (-2 per range increment).

Second, this situation is better for an archer. Now consider a dungeon, an underground labyrinth, the interior of a building, a forest, or any other situation in which there is not going to be vision of the enemies withing 1100 feet. Yes, the gunslinger wins. No, stop bringing up "BUT HE ARE CAN BE THE CHARGED!" D10 hit dice. Highest DPR in game. Dexterity as highest prioritized stat. You are more likely to die as a fighter or barbarian than as a pistolero or musket master because unless I'm mistaken fighters share that d10 hit die and barbarians have a slightly higher d12 but are limited to a number of attacks per round due to their weapon not having two blades side by side like the crap that double barrels have been proven to be.

The 10 ft range of a double barrled musket might seem balanced but remember double barreled pistols are 20 ft and proven to be much more broken.

Ssalarn wrote:

Sgt Spectre wrote:

There are lots of fixes Game masters can improve, and I have seen alot of points and counter points. It largely seems that if someone power builds a gunslinger as the original poster shows us, that they can be very dangerous. Do I think thats a cause for a rules change... not really, a GM can handle that on his end with omitting the double weapons. How well does the gunslinger work without the double weapons? IF this neutralizes alot of the problem, then unlike the title of this post reloading isnt the issue, but instead the double firearms are? ***

This is pretty much exactly it. Being able to reload both barrels of a double-barreled firearm as free actions means that firearm wielders are making anywhere from 8-10 attacks per round, at levels where most other characters may be making up to half that. And while the penalties associated with double barreled weapons balance them fairly well for the first 5 levels of the game, those penalties just don't count for much as you proceed past that point. I think probably the simplest fix, is to limit the reloading on the second barrel of a double-barreled weapon in some way. Something like "because of the increased awkwardness of the weapon, the secondary barrel can only be reloaded as a swift action" or something to that effect. That would limit gunslingers to gaining no more than two extra attacks in a full attack routine, which still gives them an advantage, but a much better balanced one.

I love that actually!

Because of the awkwardness of having to reload a hot just used double pistol with fresh gunpower or what have you it takes longer since after loading one barrel you have to load the other one, and simply dont want to blow your own face or hand off. So the second barrel can not be reloaded as a free action..... (insert relevant new action to be used to reload second barrel or reload both barrles of the weapon)

The weapon has its own special rule, and everyone doesnt have to relearn...

That seems like an acceptable fix. See, I don't want to completely remove double barreled weapons, they should be completely optional; it's just that they need an errata to be useable without being broken.

As for that phrase Sgt: power build? What is a power build? I'll tell you what a power build is. A power build is something like Monk1/Sorc6/Pal2/Spellsword3/Fatespinner2/SacredExorcist1/ArcaneDuelist3/Wi tchHunter2 from 3.5, getting Charisma Mod to AC 4 times, to saves 3 times, to will AGAIN via a magic item, and a sorcerer caster level of 12.

This isn't even a power build. Pick class: Gunslinger. Pick archetype: Pistolero. Take Quick Draw and Rapid Reload feats. Take completely normal ranged attacker feats. Win game. The problem is it isn't even power gaming, it's a straight simple progression to get 20 attacks in a round. Sometimes power gaming is fun when every player and the GM have agreed to it, but this? This is the most basic of any progression and it devolves into broken damage. It's not like a class like Wizard that needs a crapton of preparation of different spells, scrolls, magic items, contingent spells if applicable, etc. in order to actually be broken. This? This is just picking what is very blatantly the better option to any logical person.

Sounds like someone isn't playing with misfire rules.

A double barreled musket misfires on a 1-3. If you use paper cartridges, the misfire rate increases to 1-4. That's a 20% chance that your gun is going to break. With every shot.

Combine that with the shorter range of two barrels compared to one, and the fact that you are still spending gold with every shot. Doesn't sound too broken to me. It might to someone crunching numbers on paper, but try it out from level 1-20. Your perspective will change.

Also, this:

Ultimate Combat, page 135 wrote:

Even though the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat grants you proficiency with all firearms, anytime you take a feat that modifies a single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload), you must still pick one specific type of firearm (such as musket, axe musket, blunderbuss, pistol, or double pistol) for that feat to affect.

People seem to forget this a lot. This means that even Musket Masters still need to spend a feat to speed up their double barreled muskets.

You forget good sir. Misfire = broken. Not destroyed. That's a small bit of downtime, especially considering that the freakin' gunslinger treats it as a magic weapon for creation and repair. And if you recall, Quick Clear costs 1 grit point to undo a misfire. The -only- threat is misfiring on both shots simultaneously. Yep, one day, that gun's fine. Also, Mukster Masters and Pistoleros are proficient with ALL two handed and one handed firearms respectively. Thus, no feat tax for that. Also, as has been stated before, magically enchanted firearms can be repaired. They are not outright destroyed. Also, by the time the gunslinger can afford either a double musket or two double pistols, he'll have the cash to enchant them to +1.

And while you can say he's spending gold with every shot, that's not much of a tax. At lower levels, yes, but let's face it, double barreled guns guarantee you're gonna get treasure. There will be something on most anything that can at the very least get your money's worth on the kill. And double muskets might have a range of 10, but double pistols have a range of 20. Distance enchantment doubles the range too. Plus, again, charging the gunslinger is not going to do much as has been stated before. They have light armor, DEX prioritized, and a d10 hit die. That's enough to take a charge attack, 5 ft step back, and unleash death.

I have found that most like to lord over rules with an unyielding resolve holding it over your head. Rules are good, but fun should always come first. Making game breaking character concepts is never fun, and as a GM I like to be present for all character creation so as best to gauge how the PC's stack up and how well they will perform when working together. I salute you for your desire to actually have a character as opposed to little more than stats on a piece of paper.

If something seems broken, fix it dont wait for Paizo, they are busy with alot of things as is. If your faucet is leaking...

Problem here is that Paizo is -supposed- to be playtesting. When Paizo publishes books with much wanted material it's great, but when broken things come up they need to be addressed, because as Paizo makes the game they are basically calling it balanced. Again, the point of Pathfinder was to balance 3.5, not to just make new broken concepts. Yes, GMs may rule at their own discretion but let's face it, sometimes that leads to a slippery slope. If you can rule one thing out you can rule anything, and I've had GMs that just abuse that power to no end. It's not really fun playing a game that you technically do not know the rules to on the simple grounds that you don't know what the DM is thinking.

For example I had a DM essentially make a character of mine useless? Why? I was a rogue skillmonkey. Every time I wanted to use a simple skill for what it was made for I was basically told it can't do that. Ridiculous crap like using Knowledge Local to know a town's law system to help another player. I was told that if I had not actually been there I would not know, despite the fact that this town was not isolated in the least, and that's like saying you can only make a Knowledge Arcana check to know that the Red Dragon is immune to fire if you have seen it hit with a fire spell.

That wasn't directed at anyone in particular Ravingdork...and no insult was meant per say...its just some of these power builds "to me" have no meaning...the game is about so much more than how much damage you can do in one round, or how many times you can attack in one round, its the GM telling a story that your characters play a ROLE in...the GM uses what you give him to make the story a good one that lets you make choices that mean something to your character...it lets you play as someone you always wanted to be or make up a character that coincides with someone in RL you admire or whatever

I personally have had wanted to play a gunslinger...but I never imagined him as the kind the used a "double" pistol or musket, the "double" weapons don't fit any part of what I had imagined in my gunslinger...and if the only reason someone can give me as to why they chose it over a NORMAL gun is because its stronger...then I don't want to play with those people

I know this rant is not about the original question about reloading the gun...its really simple...unless you are playing PFS...then EVERYTHING is GM fiat so why argue...if you are playing PFS...then your GM can give you the rules on this and let it be done.

If the guy with 2 double pistols is killing 5 out of the 6 enemies in the entire combat session and the other 2-4 people get to do nothing...then what fun is that for him or the other players...he will be resented and the other players will probably find a different group or complain about it enough so that the GM is forced to make a different ruling

Exactly my point. Paizo needs to address this so issues like this don't arise. Just one of the many problems with builds that do everyone else's job better.

Remember, that a double pistol loaded with cartridges misfires on 3. If you are firing both barrels at once, that's a 2% chance of your +5 gun going "poof" with no chance to stop, or repair it. Hows that of a monetary expenditure.

Also, The double musket has a range increment of 10. After that you are targeting regular AC and taking -2 to hit. Unless you plan to fight humanoids for your whole career, being within 10 ft of any target is suicide. I'd also like to see you stay at 10 or 20 ft without spending move actions.

Theory crafting is all well and good, but you are ignoring the primary balancing factor of guns. Short range and low reliability.

Okay, now can you take a look at the double barreled pistol, the game breaking weapon? Yeah, that's the thing giving 20 attacks.

"When a nonmagical firearm explodes, the weapon is destroyed. Magical firearms are wrecked, which means they can’t fire until they are fully restored (which requires either the make whole spell or the Gunsmithing feat)." Not much of a money expenditure there for your +1 double barreled gun, and that money expenditure is random. Definitely not gonna be as much as the archer who has to outright replace his bow at times.

The balance issue is not guns. It's double guns.

So what would happen if you took away double pistols and double rifles?

Would that fix the problem? Looking at alot of what was posted seems to be fine, with really only 1 set of weapons truly breaking the game by allowing for a large volume of damage. As the above poster noted that arrows do benefit from the same effects as the Snapshot set of feats.

Taking away the double weapons, would also seem to fix the problem with reloading as people are thinking that the reload is broken because of the ability to reload the double barreled weapon of the musket master or the duel wielding double pistols of the pistolero.

Perhaps someone could start posting some positive solutions/ fixes instead of just restating the problem? I would love to see a viable fix, other than omit firearms or nerf reloading unless the same was done for bows, as bows have longer range but dont have the attacks against touch AC at close range that the fire arm has.

Yes, double barreled guns just seem outright broken. Limiting them in some way to NOT double attacks is necessary to have them in the game. Otherwise there is literally no reason for Rangers, Fighters, Paladins, Rogues, or any other damage-dealing class to do anything other than dual wield double barrel pistols.

I have personal issues against Gunslinger. They are -debatable- but have holding ground against it. DEX to damage is powerful. Making mundane guns using Magic Item crafting rules is outright stupid compared to bows, weapons, and armor taking exponentially more time. High HP and two good saves on a ranged glass cannon is just too much on top of all this crap, and the guns themselves get higher damage AND the highest crit multipliers. But these are powerful, not game breaking. And, these are personal issues on the side of balance.

However I'm not really trying to debate that stuff in this thread directly. I'm looking to get enough out of this thread to get Paizo to look at the freakin' elephant in the room. The elephant with two double barreled pistols on weapon cords.

And yeah, i didn't take into account that you would only get one double shot as an AoO on a charger. Still, high damage, d10 hit dice, and light armor for enchanting. Not much of a threat there, unless it's something that would be a threat to every character build.

So does everyone that plays PF just powergame? Like does no one come up with a character concept, attitude, and personality FIRST, then make up the character using a class that fits him? HOLY JESUS COW!!! I am playing the wrong game...thought the "RP" in RPG meant role-playing, not create the most powerful character you can without regard to anyone else having fun....I WAS WRONG!!! SO WRONG!!! /cry

Did you even read the thread?

Let me put it to you this way Drakkiel. It's a roleplaying game. So what is your character going to say, think, or do, when after 10 levels of adventuring the party pistolero is the only one doing anything meaningful? You want to use that flawed "It's an RPG" argument? Let's think of it this way. The NPCs are not robots. They would see guns are the most powerful weapon. Why would anyone pick up a sword when they can just shoot everything to death? You know, like what happened in real life?

Plus, how does "concept, attitude, and personality" fall into this? Let me pose you this all too familiar scenario to most veterans: You have 4 players in the game. One is a Sorceror because it's easier to keep account of things than wizard. He's your generic blaster caster. One guy wants to make the sterotypical oversized anime-sword wielding fighter. One guy's playing a ranger who shoots a bow and has a pet wolf cuz he likes the idea of a wolf-tamer. The last player is a pistolero with all the TWF feats, double barreled pistols, gloves of storing, and everything that was basically mentioned in this thread.

Stop and think. These players are going to notice that sword-man, bow-man, and fire-man are combining their abilities to just barely keep up in damage with the pistolero. He'll, at a minimum, do about as much damage as the rest of the party combined. This will cause the other three players to basically know their characters are worthless. They may as well just take up the social and utility roles because there's no roleplaying some character if they can't do what they're supposed to.

Let's say you've got experienced players. The paladin has a 5 page backstory on exactly why demons have plagued his life and he has sworn himself to hunt them down in the name of justice. How is this going to play out in game when the pistolero is the one gunning all the demons down before the paladin can get in a smite evil?

Power is part of roleplaying. It's inherently there. And worst yet it can cause problems. In an amicable party an overpowered character might be accepted. Sometimes players want the whole party to do what they want, and as I have seen before if they have unchecked power they can in fact simply decide what the party will do. So for your roleplay note, there it is. This is a heavy impact on the roleplaying as well.

@Dakota_Strider

You STILL don't have to use it.
Also, you clearly have no understanding about gun rules for Golarion.
For example, touch attack: My Musket Master can do this at a range of 40 feet. Sometimes 50 feet. Easy charging distance for any baddie.
And then a little tidbit: If I fire fast, I will have a big problem if I roll a 1-3. Last session I rolled three bad rolls and suddenly... Nothing. Our sorcerer did much more damage in the fight.
And something else: I have to pay up to 6 GM PER SHOT! And this is *with* crafting. And thats a big deal for Level 4...

@Thread starter
I wouldn't do it with double-barreled weapons (because I don't like being the one who breaks the fun for the other people), but it seems to be RAW. So, a proposal: Just say, that the second barrel gives you only one attack, regardless of any two-weapon-feats.

Sure, charging distance is a problem for most. But honestly? What does it matter? Gunslingers: Light armor, d10 hit dice (becuase standing around fiddling with a tube of metal is totally the same as exercising with a sword or bow every day), and TWO good saves. Also, this is a ranged character. The Snapshot feats will allow this guy to get off -two- attacks of opportunity in this situation. How?

Once you have Improved Snapshot you will threaten a range of 15 feet. Yes, that is correct: Snapshot threatens 5 feet, and Improved Snapshot threatens an -additional- ten feet. So, the charging "death" is going to take 1 AoO for leaving the square 15 feet away from you, AND one for leaving the square 10 feet away. Then, if you have Greater Snapshot, you get more damage on those AoOs. And that damage goes up as you level. And if you crit? There will be no charge attack.

Again, this can be done with an archer. But a double barreled gun will make this into 4 AoO's and not to mention that at that range you are targeting Touch AC. Your attacks will almost surely hit. Then this -single- charge attack will be retaliated with a 5 ft step back and a barrage of death. If this is a Pounce attack from something, yes, it might be a problem. For larger creatures the benefit is more since they can move point blank and guarantee they get an AoO, but then again this is a d10 hit die class. Not really in a huge danger of dying when retaliation attacks hurt more than any other d10 or higher class.

As for misfires, those aren't an issue. The Quick Clear ability says if you misfire once you swift-action clear it with a grit point to fix the gun instantly. The problem is misfiring on both attacks at the same time. A Musket Master using alchemical cartridges is gonna misfire on a 1-4, which essentially gives each double-shot a 6% chance of exploding the gun. The -more broken- Pistolero will only misfire on a 1-3 using alchemical cartridges, assuming that he can't already as per the first ruling of the reload rules use shots for reloading as a free action, which would simply put his misfire at 1-2. Again, these values become moot at higher levels when those archetypes never misfire.

Last, it is -not- 6 GP per shot with crafting. A bullet costs 1 gold, thus is crafted for 1 silver. Alchemical cartridges of the cheapest varitey cost 12 gold, Thus, crafted for 1 gold, 2 silver. That's not 6 GP per shot.

True, but I quickly corrected myself to mean the archetypes.

Those three things break Musket Master but I forgot that the sheer amount of crap that lowers reload time means that every class's best option is to go cowboy on the enemies.

I welcome any archer build to be presented that can compete with gunslinger. I already know that through sheer Weapon Mastery a Fighter can in fact do as much damage as a Gunslinger. Rangers not so much, but they get other abilities for utility, plus animals for extra help.

Another problem here: if you are an archer, you have to build an -entirely- new bow every time your strength goes up, or you have to get the enchantment that matches the strength modifier to yours (but being a +X enchantment that means your price for other stuff scales higher). Gunslingers just have one gun, maybe make a second, and they're done.

Well most classes get weird or skew at or around level 15 as developers have stated.

Also to achieve that amount of shots per round they are very heavily feat and magic dependant, hrmmmm.

I personally dont much of a problem with the gunslinger, though most of my experience with characters is usually with what I believe to be their most fun moments levels 4 though 10 usually. It seems most classes start to come into their defining abilities then. If a gunslinger could pull off 12 attacks at level 6 I would defintely have a problem. Also it seems to do that many attacks they need the double barreled pistol? Just make house/ special rules for firing the double barrel pistol.

Ultimately that seems to be the most logical complaint I have seen is with the double barreled weapons. Using single barrel weapons and the like work ok because you arent getting the extra round fired every time you are able to reload once you get all the feats and all your weapons enchanted.

I say really leave the weapons and reloading as is, just focus on special rules for the Double Barrel weapons then. Some people try to quote realism... but someone being able to nock and fire 6+ arrows in 5 seconds doesnt bother anybody, but being able to reload a revolver pistol as a free action does (they get upset saying its unrealistic, not for balance is what I am getting at). Plus hey... you have giant lizards burping fire and people shooting fire balls from their hands, if someone can reload a pistol or nock an arrow quickly... well its ok.

As for reaching a power like this at 6th level? Let's take a look at the fact that at 6th with Rapid Shot the Musket Master will in fact have 6 attacks in a round. Given that that's mid-to-low level encounters how long do you think the average thing is gonna last against 6 shots a round? Plus, this is just an argument waiting to happen if your party has an archer. The archer is just going to get blown away by how little he does by comparison at lower levels, and at higher levels no amount of feats or anything is going to stump 12 attacks.

Thank you for pointing out the plethora of ways that a Pistolero can in fact fire 20 times in a round with full reloading.

Which... honestly... I don't understand one bit. Speed weapon is a +3 bonus, for that price, if you're willing to put it on both of your weapons, you deserve the extra attack >.<

Please read the topic and the posts before you post. Speed enchantments are not the issue here.

Again, let me re-iterate: read the first post. There needs to be a certain clarification. I realize people are fine with a lot of things like firing 6+ arrows and such but this is an issue of simple ridiculousness. Here are the main points to be had:

1. Given the fact that the rules can easily be interpreted to a Musket Master or Pistolero reloading as a free action, double barreled guns do in fact DOUBLE the number of attacks you can get in a round, thus causing a HUGE disparity in damage between gunslingers and other classes.

2. No clear build has been given for an archer type character that can do anything near the gunslinger's damage or such, and that's before counting a double barreled gun.

3. The rules can possibly be interpreted TWO different ways. See first post to understand why.

4. Balance is a real issue here. People are talking about fire lizards, magic, and whatnot but the core issue here is that a double-barreled gun, COMBINED with the Musket Master/Pistolero archetypes, PLUS a very legitimate sounding interpretation is just not balanced.

5. Regarding balance issues, the Gunslinger is already firing at touch AC, adding his DEX mod to damage on each hit (this eliminates multiple ability dependency that archers face), having TWO good saves, full base attack, AND having d10 hit dice. This can be debated. Doubling this kind of damage cannot.

6. The issue here has been derailed by too many posters and is starting to irk me. The issue is NOT gunslingers. The issue is NOT double-barreled weapons. The issue is definitely NOT Speed enchantments. The issue is that combining either the Musket Master or Pistolero archetypes with double-barreled weaponry and following the ruling that each barrel can thus be reloaded as a FREE action causes an unstoppable amount of damage.

Also, while I am at it, I also find it ridiculous that a Gunslinger can build a gun as if it were a magic item, taking mere days to make it, while weaponsmiths and bowmakers take much longer. I mean having a strength modifier of 4 means that a masterwork composite longbow costing 800 gold is going to require craft checks to make 8000 silver when a check per -week- is (check x DC) in silver. At level 5 with Master Craftsman as a feat and max ranks the archer can make his bow at a take ten check of 23 assuming someone can use Aid Another to add a +2 every day.. The DC to craft a composite bow is 15 + double the strength mod. That means his check is (23 x 23) = 529 silver per -week-. That's a little over two weeks to make such a bow. That's notable down time that would not exist in a fast-paced game, limiting archers even further by forcing them to either go without or pay more for their weapons. Gunslingers get the ability to make their weapons for FREE - they don't use skills.

Thus, gunslingers with their free feat AND the little quip at the end of it take 1 day to make their initial weapon -into- a masterwork weapon. Given they craft 1000 gp per day of the item, it takes a Gunslinger exactly 3 days to make a Masterwork Double Barreled Musket. That's 3 days to treat metal, hammer it into very precise shapes, carve the stock, smith the small hammers, etc. A bow maker, who just wants a bow that is strong, has to take over 15 days at level 5 at best (assuming ONLY a strength mod of 4 - higher would take longer obviously), while the gunslinger can have his double musket before then.

Also, the gunslinger crafts ammo for 1/10 the price, while everyone else can only craft for 1/3.

Okay, here's how I'm getting the ridiculous number of attacks:

First, assume a 16th level character or onwards. This would mean they get 4 attacks, like any Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin, etc., including Gunslinger.

Next, add Rapid Shot. This means as a full attack you get one MORE attack. Also, add either the Haste spell or the Speed enchantment, which adds another attack. Now we have the 6 attacks that archers and brawlers can make. This is very normal, pretty much par for the course.

Now let's take things a step further. Two Weapon fighting has three feats: Two Weapon Fighting, and its Improved and Greater versions that altogether add 3 more attacks. Factor in Haste/Speed enchantment on this off hand and you get another attack with the weapon, for 4 more attacks. We are up to ten. This is feat-heavy and legitimate for any melee fighter with two weapons and for any hand-crossbow user who will still only be shooting d4 damage without any stat to add to damage like a bow.

Now look at the Pistolero: with TWO double-barreled pistols he can fire -both- barrels as an attack. At the same time. If, referring to my first post, he is completely able to reload these with free actions (requiring Quick Draw, just like using two hand crossbows) then his ten attacks are each using two bullets. That's double the attacks on a higher damaging weapon. Yes, there are attack penalties, but again, a -4 to all attacks in exchange for literally double the attacks is ridiculous. And this is only possible because firing both barrels is just counted as one attack.

Before I forgot you can't get 4 off hand attacks so my math was off a bit but this is still an extremely broken ability. Thus; either the action for reloading multiple barrels needs to be errata'd as some sort of increase to the action or there is literally no reason to play any ranged class other than Pistolero or Musket Master.

And just for the sake of having the math here, 4 attacks from BAB + 1 from Rapid shot + 1 from Haste/Speed is 6 attacks, which the Musket Master with a double barreled musket doubles to 12. With a two-handed gun.

The problems here are that you have a class adding DEX to damage (removing the multiple ability dependency of an archer who needs DEX to hit and STR for damage), targeting touch AC instead of full AC, doing higher damage dice rolls, criticals hitting at a x4 multiplier, and a low, eventually non-existent misfire chance. I must remind everyone that the Musket Master and Pistolero get abilities that say they never, ever misfire with their weapons of choice. Ever.

This is a powerful character already. Doubling attacks is just insane to add to this.

Just to be sure:

It is the Double Barrel Guns that bother you, or all guns?

You would prefer that Gunslingers be unable to reload any firearm as a free action?

I haven't looked at it but I am almost sure that there are balancing trade-offs that make archer type players as powerful as a gunslinger. I am fine with gunslinger given low-tech guns.

My problem is the wording on shooting double-barrel guns has some confusing wording that can easily be interpreted to say that Musket Masters and Pistoleros are just outright overpowered firing so much and so often that the sheer amount of attacks and damage would swiss-cheese most everything. Even at low levels; A Musket Master at level 6 could be interpreted as shooting 6 attack a round - the sword-swinger can get 5 at high levels with a Haste spell or enchanted weapon. This doesn't mean the gunslinger is broken, just that these archetypes would require some balancing; otherwise the game teeters on the paper-thin line where too many enemies would overwhelm and instantly kill, while too few would get picked off one or two in a round.

And Jiggy, I'm just using common sense. Given that the idea of Pathfinder was to balance 3.5 I'm fairly certain that nobody at Paizo intended for a class to be able to shoot so often, especially given that the Pistolero which has now been brought to my attention will just decimate enemies through firing an obscene amount of attack every round. Taking into account 5 rapid shot attacks for the archer, you're talking doubling that. TWICE. That's 20 shots. And once you hit level 13? No misfires.

EDIT: Forgot hasted weapons. That's 24 attacks in a round. That's the exact same 3.5 ridiculousness that needed to be re-done. Now, if you're essentially guaranteed to crit every round based on just rolling that many times there's just not much to fight that with other than obscenely long and convoluted battles based around NOT letting the pistolero even see you.

I can clearly understand shooting every round consistently, but my issue is that a double barreled gun should at most add one attack at the beginning of combat due to the two barrels, then more attacks if grit points are used at higher levels. There should be an option to, say, hide and fully reload for another full round of attacks of 6 attacks. However, 10 attack should outright not exist.

Realism might be debatable but balance is still paramount.

@darkwarriorking: My party already paid for abundant ammunition pouches. They're pretty good, and I'm pretty sure if you poison the ammunition inside it duplicates poisoned ammunition (like poisoned arrows), but that might need clarification. We looked up the price for creating such a thing and to be honest I'm not sure why there isn't a magic item like this already. Then again my party early on looted a lot of arrows off enemies and are still working off a stockpile of 300 so I'm pretty sure this is mainly for the Gunslinger.

Okay he -is- in fact the Musket Master archetype. I just remembered that right now so that should clarify that yes, this is the problem.

Also, where did you get the text for that Lightning Reload thing? The SRD says that you don't spend the grit point (once per round as a swift action still seems balanced though):

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The problem is the action economy of the two-barreled two-handed gun. I highly doubt Paizo wanted an archetype to be able to shoot 10 times a round. Count it all you want, shooting ten times is double that of an archer and it means that, at worst, you are targeting Total Concealment, hitting half as much, which is as good as being an archer under optimal circumstances. This is -before- you factor in high damage dice rolls, DEX mod to damage, touch AC instead of full AC, and TWO good saves.

Wait, where's the once per round wording? If I missed that I'm going to smack myself with my cats.

Okay, first you must understand the situation.

If you have a musket it takes a full round to reload it. Knock it down to a standard for Rapid Reload, a move with Lightning Reload on top, and a free action using alchemical cartridges.

This is 100% viable. My problem? The rules say it takes a full-round action to load each barrel of a gun. Thus, if you have a double barrel musket, there's a problem.

Rule possibility #1: It is a free action to load each barrel, then fire. This is broken to me. I mean you can bring all you want up this plainly means that a Gunslinger is in fact going to shoot literally twice as much as an archer of any build. Just Rapid Shot + level 16 says you get 10 attacks a round and I'm pretty sure Pathfinder wanted some of the 3.5 cheese to stay there and age (read: rot). Furthermore this ruling means that even if there was a 57 barrel gun you could reload and shoot it as if it were a single barrel gun. Logically that doesn't make sense but mechanically under this ruling it is sound.

Rule possibility #2: The reloading of both barrels must be done simultaneously to use both and this it is 2 full round actions to reload the whole thing, which through Rapid Reload + Lightning Reload + Alchemical Cartridge knocks it from 2 full round to 1 full round to 1 standard to 1 move action. This seems more feasible, but my only problem is that this makes double barreled weapons really only useful for an extra shot the first round of combat (unless I am missing something). But, is this technically a sound ruling?

Okay, I REALLY like the ideas here so far but as far as stealing ideas I really don't have a large amount of source material other than video games (which is pretty large but that's why I'm asking for help: I want more than just Fantasy Scrolls Age Quest LXVIII).

As far as the setting; it's a work in progress. Thus far, I've decided that this is my setting:

The "apocalypse" happened many, many centuries ago. Society went through tough times but through the struggles of all humanoid races things have been rebuilt and have peaked for a time. Thus, the reason so many different ruins across the land would exist for dungeon delving is because of the destruction of many evil cults. Evil was driven back to a small section of a land that for now will be called the Forsaken Hills. Small cults may exist throughout the world but evil above ground poses little threat on such a large scale that it previously did.

People migrated in large numbers to places where their ideals held fast. The Magocracy now touts itself as the melting pot of the world having attracted all races, the Theocracy hold itself as the front-line garrison against evil being next door to the Forsaken Hills, those who despise and fear magic now hold their ways in the isolated Kingdom known for the most powerful warriors in the world, and the Desert Empire holds many mines and beaches where its profits come from precious gems and metals but is plagued by being in constant turmoil by the assassins that essentially run the politics. The Elven Forest was mentioned earlier, it prefers to ignore the threat of evil until it comes to attack despite having valuable resources to aid a constant war like Darkwood and other wood-based materials and equipment, not to mention the prowess of different elven races in combat. The Dwarven Mountains are placed right between a mostly Taiga/Tundra wasteland and the Forsaken Hills, separated by massive mountain ranges but connected by underground tunnels. The dwarves are known to be stingy by other races, however the dwarves heavily pride themselves on being the first line of defense against evil.

Now there is a little mixing where need be; as always, there are many, many traders on the Dwarven continent's ports, but it's mostly mountainous dwarves inland. The elves have many forests and lands where their kind reside across their nation, which is mostly left alone except for trade areas due to elves being more aloof and living much longer, thus seeing some life-long human conflicts as somewhat futile. The Orcs have dispersed encampments around the Dwarven Mountains and in the Farmland nation near the Magocracy. While many orcs still hunger for battle, they have been somewhat complacent in simply building strength since the great war took out most everyone's numbers and they were required to cooperate against great evils. However, many orcs are still evil themselves, so they operate across the world on a "raid-or-trade" mentality depending on the strength of their enemy. Gnomes tend to travel in sparse groups on their own whims, usually to simply find something they're curious about, so they're more concentrated in areas like the Elven Forest where they search for different natural beauties, the Dwarven Mountains where they love to delve caverns and ruins, and the Desert Empire's ever changing political structure gives them plenty of freedom to sell their finds in markets. They also make a good seafaring folk because of this. Halflings travel as well, but they tend to travel in organized caravans where they trade, craft, and sell constantly. They're found most everywhere and are mostly only settled in a country's largest cities, so they're found everywhere. The Theocracy is mostly made up of humans who find worth in fighting evil and tend to fill out most roles necessary in both the Theocracy, in the Desert Empire where the more shrewd ones can fight using their pens and speech, and in the Kingdom where their strongest warriors fight for honor and to suppress the power of magic over their land. Of course, these are simply the places where they are the most concentrated. Like the small races, they're found most everywhere.

If I made a bit of a conflicting statement about the races it is because I have yet to read any race related books in Pathfinder (please let me know if there are some). And, if anyone has other ideas they want to toss given this information feel free to. I know it's crowded blocks of text but what I have written is so much larger I fear it would take too long.

It may sound a bit lazy but I feel it may not only help myself but potentially other people looking to run a game, I'm looking for different possible conflicts that may be going on between areas and within themselves. Not a random d100 that gives a random quest, but actual possible conflicts that would exist in certain areas.

To give an example of what I am looking for:

I have a country that is heavily invested in magic; for now, we'll call this the Magocracy. It's run by mages, but it isn't so magic heavy that it has ridiculous stuff like magical trains and elevators and whatnot. One conflict idea I have is between the commoners and the magocracy; while all wizards would know using a summoning spell (summoning, not calling) to summon a demon to fight for you is possible regardless of alignment and thus isn't evil, the average townsfolk have a hard time swallowing these stories and believe the mages are putting power above all. Additionally, the capital and major cities are heavily diverse, seeing as how every race's mages and alchemists and whatnot (yes, even the orcs due to their alchemist favored class option) it can be seen by the natives that the mages are selling out the land to foreigners. Additionally, the barbaric land of warriors, for now called the Kingdom, despises and fears magic, so the two have never gotten along.

Another example: The Theocracy, called so because the nation is theocratical and heavily Lawful Good, has had a problem in that many of the paladins, holy warriors of justice, are not able to be sent out into combat, namely due to having lost powers over abuse and abridging of their gods' codes and due to the fact that paladins are both staunch warriors and celebrities revered by the townsfolk. This is partly inspired by the ideal of the paladin being a chivalrous holy knight and the problem of players overanalyzing their codes, trying to get around them, and trying to force parties into playing their alignment as well and possibly being domineering. Just a small idea I had since it would be feasible that, given the amount of perks that come with paladinhood in such a country that corruption would become an increasing problem. Additionally, the Theocracy has some growing conflict with the Magocracy's wanton use of magic, even necromancy, and they are also not fond of some other races, namely the freedom-loving elves who prefer not to get involved in crusades and the halfling caravans that seem to invite theft.

These are just a couple ideas of what I am toying with. Obviously I'm also looking at how monsters would play a role in all of this. Pleas,e feel free to toss any suggestions my way, I'd love to hear other people's ideas, especially if they've been played in a campaign.

Actually I figured out how to use the zonegamma one. My bad, turns out I had to check the thing to hide the percentage details and one to actually generate the items rather than the percentages. Now it works perfectly, but I have to ask, what books have been incorporated into it? I can't seem to find it on the site.

Yup, that's the one. Good job on it, gonna keep this in my folder of things for my game. Thanks!

Yeah, I noticed that myself....was confused why it seemed to link back to the first forum page.

EDIT: Did a google search and found it. I kinda like this now; obviously not 100% click and go, but I can use this in conjunction with the Zonegamma one. Just for good measure I'm gonna do some pre-rolls and see if I can't make an encounter out of it.

I'm looking for something online that can help me. I'm looking to sorta streamline a bit of the DMing process. Where can I find a Pathfinder random loot generator?

I saw the Zonegamma one and I gotta say....I don't like it. All it does is give me percentages. I'm looking for something that will literally tell me what random weapons with what enchantments and such come up. If possible I'd like a generator that includes all pathfinder sources, but I know that would be a good bit of effort.

Still, to me it seems like Pathfinder should have something like that. I never liked that random loot generators made things faster but only counted a couple sources. It was like 3.5 and the Magic Item Compendium which held everything....except the other sources outside itself and the core books. No Stormwrack, Libris Mortis, etc.

Dunno if this has been said or not, but read Synthesist. I had plans of having a large eidolon like that but the rules explicitly state the eidolon must be the same size as the summoner. Enlarge Person would have to be looked into as the eidolon is technically an outsider but still, you can't have a large synthesist right off the bat.

Summoners in general aren't really cut out for magic item crafting, and have a lot less need for it when it comes to casting thier own spells. If item crafting really has an itch for you, you're better off with wondrous items.

Keep in mind also that staves with spells not on your class list require Use Magic Device rolls for each usage.

Hehehe. Already took Craft Wondrous Item. Summoners get lotsa feats if you count the eidolon but for the summoner himself there's not much. Expanded Arcana a couple times, Greater Spell Focus in Conjuration Augment Summoning...Skill Focus in UMD and Spellcraft...and then Improved Initiative? Craft Staff just seemed to be a cool way to get some good magic items. After all, they are rechargeable given a reasonable amount of downtime.

Also liked staves. I think I will take the feat since the staff -must- have some kind of theme. I suppose I'll put the horrid memories of Locke the bragging failficer behind me and think of maybe one or two concepts to make a staff out of. I suppose upping the CL won't be too bad, I'll even remove that Grease spell and make the 'Staff of Walls'.

Yes you can have someone else (or a scroll or wand etc) to be casting the spell for you.

Now why do you want to create an exact copy of one of the staves that are in the books? just create a staff with spells you know, the formula to calculate the price is right there.

Actually you bring up another question. First off I usually don't like making my own magic items because it seems a bit metagamy and a friend of mine was a fail artificer in 3.5 His 2/day Rod of Disintigration was real helpful when he shot it twice and in total maybe got 1/10th the cost in usage.

Anyway, my next question is this: can you create an item at a lower caster level than your own if it means you couldn't cast the spell but another class could?

Here' the same Staff of Obstacles: Highest level spell is Wall of Stone. A 5th level Wizard spell and a 4th level Summoner spell, but Wizard can cast it at CL 7 while Summoner needs to be 10th level. Doesn't this, by the rules, mean that the summoner incurs a higher cost because he would NEED to make that staff at CL 10 as opposed to 8? Can he actually make staves at CL 8 because of the feat Craft Staff, bypassing his own limitations?

you can just add 5 to the DC to create and make it without knowing the spell needed

No, not in the case of spell trigger and spell completion activated items. It explicitly states you need the spell.

So I'm playing my second pathfinder game, first that has plans of being long running. I'm a summoner and I looked at the Craft Staff feat. It would be amazing for my companions to have staves with more spells, as well as myself, but I don't have the spells known to make ANY staves. At all. And I mean summoner spells, not that I don't know them, but that summoner cannot learn them.

Normally this wouldn't be a problem. Summoner can't cast Arcane Lock, so he can't make the Staff of Obstacles. Summoner can't cast Greater Magic Weapon (but CAN cast Greater Magic Fang - go figure) so he can't make the Staff of Bolstering. If these were use-activated or something I could make them by just upping the Spellcraft DC by 5 and still have a reasonable abiliy to make it. But the rules explicitly state that I must be able to cast the spell to make spell trigger or spell completion items.

Now here's my question: since I can substitute not having the spell by having someone else help me make the item by casting it, could I substitute not having the spell. And I quote, "These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."

Now, this does mean I can make technically ANY magic item as long as I have someone or something there to cast the spell.

"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

"The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells."

"The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff 's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)"

Does this mean that, technically, I COULD make the Staff of Obstacles? According to my logic, I would need 26 days, each day using my own spell slots AND using 26 scrolls of 8th caster level Arcane Lock. Thus adding a cost of 25 x Spell level 1 x Caster Level 8 x 26, or rather 5,200 gp. So the 25,800 gp staff would cost me 12,900 + 5,200 gp, for a total cost of 18,100 gp, 70% of the market price as opposed to the normal 50%.

Is this a viable method to make items like these using this method of substituting higher-leveled scrolls in place of knowing the spell? It simply states that I must be able to use the spell via an item, but the entry under creating staves says I must have the material components to activate each spell 50 times - do I need to thus have 50 scrolls or is it sufficient to have 1 per day of crafting?

And yes, this is my first post, nice to meet everyone, and as you can tell I do tend to make large posts just to make sure I've encompassed all I can.