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Ah - the monster needs a 20 to hit (as specified, Jakiro uses ki dodge), hence the smaller Rot damage.@wraithstrike: no Jakiro is the Dex monk I posted on page 1. I'm not going to run the paladin-monk in the Proving Grounds, it was just a thought experiment so it's not fully thought-through.
Well once you know the percentage it is easier to figure out. As an example someone with an 80% chance to succeed will make it 4/5 times so assume the 5th round is the failing round.That also assumes that the monster is spending 5 turns using dominate (and not much else). If it doesn't have at-will dominate it may be hard to accept.
True so you go by the number of times the monster does use the ability for better accuracy.
Your numbers for rot seem to be off also.
The monster needs a 16 to hit you so it has a .2 chance for that. However if it does the Rot ability has a 65% chance to succeed. That puts us at .13 x 2(con damage)=.26 con damage a round.
The monster still gets his butt kicked I think. My invurnable rager should be able to take him also as soon as I stop being lazy. So far, assuming I am right, only archetypes are winning this.
I did not see a 39 AC unless you made more than one version and I looked at the wrong one.
PS: Oh I see the normal AC is 35, and you use the ki to make it 39. Interesting, just keep track of how many of those ki points you have left. I will post the last fight of day 1 later today or tomorrow. :)
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Flatfooted AC is fine, as the wisdom and monk still apply.Figures? The monk of yours I can find is the dwarf monk, with AC22, which I have beat. Lorewarden's dex monk is up at AC35, but this monk has two MAJOR problems: suriving until he gets an agile AoMF, and relying on drinking potions like a fish ahead of any encounter. One greater dispel and this monk is knocked way down on AC. It's a nice design, but not a practicable one.
Again, the Paladin you posted is nice, against a single evil target per encounter (and even pretty good against non-evil).He can use divine bond, weapon of awe, and his boots of speed to be effective enough against multiple non-evil foes, the paladin's only "weakness".
It will do great in this format against evil and "struggle" against non-evil. It is also slow, has a very heavy ACP on a skill starved class.50' movement isn't slow. This guy is not relying on the party wizard to cast haste he can pull 10 rounds a day out of his boots, which is as many uses as a monk this level get's ki.
Skill starved? Sure. But not spell-starved, and spells do more than skills.
I thought the gap was significantly reduced with the haste and AoMF rulings. These threads are making me think it may be gone at this point.Your dwarf monk's DPR vs AC24, with haste & ki, I make at 94.6. That and a way lower AC, worse saves, fewer immunities...you're on a loser. Lorewarden's tricked-out Dex monk is cranking out the same hits, inflicting 85.8 DPR. He has better AC by a long way, but most of that AC is dependent on buffs easily blown away. Take them off and he's on 27AC, 31 at max (using ki) against the max AC of the paladin at AC28 vs what he's smiting. Add in the paladin's self-healing to the equation and the paladin is ahead on defences AND on offences, and with spells could well be a match on versatility.
Now if we crank up the...
The monk was human, not dwarf. Typo. I'll repost here for discussion and comparison (and also because it needs clean up. That is what I get for adjusting someone elses template rather than starting from scratch)
Monk 10
LN Medium Human
Init +4; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 22 , touch 20, flat-footed 19 (+2 armor, + 2 Dex, +2 Monk AC, +5 Wis, +1 deflection, +1 dodge) Barkskin +4 with 1 ki 100 minutes
hp 78.5 (9d8+10+10+10+10 Con, Toughness, Favored)
Fort +9, Ref +10, Will +13 (+2 vs. enchantment; +2 spells)
Defensive Abilities: Improved Evasion, Deflect Arrows
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +16/+11 (1d10+11/20/x2) +1d6 acid
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows (+17/+17/+12/+12) w/ki (+17/+17/+17/+12/+12) w/ki and Haste (+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13)
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Statistics
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Str 22 (15+2 (human) +1 4th), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20 (15+1 8th +2 Headband), Cha 9
Base Atk +7; CMB +16; CMD +23
Feats (In Order): 1 Toughness; 1 Dodge; 2 Deflect Arrows; 3 Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike); 5 Dragon Style; 6 Mobility; 7 Spring Attack; 9: Dragon Ferocity, 10 Improved Critical (unarmed)
Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (stealth), Reactionary
Skills: (4 Per level) Perception +17(10+3+3), Stealth (10+3+3) +17, Sense Motive (10+3+3) + 17, Acrobatics (10+3+2) +15
Other Gear Belt of Strength +4: 16,000, Bracers of Armor +1 4,000, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (16k); 8,000 Deliquescent gloves, 4,000 Headband of Wisdom, Boots of speed 12,000. Cloak of Resistance +1, 1 Enlarge Potion (250), 1 Fly Potion (750)
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Special Abilities
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Flurry of Blows: Fight like TWF w/level as BAB +8/+8/+3/+3
Fast Movement: +30ft
Unarmed Strike: 1d10+11
Stunning Fist: Save DC 20
Evasion: No damage on successful reflex save
Ki Pool: 10
Slow Fall swapped for Barkskin +4
High Jump swapped for Ki Arrow
Wholeness of Body: 10 hit points for 2 Ki.
Ignore difficult terrain when charge, run or withdraw
Enemy Staggers on unarmed crit.
Add 1/2 strength to unarmed.
AC 22 without barkskin. Barkskin is 1 ki point for 100 minutes, which would take me to 26. In most groups, I would pass on the bracers and just get mage armor cast once a day, taking me to 28 and saving me 4k I could spend elsewhere.
And you keep neglecting to mention your bonuses are only against the target of your smite.
You are correct that 50 movement isn't slow. But your movement is 20 unless you are using one of your 10 rounds of haste to move to position, you are burning that round as one you don't have for an additional full attack. Meanwhile the monk moves at 60, period. Hell, the monk can go 80 if it burns a Ki. And throw a stunning fist on the end 10 times a day.
And while you have access to spells, how many spells do you have and what do they do? Add to that you take full ACP and only get 2 skill points a level.
Looking back, I probably should have downgraded to AoMF +1 since I get the DR naturally, and then gotten an ioun stone to boost attack and gotten my monk robe back as well as adding a better ranged option. But either way, your Paladin isn't particularly blowing any of the posted monks away, which was the claim.
I was with you in the old thread Dabbler, I'm not seeing it in this one with the fixes that were implemented. Your Paladin is fine, my monk is fine, Lemmy's 10th level companions are fine. All have strengths, all have weaknesses, all could be great parts of a party and would struggle solo.
Which is exactly what is supposed to happen.
the paladin has a 50 ft movement because of his mount. typically a horse.
before you say you cannot fit a horse in most dungeons.
let me point out, that by level 4, you end up beginning to face larger foes and thus dungeon spaces become larger to accommodate.
any space that can accommodate a giant, can accommodate a horse
the paladin has a 50 ft movement because of his mount. typically a horse.
before you say you cannot fit a horse in most dungeons.
let me point out, that by level 4, you end up beginning to face larger foes and thus dungeon spaces become larger to accommodate.
any space that can accommodate a giant, can accommodate a horse
Most dungeons are still made for medium sized creatures at level 4. You may fight a large monster occasionally, but it is not common until later levels.
Most dungeons are still made for medium sized creatures at level 4. You may fight a large monster occasionally, but it is not common until later levels.the paladin has a 50 ft movement because of his mount. typically a horse.
before you say you cannot fit a horse in most dungeons.
let me point out, that by level 4, you end up beginning to face larger foes and thus dungeon spaces become larger to accommodate.
any space that can accommodate a giant, can accommodate a horse
level 2-4 is when you start facing your first Ogre and/or Ettin, depending on how your DM judges CR and such factors as size. they occur more at 4 than they do at 2.
oh wait, Ogres and Ettins are to be considered easy challenges at level 4. and they deal enough damage to shake up a level 4-5 party's resources.
i'm not saying that they are the bulk of an encounter
but any dungeon large enough to fit one Ogre or Ettin, is large enough to fit a horse.
oh wait, paladin doesn't get a horse until level 5, and a cavalier's horse is ignored until that level.
not saying you can fit multiple horses next to each other, but one mounted knight makes an easy way to block enemy entry at this point.
The monk was human, not dwarf. Typo. I'll repost here for discussion and comparison (and also because it needs clean up. That is what I get for adjusting someone elses template rather than starting from scratch)
Yeah, I get that problem.
AC 22 without barkskin. Barkskin is 1 ki point for 100 minutes, which would take me to 26. In most groups, I would pass on the bracers and just get mage armor cast once a day, taking me to 28 and saving me 4k I could spend elsewhere.
But you are still depending on other people's buffs when you do. I've learned NOT to do that the hard way, myself!
26 compares to 25, 1 AC difference in favour of your monk isn't that huge. They have comparable AC, but the paladin can still self-heal giving him in effect way more HP, and more immunities, and comparable saves.
And you keep neglecting to mention your bonuses are only against the target of your smite.
I mention it quite often, actually, and the paladin gets another +1 from haste when he uses his boots. Of course haste is a common buff, there are good odds it'll be cast on the whole party, but the boots mean my paladin has it when he wants it, not when somebody else chooses to give it to him.
You are correct that 50 movement isn't slow. But your movement is 20 unless you are using one of your 10 rounds of haste to move to position, you are burning that round as one you don't have for an additional full attack. Meanwhile the monk moves at 60, period. Hell, the monk can go 80 if it burns a Ki. And throw a stunning fist on the end 10 times a day.
As I say above, haste is a common buff, in some combats it's going to be cast on the whole party right at the outset, so I don't need to use those boots all the time to get the benefit. On the flip side your monk's high DPR comes from assuming haste and burning ki on an extra attack, without them the paladin matches or surpasses your DPR without haste or smite. Also, your monk has less ki available than the paladin has rounds of haste (he burns one on barkskin, needs to retain one to maintain ki-strike, that leaves him 8). Basically, your monk has +10' movement, and will run out of ki before the paladin runs out of uses of haste.
You're monk is a little faster, but is scraping the barrel to not-quite-keep-up on every other field.
As for stunning fist, it's too unreliable to depend upon. At 10th level, a one-in-ten success rate with it is normal. It's great when it happens, but it doesn't happen in the fights that count very often.
And while you have access to spells, how many spells do you have and what do they do? Add to that you take full ACP and only get 2 skill points a level.
Yep, the paladin is skills-starved, I do not disagree. On the flip side he has 3 x 1st level spells, 2 x 2nd level spells, 1 x 3rd level spell. For Dick I took:Dispel Magic to debuff enemies, Resist Energy to compensate for lack of evasion, Weapon of Awe for a little damage boost, Restoration, Lesser in case we encounter incorporeal life-sucking nasties, Grace for added mobility, and Hero's Defiance so I get a self-only lay-on-hands if the paladin is taken below 0 hp.
I could take other options for spells depending on the occasion and the foe, or to assist the rest of the party. On top of that, the paladin grants the rest of the party +4 on saves against fear and charm spells.
In short, the paladin brings more to the party than the monk does. He matches the monk in defences, is better in attack, is nearly as mobile when he needs to be, and has as much versatility - not the same versatility, true, but every bit as valuable if not more so to the rest of the party.
Looking back, I probably should have downgraded to AoMF +1 since I get the DR naturally, and then gotten an ioun stone to boost attack and gotten my monk robe back as well as adding a better ranged option. But either way, your Paladin isn't particularly blowing any of the posted monks away, which was the claim.
He does more DPR than a DPR oriented monk and can match their defences, THAT was the challenge as I understood it, and it holds up against your monk, definitely. You have slightly more AC, but the paladin has self-healing to negate that advantage, equal saves, self-buffs, and more immunities.
I was with you in the old thread Dabbler, I'm not seeing it in this one with the fixes that were implemented. Your Paladin is fine, my monk is fine, Lemmy's 10th level companions are fine. All have strengths, all have weaknesses, all could be great parts of a party and would struggle solo.
Which is exactly what is supposed to happen.
But the complaint is not "You cannot make a decent monk", it's that "you cannot make a decent monk without a lot of effort, and even then it doesn't bring as much to the party as another class can with less effort" - and that still holds true. If anything this underlines it.
the paladin has a 50 ft movement because of his mount. typically a horse.
To clarify, in case you have not read the stat-block (and I often don't), my paladin has boots of speed. On top of that, haste buffs are assumed in some of the DPR calculations, and that's +30' movement without any expenditure of resources to everyone except the monk.
Most dungeons are still made for medium sized creatures at level 4. You may fight a large monster occasionally, but it is not common until later levels.the paladin has a 50 ft movement because of his mount. typically a horse.
before you say you cannot fit a horse in most dungeons.
let me point out, that by level 4, you end up beginning to face larger foes and thus dungeon spaces become larger to accommodate.
any space that can accommodate a giant, can accommodate a horse
level 2-4 is when you start facing your first Ogre and/or Ettin, depending on how your DM judges CR and such factors as size. they occur more at 4 than they do at 2.
oh wait, Ogres and Ettins are to be considered easy challenges at level 4. and they deal enough damage to shake up a level 4-5 party's resources.
i'm not saying that they are the bulk of an encounter
but any dungeon large enough to fit one Ogre or Ettin, is large enough to fit a horse.
oh wait, paladin doesn't get a horse until level 5, and a cavalier's horse is ignored until that level.
not saying you can fit multiple horses next to each other, but one mounted knight makes an easy way to block enemy entry at this point.
Actually most medium sized dungeons can fit a large sized creature anyway. Some even have double doors which give a 10 foot path.
Being able to fit is still not an issue because a large creature can squeeze so it is not about fitting. It is about being about to maneuver effectively.
A large creature take up the same amount of space as 4 medium sized creatures. Then you have to account for the rest of the party, and any enemies. Unless that room is big having room to move like you want the big creature to be able to won't be easy. I had to deal with that in CoT and I was well above level 4 by the time my companion was large.
My point was that they(large enemies) are not common at level 4. I did not say they were not available.
But wasn't the issue that monks can't do damage? These monks are pretty awesome!
I mean granted the paladin does more while smiting...but isn't that true against most martials? I've even stolen LoreKeepers monk .
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the paladin has a 50 ft movement because of his mount. typically a horse.To clarify, in case you have not read the stat-block (and I often don't), my paladin has boots of speed. On top of that, haste buffs are assumed in some of the DPR calculations, and that's +30' movement without any expenditure of resources to everyone except the monk.
As does my monk (which is how I can get 6 attacks). And the monk can cast barkskin and can self heal.
You need to use haste every round you want 50 movement. I only need to use it on the rounds I flurry. You will burn your haste twice as fast.
It didn't take a lot of effort, Dabbler. It used to, and it still isn't a beginner class, but there are a lot of options now, which means depending on how the party sorts out you can build a monk to fit with the party and fill a role.
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But wasn't the issue that monks can't do damage? These monks are pretty awesome!
I mean granted the paladin does more while smiting...but isn't that true against most martials? I've even stolen LoreKeepers monk .
Historically the monk has had a problem hitting (flurry of misses), and with low damage per hit meaning when dealing with anything with DR, you were hosed.
This has been somewhat addressed. Are they still generally behind the martial classes for damage? Yes. And they should be, given the other features they get.
But I don't think you can just ignore the monk at this point.
As does my monk (which is how I can get 6 attacks). And the monk can cast barkskin and can self heal.the paladin has a 50 ft movement because of his mount. typically a horse.To clarify, in case you have not read the stat-block (and I often don't), my paladin has boots of speed. On top of that, haste buffs are assumed in some of the DPR calculations, and that's +30' movement without any expenditure of resources to everyone except the monk.
The monk's self-healing is laughable compared to the paladin's. He self-heals as a standard action hit points equal to his level (10) and in doing so depletes 2 points of ki-pool from which your bonus AC and attacks and other abilities like barkskin must be drawn, while the paladin self-heals 5d6+conditions as a swift action and has 8 uses of this (or 4 channels, granted, but they heal everyone or harm undead) completely separate from his smite and spells.
You need to use haste every round you want 50 movement. I only need to use it on the rounds I flurry. You will burn your haste twice as fast.
Sorry, can you explain this to me, because as I see it the paladin may need one shot of that 50' movement to close with an enemy maybe once in an encounter (although I could just use archery to make them come to me if they have a poor ranged option, which the monk cannot do), or not at all if the party caster has cast haste, whereas your monk needs the extra attack every round you are in combat to get that DPR up there (especially if the party caster does not cast haste), and he also needs ki-pool for barkskin and wholeness of body (if your statement above about healing means you'd actually take and use that ability)...and yet you are saying that the paladin will run out of uses of his boots of speed first?
No chance.
I think you are suffering a bad case of cognizant bias here, there's no way the paladin will run out of uses of his boots before the monk runs out of ki. I grant you these monks are pretty good, but even turning them up to the max a monk can deliver they still end up behind the curve.
It didn't take a lot of effort, Dabbler. It used to, and it still isn't a beginner class, but there are a lot of options now, which means depending on how the party sorts out you can build a monk to fit with the party and fill a role.
Which role, and can they bring more to the party than another class fulfilling the same role? (Hint: We asked this one before, remember?)
But wasn't the issue that monks can't do damage? These monks are pretty awesome!
I mean granted the paladin does more while smiting...but isn't that true against most martials? I've even stolen LoreKeepers monk .
No, the issue was not that monks cannot do damage. The issue was that in making a monk that can do damage you end up still doing less damage than a dedicated martial character, and you sacrifice too much to do so in your defences.
Yes these monks are better than I would have expected...but they are not hitting the same targets a martial class can hit, and very often hinge on some fairly fancy options. Great if this helps, don't get me wrong, but it isn't changing anything.
Lorekeeper's monk is the best example of a monk that can do both...except he's pulling a lot of tricks for it: the potions of mage armour have to be replenished regularly, and are easily dispelled; in his early career (before level 5-6) he has no agile amulet of mighty fists and with strength 8 he is going to need to be carried by the rest of the party. That means this monk has spent half his career contributing like a full-fledged member of the party (assuming he finds, or has made, the items he needs, which is not a given), and half of it as dead-weight the team has to carry, and that's not my idea of a good build.
Further, these DPR calculations are all based on AC24. OK, that's the average that a 10th level character can expect - but what happens when you are in a boss-fight at CR12-14? What happens if shock horror, the other guy buffs? What happens if they have DR you can't get past? For the other martials hitting at +24 to hit with damage modifiers of +20-30 this is not an issue (well no, it IS an issue, but it's not as BIG an issue: they can still hit regularly and do some damage). For the monk at +18 and a +10 damage modifier it is going to slash their DPR badly and those are the fights you need it the most.
[quote...the potions of mage armour have to be replenished regularly, ..
The idea was that these fights I am presenting are to make us account for our consumables. Otherwise my TWF ranger would have used his fly potion to run the witchfire down in that first combat. Hopefully he is tracking these.
The next fight will be the end of day 1.
Later we will have a day with more encounters, and a day with fights designed to bring down resources before the boss fight so hopefully nobody is assuming they can buy one ____, and it will always be available. If so make sure you have enough consumables for day 2 aka make one last change to your characters.
Also taking a horse means not having a bonded weapon.the paladin has a 50 ft movement because of his mount. typically a horse.
only if you choose the class feature that gives you a scaling horse.
a normal 2HD heavy warhorse is about 200 gold, and gives you the option for a bonded weapon.
the pally horse is squishy either way, so why not buy the 200GP one?
it is more expendable, and can be bought in mass.
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You need to use haste every round you want 50 movement. I only need to use it on the rounds I flurry. You will burn your haste twice as fast.Sorry, can you explain this to me, because as I see it the paladin may need one shot of that 50' movement to close with an enemy maybe once in an encounter (although I could just use archery to make them come to me if they have a poor ranged option, which the monk cannot do), or not at all if the party caster has cast haste, whereas your monk needs the extra attack every round you are in combat to get that DPR up there (especially if the party caster does not cast haste), and he also needs ki-pool for barkskin and wholeness of body (if your statement above about healing means you'd actually take and use that ability)...and yet you are saying that the paladin will run out of uses of his boots of speed first?
No chance.
The only time the monk needs to use one of it's 10 rounds of haste is if they are flurrying and they want 6 attacks rather than 5 (or 5 attacks rather than burning a ki)
You need to use it every time 20 feet isn't enough. Because your movement is 20 feet. With ACP. The monk moves literally 3 times as fast, which is why I went with spring attack.
Your bonuses only come against a single enemy, and it takes you a standard action to turn on Divine Bond. We both have boots of speed, but you actually need them for movement while the monk only needs them for an extra attack, if they happen to need 6 attacks.
The Paladin is fine, it will do really well in this type of single evil enemy combat, which is it's bread and butter. But I don't think it is better than the monks posted, particularly in a party that cares about mobility or stealth.
I think you are trying to sell the monk as still so weak it needs more boosts and while you were correct in the past it appears the tweaks they made were more impressive than I thought with regards to the unarmed monk.
These monks would be welcome in any party I have played in, and frankly mine isn't even that well built.
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Also taking a horse means not having a bonded weapon.the paladin has a 50 ft movement because of his mount. typically a horse.
only if you choose the class feature that gives you a scaling horse.
a normal 2HD heavy warhorse is about 200 gold, and gives you the option for a bonded weapon.
the pally horse is squishy either way, so why not buy the 200GP one?
it is more expendable, and can be bought in mass.
A 2HD horse? With 15 hit points and 11 AC?
Good thing the Paladin has all those skill points to invest in ride. Not to mention the acrobatics checks when you are riding something with 15 hitpoints against 10 CR enemies and they hit it and you fall off the horse.
Not to mention the +1 will save.
How about the Paladin has 20 movement, which can be boosted by burning one of the 10 rounds of the boots of haste they wear up to 10 less than the monk moves normally.
Which is fine, because the Paladin has lots of good features. Mobility is not one of them.
I missed the majority of this thread so I do not know what people is talking about, but, how the paladin make all those horses to follow him to a dungeon? It seems inviable to me.
I would certainly hope the mount gifted from the divines happens to be willing to follow me to danger. That said, usually you combat train animals you bring with you into battle. Its in the handle animal/ride sections how to deal with it. The Narrow Frame feat helps a little bit with maneuverability in dungeons, but once you get inside a dungeon the rooms have a habit of being so small you don't really need to charge anyway.
Well, of course. Your bounded mount, or a trained mount. But lumiere said the horses can be bought in mass. I do not see a paladin with 10 horses around it in the middle of a dungeon as something viable.
Ideally you wouldn't drag 10 horses into a dungeon... 1 and 9 backups back at the stable/camp with your groomer ranger you hired is much more viable however. Alternatively, you can be like some of the crazier people I've played with and use farm animals to check for traps. Chickens are pretty cheap you know.
I agree. But if the horse Die in the first combat of the dungeon then the argument of the 50 ft mobility is not that good.Well, of course. Your bounded mount, or a trained mount. But lumiere said the horses can be bought in mass. I do not see a paladin with 10 horses around it in the middle of a dungeon as something viable.Ideally you wouldn't drag 10 horses into a dungeon... 1 and 9 backups back at the stable/camp with your groomer ranger you hired is much more viable however. Alternatively, you can be like some of the crazier people I've played with and use farm animals to check for traps. Chickens are pretty cheap you know.
bonded horses die fast too.
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I missed the majority of this thread so I do not know what people is talking about, but, how the paladin make all those horses to follow him to a dungeon? It seems inviable to me.I would certainly hope the mount gifted from the divines happens to be willing to follow me to danger. That said, usually you combat train animals you bring with you into battle. Its in the handle animal/ride sections how to deal with it. The Narrow Frame feat helps a little bit with maneuverability in dungeons, but once you get inside a dungeon the rooms have a habit of being so small you don't really need to charge anyway.
You are out of you element, Donny.
vladimer ilyich!
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Well, of course. Your bounded mount, or a trained mount. But lumiere said the horses can be bought in mass. I do not see a paladin with 10 horses around it in the middle of a dungeon as something viable.Ideally you wouldn't drag 10 horses into a dungeon... 1 and 9 backups back at the stable/camp with your groomer ranger you hired is much more viable however. Alternatively, you can be like some of the crazier people I've played with and use farm animals to check for traps. Chickens are pretty cheap you know.
So to sum up, 2000g of your WBL is in 15 hp 11 ac horses, plus a fee for the groomer you hired, plus the two skill points you do have are invested in Ride (which is hurt by your ACP) and Handle Animal...
I don't think that would be a good plan for the Build Dabbler posted...
Although as to the farm animals, I was in a party that found a bag of tricks. We were in a weird rotating room with various traps down various halls, and the chaotic neutral wizard used the bag to send various animals down the halls to set off the traps...GM did not see that coming :)
On topic, Dabbler's Paladin is very good at what it does and not so great at mobility, stealth, etc...
It is on par with the posted monks, better for some parties, worse for others.
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I agree. But if the horse Die in the first combat of the dungeon then the argument of the 50 ft mobility is not that good.Well, of course. Your bounded mount, or a trained mount. But lumiere said the horses can be bought in mass. I do not see a paladin with 10 horses around it in the middle of a dungeon as something viable.Ideally you wouldn't drag 10 horses into a dungeon... 1 and 9 backups back at the stable/camp with your groomer ranger you hired is much more viable however. Alternatively, you can be like some of the crazier people I've played with and use farm animals to check for traps. Chickens are pretty cheap you know.
Die and then leave you prone in front of the thing that killed your horse (and probably has more attacks because you are 10th level and it has an 11 AC and 15 hit points...)
More realistically the Paladin has 20 movement, which 10 times a day can be boosted by Haste. Which is fine, but it is less than having 60 movement all day, all the time. With no ACP.
After besting or running from the Bebilith our heroes decide its time to rest. They have had enough fights for one day, but they chose a bad place to rest, and when most of them are sleep an enemy approaches in the blackness of the night.
What have here is Greater Shadow CR 8. It is incorporeal. It flies(speed 40), and right now it has a stealth modifier of 24, and an initiative of +5.
Greater Shadow
CR 8
XP 4,800
CE Medium undead (incorporeal)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +13
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 12 (+2 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 58 (9d8+18)
Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +7
Defensive Abilities incorporeal, channel resistance +2; Immune undead traits
OFFENSE
Speed fly 40 ft. (good)
Melee incorporeal touch +11 (1d8 Strength)
Special Attacks create spawn (as per shadow), strength damage
STATISTICS
Str —, Dex 20, Con —, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 15
Base Atk +6; CMB +11; CMD 24
Feats Dodge, Flyby Attack, Mobility, Skill Focus (Perception, Stealth)
Skills Fly +15, Perception +13, Stealth +20 (+24 in dim light, +16 in bright light); Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth in dim light (–4 in bright light)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Strength Damage (Su)
A greater shadow's touch deals 1d8 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.
I think my ranger had the highest perception and once I run him through this I expect for him to get jumped also. The monk with his high touch AC should be able to force it to flee, but if not then it will just go for an easier target.
Last fight of day 1.
The only time the monk needs to use one of it's 10 rounds of haste is if they are flurrying and they want 6 attacks rather than 5 (or 5 attacks rather than burning a ki)
You need to use it every time 20 feet isn't enough. Because your movement is 20 feet. With ACP. The monk moves literally 3 times as fast, which is why I went with spring attack.
But how often is 20' not enough, especially when you have a good ranged option? Not very often, in my experience. Fast movement only matters in two circumstances: Either the party has become too strung out (rare, especially in a dungeon), or you need to close with a foe that has better ranged attacks than the party (also rare, unless you deliberately skimp on them).
Your bonuses only come against a single enemy, and it takes you a standard action to turn on Divine Bond. We both have boots of speed, but you actually need them for movement while the monk only needs them for an extra attack, if they happen to need 6 attacks.
Well it takes a standard action to do most buffs, does it not? Isn't that the logic behind most self-buffing monks (although not yours, I agree). Once activated divine bond lasts ten minutes, so it's not like you need to wait for the fight to start, and you cannot dispel it.
I agree, the paladin needs them boots for for fast movement (should he need it at all) as well as extra attacks. The monk needs his ki for a lot more. And yes, your monk has boots of speed also, and I agree he is more likely to have a haste action available than the paladin if a caster in the party isn't going to caste haste (and how often does that happen?).
Further, while the monk is faster, if he needs to use his Acrobatics to avoid AoOs he loses movement. The paladin doesn't need to worry about that, he casts grace as a swift action and he can't be AoO'd. So if he only needs to use that speed once a day to close with an enemy he gets to do it better than the monk. Sad, really.
The Paladin is fine, it will do really well in this type of single evil enemy combat, which is it's bread and butter. But I don't think it is better than the monks posted, particularly in a party that cares about mobility or stealth.
He brings more to the party, in real terms. He buffs them just by his presence, he can heal them, he has spells, and he can tank and deal out substantial damage even when not smiting.
Your monk brings skills and movement, and can deal substantive dammage as long as the target AC is not too high and doesn't have DR/alignment.
I think you are trying to sell the monk as still so weak it needs more boosts and while you were correct in the past it appears the tweaks they made were more impressive than I thought with regards to the unarmed...
I'm not trying to sell anything, these monks are similar to those I have played in real games and found to be relatively ineffective in boss-fights.
Try your monk's DPR vs AC30 and DR 10/good. Even assuming haste and ki, your monk's DPR slumps to 30.25 and he's only dealing significant damage on a critical hit. The paladin without smiting can deal 38.28 using a few of his other advantages. With it, he's dishing 98.8. The fighter I made, without haste, deals 37.92, and if the party caster should cast haste it goes way up to near double the monk's output. Bear in mind, this is on top of roughly equal AC, and better hit points.
The monk's best chance to hit is +18, with the fighter and paladin it's around +25. That's still a huge weakness, as is the lack of ability to get past DR vs any alignment but lawful (if you went for the agile amulet you never will get past it).
It is on par with the posted monks, better for some parties, worse for others.
If the party has no stealthy character (like a ranger or rogue), and really needs somebody who can run really fast, the monk is a better option. Otherwise, paladin. End of.
More realistically the Paladin has 20 movement, which 10 times a day can be boosted by Haste. Which is fine, but it is less than having 60 movement all day, all the time. With no ACP.
You are making a big thing about lack of ACP, and having fast movement, but just how useful to the party IS all that mobility, especially if it already has a skills character? At 10th level, one spell trumps all the monk's mobility: fly. I'm not denying that the monk's ability to move fast or stealthily comes in handy now and then, but it's not vastly important or every party would need a monk, and I haven't heard any complaints of "Our party failed because we didn't have a monk!"
Paladin - Bonded Mount v. Bonded Weapon
I currently have an 11th level paladin in Kingmaker that I've played up from 1st. I went with a bonded mount at 5th level, and have loved it! I know my DPR could be higher with a bonded weapon, but I'm not sure my DPF (Damage Per Fight) would go up. Mobility plays a part in that, as does the bonus from using a lance and/or Spirited Charge, but the biggest reason is action economics.
Activating a bonded weapon takes a standard action, while a mount is presumably being ridden at the beginning of combat. With 50' of movement available and only swift-action buffs in the queue, even during a surprise round I'm usually able to charge an enemy and deal significant damage. So, rather than occasionally spending a round preparing a bonded weapon, my bonded mount occasionally saves me a round of approach.
There's a decent argument that says, "You can't use your mount in every fight." However, a bonded weapon can only be used a few times per day (1 at 5th level, 2 at 9th, 3 at 13th), which is similarly limiting. Depending on level and campaign, there's a reasonable argument either way about which divine bond can be brought to bear more often.
Mount Durability
A bonded mount is weaker than a PC, but if built for durability can be more resilient than some party members. They have natural armor, easily wear light armor, evasion, high constitution scores, and qualify for Toughness. They don't have strong will saves, but benefit from Devotion and are always within the paladin's Aura of Courage and Aura of Resolve. Share Spells and Shield Other can help if needed, as well.
A mount is also less likely to be targeted by enemies. First, within the game, because it is less of a threat than a PC, removing it from combat is unlikely to save an enemy from getting its but kicked. (It's highly unlikely that a mount can be one-shotted by many enemies, or it might make a better target.) Second, metagame, because most GMs prefer to threaten a PC than NPCs or equipment. If you have a GM who is dead set on killing your mount (or sundering your magic items, or stealing your spellbooks) there's not much you can do to stop it, so just like a campaign that takes place entirely in narrow tunnels, not every game is appropriate for a mount.
Bebilith fight…
+16 stealth means Spiney won’t see it. Gyr would. Initiative means it would go first.
Surprise
Gyr casts Beast Shape 3 on Spiney to make him an Allosaurus.
Round 1
Spiney is down at -2hp. The rot is what really gets him. Each rot is 23% of his max HP.
Spiney dies if he takes the initial ambush and subsequent attacks. If he had been able to get a full-attack off, he would have done 35.7 damage/round average after DR. 65.7 without DR. And more if he had been able to pounce. Additionally he could have grab/grappled the bebilith with decent success rate to assist the rest of the party fighting. Same DPR while grappling.
I'll be away for a while, since my home internet is off -.-'
I'll run the bebilith encounter, and whatever else is posted for Mork and 2HR, maybe for the MoMS Ranger too...
Also, I suggest next encounter involves multiple opponents... Let's say, 2 CR 8 creatures. Preferably a melee tank and a support.
Also, a Ranged enemy with more than 1 attack per round would be nice.
Might as well do the Greater Shadow now too. Gyr will spot it, Spiney won’t.
Surprise!
Gyr’s Turn: Casts beast shape 3 on spiney, for allosaurus, and free action handles spiney to ready a bite at that shade thing.
Round 1
Spine: Readies an action to bite the shadow next time it comes out.
Round 2
Spiney gets to bite at the shadow with the shadow having cover in the ground. This gives the shadow AC 22. 65% chance to hit, and average of 12.9675 damage. CMB is at +22, vs the shadows 24. If the bite hits 90% the shadow is grabbed and Spiney can move it to an adjacent space no longer in cover.(Spiney has a ghost touch AoMF).
Shadow can now finish its attack. Both are at -2 attack and -4 dex for grappled, so same chances, 95% chance of hit, and 4.725 more str damage. This adds up to -7 on str stuff for Spiney.
Round 3
Shadow can try to escape the pin. 5% chance of success.
At this point, Spiney will continue maintaining the grapple, averaging 47.809 damage a round. This kills the shadow.
Spiney escapes with 14 points of strength damage.
An interesting thing about shadows, they have create spawn, which states:
"A humanoid creature killed by a shadow's Strength damage becomes a shadow under the control of its killer in 1d4 rounds."
If you look at the glossary, for ability score damage, penalty and drain, you get:
"For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration."
So RAW, you can never die from strength damage, and so shadows never create spawn.
I'll be away for a while, since my home internet is off -.-'
I'll run the bebilith encounter, and whatever else is posted for Mork and 2HR, maybe for the MoMS Ranger too...
Also, I suggest next encounter involves multiple opponents... Let's say, 2 CR 8 creatures. Preferably a melee tank and a support.
Also, a Ranged enemy with more than 1 attack per round would be nice.
I have a multi-creature encounter planned for day 2. :)
I also still need to do the shadow fight. It should be done tomorrow.
Might as well do the Greater Shadow now too. Gyr will spot it, Spiney won’t.
Surprise!** spoiler omitted **
Round 1** spoiler omitted **
Round 2** spoiler omitted **
Round 3** spoiler omitted **
At this point, Spiney will continue maintaining the grapple, averaging 47.809 damage a round. This kills the shadow.
Spiney escapes with 14 points of strength damage.So RAW, you can never die from strength damage, and so shadows never create spawn..
I have always seen the shadow as an exception to the rules about strength killing you since it did not kill you in 3.5. To be more specific strength drain did not even kill in 3.5, but a shadow's strength damage could.
Strength Damage (Su)
The touch of a shadow deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living foe. A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies. This is a negative energy effect.
A shadow's touch deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.
Hmm, is it too late to submit characters to the proving ground? (I might need some help calculating DPR as well, as I've never actually done it, some optimizer I am). If so, I wouldn't mind putting forth the following two builds (Details to follow):
Human Mnk3/Drd7
Way of the Angry Bear
and
Aasimar Clr1/Mnk3/Pal2/Champion of Irori 4
Irori's Champion
prototype00
Feel free to run your characters through the encounters, prototype.
Also, you reminded me that I have a 10th level Aasimar Champion of Irori build posted in my build thread... I should check it and see if it would make a good contender here.
So, what are the requirement to run a character through the encounters?
Create a 10th level character, preferably a Monk or Monk-flavored build, then run it against the enemies wraithstrike posted. (you can post your build here or in any other thread, in which case, just provide a link to it)
- Your opponent is as intelligent as its stat block says. It will use every resource it has.
- Each fight happens 10~30min after the last one. (This means some buffs can possibly last 2~3 fights)
- Your character fights alone, although a party may be assumed in critical cases (e.g.: I assumed the party wizard casts Glitterdust or some such on the witchfire because otherwise, it'll simply use his at-will invisibility to hit-and-run and eventually kill our martial builds)
- Your character is fully healed after each fight, then we compare which resources she costs to your party. (This is made easier if you post his remaining hp after the fight - e.g.: 36,3 hp left out of 78)
- Since we're using average DPR to calculate damage, assume hit points can use fractions. (e.g.: "I have 34.6 hp left")
- Unlike the build thread, these characters don't seem too worried about surviving 'til 10th level, so it doesn't really matter if your character will be really weak at 4th level, but you must be able grow your build "organically" (i.e.: level by level). Don't use your 10th level BAB/skills/attributes to see if you qualify for your 1st level feats.
- Don't feel bad if the Witchfire kills your character. That thing screwed all of us so far... -.-'
At least, this is what seems to be the ruleset we're using so far...
So, I got bored and decided to see how a Roc animal companion would fair in comparison to the Spinosaurus strength monster I made earlier (who actually didn't do so well).
The Roc (Dwayne) is something any druid could take, and you don't need the animal(feather) domain to get fly, since it already can. As such, I am also going to not use the human eye for talent racial ability, so this roc is comparative to what any druid at all could pick up.
As for Gyr, pretend he is just an animal companion druid, and took 3xAnimal growth at 5th level for this companion. I really just wanted to see if its worth giving up one of the best mounts for a few points of strength. Also assume Gyr is wildshaping another Roc to stay next to Dwayne for purposes of touch spells. (A better strategy would be to wildshape a small something, and ride Dwayne, and take mounted combat to negate hits... but that is another build).
Introducing, Dwayne (The Roc)
Large
Languages: Common
HP: 58
Init: +5
Attributes:
Str 28 +9
Dex 20 +5
Con 13 +1
Int 3 -4
Wis 13 +1
Cha 11 +0
Defense:
AC: 32
Touch: 14
Flat Foot: 27
Fort: 7
Ref: 11
Wil: 6(10 vs enchantment)
Attack:
Melee: +14 Talon 1d6+9+Grab;+14 Talon 1d6+9+Grab;+14 Bite 1d8+9
CMB: 16(24 grab+grapple)
CMD: 31
Feats:
Toughness
Iron Will
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Greater Grapple
Skills:
Fly: +15
Linguistics: -3 (1 rank)
Equipment: Belt of Giant's Strength +4
AoMF (Ghost Touch)
Mithral Chain Shirt
And, for ease of reference, Dwayne, when he as been Animal Growthed:
Large
Languages: Common
HP: 76
Init: +4
Attributes:
Str 36 +13
Dex 18 +4
Con 17 +3
Int 3 -4
Wis 13 +1
Cha 11 +0
Defense:
AC: 32
Touch: 12
Flat Foot: 28
Fort: 9
Ref: 10
Wil: 6(10 vs enchantment)
Attack:
Melee: +17 Talon 1d8+13+Grab;+17 Talon 1d8+13+Grab;+17 Bite 2d6
CMB: 21(29 grab+grapple)
CMD: 35
Feats:
Toughness
Iron Will
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Greater Grapple
Skills:
Fly: +13
Linguistics: -3 (1 rank)
Equipment: Belt of Giant's Strength +4
AoMF (Ghost Touch)
Mithral Chain Shirt
Ok, quick re-run of previous combats with Dwayne.
Witchfire:
She gets surprise, Ranged touch for 27.93 damage and sickened.
Round 1, she goes again, 41.895 additional damage. Dwayne is bleeding out, but not quite dead. No surprise here.
Dire Croc:
First off, Dwayne could fly party members over one at a time, and completely ignore the Croc.
If they have to fight:
Round 1: Dwayne goes first, delays for Gyr to buff him.
Croc: Can't reach a flying creature, would go after a different party member.
Gyr: Casts animal growth on Dwayne. Handle to tell Dwayne to stay flying for more buffs, or if croc is engaged with another party member, attack.
Round 2: Croc: Still can't reach, attacks a different party member.
Gyr: Barkskin on Dwayne. +4 ac. Handle to have Dwayne wait.
Round 3: Croc: Still can't reach, attacks a different party member.
Gyr: Casts Freedom of Movement on Dwayne.
Dwayne, flies down and croc gets AoO for moving in.
Average of 5.81625 damage. Grab is irrelevant, since Dwayne has FoM.
Dwayne still has his standard action. He attempts to grapple. Grab attempt at +25(Croc is bigger so he can't grab) to the Croc's 36. 45% chance of success.
Round 3: Croc: Realizing it can't grapple, makes a full-attack. Average's 5.5575 damage.
Dwayne: Full attack. Average 52.4475 damage.
This repeats for 2 more rounds, Dwayne takes a total of 22.48875 damage.
Bebilith:
Gyr can spot the Bebilith, Dwayne cannot.
Surprise: Bebilith can Web at Dwayne, or attack a different party member. Web has a 5% chance of hitting.
Round 1: Dwayne delays for buffs.
Bebilith can throw another web, or attack a different party member.
Gyr casts Animal Growth on Dwayne.
Round 2: Gyr puts another barkskin on dwayne for +4 ac.
Dwayne charges in with a talon. Equal reach with the Bebilith, so no AOO this time. 95% chance to hit, and 7.955 average damage. Grab check is at +29 vs 34. 75% chance of success. Assume Bebilith is grappled.
Bebilith: Full attack back. Average damage 9.52. 20% chance of bite hitting. 4% chance of both claws. 0.26 average Con damage.
Round 3: Dwayne maintains his grapple, +34 vs 34 on the Bebilith. 95% chance to pin. Grab lets him do talon damage anyway. Another 7.955 damage. Greater grapple lets him maintain again as a move action. Another 7.955 damage from grab, plus natural weapon attack (bite) for 9.95. Total damage to bebilith is 33.815 at this point, including DR.
Round 4 and on: Maintain twice per round as move actions. Bebilith is at +23 vs 39 to escape. If she does escape, she will get re-grappled on the next round. Party finishes her off.
Last, but not least, the Greater Shadow:
Gyr doesn't see it, neither does Dwayne.
Surprise: Both Gyr and Dwayne are flying, so it can rush out and charge them in the surprise round. Average 4.2525 str damage.
Round 1: Dwayne and the Shadow tie. Shadow can do another 4.2525 then try to move away provoking AoO from a talon and grab, (95% chance of success and 6.615 damage) or if Dwayne goes first, full-attack. 27.72 damage and grab.
Gyr casts animal growth on Dwayne.
Round 2: Shadow can touch again, for another 4.2525 str damage. Or try to break the grapple (it won't).
Dwayne move action to Pin: 23 vs the shadow 24. Average damage of 6.2475 from the grab. Move action to damage with bite. Average of 9.47625 damage.
Repeat grapple/pin until shadow is dead. Total strength damage taken by Dwayne, 12.7575.
So without preamble, here is Way of the Angry Bear
Human (Tian-Shu) Druid (Menhir Savant) 7 Monk (Master of Many Styles) 3
LN Huge Humanoid (human)
Init +0; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +17
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 28, touch 16, flat-footed 27 (+2 armor, -2 size, +10 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 70 (10d8+17)
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +14; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +4 vs. spell-like and supernatural abilities of Fey and against effects that target plants, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee Bite (Beast Shape III - Allosaurus) +17 (4d6+12/x2) and
Claw x2 (Beast Shape III - Allosaurus) +17 x2 (3d6+12/x2) and
Rake (2 claws) (Beast Shape III - Allosaurus) +15 (3d6+10/x2) and
Unarmed strike +17/+12 (6d8+18/x2)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks pounce
Druid Spells Prepared (CL 10):
4 (2/day) Aspect of the Stag, Strong Jaw (x2) (DC 18)
3 (3/day) Haste, Magic Fang, Greater (x3)
2 (4/day) Barkskin (x2), Flaming Sphere (DC 16), Animal Aspect, Chameleon Stride
1 (5/day) Longstrider, Produce Flame (x2), Entangle (x2) (DC 15), Mount
0 (at will) Read Magic, Create Water, Detect Magic, Mending
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 30, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +20; CMD 37
Feats Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Dragon Ferocity +5, 1d4+10 rds, Dragon Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Legacy (+3), Natural Spell, Shaping Focus +3, Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 19)
Traits Magical Knack (Druid), Quain Martial Artist
Skills Acrobatics +13 (+25 jump), Fly +3, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (planes) +5, Perception +17, Perform (dance) +5, Sense Motive +10, Stealth -8, Survival +17
Languages Common, Druidic, Tien
SQ ac bonus +6, fast movement (+10'), fuse style (2 styles), ghost touch, maneuver training, migrating herd, nature bond abilities (plains), place magic (7/day), pounce (1/day), resist nature's lure, spirit sense, spontaneous casting, stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike (1d10), wild shape (4/day), wild shape (animal), wild shape (elemental), wild shape (plant)
Combat Gear Extend metamagic rod (lesser) (3/day); Other Gear Belt of giant strength +4, Bracers of armor +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Monk's robe, Ring of protection +1, Terminus Est (Ghost Touch AoMF), 150 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Dragon Ferocity +5, 1d4+10 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Druid Domain (Plains) Granted Powers: The wide open spaces of the prairie, savanna, and steppe are yours to master.
Domain Spells: 1st - mount, 2nd - chameleon stride**, 3rd - haste, 4th - aspect of the stag**, 5th - control
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Extend metamagic rod (lesser) (3/day) Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).
The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are extended as though using the Extend Spell feat. Lesser metamagic rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower.
Construction
Requirements: Craft Rod, Extend Spell feat; Cost 1,500 gp
Fast Movement (+10') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Ghost touch Full damage against incorporeal creatures.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Knack (Druid) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Migrating Herd (Su) Summoned herd animals gain +10' speed and double their spell's duration.
Natural Spell You can cast spells while in Wild Shape.
Place Magic (7/day) (Su) Free, +1 to caster level for 1 round.
Pounce (1/day) (Ex) You may make a full attack as part of a charge.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Resist Nature's Lure (Ex) +4 save vs. effects from Fey and effects using plants.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Spirit Sense (Sp) As det. undead, also fey, outsider, astral/ethereal/incorporeal simultaneously.
Spontaneous Casting The Druid can convert stored spells into Summon Nature's Ally spells.
Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist.
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wild Shape (4/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Wild Shape (Beast Shape III: Diminutive - Huge animal) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an animal.
Wild Shape (Elemental Body III: Small - Large elemental) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become an elemental.
Wild Shape (Plant Shape II: Small - Large plant creature) You may use your Wild Shape ability to become a plant creature.
The TL:DR is as follows:
AC: 28, 16 touch, 27 flat footed (With Crane style and fighting defensively, 32, 20, 31 and negate first hit)
HP: 70 (Ouchie)
To hit (Full Attack with Greater Magic Fang cast on unarmed strike, Bite and claws for a +2 to hit and damage and Strong Jaw running with a 10 min duration): +17(6d8+23)/+12(6d8+18) Unarmed strikes, +12 (4d6 +7) Bite, +12 (2d6+7) 2 Claws (-2 to everything if fighting defensively)
Saves: +11 Fort, +7 Ref, +14 Will
prototype00
The Witchfire vs Way of the Angry Bear
Round 1: The Witchfire might not get surprise due to the Spirit Sense Class Feature of the Menhir Savant, but it requires concentration, so presumably it does.
So 27.93 damage from 60ft away (flat footed and touch AC is 15, basically autosucceed for the Witchfire) and save against witchfire effect.
+14 will save vs +22 DC 65% chance of success, good odds. So lets go with not sickened for now.
Round 2: Witchfire goes again (+10 init vs +0 init for Way of the Angry Bear), touch AC now is 16, so Witchfire hits for another 27.93 damage (Ha ha! Way of the Angry Bear has taken 56 damage so far a good 80%) And doesn't move away, easy fight for it so far and it wants to keep in range.
Way of the angry bear (saves again?). Crosses the 60ft distance in allosaurus form and engages in melee.
V.s. AC 24, Way of the Angry Bear has a DPR of 81.75, No miss chance due to the ghost touch AoMF. Witchfire has 33.25 HP left)
Round 3:Witchfire knows that it is screwed, and turns invisible and flies away. Druids have no way to see invisible, and witchfire doesn't want to risk getting hit again (hit with primary Unarmed strike, DPR = 35.25, will kill it instantly).
Result: Victory (Though as I'm new to this, I probably missed something, so please point out my miscalculations and I would be most grateful)
Way of the Angry Bear has 14.14 HP left, Witchfire has 33.25.
prototype00
Edit: Also , would like to say that margin is razor thin. Witchfire gives up because it basically would be killed if it stays for another round. (Though now that I think about it, it could probably kill Way if it went first and witchfired him, but if it doesn't go first, it dies and it knows that.)
I'm basically just thinking in term of intelligent monster behaviour rather than deathmatch.
The Witchfire vs Way of the Angry Bear
** spoiler omitted **
Result: Victory (Though as I'm new to this, I probably missed something, so please point out my miscalculations and I would be most grateful)
Way of the Angry Bear has 14.14 HP left, Witchfire has 33.25.
prototype00
Edit: Also , would like to say that margin is razor thin. Witchfire gives up because it basically would be killed if it stays for another round. (Though now that I think about it, it could probably kill Way if it went first and witchfired him, but if it doesn't go first, it dies and it knows that.)
I'm basically just thinking in term of intelligent monster behaviour rather than deathmatch.
The witchfire's ranged attack is against touch AC. I wonder if I ever made a thread so Paizo could fix that. Incorporeal creatures can't make attacks against normal AC. They just forgot to put list it as a ranged touch attack. If not for the fact that it was targeting touch AC the witchfire would have lost to the others.
I was fighting it as if it was ranged touch, no worries. If the fight happened in a no charging environment, it goes immediately to the Witchfire, because Way of the Angry Bear can't pounce.
At best he can move up and use his primary unarmed strike (defensively), activate crane style and parry melee touch attacks from that point on (hopefully witchfire is afraid to move out of melee range due to the grab on Way's bite). (Actually that strategy isn't half bad, lockdown and grapple)
prototype00
Yeah, upon giving it some thought, that's what I'll change it to. Walk up and bite, then grapple at CMB +24 (thanks to grab) vs it's CMD of +31, so basically I succeed on a 7 or better (70% chance of success).
The witchfire has a +13 CMB vs Way's CMD of +37, so basically it can't escape unless it rolls a 20. Game, set and match.
prototype00
Witchfire can fly. Unless you have a way to fly also, it can just hang out above you and ranged touch you to death. Also, I thought we weren't doing full caster (angry bear is a 7 druid).
Also, your "Terminus Est (Ghost Touch AoMF), 150 GP " should be 5,000gp.
Witchfire can fly. Unless you have a way to fly also, it can just hang out above you and ranged touch you to death. Also, I thought we weren't doing full caster (angry bear is a 7 druid).
Its not as optimal, but there are huge sized flying wildshape forms, Quetzelcoatlus for example. So at least the unarmed strike damage does not go down.
Were we not supposed to include casters? I didn't know that.
Also, your "Terminus Est (Ghost Touch AoMF), 150 GP " should be 5,000gp.
+1 Equivalent AoMF (AoMFs don't need +1 before adding enhancements) is 4k I thought (2x what an equivalent weapon would cost).
prototype00
Sorry, you're right, I thought they updated the PRD already. 4k. You listed 150gp. Still 3850 short.
Yes, there are huge sized flying forms. It is a problem if it is 60' directly above you. You have a +3 fly skill modifier. Huge gives you a -4. To fly up at greater than a 45º angle you need to make a DC 20 check. This means the witchfire is able to just stay above you, until you die.
Full casters are generally accepted to be better than a martial. I was doing a druid to compare specifically the animal companion itself only (with minor buffs) and not the entirety of the druid.