Jerrys. can you run a spreadsheet for bleeding rain against those foes with the assumption she starts 110 feet away and full attacks on her turn, consistently 5 foot stepping to full attack?
Mork - The Half-Orc Qinggong Monk...
Half-Orc (Mystic) Monk (Qinggong Monk) 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 19, flat-footed 19 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +12, Will +14; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +16/+11 (1d10+12/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +17/+17/+12/+12 (1d10+12/19-20/x2, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic
Spell-Like Abilities Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki), Restoration (self only, 2 Ki), Scorching Ray (2 Ki)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +7; CMB +16 (+18 Tripping); CMD 32 (34 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds, Dragon Style, Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa's Wrath, Power Attack -2/+4, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19), Toughness +10, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Quain Martial Artist, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +13 (+25 jump), Climb +10, Escape Artist +15, Perception +17, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +15, Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Orc
SQ ac bonus +6, fast movement (+30'), ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (1d10)
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly; Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +2, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +2), Bracers of armor +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +1, 400 GP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Medusa's Wrath Full attack: Add 2 unarmed strikes against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Restoration (self only, 2 Ki) (Sp) Self only. Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Scorching Ray (2 Ki) (Sp) Costs 2 ki points to activate.
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist.
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Man, Qinggong and Delisquecent Gloves go a long way to boost Monks... And yet... This guy still needs to spend his very limited Ki to have decent AC...
Well... At least his damage output is pretty good:
DPR targeting AC 24: 56.75
Spending Ki for an extra attack: 73,5
Power Attack actually hurts his DPR, unless he's buffed or his enemies have particularly low AC... -.-'
@jerrys:
That is very nice. I like it. Implementing additional levels accuracy (incorporating more special cases) would be nice; but I like the effort and the results. Kudos.
@Lemmy:
I think you might be missing something...
Special Attacks flurry of blows +8/+8/+3/+3
I know monks aren't the greatest, but at level 10, surely they can do better than that ;)
@Lemmy:
I think you might be missing something...
Special Attacks flurry of blows +8/+8/+3/+3I know monks aren't the greatest, but at level 10, surely they can do better than that ;)
Haha... That's just the pseudo-BAB from FoB, not the full attack bonus... ^^
I did add Str modifier, AoMF, WF and etc when calculating the DPR.Anyway, I just edited the build to make it easier to understand. lol
Also... I'm a bit underwhelmed by the save bonuses of most Monks in this thread...
Monk isn't bad for a monk if he can survive
Bleeding Rain has 66.475 DPR against AC 24 unbuffed
a haste spell from an ally adds 20.94875 to the value
she can attack from 110 feet away with ease
and a CR10 Monster who full attacks according to the chart, deals 33.75 DPR if they can get close enough, or have pounce. i doubt all monsters can do that.
And DR 5 only reduces her DPR by 5
DR 10 only reduces it by 10
plus she has More HP, initiative and AC than your monk at the cost of marginally weaker saving throws
she uses PFS average HP, 20 point buy, WBL, no custom items, deals more DPR on the rounds you don't blow Ki.
she has some gaping weaknesses if you get close enough to sunder her bow, but i doubt most NPCs will really carry an adamantine weapon for that purpose.
Well, Bleeding Rain is an Archer Fighter, after all... I'm surprised she doesn't outdamage every one here even when they use Ki.
Well, Bleeding Rain is an Archer Fighter, after all... I'm surprised she doesn't outdamage every one here even when they use Ki.
True, the real advantage of Archery is surviveability and distance.
she doesn't need to outdamage Ki spending because she has an extra 110 feet to full attack from, if the monk fought her, he wouldn't likely survive the first full attack.
but most foes die in 2-3 full attacks. unbuffed.
|
Mork - The Half-Orc Qinggong Monk...
** spoiler omitted **...
As to saves, you have to remember you are comparing the saves to a lot of multi-class characters.
Out of curiosity why did you go with favored to skills and take defensive combat over Toughness. Or even power attack, as it really isn't that great with this style build. That is a 20 hit point boost.
Also, for the 9k you spend on +3 bracers you can spend 4k for +2 and 2k for a ring. That would leave you 3k to up your cloak to a +2...or to spend on whatever you like.
As to saves, you have to remember you are comparing the saves to a lot of multi-class characters.
You have a point. Although not even the will saves show that much of an advantage...
Out of curiosity why did you go with favored to skills and take defensive combat over Toughness. Or even power attack, as it really isn't that great with this style build. That is a 20 hit point boost.
Because I like skill points. I usually pick them over extra hp every time. And Monks don't have a lot of versatility out of combat, so skills help. I did the same for my all other builds too, except the last one, I believe.
Anyway, I switched Defensive Combat Training for Toughness.Also, for the 9k you spend on +3 bracers you can spend 4k for +2 and 2k for a ring. That would leave you 3k to up your cloak to a +2...or to spend on whatever you like.
I thought I already had a Ring of Protection... -.-'
I'll fix that...|
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As to saves, you have to remember you are comparing the saves to a lot of multi-class characters.You have a point. Although not even the will saves show that much of an advantage...
Out of curiosity why did you go with favored to skills and take defensive combat over Toughness. Or even power attack, as it really isn't that great with this style build. That is a 20 hit point boost.Because I like skill points. I usually pick them over extra hp every time. And Monks don't have a lot of versatility out of combat, so skills help. I did the same for my all other builds too, except the last one, I believe.
Anyway, I switched Defensive Combat Training for Toughness.Also, for the 9k you spend on +3 bracers you can spend 4k for +2 and 2k for a ring. That would leave you 3k to up your cloak to a +2...or to spend on whatever you like.I though I already had a Ring of Protection... -.-'
I'll fix that...
Cool. Looks good. This will be fun.
@Lumiere Dawnbringer
The archery fighter is (as expected) a bundle of death at range (good job); but conversely, keep in mind that a 10th level monk can charge those 110ft in one round and has a good chance of disarming Bleeding Rain of her bow. Taking Jakiro as an example, he doesn't have any disarm feats, but still has a 55% chance to disarm the bow. If a monk actually gets to do a flurry against Bleeding Rain, that would be a lot of disarm attempts, in the case of Jakiro the chance of missing all disarm attempts is:
0.45 * 0.45 * 0.7 * 0.7 = 9.9%
Or conversely, in one flurry round Jakiro has a 90% chance of disarming the bow - or 95.5% chance if he uses ki for an extra attempt.
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Hello,
This is at best irrelevant, more likely deceptive/flamebait ... but i ran some of these guys and monsters through a lame combat simulation ("start 5' away, roll init, full attack; repeat 1000x"; a lot of not-basic stuff like crane wing, constructs immune to crits; etc is not implemented) ... this is the result:** spoiler omitted **...
Interesting and useful, but also doesn't account much for strategy of each build.
Still interesting. Thanks!
@Lumiere Dawnbringer
The archery fighter is (as expected) a bundle of death at range (good job); but conversely, keep in mind that a 10th level monk can charge those 110ft in one round and has a good chance of disarming Bleeding Rain of her bow. Taking Jakiro as an example, he doesn't have any disarm feats, but still has a 55% chance to disarm the bow. If a monk actually gets to do a flurry against Bleeding Rain, that would be a lot of disarm attempts, in the case of Jakiro the chance of missing all disarm attempts is:
0.45 * 0.45 * 0.7 * 0.7 = 9.9%
Or conversely, in one flurry round Jakiro has a 90% chance of disarming the bow - or 95.5% chance if he uses ki for an extra attempt.
indeed a weakness, if Jakiro survives the first full attack and can move to get a flurry.
i ackknowledge that much. Bleeding rain is screwed without her bow due to being a one trick pony.
a lot of the posted monks are indeed, quite fragile.
but i would prefer to keep PVP out of this. sorry for bragging.
but with gloves of dueling and weapon training, wouldn't her CMD increase by 4 against any attempt to remove her bow?
So... When do we start to pit Monks and Monk wannabes against stuff?
I was trying to simulate a battle between one of my rangers and 2 Hill Giants (gotta start easy).
But now I'm confused...
How should I calculate how much damage each attack deals? Should I just use average damage?
And what are the pre-combat situation? Most battles are unlikely to start with opponents 5ft away from each other.
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I was trying to simulate a battle between one of my rangers and 2 Hill Giants (gotta start easy).
But now I'm confused... How should I calculate how much damage each attack deals and what are the pre-combat situation? Most battles are unlikely to start with opponents 5ft away from each other.
This is the tricky part, particularly since we are actually doing this kind of thing as part of a party.
I think wraith was going to create encounters in the terrain where they are likely to appear and have us play it out, but I'm open to suggestions and ideas.
Starting with an "easy" fight for melee martial characters:
2 Hill Giants:
hp: 85
melee: Greatclub +14/+9 (2d8+10) or 2-Slams +13 (1d8+7)
Ranged: Rock =6 (1d8+10)
Cestus Ranger:
This guy has Survival +13, Perception +15 and Stealth +18. Hill Giants have Perception +6 and Stealth -5. Save for some really bizarre dice roll, Ranger'll easily detect the Giants' presence, track them and approach the duo without being seen.
As soon as he has them in sight, he casts Barkskin on himself, which lasts for 90min and gives him an AC of 27.
If possible to get real close to the giants, he does so using Stealth, preferably at night, to benefit from his Darkvision. If he can do it, he'll get as close as he can to the first giant and full attack it in the surprise round. Since he has initiative +3 and the hill giants have iniative -1, there is a good chance Ranger will go first, which means he makes two full attacks in a row to his 1st target. That's an average DPR of 85,26. Ranger just one-shot his 1st target.
That's the best-case scenario, though... Things rarely go that smoothly...
2nd scenario:
1st round:
If a approaching them unnoticed is impossible (and it probably is). Ranger can harass them with his longbow for an average of 15.21 DPR. Since that was most likely a surprise round for the Hill Giants and they have sucky Initiative modifiers, Rranger goes again for yet another 15.21 damage. All they can do is each come close to melee or throw rocks for an average of 0.8 DPR. Ranger can stick to ranged combat all day if they want. But that's unlikely, Hill Giants are dumb brutes! They'll probably charge Ranger.
The 1st Giant is likely to have a clear path, so he gets to deal 10,6 damage to Ranger. Hurts, but nothing too bad. The second giant likely won't have such luck, as the first one is probably between him and Ranger, so he has to double move. That was lucky...
2nd Round:
Ranger drops his bows (it keeps hanging in his weapon cord) and uses his already equipped Cestus to attack whatever giant he hit with his arrows! That's another 42.6 damage on top of his previous 32.4, for a total of 75 damage. The first Giant is almost dead!
But now it's their turn to attack... Dumb as they are, Hill Giants are still smart enough to flank Ranger, getting a +2 to their attacks.
I assume they're using their Great Clubs (because why would a Giant carry a great club if he don't plan on using it?) Each giant uses Power Attack to deal 13 damage to Ranger. Not a problem, Ranger still has 42.4 hp. Hopefully, that'll be enough!
3rd round:
Ranger will probably kill one of the giants with his 1st attack (average 12,5 damage vs 10hp), but since I'm really nice, let's say he needs his 2 primary attack. Doesn't matter anyway, Hill Giant has 10ft reach, so it's unlikely that second one would be adjacent to Ranger. :(
Ranger finishes the 1st Giant then 5ft steps closer to the 2nd one.
Demonstrating all the tactical thinking one'd expect from a Hill Giant, it once again makes a Power Attack full attack against Ranger. He's not flanking anymore, though, so he deals 8,25 damage to Ranger. Only another 34.15 to go!
4th round:
Ranger's turn! 5ft step again (if necessary) and full freaking attack! This time with Power Attack just because it's fun! That's 51,8 damage to Tiny.
One round later, Ranger still has 25.9 hp, and both Giants are dead.
He celebrates all by himself and complains about his party members who weren't there to help!
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During the 1st round, Ranger uses his absurd skill checks to notice the ogres before they can notice him. His longbow means he gets a good damage advantage before the battle truly begins. After that, it's just your usual melee slugfest...
I wanted to try and simulate an easy fight with few variables, to see how well I could do it. But I think wraithstrike can do it better than me.
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Once everyone is happy with their build I will introduce the terrain and the opponent(s). I will assume whoever has the highest initiative modifier goes first. If that is the same then I go to the highest dex modifier. Hopefully that settle initiative.
Once everyone is happy with their build I will introduce the terrain and the opponent(s). I will assume whoever has the highest initiative modifier goes first. If that is the same then I go to the highest dex modifier. Hopefully that settle initiative.
I think you can post it already, worst case scenario, someone arrives late and post a build, but nothing stops anyone from fighting those battles a little late...
Bleeding Rain is Epic. 33 wins out of 37 on the spreadsheet, before accounting for range.
i found a way to account for range.
Assuming foe charges on their first turn.
i guess it is assumed that archery is so overpowered.
Thank you Jerry.
i'm happy with my build right now.
Bleeding Rain Against First Common CR10 Foe
Bleeding Rain Wins initiative +12 Vs -1
Fire Giant
AC 24, HP 142
Attack; Power Attack +18/13/8 3d6+24
Bleeding Rain full attacks fire giant from 110 feet away DPR 66.475 first full attack
Fire Giant moves 30 feet forward and throws a rock
At +10 for 22 Damage; 7.7 DPR
Bleeding Rain Makes Second Full Attack for 66.475 DPR
Fire Giant at 11.050 HP
Fire Giant moves 30 feet and throws yet another rock. now he can charge on his next turn should he survive.
Bleeding Rain Fires a Full Attack for 66.475 DPR
Fire giant dies before it closes at Negative -56.525 HP
Fire Giant Full Attack DPR
50.815 DPR Against Bleeding Rain on Full Attack
Bleeding Rain Remaining HP total; 88.6
Just your average 2-handed switch-hitter Ranger, so we can compare our Monks and TWFers to him...
Male Half-Elf Ranger 10
N Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +3 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 99 (10d10+40)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +13, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune magic sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 Cold Iron Longsword +18/+13 (1d8+7/19-20/x2) and
. . +2 Silversheen Greatsword +20/+15 (2d6+11/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +6) +16/+11 (1d8+7/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (dragons +2, monstrous humanoids +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 9):
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (3/day) Lead Blades (x2), Longstrider
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +18; CMD 30
Feats Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Endurance, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Power Attack -3/+6, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 jump), Bluff -2 (+0 vs. dragons, +0 vs. monstrous humanoids, +4 vs. undead), Climb +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14 (+16 vs. dragons, +16 vs. monstrous humanoids, +20 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +14 (+16 vs. dragons, +16 vs. monstrous humanoids, +20 vs. undead), Knowledge (religion) +11 (+13 vs. dragons, +13 vs. monstrous humanoids, +17 vs. undead), Perception +20 (+22 vs. dragons, +22 vs. monstrous humanoids, +26 vs. undead, +22 while in forest terrain, +24 while in underground terrain), Sense Motive +2 (+4 vs. dragons, +4 vs. monstrous humanoids, +8 vs. undead), Spellcraft +14, Stealth +18 (+20 while in forest terrain, +22 while in underground terrain), Survival +13 (+15 vs. dragons, +15 vs. monstrous humanoids, +19 vs. undead, +15 while in forest terrain, +17 while in underground terrain, +18 to track), Swim +12 (+16 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ combat styles (archery), elf blood, favored terrains (forest +2, underground +4), hunter's bonds (companions), swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Combat Gear Potion of enlarge person, Potion of fly, Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Breastplate, +1 Cold Iron Longsword, +1 Composite longbow (Str +6), +2 Silversheen Greatsword, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ring of protection +1, Masterwork tool (Climb), Masterwork tool (Stealth), Masterwork tool (Swim), 55 GP
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Special Abilities
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Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Dragons +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Dragons).
Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Underground +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Hunting Companions (2 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
AC: 22 (26 With Barkskin)
Fort 13 Ref 13 Will 11
Melee DPR:
Against AC 24: 36.54
...With Power Attack: 49.14
......Against main Favored Enemy: 78.54
Ranged DPR:
Against AC 24: 39.15 (Includes Rapid Shot and Manyshot)
...Vs Favored Enemy: 71.66 (O.O)
It's a rather obvious build too... The only non-Core stuff is Furious Focus, Bracers of Falcon's Aim and his Pale Green Ioun Stone.
And now I'm off to bed... Good night, everyone.
Bleeding Rain Against CR10 Adult White Dragon
Dragon Starts 100 Feet In Air Above Bleeding Rain
Bleeding Rain Wins Initiative
Bleeding Rain full attacks Dragon's AC of 27 for
42.3
8.225
2.115
52.64 DPR
Dragon HP 95.36
Dragon Flies into Melee Range (effectively charging) and power attacking bites Bleeding Rain for
16.25
Bleeding Rain HP; 87.75
Bleeding Rain 5 foot steps and full attacks Dragon for 52.65 DPR
Dragon HP 42.71
Dragon 5 foot steps and does a power attacking full attack
16.25
21
9.8
7.875
54.925
Bleeding Rain Health; 42.5
Bleeding Rain 5 foot steps back and full attacks dragon for 52.65
Dragon HP -10.06
Dragon Down
Bleeding Rain Fires an Execution shot on downed and stable dragon for 70.5 Damage.
Dragon HP -81.94
Dragon Dies.
Bleeding Rain gets her meal.
Dragon Flies into Melee Range and power attacking bites Bleeding Rain for
16.25
If the dragon isn't charging, then why not move adjacent to the archer, knowing that the weakness of archery is being next to melee. Then her 5' step doesn't take her out of the reach of the bite.
Edit: Also, if the dragon drops direct to the square above Bleeding Rain, then any square she can 5' step to is still within reach of the bite, and the dragon could even charge to that square. So the dragon could even charge to this square and keep her in range of the bite.
If the dragon is really smart, it will try to sunder her bow/quiver with a 50% of doing so on its AoO.
Bleeding Rain realizes that even though dragon and giant taste Yummy, she wants to try the taste of Angel, Purely out of curiosity
Bleeding Rain encounters a movanic deva. to her, a calmer of beasts sounds like a reasonable feast.
this will not take alignment into equation because a savage and cannibalistic hunter could be of any alignment
Bleeding Rain Full Attacks Angel for 42.65 DPR After DR
Angel's Remaining Health; 104.35
Angel Charges and Power Attacks bleeding rain with her morningstar for
22.585
Bleeding Rain's remaining health, 81.415
Bleeding Rain 5 foot steps back and full attacks her future meal for 42.65 after DPR
Angel's Remaining Health; 61.70
Angel 5 foot steps, full attacks and power attacks the hunter for
19.875
13.25
6.625
33.75
Bleeding Rain's Remaining Health 46.45
Bleeding Rain 5 foot steps back and full attacks her meal for 42.65 after DR
Angel's Remaining health; 19.05
Angel 5 foot steps forward and repeats, dealing 33.75
Bleeding Rain's remaining health, 12.70
Bleeding rain 5 foot steps back and full attacks angel dealing 42.65 After DR
Angel's Health; -30.05
Bleeding Rain gets her celestial feast.
If the dragon isn't charging, then why not move adjacent to the archer, knowing that the weakness of archery is being next to melee. Then her 5' step doesn't take her out of the reach of the bite.Dragon Flies into Melee Range and power attacking bites Bleeding Rain for
16.25
because the numbers were calculated as if he had charged. plus the dragon was fairly arrogant. due to being a powerful dragon with a fancy horde that eats adventurers for breakfast.
the dragon could have easily won by swallowing me in the first round if it wished.
but dragons tend to be so arrogant due to their massive hordes looted from many slain adventurers that they grow reckless based on assumptions.
with 200 feet of movement with poor maneuverability, and low dexterity, i doubt it had that level of flexibility to it's movement.
plus she was hunting for arrogant dragons, not dragons hunting her.
i ignored the alignment stuff because i figured it was irrelevant since most PCs write whatever the hell they want on their sheet as their class permits.
and bleeding rain, being a savage hunter, could just as easily be any alignment.
cannibalism doesn't make you evil, merely creepy, disgusting and akward.
i factored the DR and clustered shots for the sake of calculation.
the dragon could have easily won by swallowing me in the first round if it wished.
but dragons tend to be so arrogant due to their massive hordes looted from many slain adventurers that they grow reckless based on assumptions.
with 200 feet of movement with poor maneuverability, and low dexterity, i doubt it had that level of flexibility to it's movement.
plus she was hunting for arrogant dragons, not dragons hunting her.
To charge to an adjacent square would merely require it charging with a non-reach attack (claw) and having 5' more movement left in the round.
Adult white dragons are 100-200 years old. I think in that time, it would have learned the best way to deal with an archer. Or alternately, since you did over 1/3rd of his HP in damage in the first volley, to fly higher up or pop fog cloud on you.
It does not have swallow whole as an ability, and you could always use arrows as improvised daggers if needed for cutting you way out if it did.
the dragon could have easily won by swallowing me in the first round if it wished.
but dragons tend to be so arrogant due to their massive hordes looted from many slain adventurers that they grow reckless based on assumptions.
with 200 feet of movement with poor maneuverability, and low dexterity, i doubt it had that level of flexibility to it's movement.
plus she was hunting for arrogant dragons, not dragons hunting her.
To charge to an adjacent square would merely require it charging with a non-reach attack (claw) and having 5' more movement left in the round.
Adult white dragons are 100-200 years old. I think in that time, it would have learned the best way to deal with an archer. Or alternately, since you did over 1/3rd of his HP in damage in the first volley, to fly higher up or pop fog cloud on you.
It does not have swallow whole as an ability, and you could always use arrows as improvised daggers if needed for cutting you way out if it did.
if i were to do that, it would be akin to using flyby attack and it's massive reach to kill these melee characters without giving them a chance to fight back.
plus, few DMs in my area would think of that because most of them tend to be overwhelmed by running everything else.
but then, nobody really solos dragons or such either. not even Bleeding Rain herself. at least not in a Real Game.
but i wouldn't use bleeding rain in a real game either.
but a real group, is around 5-7 players before factoring cohorts in my Area. not counting Weekly William's abomination
but all those groups in my area tend to play
25 point buy
all Paizo PF material open, ask about certain pre errata options or variant things like spell research or race builder
2 traits
max starting gold at 1st level
leveling occurs at milestones without penalizing new PCs
absent PCs don't get a share of loot for that session
consult group before bringing in an evil PC, a gunslinger, or summoner
acquiring permission to use third party also gives the DM permission to use the same third party sources.
Edit; the only reason any party beats a dragon is because the DM allows them too. they have so many "Screw you" buttons for everything.
I agree that a dragon is not typically an opponent encountered 1v1. But on the other hand, me and GM's I play with, use all the dragon's tricks and powers appropriately. Either the party beats it anyway, or they run away really fast. (Or a TPK.) You cannot assume "it'll be stupid because it is prideful".
Apart from that, you're example fights need to account for terrain - we're not fighting on a featureless flat plane. The Fire Giant will make effort to approach a ranged combatant by ending its turns behind cover when possible. I'd usually rule for normal cover (rather than total cover), but that is still a +4 to AC that is not accounted for in the simulation fight. Yes, Bleeding Rain will still beat the Fire Giant just fine, but it is not as one sided as described initially.
As a ranged combatant, you need to always have a follow-up encounter, with the same monster where the monster ambushes Bleeding Rain - since you may not give your character the benefit of idealized starting conditions in all fights. E.g: surprise round charge by the Fire Giant to attack Bleeding Rain, then normal rounds after). Again I expect Bleeding Rain to win, but it will be even less easy as she doesn't have the range advantage to start with.
These are the types of conditions and encounters you need to portray. The whole point of this Proving Grounds thread is that we have "real" opponents under "real" conditions.
Bleeding Rain is Epic. 33 wins out of 37 on the spreadsheet, before accounting for range.
Keep in mind that the spreadsheet partially accounted for range, and excludes basic defensive measures like monks' ki dodge, as well as deflect arrow feat. (Though obviously the sheet cannot account for more complex fighting strategies.)
Is it too late for me to submit a build? I just finally finished reading the other thread and could have a build put together by tomorrow.
It is not too late.
I like this suggestion by Lemmy-->I think we should see how each character fares against 2~3 different encounters in a row (with 10~30 minutes of "rest" time).
The links are to monk builds, and single classed non-monk builds. You are still free to try to use your other builds, but the focus is on monks and how they compare to non-monks
Lemmy's two handed switch ranger build
Mork -
The Half-Orc Qinggong Monk... by Lemmy
Jakiro, Qinggong Monk 10 by Lorekeeper
Ciretose's 2nd attempt at a monk
Grok the invurnable rager coming soon...
Our first opponent is witchfire which is a CR 9 monster. It is waiting in hiding to ambush someone with a stealth modifier of +16, and an inititiave modifier of +10.
Monks should do well here because it goes after the touch AC of a victim.
For any rangers, this is an undead creature.
Witchfire CR 9
XP 6,400
CE Medium undead (incorporeal)
Init +10; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 24, touch 24, flat-footed 17 (+7 deflection, +6 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 115 (10d8+70)
Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +10
Defensive Abilities incorporeal, witchflame; Immune fire, undead traits
OFFENSE
Speed fly 50 ft. (perfect)
Melee incorporeal touch +13 (8d6 fire plus witchflame)
Ranged witchflame bolt* +13 (8d6 fire plus witchflame)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th); concentration +16
At will—dancing lights, disguise self, ghost sound (DC 17), invisibility, pyrotechnics (DC 19), ray of enfeeblement (DC 18)
1/day—summon (level 4, 2 will-o’-wisps 50%)
STATISTICS
Str —, Dex 22, Con —, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 25
Base Atk +7; CMB +13; CMD 31
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility
Skills Bluff +17, Fly +14, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (any two) +13, Perception +16, Sense Motive +16, Stealth +19
Languages Auran, Common, Giant
SQ sound mimicry (animal noises)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Witchflame (Su)
Any creature damaged by the incorporeal touch or ranged bolt attacks of a witchfire must succeed on a DC 22 Will save or become engulfed in sickly green flames. While these eerie flames deal no additional damage, the affected creature glows as per faerie fire and becomes sickened. While under the effects of the witchflame, the victim gains vulnerability to fire and takes half again as much damage (+50%) from fire attacks of any sort. This effect persists for 10 minutes. The supernatural flames can only be extinguished before this duration expires by a break enchantment, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell—the effective caster level of the witchflame is equal to the witchfire’s HD (CL 10th for most witchfires). Any creature entering the same square as a witchfire or striking it with a melee attack must succeed on a DC 22 Will save or begin burning with witchflame, even if the attack would not otherwise harm the witchfire because of its incorporeal nature. A bolt of witchflame has a range of 60 feet with no range increment. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
I'm still not sure how to handle the actual fight. So can you lead the way with a sample character? (Perhaps use the monk iconic at level 10.)
I am going to use 10th level.
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Edit: Well I'll be damned, only works in gameplay?
I'm still not sure how to handle the actual fight. So can you lead the way with a sample character? (Perhaps use the monk iconic at level 10.)
I will use my ranger...The next post will be an example..
edit:That link is not to my ranger. I will have to go find it.
The Witchfire is an intelligent creature, and for the sake of this combat let's assume it knew the ranger or anyone else was coming. It has a +19, and it has invisibility as an SLA. I think it is safe to assume that my ranger most likely wont be seeing it, and its ranged attack has a limit of 60 feet.
Since we are in a swamp there will most likely be no cover.
He will get a surprise round.
I have a touch AC of but I am flat-footed so that he only has to hit an AC of 11 so he has a 95 percent chance to hit.
8d6 averages out to 29.93 points of damage.
well now I have to make a DC 22 will save to avoid the witchflames which causes the ranger to be sickened, and take 50% more damage from fire based attacks.
I only have a +11 to my will save so that is a 55 percent chance to fail the save.
Since my touch AC is only a 13 he still only has a 95% chance to miss
29.93 x(1.5)= 44.895. When you include the 55% chance to for the ranger to fail the will save it drops to 38.16, but that is about half of my hit points.
Maybe I should have prepped energy resistance instead.
If the party has some form of energy resistance available and I use instant enemy the witch fire can be taken down, other wise he will make sure I never get a full attack, and kill the ranger. If I had a ranged combat focused ranger the witchfire would go down a lot easier, but I would still need the party's support most likely.
PS: I used one of these before in combination with another monster that does fire damage in a game. It was brutal.
PS2: I did not finish the math because this one is academic.
The ranger will have to retreat. Hopefully the next fight is easier.
edit:That was over half, and closer to 70% of my hit points most likely.
I like this suggestion by Lemmy-->I think we should see how each character fares against 2~3 different encounters in a row (with 10~30 minutes of "rest" time).
How do we account for saves? Most builds here have something of a 40~60% chance of making CR-appropriate saves. Those values aren't low enough to be considered an auto-fail nor high enough to be considered a auto-success.
Since saves in PF tend to be binary, that makes a huge difference as well...
I like this suggestion by Lemmy-->I think we should see how each character fares against 2~3 different encounters in a row (with 10~30 minutes of "rest" time).How do we account for saves? Most builds here have something of a 40~60% chance of making CR-appropriate saves. Those values aren't low enough to be considered an auto-fail nor high enough to be considered a auto-success.
Since saves in PF tend to be binary, that makes a huge difference as well...
Perhaps in those cases assume fail-success-success-fail-fail-success-success-fail-... (etc)
Here is how I found out the witchfire's potential damage on a save.
If you fail the save 100 percent of the time the total time will be 44.895.
The normal damage is 29.93
That means the 50% extra damage is 14.995
However you only take 100% of 14.995 if you fail 100% of the saves which will never happen.
Since I fail 55% of the time I multiply .55 X 14.995. You then add that number to get the amount of extra damage you take.
----------------------------
Lemmy the save will have to be done on a case by case basis depending on what happens if you fail the save.
We may just have to run more than one scenario for some monsters, and look at the likelihood of that scenario taking place. Luckily the first time I did this sort of thing we could just use math to come to an agreeable answer.
Okay, this is my first attempt:
Being invisible, and flying, the Witchfire gets the jump on Jakiro. The Witchfire uses her ranged attack from 30ft away - directly above Jakiro. The attack is not a touch attack (being her ranged attack), but still catches Jakiro by surprise.
Round 1 (surprise!)
+13 attack vs 27 flat AC = 0.35 * 28 = 9.8
Round 2
Jakiro must use a potion of flying (or rely on his party) if he wants to stand any chances to get at the Witchfire. He spends a round doing that - in which the Witchfire attempts to hit him again; this time against his full AC.
+13 attack vs 35 AC = 0.05 * 28 = 1.4
Round 3
Jakiro flies towards the Witchfire, and gets one attack
+16 attack vs AC 24 = 0.65 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 6.0
The Witchfire gleefully switches to its touch attack
+13 attack vs 27 flat AC = 0.35 * 28 = 9.8
Snake Fang = 0.65 * 0.7 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 4.2
At this point the Witchfire is quite confident in its ability to take on Jakiro
Round 4
Jakiro follows up with a flurry, using a ki point for extra attack = 3 * 0.7 * 18.5 * 0.5 + 2 * 0.45 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 27.8
The Witchfire is a little bothered by the potency of the flurry, and decides to take this into a ranged fight - she moves away, provoking, then ranged attacks
AOO 0.7 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 6.5
+13 attack vs 35 AC = 0.05 * 28 = 1.4
Round 5
Jakiro follows and attacks +16 attack vs AC 24 = 0.65 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 6.0
At this point the Witchfire realizes it is playing a losing battle, it chooses to go invisible and flee. Jakiro has no means to follow her (apart from what the party may provide) so the battle ends for him.
Final tally
Damage sustained by Jakiro: 22.4
Damage sustained by Jakiro assuming 100% fail rate: 9.8 + 1.5 * (22.4 - 9.8) = 28.7
Damage due to witchflame: 28.7 - 22.4 = 6.3
Jakiro's fail chance vs witchflame: 45%
Damage sustained by Jakiro including witchflame: 22.4 + 0.45 * 6.3 = 25.2
Damage dealt by Jakiro: 50.5
...
It seems Jakiro should invest in a few potions of see invisibility
Okay, this is my first attempt:
Being invisible, and flying, the Witchfire gets the jump on Jakiro. The Witchfire uses her ranged attack from 30ft away - directly above Jakiro. The attack is not a touch attack (being her ranged attack), but still catches Jakiro by surprise.
Round 1 (surprise!)
+13 attack vs 27 flat AC = 0.35 * 28 = 9.8Round 2
Jakiro must use a potion of flying (or rely on his party) if he wants to stand any chances to get at the Witchfire. He spends a round doing that - in which the Witchfire attempts to hit him again; this time against his full AC.+13 attack vs 35 AC = 0.05 * 28 = 1.4
Round 3
Jakiro flies towards the Witchfire, and gets one attack+16 attack vs AC 24 = 0.65 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 6.0
The Witchfire gleefully switches to its touch attack
+13 attack vs 27 flat AC = 0.35 * 28 = 9.8
Snake Fang = 0.65 * 0.7 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 4.2At this point the Witchfire is quite confident in its ability to take on Jakiro
Round 4
Jakiro follows up with a flurry, using a ki point for extra attack = 3 * 0.7 * 18.5 * 0.5 + 2 * 0.45 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 27.8The Witchfire is a little bothered by the potency of the flurry, and decides to take this into a ranged fight - she moves away, provoking, then ranged attacks
AOO 0.7 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 6.5
+13 attack vs 35 AC = 0.05 * 28 = 1.4Round 5
Jakiro follows and attacks +16 attack vs AC 24 = 0.65 * 18.5 * 0.5 = 6.0At this point the Witchfire realizes it is playing a losing battle, it chooses to go invisible and flee. Jakiro has no means to follow her (apart from what the party may provide) so the battle ends for him.
Final tally
Damage sustained by Jakiro: 22.4
Damage sustained by Jakiro assuming 100% fail rate: 9.8 + 1.5 * (22.4 - 9.8) = 28.7
Damage due to witchflame: 28.7 - 22.4 = 6.3
Jakiro's fail chance vs witchflame: 45%
Damage sustained by Jakiro including witchflame: 22.4 + 0.45 * 6.3 = 25.2
Damage dealt by...
That ranged attack is a touch attack. They just forgot to state it. All incorporeal creatures make touch attacks. They dont have the ability to make non-touch attacks.
edit:The witchfire should take the attack of opportunity since it has mobility(+4 to AC when provoking an AoO from movement) to fire at you with a ranged attack since that is better than eating full round attacks if you can hit it easily.
Of course with your high AC it might not matter.
LoreKeeper I can get you the link to a chart for figuring out DPR if you need it. Accounting for crits matters sometimes.