Hi,
Just what the title says.
I find if I am playing and optimized Pally or Ranger or Barb, I never bother with the feat.
A 16-18 Str+ Rage or Smite/Divine Favor or FE usually is plenty to get the job done.
A little extra never hurts, especially for builds that are not very Feat intensive (your average 2H smashy build, for example). So Weapon Focus, Toughness, and the like could very well be taken just because "Why not? Not like I have anything better to take." (barring Iron Will and such).
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Anyone interested in hitting things.
Ninja/ sorc/ MT, weapon focus ranged touch.
The poor TWF rogue pretty much must.
Monk duelists
3/4 BaB classes that use dervish dance (other than dervish of dawn bard).
Alot of battle clerics and divine scions
It may not be a game breakin, can't live without kind of feat, but a +1 is still a +1...
I only take it when it's required for something else I really want. And that something has never been "Weapon Specialization."
As an example, the 3E Master Thrower prestige class required Weapon Focus with a thrown weapon and its throwing tricks only worked with weapons you had Focus in. Those tricks let you do cool things like get a free trip attempt on every thrown attack on top of the damage or attack touch AC in return for not adding str mod to thrown damage. Hell yeah, weapon focus is worth it for that!
Every build has priorities. Weapon focus addresses one potential priority. If you think about it, one in twenty missed will turn into hits (correct me if I'm wrong). And for melee classes, scoring hits is what the game is all about, right?
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Hi,
Just what the title says.
I find if I am playing and optimized Pally or Ranger or Barb, I never bother with the feat.
A 16-18 Str+ Rage or Smite/Divine Favor or FE usually is plenty to get the job done.
Interestingly, my full BAB characters almost never take Weapon Focus but my Bards, Rogues and others often do.
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I'd rather have feats that give fun and powerful new options and abilities. Rather than a boring static +1 to hit bonus. I like what a poster on another board once said of weapon focus: "I've never had a discussion with my buddies that went: 'Remember how my character took Weapon Focus and after that he got one extra hit for every twenty attacks on average? That was awesome!!' "
Nevermind the problem of devoting to one weapon only to not find any in the loot. Sure, you can upgrade your current one. Maybe... But look at all the nice other 2H weapons you're missing out on!
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Druthers are nice and all, but the fact remains that extra +1s are necessary for this game, so "Boring, but practical" is always going to look like a nice option if you've been getting your ass whipped or missing a lot.
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Well, there's also the metagame aspect.
If you pump your to hit or AC really high, the DM will likely modify his monsters to compensate. If you have subpar to hit or AC, the DM will often modify his monsters down a bit to make up for the unoptimized party. As long as there isn't one guy jumping out ahead trying to be as twinked out on attack modifier or whatever as possible, this will generally hold true.
So feverishly boosting your attack rolls or AC is ultimately a pointless process; the DM is going to want to provide a challenge to you. Does this mean you should utterly tank your modifiers and ask the DM for a lot of mercy? No. Does it mean you should waste resources on eeking out every +1 you can? Also no. Find the golden mean.
So yeah, if there are good, interesting, non-math options, I'll tend to take those over the +1.
IMHO, the only real value of Weapo Focus is the fact that it's a very common prerequisite. And that is more of a flaw with feats in general than a merit of WF.
Hell, WF doesn't even make a difference 95% of the time!
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When I run I do not adjust for poorly built characters. I tell my players up front what the campaign is going to be about and warn them of problems I see with their builds. If the player ignores my advice that is his problem. Part of the reason I run is I like to write up characters and could never play all the characters I come up with.
It's also unfair to the other players to adjust the encounters down because of one characters incompetence. I am use a 25 point buy and standard wealth by level. I expect that my players have at least competent characters.
The same could be said about dodge or the dex belt you just bought it's just the way the game works by stacking up 5% at a time you find yourself 50% more likely to land hits or avoid them.IMHO, the only real value of Weapo Focus is the fact that it's a very common prerequisite. And that is more of a flaw with feats in general than a merit of WF.
Hell, WF doesn't even make a difference 95% of the time!
Dodge is a sucky feat as well. And that belt of Dex does more than both of them.
It increases ranged attack accuracy (maybe melee as well, possibly damage too), not just attacks made with a single type of weapon, AC, touch AC, initiative, a bunch of skill checks and Reflex save. It also helps you qualify for feats and cost a much less valuable resource (feats are worth more than gold).Similar stuff can be said about other attribute scores... Well, except for Cha for classes without Cha-based abilities.
As for Weapon focus I like it for Two weapon fighters using the same weapons and people with 3/4 BAB who need the extra just to break even compared to a standard full BAB 2h fighter.
I also take it for medium BAB charcters fi I have an extra feat and don't know what to do with it. For a TWFing Rogue, WF is okay because Rogues need all the help they can get to hit stuff, especially TWFers. But again, that's more of a flaw of Rogues than a merit of WF.
WF is a boring feat that barely has any effect other than fulfilling prerequisites... Weapon Specialization is just as boring, but it at least applies to all attacks you land. So it's useful more than 5% of the time.
If you think about it, one in twenty missed will turn into hits (correct me if I'm wrong).
Suppose you were hitting on a three (miss on a one or a two), and then you take weapon focus - now you only miss on a natural one. That means one in two of your misses will be turned into a hit. Still only one in twenty of your attacks though.
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If you pump your to hit or AC really high, the DM will likely modify his monsters to compensate.
A lot of DMs are running an adventure path and won't want to change every battle. Especially not increasing enemy ACs just because one character keeps hitting enemies. "How dare you successfully inflict damage on one of the monsters you have to be defeat to continue the adventure!"
I imagine it's more common to modify encounters to deal with players with unhittable ACs.
Any build relying on multiple attacks with similar weapons. It seems beneficial for natural weapons such as claws, though you could take Big game hunter as your 1st level feat but that's not a consistent bonus. I've builds centered around cleave/cleaving finish etc include weapon focus. I've seen a fair number of ninja builds take it to off-set twf penalties.
If I'm playing a 3/4BAB or lower class that wants to get into combat? It's practically mandatory. (If combat isn't my character goal however, I'll skip it and hope the d20 loves me when I'm thrown into combat.)
If I'm playing a full BAB class, I only ever take it if it's a prereq to a feat that I actually want - never just because of the bonus.
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I'd rather have feats that give fun and powerful new options and abilities. Rather than a boring static +1 to hit bonus. I like what a poster on another board once said of weapon focus: "I've never had a discussion with my buddies that went: 'Remember how my character took Weapon Focus and after that he got one extra hit for every twenty attacks on average? That was awesome!!' "
Nevermind the problem of devoting to one weapon only to not find any in the loot. Sure, you can upgrade your current one. Maybe... But look at all the nice other 2H weapons you're missing out on!
While I really see your point, I think it represents a misconception. While feats like weapon focus are not really all that shiny, you need to garner a critical mass of them to make the rest of your build work. You need those supporting feats to make a character work.
It's like going to the movies, really. The memorable experiances you'd have would be of the movies you'd see and enjoy. You might remember fondly that time you watched "Avengers" with your buddies. The discussion you and your buddies will never have is, 'Remember how the air conditioning in the theater worked perfectly? That was awesome!!'. The reason is that when all the perliminary support of something works properly, you don't even notice it, and it allows you to enjoy the main thing.Same goes for feats that do nothing but grant you bonuses to rolls in Pathfinder. They might not seem important, but they are enablers of the awesome things. Sure, taking weapon focus and iron will and dodge is not very exciting, but then again having your character fail saves, get hit a lot and miss a lot is also not as exciting as having the character succeed at what they are doing.
What you might remember from a game was how awesome it was when your two-weapon ranger jumped 20 ft in the air and carved a tattoo shaped like the name of his mother acorss a stone giant's belly button. What you might not remember is how lucky you were to win initiative and be able to do so, because you took the improved initiative feat.
Well, there's also the metagame aspect.
If you pump your to hit or AC really high, the DM will likely modify his monsters to compensate. If you have subpar to hit or AC, the DM will often modify his monsters down a bit to make up for the unoptimized party. As long as there isn't one guy jumping out ahead trying to be as twinked out on attack modifier or whatever as possible, this will generally hold true.
This more or less sums up the problem with the Jade Regent game I am in. The bulk of the party is sub-optimized, while the Magus is twinked to the teeth. Seriously, he has almost TWICE as much to hit as the next best attacker, does more than twice the damage and has as good, or better, AC than the defensive-minded ninja/monk. Basically, the encounters play out like your average DBZ encounter: The magus is Goku and singlehandedly defeats the boss and the toughest guys, while we frantically run around trying our best not to die. I know the monsters have more or less x2 hp and the advanced template by default, or +2-4 levels if they are casters, compared to the actual AP, all equipped with prophetic vision so they always buff themselves just before we encounter them.
Sh*t sucks, yo.
Sometimes Weapon Focus is a cheaper option than spending loads of gold to upgrade your belt of strength.
If you are only hitting on a 19 or 20, that feat can increase your chance of hitting by 50% [5% overall !]
Every build has priorities. Weapon focus addresses one potential priority. If you think about it, one in twenty missed will turn into hits (correct me if I'm wrong). And for melee classes, scoring hits is what the game is all about, right?
you are wrong, if you have a 50% chance to hit it will increase your chance to hit by 5% which will increase your DPR by 10%, people widely underestimate the effect of a +1 bonus to hit.
I do not think weapon specialization is worthwhile, I started weapon training from level 1 for fighters and allow weapon specialization with a weapon to increase the bonus to +1/+2 for a weapon group of choice, this way by level 5 you have +2 damage which increases every 4 levels after.
I also allow weapon focus to work for weapon groups but see no need to increase the bonus.
Well the last few builds I have played.
Sacred Servant (Went moonlight stalker and Tactics subdomain, even with the 8th level WEAPON MASTER power never used WF. Used Cornugon Smash or something)
Two weapon warrior duel wielding scimitars- he used it.
Inquisitor Dwarf (Went moonlight stalker and Tactics subdomain, even with the 8th level WEAPON MASTER power never used WF. Used Imp trip or Cleave or something)
Hexcrafter went for Rime Spell+ Enforcer (Frostbite) and alot of Extra Arcana.
Invulnerable Rager- why take WF when Reckless Abandon and Extra Rage Power is soooo much better.
The classes that didn't take WF never had a problem hitting, spells and rage or Smite etc make up for that.
I kinda feel that fighters need it. since hitting is thier major schtick.
I am not saying fighters suck. I love them. I do hate tying myself to a particular weapon.
How is +4 damage not worthwhile?
What's the loss?
The loss is two feats for that +4 damage, it might be worthwhile only because fighters have no better option to spend their feats, unlike a barbarian which's rage powers are far superior, so yes it is worthwhile for the fighter if you are stuck with playing one but it makes the fighter not worthwhile compared to other martials.
This more or less sums up the problem with the Jade Regent game I am in. The bulk of the party is sub-optimized, while the Magus is twinked to the teeth. Seriously, he has almost TWICE as much to hit as the next best attacker, does more than twice the damage and has as good, or better, AC than the defensive-minded ninja/monk. Basically, the encounters play out like your average DBZ encounter: The magus is Goku and singlehandedly defeats the boss and the toughest guys, while we frantically run around trying our best not to die. I know the monsters have more or less x2 hp and the advanced template by default, or +2-4 levels if they are casters, compared to the actual AP, all equipped with prophetic vision so they always buff themselves just before we encounter them.
Sh*t sucks, yo.
In my current PF game, I have a dex-based Alchemist I made to be an unconventional "dodge tank" for the party. Not great hp, but high AC so he can do his job. Apparently the DM did not understand this and began griping about how high his AC was. And then all the monsters started having arbitrarily, unexplainably high to hit bonuses. I have since for the past at least 4 character levels been intentionally sandbagging my AC by not increasing it when I could have. I realized it was a fruitless effort to waste resources there, and if I continued to do so, it'd only make the lower AC party members suffer.
People don't like it when you bring up the metagame, but it really is an important consideration...
my showman barbarian does, only way to get Dazzling Display.
Works well for Inquisitors too.
This more or less sums up the problem with the Jade Regent game I am in. The bulk of the party is sub-optimized, while the Magus is twinked to the teeth. Seriously, he has almost TWICE as much to hit as the next best attacker, does more than twice the damage and has as good, or better, AC than the defensive-minded ninja/monk. Basically, the encounters play out like your average DBZ encounter: The magus is Goku and singlehandedly defeats the boss and the toughest guys, while we frantically run around trying our best not to die. I know the monsters have more or less x2 hp and the advanced template by default, or +2-4 levels if they are casters, compared to the actual AP, all equipped with prophetic vision so they always buff themselves just before we encounter them.
Sh*t sucks, yo.
In my current PF game, I have a dex-based Alchemist I made to be an unconventional "dodge tank" for the party. Not great hp, but high AC so he can do his job. Apparently the DM did not understand this and began griping about how high his AC was. And then all the monsters started having arbitrarily, unexplainably high to hit bonuses. I have since for the past at least 4 character levels been intentionally sandbagging my AC by not increasing it when I could have. I realized it was a fruitless effort to waste resources there, and if I continued to do so, it'd only make the lower AC party members suffer.
People don't like it when you bring up the metagame, but it really is an important consideration...
Sounds like it is in your game... but I'm glad that crap would never fly in ours. The GM might fudge a roll here or there for dramatic purposes, but characters aren't punished for playing well or having well-made characters in our game... we're also not consumed with the never-ending quest for balance - sometimes in life some people are just better than you at some things, even significantly better. Smart players are pleased to have such strong allies and eager to see what can be accomplished together - heh, can you imagine what Firefly would have been like if Jayne, Zoey and Mal had stood around whining that River Tam was so much better at fighting than they were?
When characters are particularly effective or have a tactic that works well for them, intelligent foes eventually learn of it and might take moves to counter or nullify them, but its all in line with the story and follows what would have happened anyway - monsters don't suddenly get 'special bonuses' because the GM is trying to get us.
The biggest danger in RPG's that I have found is that many groups forget the entire point of this exercise is cooperative story-telling, and fall into the trap of being in competition with one another or, worse still, in competition with the GM. That never works out well for anyone.
Mathematically, Weapon Focus is often one of the most efficient feats you can take. In many situations, it will increase your average damage more than Power Attack. It has to be a "weak" feat because, if it were strong, everyone would take it all the time.
I take weapon focus because it's required for a lot of really really good feat chains.
Like the Dazzling Display chain.
This more or less sums up the problem with the Jade Regent game I am in. The bulk of the party is sub-optimized, while the Magus is twinked to the teeth. Seriously, he has almost TWICE as much to hit as the next best attacker, does more than twice the damage and has as good, or better, AC than the defensive-minded ninja/monk. Basically, the encounters play out like your average DBZ encounter: The magus is Goku and singlehandedly defeats the boss and the toughest guys, while we frantically run around trying our best not to die. I know the monsters have more or less x2 hp and the advanced template by default, or +2-4 levels if they are casters, compared to the actual AP, all equipped with prophetic vision so they always buff themselves just before we encounter them.
Sh*t sucks, yo.
In my current PF game, I have a dex-based Alchemist I made to be an unconventional "dodge tank" for the party. Not great hp, but high AC so he can do his job. Apparently the DM did not understand this and began griping about how high his AC was. And then all the monsters started having arbitrarily, unexplainably high to hit bonuses. I have since for the past at least 4 character levels been intentionally sandbagging my AC by not increasing it when I could have. I realized it was a fruitless effort to waste resources there, and if I continued to do so, it'd only make the lower AC party members suffer.
People don't like it when you bring up the metagame, but it really is an important consideration...
Exactly. I got Good Hope and Haste to buff the party in the big, important fights, but now it is like I HAVE TO have an extended Good Hope going at all times, and spend the first round in combat to cast Haste as a standard action and Inspire Courage as a move action. Otherwise we would not survive half the encounters. Then, the next round, I pretty much have to use Dirge of Doom to debuff the enemy, so we even the playing field. THEN I get to do something I want to do myself. Usually Mirror Image so I survive to round 3.
It is not very fun to have a damn macro for a tabletop game. Especially when I am playing a BARD.
On topic: The more attacks I have with the same type of weapon (archer or dual-wielder), the more I want Weapon Finesse. I _NEVER_ take it with a two-hander or similar build, who have fewer attacks. I always grab Furious Focus for those builds though, which scales with me. Sure, it is just the first attack, but you only have one attack for the first 5 levels, and if you ever have to move or change weapons, you are stuck with 1 attack again.
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Battle Oracles have a mystery that grants them Weapon Focus immediately, and other benefits with the same weapon later on (Improved Crit, and Greater Weapon Focus, IIRC). Definitely worth getting, especially since they're only a 3/4 BAB class.
Which brings up a good point. I'd say any weapon based PC that isn't full BAB will benefit from this feat, if they have enough feats to spare. I'm planning to take it with my ninja for the same reason. Hitting is good.
^ ^ That is the reason classes take WF, extra to hit never hurts. Especially for character concepts that will only use that weapon type. Or human fighters that use the Martial Versatility and Martial Mastery feats, WF and WS chains become a lot more valuable.
I find this to be a terrible example of DMing.
If only I could find the perfect DM and be free of such concerns, as you are.
Instead I can only find flawed human ones who do a pretty good job overall but have their faults.
*shrug*
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I find this to be a terrible example of DMing.If only I could find the perfect DM and be free of such concerns, as you are.
Instead I can only find flawed human ones who do a pretty good job overall but have their faults.
*shrug*
I don't think your sarcasm really responds to the essence of what he was saying, and what I agree with. Playing with a DM who thinks that "the metagame" is so important that he will inexplicably and arbitrarily break some encounters just to counter your characters strength is an example of poor DMing in my experience. I know plenty of DM's (probably including yourself if I may be so bold, which are also not aliens) who would know how to throw a challenging encounter at a party without making it obvious that he's just fudging the numbers.
If you, as a character, are intentionally unbalancing the game, that's really your problem, and I would have that conversation with you as DM. If your DM struggles to properly handle this and so he decides to over-compensating just to counter your unbalance, then that is also a problem. A DM needs to be able to see beyond that, and let characters have their fun, while naturally exploiting their weaknesses when the time is right, which will teach them the lesson they needed to learn.
To the point on the table, I think weapon focus goes a LONG way for some characters, especially TWF, and 3/4 BAB characters. Powergamers understand the cumulative DPR implications, and the average game begins to notice when they're not hitting enough. My first TWF Rogue was oozing with flavor and fun combat options, but really struggled to hit. Weapon Focus was an important bump (along with a few other feats and pieces of gear) that helped me to see his combat abilities become useful.
IMC the archer ranger 2 gets good value out of WF-longbow, on the basis that he's always going to use one. In terms of DPR he's probably have been better off with rapid shot, but that will come next level. Or maybe Quick Draw. He won't take WF for his melee weapon (currently a battleaxe) as he's not so attached to it and will probably drop it when a magic weapon turns up.
The rogue 2 will take WF-dagger when he can spare the feat, but as he has finesse and huge dex he's already the most accurate in melee, so it can wait. Doesn't do any damage (1d3), but he does hit.
Weapon Focus is 5% of your damage potential.
Which means that, as you level, it's actually worth more and more, because your damage potential is higher, AND you get more attacks.
If you are averaging 10 pts dmg with a single attack, Weapon Focus is .5 damage...not worth a whole lot.
If you are averaging 50 dmg an attack and 4 attacks, weapon focus is +10 damage, and more valuable then weapon spec.
if you have even more attacks, say as an archer, or TWF, weapon focus simply becomes more and more valuable with every added attack.
Weapon Focus is not so important yet useful feat at level 1, and a highly useful feat as you start levelling.
Also, +1 to hit is not just 5%.
If you hit on a 15 normally, going to a 14 just improved your odds 14%. You now hit 6/20 instead of 7/20. This starts becoming more and more useful as you get iteratives. If something has a high AC, going from hitting on an 18 to hitting on a 17 is a 33% increase in your ability to hit, and hence your damage.
+1's all add up over time. Just remember that the single biggest difference in damage between a 2h fighter and a 2 weapon fighter is the latter is -2 on all attacks. If the 2h'er doesn't take WF and GWF, that race suddenly becomes MUCH closer.
==Aelryinth