
Baffo |
Hello guys,
I'm going to participate to my 1st PF campaign pretty soon and I decided to play a paladin. We are going to play with only the core book.
My idea is instead of playing the classic "Lawful Stupid" tank, I would like to play a more dex oriented paladin (as a background probably trained by monks), very devout, mobile, proficient in archery and melee combat.
My ability scores are:
STR 15
DEX 18 (16 + 2 as human)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 18
The DM let us roll 4d6, reroll 1s and discard the lower score.
Armor:
Studded Leather (I don't like the movement reduction of medium/heavy armor)
Weapons:
Ranged: Shortbow / Longbow, which one do you suggest?
Melee: 2h Falchion / Shield and Scimitar, again which one is you suggestion?
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Power Attack
We are going to play a very short campaign so we are going to finish it that we are still low level (~ lvl 5/6) and the group will probably be formed by: 1 Paladin (me), 1 Druid, 1 Thief and 1 Mage (or a Fighter he is still undecided).
Any suggestion?
Thank you in advance

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This should probably be in the Advice section. But to the suggestions...
Armor: The studded leather should work ok for level 1, but I would probably want to grab a MW chain shirt as soon as possible, then a mithral breastplate if you can afford it--they'll both let you stay at unimpeded speed and keep an armor check penalty of one, while giving a boost to your AC. Of course, there's the potential that you wouldn't ever get the money for the breastplate if you end around level 5, so if you know the campaign's ending soon and you're sitting on 2-3000 gold, just grab an enchantment for your weapon and/or armor.
Weapons:
Ranged: I suggest the longbow. Other than if your GM gets very picky about how tall things are for putting them in bags and such, the shortbow doesn't have any advantage over the longbow, except for a single pound lighter which won't mean much.
Melee: It depends on your paladin's playstyle. If you prefer to avoid hits, you'll probably want to go with the scimitar and shield, possibly getting shield focus in whichever you pick. If you're more the "best defence is a good offence" type, go with the falchion.
Since you'll be ending at low level, buffing up your AC as high as possible will be worth more than in a high level campaign--you'll have a potential to not take damage during entire encounters, but you'll also want to play tactically to make sure enemies don't just walk right past you to the squishier folks. However, if that mage decides to be a fighter instead and the druid is set up for direct combat, I would go with the higher damage output falchion--combats will go very fast and it would be more worth it to contribure more to the damage than to survive it longer.
Feats:
I would be hesitant about getting point blank shot without also getting precise shot. There'll be two main problems depending on how your party is set up:
Party is mostly ranged (i.e. mage, spell-focused druid, rogue of any type): You will be in melee whether you want to or not--if only the rogue has a melee weapon drawn, chances are some monsters will be running past towards the other three. In this party setup, I would ditch point blank completely and focus on melee--possibly Dodge or Shield focus if you want to be defensive, or Cleave if you want to be offensive.
Party is mostly melee (fighter, combat-focused druid, melee rogue): all your party will constantly be in melee, so you'll always have a -4 on your attacks for firing into melee except for the first round if you're top in initiative. At those beginner levels, a -4 to hit will completely cripple you. In this case (assuming you want to go ranged), drop power attack and grab precise shot.
Take these all with a grain of salt, mind you. I will readily admit that the only paladin I've ever played is the "lawful stupid tank" you specifically don't want to be, so most of these suggestions are from observations I've made from others over the years.

Dasrak |

The advantage of shortbow over longbow is that you can use it while mounted. If you're going to go with a bonded mount, then shortbow is preferable. If you're going to go with the bonded weapon, the longbow is more appealing.
As for melee weapons, you probably want to go with damage dice over critical threat range. Weapon finesse is another consideration, as you will benefit quite significantly from a finessable weapon. Greatsword is probably your best bet for a two-handed weapon if you want to go down that road, but a longsword or rapier would work well if you want the one-handed option.
Otherwise, your stats are positively kick-ass so I wouldn't worry too much about your build.
and 1 Mage (or a Fighter he is still undecided).
He might want to consider the path of an Eldritch Knight, even though your campaign technically is ending before he can qualify. Unlike some of the other prestige classes (ie; Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster) this one actually functions quite well at lower levels and is fun to play all the way through.

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Goodness you certainly rolled well for stats!
I think I'll suggest also picking up Precise shot in place of Power Attack. You can certainly do well without that for a little bit given your split attention.
Really though it is a good idea to at least have some idea what kind of things your party is going to hope that your paladin will do of course.

The Crusader |

Forget the shield. You'll never get any use out of it. You don't ever want to be in melee with this build. If an enemy closes to melee, you don't want to spend an action drawing a weapon, then drawing and equipping a shield. Archery is very feat intensive, so your not taking Quick Draw feat to get your shield out and equipped in time.
Get a buckler and a spiked gauntlet. You can always have those equipped. Then, if an enemy closes, you can simply drop your bow as a free action, and you are already armed and armored. Bucklers don't interfere with ranged attacks. MW Bucklers have 0 armor check penalty.
You don't really want Power Attack either, since you'll be low level, everything needs to go into archery. Drop it and take either Precise Shot, to eliminate some of the penalties for ranged, or Deadly Aim, which is basically Power Attack for ranged.

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You said Core rulebook only so the following may not fly. But it might be worth asking your GM
The book Paths of Prestige has a prestige class (Champion or Irori) that is designed to make a Monk/Paladin quite effective. I'm playing a character in PFS that is almost ready to enter the class (he is Level 5, the minimum level to get into the class is L6) and he has been reasonably effective so far. He doesn't do as much damage as a straight paladin but he has a whole slew of things to make up for that (absurd defences with Crane Style, great flexibility with martial weapons, monk weapons and unarmed stikes, a lot of mobility, etc)
Its PFS so I got to take the Divine Hunter archetype which helps a little.
Edit: I just realized that a lot of his tricks come from the Advanced Players Guide. With just the core rulebook monks pretty much suck. So, never mind.

Baffo |
Ok, some news from my group:
Druid is going to be our healer (O.o)
Thief is ranged
Last one decided for wizard.
From what I see everyone is going to be squishier than me, so my group is going to assume that I'll be in melee sometime, that's why I think I can't go full archer. Still I like the hybrid ranged/melee.
The idea is to poke the enemy from range, but then going melee at a certain point. Does a thing like DEX tank exist? Thank to "The Crusader" I didn't know that I needed a full action to remove/equip shield (I thought was instant) so leaning toward the buckler, but spiked gauntlets??

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It's true that a paladin based around Dex isn't going to be quite as heavy on damage, but that's somewhat counteracted by the fact that your defenses are going to be better, overall. (Not in terms of regular AC - full plate is the king there - but in terms of touch AC, CMD, Reflex saves, etc.) And getting to go first - while not as vital as it is for a rogue - does allow you to engage the foe before they can get at the thief or wizard.
One way to run the 'hybrid' you suggest is to employ weapons that allow Weapon Finesse and also have range increments, so you can throw whenever you'd rather not close: Quick Draw helps out with this.

Byrdology |

Core only? The two best combat styles you can have are 2hw and archery, not nescisarily in that order. Stick with 18 in str, 16 +2 from human in dex, and a 15 in cha. Bump cha at lvl 4, and str from there. Your 2 human feats are quick draw and power attack. Get a comp longbow with a +4 str mod and start out at ranged and quick draw your falchion for melee. All the rest of your feats should go to archery because your melee is taken care of with power attack. Take the weapon bond to get holy for either weapon and sit back and tank/ dpr your heart out. Get a mithril b-plate and pump str from there out. 18 dex does more than enough for archery, 20 max with a +2 dex belt.
Have fun, kick ass, take names, and smite hard!

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Similar to what Lincoln Hills said, a dex tank very much exists. While your AC will be the same whether you have an 18 dex and a +1 chain shirt compared to a 10 dex with full plate (which costs marginally more than the +1 chain shirt), your touch and flat-footed AC will be more balanced. Flat-footed can get you sneak attacked, but touch will matter for alot of spells that are the bane of the armor tank.
Melee/ranged hybrids are hard to pull off, but can work well if you have a party that likes sneaking up on things and shooting them before the full melee really begins. If you try this, I have a big suggestion that you cannot ignore: use terrain to your advantage. If you make sure the enemy cannot get to you in one round, being able to do both ranged and melee will be useful. If you're always starting combat in a 30 by 30 room with flat floors and no cover, and you're expecting to also be the front liner most of the time, that bow will be next to useless.
As for the spiked gauntlet, big yes. The advantage is that because it's also part of your armor, you will always have it equipped (unless you're caught sleeping), allowing you to get attacks in if an enemy closes with you faster than you expected and didn't draw a weapon. It does not count as an unarmed strike so you don't provoke an attack of opportunity. You can never be disarmed of it, so you always have it as a backup weapon. And for your build, it is a light weapon and so would count for weapon finesse. I would suggest spending the extra 5 gold to have it be cold iron as well (my frontliners usually have a cold iron spiked gauntlet on one hand and a silvered one on the other).
On that note I also suggest weapon finesse. Especially since you changed your stats to give a higher dex, weapon finesse is going to give you an extra +3 to hit with anything it applies to, which is a pretty big deal. It does mean you'll have to change out your scimitar to something else--I would suggest the rapier as I've gathered you like high crit ranges, and I would keep a dagger/kukri and a light hammer somewhere on you, for when you run into things that piercing damage is ineffective to. Maybe a sap, if you expect to need to do nonlethal.
At the same time, I might reconsider putting that racial bonus back into charisma--for paladins, this is one of your most important stats, giving a bonus to all your saves, your attack and AC when using smite evil, how often you can use Lay on Hands, and your spells. This is arguably more important than +1 on attacks and your touch AC (your normal AC would be made up by wearing a chain shirt instead of studded leather). However, this is up to you, both are useful. Just keep it in mind.

Baffo |
Thank you again I think this will be my final build:
STR 14
DEX 20 (18 + 2 as human)
CON 15
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 16
ARMOR:
Studded leather (didn't have the money for the Chain =\ )
Buckler
WEAPONS:
Longbow
Kukri
Rapier
Spiked Gauntlets
FEATS:
Weapon Finesse
Power Attack
FINAL THOUGHTS:
I prefer to leave the racial bonus on dex, since being a very short campaign I won't get to use much spells, and the smite will still be limited in usages. I got a kukri for having a different damage than piercing, and spiked gauntlet because of the nice suggestions.
Buckler is there for a little bit more AC and because is always equipped.
I didn't take Quick Draw since, from the rules, I understand that with a BAB of 1 or more I can draw the weapons as part of the movement: "Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement."
Weapon Finesse because I can use DEX with each one of my chosen weapons, Power Attack because I would like to see how a 2h wielded rapier + weapon finesse + smite evil + power attack is going to work =P
Future feats will be decided after the first session when I can figure out which one could be more useful for me =]
Thanks again, I will let you know of what horrible dead my paladin died =P

Piccolo |

Do not take Power attack. It is pointless in the lower levels. You are merely shafting yourself.
Try using Dodge and Mobility to set up flanking with the Rogue. Add Outflank with said Rogue around 5th-6th level. Trust me, this benefits both you and the Rogue. Do not build in a vacuum as you have been, recall that you have a guy with huge flanking bennies in the group, so WORK with him!

Lemmy |

1st thing to do when playing a Paladin:
Find out how much of an ass your GM is about Paladin codes. Also,if you're going for a archer Paladin, Power Attack is not necessary.
If you want a melee Paladin, maybe getting
1st level: Weapon Finesse & Combat Reflexes
3rd level: Dervish Dance
5th level: Power Attack

Lemmy |

power attack is not good in the low levels, better to get weapon focus since it is always on
Well, 5th level is when PA starts giving you a real benefit, IMO.
I'm not a big fan of WF because it's only useful 5% of the time. And it's so freaking boring. PA then Furious Focus at might be a better idea.

therealthom |

Do not take Power attack. It is pointless in the lower levels. You are merely shafting yourself.
Try using Dodge and Mobility to set up flanking with the Rogue. Add Outflank with said Rogue around 5th-6th level. Trust me, this benefits both you and the Rogue. Do not build in a vacuum as you have been, recall that you have a guy with huge flanking bennies in the group, so WORK with him!
I beg to differ with the first paragraph. Depending on the foe's AC and hit points, Power Attack can work well for a two-hander with a good strength bonus. It depends on the challenges before you.
The second paragraph is gold. Teamwork pays.

Piccolo |

I would far rather get weapon focus, Improved Initiative, etc simply because they are constantly in play, and thus always benefit you. That 5% figure is a bit misleading, as it seems higher attack rolls tend to help more overall. Plus, it renders one eligible for weapon specialization and lots of other feats.
Power attack only comes into play when you actually recall that you should use it, and its effect is limited in the lower levels anyway. It just isn't all that useful on its own in the low levels. 2 handed weapon users really should focus on their defenses in the low levels instead, as they are down in AC compared to your standard sword and shield warrior type, and Fighter tend to have crappy saves anyway. Better to invest in Iron Will and the like for a more rounded character.

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I would far rather get weapon focus, Improved Initiative, etc simply because they are constantly in play, and thus always benefit you. That 5% figure is a bit misleading, as it seems higher attack rolls tend to help more overall. Plus, it renders one eligible for weapon specialization and lots of other feats.
Power attack only comes into play when you actually recall that you should use it, and its effect is limited in the lower levels anyway. It just isn't all that useful on its own in the low levels. 2 handed weapon users really should focus on their defenses in the low levels instead, as they are down in AC compared to your standard sword and shield warrior type, and Fighter tend to have crappy saves anyway. Better to invest in Iron Will and the like for a more rounded character.
Except that Pallies can't get Weapon Specialization...no matter how good they are. :p

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I almost forgot my most important advice for Baffo and any other first-time paladin player:
Get your paladin code in writing. Your GM and you, the player, are almost certain to have different views of what "lawful," "good," and "honorable" mean, as well as which of those three has the highest priority in any given situation. If you know in advance what your particular paladin's rules are, you will avoid a lot of later arguments - as well as eliminating the possibility of falling from grace through sheer misunderstanding.
As a GM, I have a habit of creating 'ten commandments' rules for anybody who runs a cleric, inquisitor, etc. in my campaign - essentially prioritizing the directives of the faith according to A) the god's directives and goals, B) the church's nature, and C) the individual priest's alignment and personality - in that order. I chose the number ten quite arbitrarily - I think there were ten commandments in some book I read at some point - and it works quite well since it's short enough to squeeze out the unimportant stuff and long enough to include one or two directives that stand out from all the other faiths of the same alignment.

Piccolo |

One of the things I was always curious about was if a Paladin could take goods from graves or from the dead. You'd think no, but too many games expect one to kick some undead butt and take their gear.
Paladins don't get Weapon Specialization; I used that as an example of flat numerical bonuses that always apply being more valuable than those that only occasionally apply (even if the latter are greater). Always-on feats are no brainers, since you can't forget you have them, and you can't forget to activate them. The more squishy the PC is, the more they desperately need Improved Initiative, for example, or they might not get off their vaunted BOOM before they get nailed.
One of the things I advise my players is to take the saving throw feats for their poor class saves, because PC's tend to endure a lot more than your standard NPC and are expected to immediately fight off other NPC's on top of making saving throws for debilitating or deadly effects. If the party stops to rest in the dungeon/adventure, the bad guys will react accordingly and muster their remaining forces, meaning the next few battles might not take place WHEN the players want and even worse, might be a lot tougher than they are used to.
Will saves are the least rolled out of all the saves, but the consequences of failure are greater, seeing as how most players hate losing control of their PCs with a passion.
Fort saves seem to be the most often rolled, what with diseases, poisons, and lots of creature effects.
Your typical melee combatant kinda needs good reflex saves, if only to help negate the Fireball the party wizard just chucked! Friendly fire happens too damned often, imho.

LurkingEye |

One of the things I was always curious about was if a Paladin could take goods from graves or from the dead. You'd think no, but too many games expect one to kick some undead butt and take their gear.
Hi piccolo. I can only advise you on palidens at my table and my thoughts on this.
When Palidins or anyone are kicking undead butt, if they find anything of value they aren't robbing graves. Anything a Palidin finds while helping fight unquiet spirits can help in his holy war against evil and things that should stay dead.
If the Palidin went to the local cemetery and started digging people up to look for jewelery or other items, thats another matter entirely.
If the local laws are lawful. then the Palidin needs to follow them. Yes you can take items from the evil vile undead things. It is against the law to dig up your neighbours uncle and take the things he was laid to rest with. So, if your neighbours uncle gets up and attacks you,its okay to take his ring.