To make one thing clear, this isn't a hate thread or anything. I've not dm'd for gunslingers yet and have no idea how to make the combat challenging for em. As it is, our current slinger has +16 to hit at 10th level, which means he basically needs 2 on die to hit most enemies, seeing as can't think of any with more than 18 touch ac except the level 8 monks in NPC Index.
He's using pistols and short range what what it's worth.
people closing in to mess with the--since they have to stay relatively close to get their 'hit touch AC' shtick working (until they're able to threaten melee)--especially enemies with reach (so they cant just five-foot step back and fire as normal). environmental stuff like wet conditions and vision obscuring things like illusions, fog, smoke, etc. things with high touch AC (like monks) or things that they cant hit normally (incorporeals, etc.) are a pain, and various status effects like blinded can ruin their day.
off the top of my head, take with a grain of salt because i'm pretty terrible at system stuff.
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Close on him, he should be pretty close unless he is using up all of his grit on using touch attacks on anything beyond 20ft.
Surround him with mooks; they should get Aoo unless he has taken some feats to prevent this.
Have archers shooting him from 200ft away, they have a -2 due to range increments he is at -8 due to the same range.
Have something that can absorb a lot of this damage like zombies who need DR/slashing. Zombie Giants are fun although you need to arrange the combat for this otherwise they will just retreat and keep up the ranged attacks.
Simple spells like Entropic Shield cause a 20% miss chance. Wind wall will give at least a 30% miss chance.
Illusions take no damage when they get shot but will allow a save to realize after the fact.
Damp powder prevents the firing of the weapon; the spell and the fact that gunpowder can get damp.
There are plenty of other options which I am sure will be pointed out.
Gunslingers are fun and they are great in the right enviroment.
Have fun
Sic
Snap and Improved Snap gives him 15ft threat range, they'll be shot the moment they try closing in, and unless they are large with glaives, reach weapons won't work.
I guess fog and smoke can work. Downside is that it'll also hinder the mobs, I can't pull off smoke tossing people who ignore the smoke all the time. No incorporeals in the campaign for a good long while.
The archers are still a good option.
At 200 ft away he's at a good penalty (-8, if Pixie is correct) and more importantly HE'S NO LONGER ATTACKING TOUCH AC (since that's over 5 range increments away).
Of course, unless you're on a plain in Spain mainly in the rain this won't be an option a lot of the time, but oh well.
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Thanks Rynjin,
I had a panic thinking I had done the math wrong .. (which is not outside the realms of possibility I have to agree) So I had to re-do it; thinking on it 200 ft away would be 9 range increments which if the pistol would fire that far would be at I think -18 not -8 ...
100 ft away would be at -8.
Plus if it is on this plain .. in the rain .. then his power could be wet anyway ... :)
Sic
The archers are still a good option.
At 200 ft away he's at a good penalty (-8, if Pixie is correct) and more importantly HE'S NO LONGER ATTACKING TOUCH AC (since that's over 5 range increments away).
Of course, unless you're on a plain in Spain mainly in the rain this won't be an option a lot of the time, but oh well.
I considered that. And it'll work for an encounter. Maybe two. If I keep tossing 200ft archers, it'll become very boring both for me and the players, as I'd be royally screwing over the team to make combat a little hard for one class.
Not to mention he can negate the 200ft range by getting a wand of fog, stay out of sight, or use smoke.
Thanks Rynjin,
I had a panic thinking I had done the math wrong .. (which is not outside the realms of possibility I have to agree) So I had to re-do it; thinking on it 200 ft away would be 9 range increments which if the pistol would fire that far would be at I think -18 not -8 ...
100 ft away would be at -8.
Plus if it is on this plain .. in the rain .. then his power could be wet anyway ... :)
Sic
Wouldn't every gunslinger with half a brain get a Beneficial Bandolier for meager 2,000gp, which keeps his powder not only dry, but reloads a barrel as a swift action?
So basically keep him away from combat (200ft reach he might as well sit in cover till archers have no arrows.) or use an npc tactic that might screw over other players.
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Basically treat him as a wizard, except without the amazing reality bending utility, just short range rays (and if he gets unlucky his fingers break).
The Beneficial Bandolier only works once per round (though its a good thing to have, I guess) then he has to use Alchemical Cartridges again to reload as free.
Also 200 ft while technically is 9 or 10 range increments is not a -18 but a -infinity, because Pistols (and all primitive firearms) only have 5 range increments max :)
In other words anything 100ft+ away is immune to him. Anything 20 feet away not only makes him take penalties but also apply their entire AC.
Enemies can also use Acrobatics to tumble through his threatened area and get in range to whack him in the face. Or heck, they eat an AoO on the way in and then box him in and kill him.
Also one thing to keep in mind: Gunslingers are brutal yes, but their utility outside of combat is severely limited. They do damage and little else.
So be careful to not take away the one thing where he can shine too often.
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I think a ranged duel between a gunslinger and a well-built elven archer could be pretty good bragging fuel if you survive it...
Have you seen Enemy At The Gates?
I think a ranged duel between a gunslinger and a well-built elven archer could be pretty good bragging fuel if you survive it...
Have you seen Enemy At The Gates?
While the idea sounds nifty, it's still a party game. If the archers snipe from 200ft, that means that the party martial classes are in deep doo-doo as well until they manage to charge down the archers (if they can charge em down).
The fact that ha can use a bow or rifle himself for those 200ft archers doesn't help.
In my last session I had an enemy run away, and it took them like 10 rounds of chasing to catch her again (enemy tried to lay an ambush further ahead), and the melee fighter with 20 ft movement fell more and more behind.
Wasn't really a fun scene for anyone, tbh. So I would avoid situations where suddenly 3/4 of the group are forced to spend multiple rounds just moving and do nothing.
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Wouldn't every gunslinger with half a brain get a Beneficial Bandolier for meager 2,000gp, which keeps his powder not only dry, but reloads a barrel as a swift action?
According to the PRD:
Price 1,000 gp; Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Weight 2 lbs.
This bandolier is made of finely tanned leather. It has slots for up to 200 rounds of ammunition. Pellets and black powder are kept in tiny individual pouches, and bullets in small loops. The bandolier alters itself as needed to accommodate both. There are also places on the beneficial bandolier for a gunsmith's kit and a powder horn. Regardless of what quantities of these items are placed within the beneficial bandolier, its weight does not change.
As a swift action, the wearer can command a single round of ammunition from the beneficial bandolier to teleport into a firearm of the appropriate type that he is wielding.
I am definitely going to have to buy this for my Gunslinger. Way too cool.
Note that a swift action is only usable once per turn. And, this will not allow you to do iterative attacks (only a free action would allow that).
Ok, but let's get back to the discussion at hand.
First of all, make sure you are enforcing misfires. This is important, because the only way to get reloads as a free action is to use paper cartridges (unless you are using advanced firearms, which it doesn't sound like you are doing). Of course, he could have Reliable pistols, but if not... also make sure he is tracking ammo... it has been my experience ammunition can get quite pricy. Also, it does have weight, though perhaps not much. 10 shots in a powderhorm weighs 2 pounds, I think... and 30 rounds weighs 1/2 pound. Given that he'll want his mobility (since he uses light armor, I assume), weight can be an issue.
Make it so that he isn't always able to safely get into the first range band (which is only 20'). Have opponents with reach weapons (Ogres with Long Spears?), and melee fighters with Step Up and Strike (can react to a 5' step by following and AOO). Get him into melee range where he cannot easily get away (of course, he probably has Acrobatics at a good check, but this isn't a guarantee).
Spellcasters (or others with potions) can use Obscuring Mists, Blur, Displacement, or Blink (giving miss chances). Monks can use Deflect Arrows (I am pretty sure this works with bullets as well... since there isn't an exception). Use spells like Murderous Command or Greater Command (or other enchantments) since his Will save is his poorest one.
You could also blast away at him with touch based spells as well. Or, since he uses pistols, bring in a Musket Master against him... better range and damage, and after 4th level, the same reload rate.
Also one thing to keep in mind: Gunslingers are brutal yes, but their utility outside of combat is severely limited. They do damage and little else.
So be careful to not take away the one thing where he can shine too often.
I have to disagree with this one. They are a 4+ skill class, and have a decent set of skills. Munny (my Gunslinger) has a decent Diplomacy, and excellent Perception skill, and a couple of good knowledge skills (Local and Engineering).
Note that a swift action is only usable once per turn. And, this will not allow you to do iterative attacks (only a free action would allow that).A swift action can be used anytime you could use a free action - the only difference is that you can only use one per round.
Non the less, it's 1000gp to make gunslinger life way easier, basically storing bunch of ammo, powder and reloading one shot per turn (unless using swift for another thing.)
Thanks for all the tips, I'll just try applying a few of those things without making the fights too cheesy.
Hello there, folks. I'd be the gunslinger in question.
Now I know that its probably poor form to peek in on a GM's thread (Hi Corvo!), but I'm genuinely curious as to what could contribute to being a challenge to a gunslinger. I've already discussed with my GM much of what's been said in this thread as advice for challenging my character, but I'm curious as to what the forums-at-large can provide.
Anyway some additional details on the character in question.
(Note: We're playing a high-power gestalt game with spare feats among other things.)
- His gunslinger archetype is Gulch Gunner, which specializes in close-quarter gunplay.
- His total levels are Gunslinger 10(Gulch Gunner)/Ranger 8(Yokai Hunter)/Shield Marshal 2 (Also known as the Grand Marshal PrC on d20pfsrd.com)
- His primary firearm is a +1 pepperbox pistol.
- He's taken the Point-Blank Master and False Opening feats for his pepperbox pistol in addition to said Snap Shot/Imp. Snap Shot feats.
- He has Blind-Fight.
Oh, and on the Bandoleer... it is a Belt slot, so wearing this will prevent you from having belts of DEX, CON, or anything else (though in a Home Game, you could potentially combine effects).
Still, I think Munny will be getting one... will work well for him for at least a few levels!
Item combining is in the magic craft rules. It's a +50% price to the item being added, so it's canon.
Gunslingers either are very close to the enemy, where they can be easily full attacked, or far enough to not be able to target touch AC.
Really, the range increment of firearms is about 20~30ft, hell, one-handed firearms have 10ft~20ft range, not much different than a Fighter/Barbarian with a reach weapon and/or Lunge. It's not exactly hard to stay out of it or get close enough to melee the Gunslinger
If you manage to get two enemies into flanking position around the Gunslinger, he now can't 5 ft step away anymore, he will always be in at least one threatened area.
Just be careful: Do stuff that specifically foils gunslingers only occationally otherwise the player will feel singled out, and rightfully so.
Gunslingers either are very close to the enemy, where they can be easily full attacked, or far enough to not be able to target touch AC.
Really, the range increment of firearms is about 20~30ft, hell, one-handed firearms have 10ft~20ft range, not much different than a Fighter/Barbarian with a reach weapon and/or Lunge. It's not exactly hard to stay out of it or get close enough to melee the Gunslinger
Not sure how being in melee is a challenge. As it is, with feats, there's no AoO for shooting, and he has the threat range of 15. Anyone sneezes and he can shoot their face off.
Gunslinger also has high HP die, can use Medium Armor with little issue and has decent dex, so it's not like he's easier to hit in melee than a barbarian.
Gunslingers either are very close to the enemy, where they can be easily full attacked, or far enough to not be able to target touch AC.
Really, the range increment of firearms is about 20~30ft, hell, one-handed firearms have 10ft~20ft range, not much different than a Fighter/Barbarian with a reach weapon and/or Lunge. It's not exactly hard to stay out of it or get close enough to melee the Gunslinger
Not sure how being in melee is a challenge. As it is, with feats, there's no AoO for shooting, and he has the threat range of 15. Anyone sneezes and he can shoot their face off.
Gunslinger also has high HP die, can use Medium Armor with little issue and has decent dex, so it's not like he's easier to hit in melee than a barbarian.
1 - The feat to shoot without provoking is a Fighter feat (although Rangers also ahve access to it).
2 - IIRC, reloading also provokes AoO.
3 - So what? The Fighter/Barbarian with a Lunge is good at close combat too. That doesn't make a class OP. Gunslingers are basically melee characters with Dervish Dance and slightly greater reach.
- Gunslingers have poor will saves and short range increments. Any decent spell caster can screw them quite easily. (the SADness of the class and focus on Wisdom helps a little with that, though)
- Gunslingers have little out of combat utility. (They're better than Fighters, of course, but still nothing to write home about.)
- Gunslingers have an inbuilt "fumble" mechanic. Fighter rolls a 1: Misses an attack. Gunslinger rolls a 1: There goes his weapon (sometimes a 2 or 3 will do the trick too). (There are some expensive enchantments to fix this problem)
- Gunslingers use very expensive weapons and ammo.
- Gunslingers are pretty bad at dealing with Invisible enemies, flying enemies (who are smart enough to be more than 30ft away from them), spell casters and intangible enemies. (this could be said about pretty much every martial class, and Gunslingers are no exception)
Gunslingers are useful and efficient, but they're are far from OP. They deal lots of damage, but little else.
I find Barbarians and Paladins to be considerably more powerful and I don't consider either class to be OP.
Couple of things that can work, but
Introduce a miss chance:
entropic shield, blur, displacement, etc.
Remove visibility to the target:
Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Blindness, Wall of Fire (really any wall) can block line of sight for the gunslinger.
Grapple Him:
Black Tentacles, or grappling creatures.
Most likely any will based saving throw (ranger and gun slinger have poor will saves). Hold person, Hideous Laughter, Suggestion, etc
Creatures with gaze attacks (especially will based ones) since the gunslinger likes to be relatively close.
Lunge with a Reach weapon. Tumbling
Gunslingers either are very close to the enemy, where they can be easily full attacked, or far enough to not be able to target touch AC.
Really, the range increment of firearms is about 20~30ft, hell, one-handed firearms have 10ft~20ft range, not much different than a Fighter/Barbarian with a reach weapon and/or Lunge. It's not exactly hard to stay out of it or get close enough to melee the Gunslinger
Not sure how being in melee is a challenge. As it is, with feats, there's no AoO for shooting, and he has the threat range of 15. Anyone sneezes and he can shoot their face off.
Gunslinger also has high HP die, can use Medium Armor with little issue and has decent dex, so it's not like he's easier to hit in melee than a barbarian.
1 - The feat to shoot without provoking is a Fighter feat (although Rangers also ahve access to it).
2 - IIRC, reloading also provokes AoO.
3 - So what? The Fighter/Barbarian with a Lunge is good at close combat too. That doesn't make a class OP. Gunslingers are basically melee characters with Dervish Dance and slightly greater reach.
- Gunslingers have poor will saves and short range increments. Any decent spell caster can screw them quite easily. (the SADness of the class and focus on Wisdom helps a little with that, though)
- Gunslingers have little out of combat utility. (They're better than Fighters, of course, but still nothing to write home about.)
- Gunslingers have an inbuilt "fumble" mechanic. Fighter rolls a 1: Misses an attack. Gunslinger rolls a 1: There goes his weapon (sometimes a 2 or 3 will do the trick too). (There are some expensive enchantments to fix this problem)
- Gunslingers use very expensive weapons and ammo.
- Gunslingers are pretty bad at dealing with Invisible enemies, flying enemies (who are smart enough to be more than 30ft away from them), spell casters and intangible enemies. (this could be said about pretty much every martial class, and Gunslingers are no exception)...
Point-Blank Master: Prerequisite: Weapon Specialization with selected ranged weapon.
The problem isn't that a gunslinger is good in melee. The problem is that he's rolling to see if he misfires, because he can't miss unless the enemy is a tiny level 8 monk.
Note that the GM waived most 'tax feats' like weapon focus/specialization.
Note that the GM waived most 'tax feats' like weapon focus/specialization.
FOR JUSTICE!
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Dealing with a gunslinger is easy, all it requires is a 4 letter word: FIRE.
Anytime Black powder is exposed to Fire (or electricity) it explodes.
The only thing that prevents it from exploding (a powder horn) prevents the gunslinger from making iterative attacks (which needs paper/metal cartridges to do).
No, just start throwing around a few fireballs, lightning bolts or alchemist fire (or hellhounds, I love hellhounds) and watch the Gunslinger explode and then cry as every alchemical cartridge on his body is instantly destroyed.
(note: It won't do damage to the Gunslinger but it will cost him a fortune and stop him from attacking until he replaces his ammo.)
Black powder is the key explosive component within a firearm that enables it to function, but in larger amounts this alchemical material can be quite destructive on its own as well. A single dose of black powder is enough to power a single shot from most one-handed and two-handed firearms, while 10 doses are required to fire a cannon. Black powder is often stored and transported in kegs (which hold 100 doses), but in this quantity the powder itself becomes dangerous.
Exposure to fire, electricity, or a misfire explosion causes black powder to explode—a single keg that explodes in this manner deals 5d6 points of fire damage to anyone within a 20-foot burst (DC 15 Reflex half ). Storing black powder in a powder horn protects the powder from explosion.
Would a beneficial bandolier protect ammo against the elements like a powder horn would?
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Note that the GM waived most 'tax feats' like weapon focus/specialization.FOR JUSTICE!
Well, you did boost his class. Nothing game-breaking, though. Personally, I have no problem with Gunslingers having access to Point-Blank Master. He did just spend 3 feats simply to make AoO without provoking AoO. And a 4th one to increase the range of Said AoO. What could a Barbarian, Ranger or Fighter do with those 4 feats? (5, if you count Combat Reflexes).
Now, all my other points are still valid.
Simply give the Gunslinger a challenge that requires more than shooting stuff. Let's see how good he's at stealth, when all his weapons are incredibly loud and flashy.
His CMD won't be incredible either, since he most likely isn't boosting Str. Trip, Grapple and Disarm are your friends.
Note that the GM waived most 'tax feats' like weapon focus/specialization.FOR JUSTICE!Well, you did boost his class. Nothing game-breaking, though. Personally, I have no problem with Gunslingers having access to Point-Blank Master. He did just spend 3 feats simply to make AoO without provoking AoO. And a 4th one to increase the range of Said AoO. What could a Barbarian, Ranger or Fighter do with those 4 feats? (5, if you count Combat Reflexes).
Now, all my other points are still valid.
Simply give the Gunslinger a challenge that requires more than shooting stuff. Let's see how good he's at stealth, when all his weapons are incredibly loud and flashy.
His CMD won't be incredible either, since he most likely isn't boosting Str. Trip, Grapple and Disarm are your friends.
CMD uses dexterity, which no gunslinger will be lacking.
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Would a beneficial bandolier protect ammo against the elements like a powder horn would?
Nope, there is nothing in the description for the bandolier that states that. Also according to that description it actually makes your bullets more likely to be affected by the elements now.
Price 1,000 gp; Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th; Weight 2 lbs.This bandolier is made of finely tanned leather. It has slots for up to 200 rounds of ammunition. Pellets and black powder are kept in tiny individual pouches, and bullets in small loops. The bandolier alters itself as needed to accommodate both. There are also places on the beneficial bandolier for a gunsmith's kit and a powder horn. Regardless of what quantities of these items are placed within the beneficial bandolier, its weight does not change.
As a swift action, the wearer can command a single round of ammunition from the beneficial bandolier to teleport into a firearm of the appropriate type that he is wielding.
edit: @Corvo Spiritwind, CMD uses Dex & Strength, since most Gunslingers either tank strength or keep it low they will have relatively low CMD's as they level compared to pure fighter-types.
Yeah, their BAB and Good Dex will give them a decent CMD, but not incredible. CMD also uses Strength.
If you can trip/disarm/grapple a Fighter, you can do it to a Gunslinger.
And if Gunslinger is flat-footed... (I dunno, maybe those super-intelligent Dragons, or really, any enemy with half a brain, will consider using invisibility spells.) His CMD is pretty low.
It'll be fun seeing him trying to get out of a grapple.
Now, maybe he has ranks in escape artist... That's a pretty high skill investment in a skill that is not all that useful, especially for a full BAB character. So once more, he and to invest more resources to be able to do what any martial character does naturally.
Alternatively... You could use rain. It doesn't have to be a sunny day every day.
Gunslingers are okay.
I think the simplest and easiest thing to do is houserule that Gunslingers don't get touch attacks at all. They have full BAB, so it will be just like any archer or melee character in terms of potential ability to hit the enemy. I have instituted this house rule and while definitely decreasing the potential lethality of a gunslinger, it also makes them much more managable in combat as a GM. If you remove the touch AC bit, I don't think they pose any serious problems afterwards that melee or archer characters don't pose.
Whoa whoa whoa...you mean he isn't dual wielding double barrel pistols and a third arm from Alchemy so he can fire his max attacks per round from Rapid Fire, Firing BOTH Barrels, and TWF?
Consider yourself lucky...
Make him fight more Monks or things with higher touch AC.
We're using a highly modified Rise of the Runelords. No goblin monks gonna appear anytime soon. On the other hand, goblin alchemists with rocket bombs and alchemist fire is always fun!
I think the simplest and easiest thing to do is houserule that Gunslingers don't get touch attacks at all. They have full BAB, so it will be just like any archer or melee character in terms of potential ability to hit the enemy. I have instituted this house rule and while definitely decreasing the potential lethality of a gunslinger, it also makes them much more managable in combat as a GM. If you remove the touch AC bit, I don't think they pose any serious problems afterwards that melee or archer characters don't pose.
So remove touch attack and misfire chance, but keep the rest, basically trading range for more damage? (a firearm has higher die than a bow of same type)
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I feel your pain. I am DMing Skull and Shackles with a Musket Master. Most of the suggestions here are overcome by feats and deed and are of no use at higher levels, with the exception of concealment. But that only works once in a while. Really the only downside is the stealth thing – bringing down more enemies on their head. But even that is overcome by an oil.
Touch AC is 80 ft. Deft Shootist means he doesn’t provoke firing or reloading. He reloads as a free action. He shoots 4 times per round, hitting each time doing 100 damage total or more if he crits (always confirmed) on a 19-20/x4. Dead shot or clustered shot overcome DR.
And I did not allow characters to take feats and abilities they did not have the pre-reqs for.
And there ain't a lot of monks running around in Skull and Shackles. Plus, do you expect him to have a monk/grapple expert in every enounter? Sort of like do you expect him to have an elven archer in every encounter? That would get real ridiculous, real quick.
Since he usually kills everything that moves in to melee with him before they get to him, I have taken to using teleportation spells to try and trap him. It never works, since he doesn't provoke anymore, but at least it makes him panic for a second.
Then there is the urban barbarian/thug rogue/alchemist who is large with four arms and can make his opponent frightened with an attack for a round EVERY TIME, but that is a different story.
I think the simplest and easiest thing to do is houserule that Gunslingers don't get touch attacks at all. They have full BAB, so it will be just like any archer or melee character in terms of potential ability to hit the enemy. I have instituted this house rule and while definitely decreasing the potential lethality of a gunslinger, it also makes them much more managable in combat as a GM. If you remove the touch AC bit, I don't think they pose any serious problems afterwards that melee or archer characters don't pose.
This could work. The whole "target touch AC" thing makes no sense. I like gunslingers, but I hate PF rules for firearms. How the hell a gun (with iron bullets!) has a harder time trying to damage a cat than a freaking adamantine golem? Are real-life bullet-proof vests actually Vests of Incredible Dexterity?
If you do choose this option, please, reduce the price of firearms and their ammo. And remove the backfire condition.
Invis + grapple = anti gunslinger...
Invis + grapple = anti gunslinger...
Or a molester. Also, he has blind-fight.
@Removal of Touch AC suggestion
I really must protest against this change in rules.
C'mon, Corvo. You already talked me into nerfing the 5 range touch AC for advanced firearms to down to 1 (if/when they ever show up) and agreed to limiting mount/companion actions to only Aid Another actions. Give me at least this to look forward to.