Indeed, however, if I cast enlarge person myself (thus wasting a round) I can still get it to work because of share spells.
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.
This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
However, this only works while Eidolon is bound.
...but Enlarge Person does not have a target of 'you'...?
So research, research, research... No official answer. Lots of opinions, which basically break down as follows: 3/4 probably say that the way it works is that when fused, the Summoner's HP are changed based on the fused Eidolon's con score. About 9/10 say that they way it should work is that the Summoner's HP are not changed when fused.
There is a lot of stuff in the FAQ's, but of course that specific question is never addressed. An interesting point that is Officially confirmed is that the temp hit points given by the eidolon form pretty much cannot be healed in any way, only restored via the Restore eidolon spells. So channeling positive energy, cure spells, and fast healing all have no affect. That was something I had not realized.
Where all of this leaves us, I don't know. I didn't want a rules debate, I just wanted to kill things.
I think the simplest way to go would be to say we'll play as it should be, that the Summoner's HP are not changed, but acknowledge that it is a house rule. It makes little practical difference, avoids the headaches that come with HPs totals changing constantly (and Synthesists all dying when they rage out a la barbarian style), and avoids making anyone radically change their character. Thoughts?
I have re-thought the build (and the advice Re: changing ability points), and I will transfer an intial point off Charisma, to up my Wisdom to 16, drop two fighter levels, and take levels in Monk(Master of Many Styles) and (Ex-)Barbarian.
That way, for a net loss of Weapon Specialization, I pick-up a style, more AC, and more movement speed.
Also, I just want to make sure that I am calculating saves correctly:
Level 2 Summoner 0 0 1 or Paladin 1 0 1
Level 3 Summoner 1 1 0 or Fighter 2 0 0
Level 4 Summoner 0 0 1 or Barbarian 2 0 0
Level 5 Summoner 0 0 0 or Monk 2 2 2
Level 6 Summoner 1 1 1 or Fighter 1 0 0
Saves are based on the Fused stat values, so make sure you have fused and non fused saves mentioned differently.
As for how the saves are calculated a la gestalt, my understanding is that each save is separate, and you take the best of each at the given level.
2 0 2
1 0 1
2 1 0
2 0 1
2 2 2
1 1 1
Edit: I just double checked UA. The above is correct. Determine which class at the level gives you the best Fort save, take that. Determine which gives you the best Ref save, take that. Determine which gives you the best Will save, take that.
Wonderful :-)
This does, of course, mean that my saves are substantially higher than I had expected, due to the way I can carefully 'layer' the levels ;-)
EDIT: Alright, I have made the requisite changes to Raven, and he is ready for review :-)
Just a few quick questions from my part
Do animal companions also get full hitpoints? As I really doubted if a companion would be able to survive our intended encounters, I deliberated of choosing domain powers instead of it.
I take it you are still busy reviewing the last two of the list Rigor, I'll wait for my review then. I might not be able to clarify things as early as tonight though.
So I felt like offering my unbiased two cents on the Synthesist wording. To me their supposed to effectively work like vigor, so while your constitution score is replaced for saves, ability damage, etc.
your actual hit points are just added to by your eidolon's, which of course is subject to being weathered down and killed.
I also don't believe they can obtain any form of damage reduction until much higher level, so outside of a gestalt game (where you can personally gain DR from other sources) it would be almost balanced since once it's dead you lose access to it for the day (I believe, never played a summoner, never going to, hence unbiased) especially since you can't heal the temp hit points as they are temp hit points.
Anyhow, looking forward to my review tomorrow or whenever, I'm still finding things I put in wrong but it's definitely fit for review
Ah, but with the Summon Eidolon spell, you can bring your 'suit' back, even if it has been 'killed' earlier that day (and both of the Synthesists have taken it; after all, why wouldn't you?).
Well that does make a pretty big difference if they can do it more then once a day (let alone five times!! Spontaneous cast much haha), but I'm hardly one to judge. My suit doesn't die and I can take it off as a free action and put it back on as a full-round lol. Still, we are going for overpowered here, no? I mean in a regular session it'd certainly be an issue but I think here it just means we're prepared.
I'd vote for five players even though it certainly dooms my eccentric tank build here as with the two synthesists there will be a TON of damage flying around and it'll quickly get out of hand, even against an EL 10 encounter. still, I volunteer to replace whoever dies first if I don't get taken in the first group as this sounds all sorts of fun!
I put my character against a Hill giant as suggested and realized I had forgotten some key points but it's fixed now. Still can't decide if Keen is worth it but if I don't like it I can change it later with some doing (Soulknife 3.75 for the win haha). I would however accept suggestions to replace whirlwind attack as my sixth level feat. I just can't see him standing that long with his build
Hmmm. So no enlarge person. I'll have to change that spell then. Other than that I think I'm set. I also need to go over my checklist of potential situations we could come across and make sure I have a way of handling them.
Swarms are a big one, though with no pearl of power and no potions of enlarge person I have some money to work with. I'll be running around invisible much of the time (whenever I can't get a flank) and have traps and trapfinding covered. All the synthesists should have wands of infernal healing and/or rejuvenate eidolon (lesser).
I'm gonna continue to try and refine the character until Rigor says we can't anymore.
As for the hill giant, since they need a 20 to hit me, I think I'd do okay against one ;)
Lots of cool opportunities with those variant Aasimar lineages. Question - at the bottom there is a chart of variant abilities. Can I swap my spell like ability for something off of there or would you rather I roll? Basically looking to up Charisma more.
I thought I'd share my checklist of possible situations and how Angelo would deal with them.
Flying enemies - (Angelo can fly)
Foes with DR - (Angelo does high damage per hit)
Foes with energy immunity - (Angelo relies on melee damage)
Deeper darkness - (Lesser evo surge Tremorsense)
Incorporeal - (Lesser evo surge Shadowform)
Swarms - (Fuse grenades, acid splash)
Invisible foes - (Glitterdust/lesser evo surge Tremorsense)
Traps - (+15 perception/trapfinding, +14 disable device on traps)
Ability drain/damage - (Scroll of restore eidolon)
Water - (Lesser evo surge Gills or Swim)
Extreme hot/cold - (Potion of endure elements)
Elemental damage - (Lesser evo surge Immunity)
Burrowing foes - (Lesser evo surge Tremorsense)
Normal fighting wise, round 1 he will vanishing trick and cast Haste, then move into a good position. He will always take a full attack with sneak if that's available to him, burning Ki when necessary to vanish or get an extra attack. If the enemy can be tripped he will try to keep it that way via flurries of trips.
Preferably we could switch off hasting each other to leave 2nd level slots open for Lesser Evolution Surge and Summon Eidolon. First level spell slots will be saved for healing.
I'd appreciate any suggestions on places I could make improvements to the build.
Probably not as impressive as the synthesist builds, but I ran a couple of solos vs a hill giant and wiped the floor with him. Without buffs too.
Rost'Nomn Azahithael
For Aasimar (or Tiefling) variant abilities, you need to roll. I am fine with players rolling to see what they would get (on this thread) and then deciding if they'd like that, or prefer to stick with the default SLA.
Ex.: Aasimar would be Animal Mimicry. Is that better than Daylight? Probably not, so I wouldn't make you take it.
The nature of his abilities aside, he looks like a Spring Attacker type with impressive damage potential (for a Spring Attacker) and a few other abilities. A lot of his abilities up his survivability, so despite relatively (compared to this group anyway) low AC and saves, his has a lot of ways to up those when he needs to, or abilities like Stalwart to avoid them entirely. A lot of those abilities take actions or alter his combat effectiveness (like Combat Expertise though), and since he's already a spring attacker, I'm thinking action economy is going to be an issue. I didn't see anything amiss with his numbers, so that side is ok.
@ Rigor Rictus - Understood.
= "If you die, your body can never be reanimated as an undead creature."
Lame!! I'll stick with the base then. Will probably go Angel-blooded for lineage as well.
I know you said if it isn't too power gamey we could choose.
Would you be okay with +1 Natural Armor Tiefling ability? My AC would be 30 with it, which is good, but not amazing for this challenge.
I did take armor of the pit, and do have a rough background, so I can see her having scars to build up that tough tiefling skin! lol Hope that isn't a weak pitch. Anyway, I will roll if needed. I knew better than to try for the +2 CHA though! For a bard especially!
@Rost'Nomm - At least you wouldn't be fodder to attack the rest of the group should the group encounter a necromancer! ;)
^ Hah! good one Pezmerga. I missed that post about not picking one to power game so I'm going to read through the list proper and see if there is one that works betrer character wise.
I went ahead and made the Breast Plate Mithril (Forgot about Arcane Spell Failure!) and Reduced Buckler to a +2, and the Cloak of Resistance to a +1, and I replaced the +2 str belt with a +2 Str/Dex Belt.
Just so ya know! :D I use herolab, so I am pretty sure the math is all right.
Oh yeah and I sold back the ring of protection +1. Knew I was missing something!
Seems a lot of people do use Herolabs. What's the investment to get the whole Pathfinder package?
I like the concept here, and the character seems cool. If he wanted, and as he spends so much time in Lion form, I'd probably allow him to take the Catfolk Rogue Talent Vicious Claws, with the trade off that like a Knife master, his Sneak Attack would only do d4's when not using natural claws.
Vicious Claws (Ex) A catfolk with this talent uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s, but only when she uses her claws to make the sneak attack. A catfolk rogue must have the cat's claws racial trait before taking this talent.
I don't have a problem with the Darkwood Breastplate; it's functionally the same as Dragonhide. I think 3.5 had a wood that could be used for armour as well, though I can't quite remember anymore.
His BAB is on the low side, though it looks like you got his attack up high enough to compensate. Likewise, AC will be a bit of a problem. I can't remember, do you retain armour AC bonuses while in wild shape?
Other than that, I don't have a lot to say. He's a Wildshape meleeist who uses Pouncing and Sneak attacks from his Scout abilities, plus he's a full caster with Natural Spell.
Don't have much to say on Eoriel. He looks sound. Any gimmicks to him I'm overlooking?
I'd take those Vicious Claws if I had another Rogue Talent available, though if it's free I'll be a very happy lion here. I could drop combat reflexes or Wild Speech for a Rogue Talent, would be a shame too, I'll reserve that for when I reach level 8 hehe.
I retain armour bonuses only when the armor has Wild enchantment on it, that's my most expensive piece of equipment, need a +4 bonus for it, other gear just blends into the form.
Seems a lot of people do use Herolabs. What's the investment to get the whole Pathfinder package?
From LoneWolf (Makers of Herolab)
"The electronic (download) version of Hero Lab costs $29.99. This allows you to use Hero Lab on two separate computers (with free secondary license) and includes one game system of your choice"
The Core set would be the Pathfinder game system you choose. It includes:
Most data from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook, including classes, races, skills, feats, equipment, magic items, and more.
Complete content from the Pathfinder Inner Sea World Guide.
Feats, items, prestige classes and other player content from the Pathfinder Adventure Paths, and similar content from all the old OGL adventure paths.
Full support for Pathfinder Society (organized play) characters, including tracking your Pathfinder Society ID number, modified experience progression, Factions, and Traits. Additional traits from the web supplement are also included.
Standard classes, prestige classes (including the Arcane Archer, Dragon Disciple, Loremaster, Pathfinder Chronicler and more) and NPC classes (Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior).
Standard player character races, all animal companion, familiar, and improved familiar options, and some common alternative races like the Hobgoblin and Drow are available for use.
Also includes NPCs from the Gamemastery Guide, NPC Guide and Rival Guide for GMs to use when creating their adventures.
Supplement packages (Other Books)
Supplement Packages
In addition to the core data listed above, the following supplement packages are now available for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. Once purchased, you can use the content from any package to create Pathfinder characters and NPCs.
The Advanced Player's Guide - $10
Advanced Race Guide - $10
Ultimate Combat - $10
Ultimate Magic - $10
Ultimate Equipment - $10
Bestiary 1,2,3 - $30 (If you want them anyway)
Player Companions are 5 bucks a piece, and thay have packages that include 5 for 20 bucks.
What I did was buy the core, and add a little at a time. Plus you can buy 2 more licenses for like 10 bucks a piece. Thats 4 computers, and you get access to everything bought on all the licenses, which is more than fair. It is best to find someone to help invest, like if you have a gaming group! lol.
I hate picking out the final team, as it means that some of the characters are not going to get to be played.
I hope you all had fun building these characters; I generally find the chance to just sit down and hammer out the crunch on an exploitative build to be a lot of fun, even though such characters are never usually meant to see the light of day.
While I would like to choose everyone, a 10 person game would be rather ungainly, and I would certainly have to up the difficulty of the module. As it is, and seeing the stats I have here, I'm considering doing that anyway. Luckily I have a friend who has a large collection, so I was able to borrow both the other proposed module (I had one of them myself), but also a higher level module I can use if it seems the group is too advanced for the module to present a challenge.
If anyone is having second thoughts about actually playing, and was here more for the enjoyable exercise of creating an overpowered character, let me know asap, so I can invite one of the other players to replace your submission.
As is is, I think the characters I will be taking will be these.
Angelo Fortunato
Raven Hawthorne
Darnak
Rost'Nomn Azahithael
Jeska Green
Please report to the discussion thread.
To all the others, thank you so much for the submissions, as well as for the banter and rules talk. I enjoyed this process a great deal. If anyone backs out along the way, I will be back to invite in a replacement.
** spoiler omitted **
Hitting touch AC out to 100' (5 increments @ 20 ea) and sneak attacking out to 50' will help against most foes, and possibly getting a full attack in the surprise round if my bird and I can sneak up on a foe is brilliant. (On a side note, I'd rather have Lookout with another PC instead of a pet, but built him to be independent as a character for review).
Tried a couple different TWF builds, but kept running into the ammunition capacity wall. At 6 shots, revolvers have to be reloaded frequently - and even if the reload time is a free action (which it is with advanced firearm and rapid reload), they still take a free hand to reload.
I did look at using weapon cords on each gun to reliably drop & reload the guns, since the primary gun would get reloaded every 2 rounds and the offhand every 3, but I thought that might be a bit cheesy (though with Synthesist spam, not as cheesy by comparison!).
Edit: Thanks for the chance!
Well it was fun make the LAF (Local Area fireball) character and I guess he'll probably just become an overpowered boss NPC now. still, have fun everybody and thanks for the opportunity DM Rigor, let us know if someone drops out who your next choice is.
Herolab is a cool program and an absolute godsend when building/auditing Summoners. The price can look expensive if you want to buy everything at once. Personally I have Core+APG+UM+UC for Herolab but none of the bestaries or additional material.
If you really want to dig into it you can make up your own classes and if you do it right you can make most gestalt classes. I've done it before. The only thing HeroLab can't handle gestalt wise is when there are two spellcasting classes, you can only get the spells of one class - you have to track the other spells seperately.
Sorry I didn't have time to build up the arcane caster. I had the stats and feats done but not the itemization, which I was going to finish this evening. Oh well and good luck in the meat grinder.
Thanks for the chance to write up a cool character concept.
Would love to see the game being played out.
Good luck to you all, don't die.
As for next time, to get a bit more flexibility, I'd try a Druid/Monk build with Feral Combat Training instead.