In our own history in the middle ages corpse mutilation would like get you mutilated prior to death. Add the threat that the person was potenially bitten by a vampire and we have cases where the corpse would be staked, beheaded and a communion waffer. Some mortal sins required the corpse beheaded.
The distinction is the likelihood or percieved likelihood of returning as undead.
I have always believed that out of game problems should be handled out of game, not in game. If you make bad stuff happen to them in game because their behavior bothers you out of character, that is an abuse of your authority as GM. Just tell them out of game that it bugs you and tell them that there won't be any speaking to dead, zombies, or other such things if they leave the bodies alone.
I believe the operative phrase is 'mostly intact'. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead
Personally, I see nothing wrong with having a necromancer stitch together a bunch of these and have your..."heroes" run up against them. I would make a point of describing them as very familiar. There is some art out there that shows a footless zombie stumping forward. And the spell does not require a 'perfect' corpse.
Personally, I'd pop them with this even if they turned them into chum.
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Honestly, I don't think it's particularly smart play.
First, they smash the jaw to prevent speak with dead. What are the corpses going to say anyway? "The PCs killed me." That's a problem? They don't want people learning about their actions? They should be proud of what they do, not skulking about in shame.
Then there's preventing reanimation. Any necromancer worth his salt has got all the corpses he needs. And really, zombies of your fallen foes? That's a threat? How is that a different threat than any other zombie of, oh, the cute barmaid in town because there weren't any other convenient corpses lying about?
Resurrection? That's repair you right up, this doesn't matter.
So really, what are they trying to prevent, and is it a real risk to a band of adventurers?
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From the Pathfinder SRD
Revenant
This shambling corpse is twisted and mutilated. Fingers of sharpened bone reach out with malevolent intent.
Reason to Hate (Su)
A revenant’s existence is fueled by its hatred for its murderer. As long as the murderer exists, the revenant exists.
Sense Murderer (Su)
A revenant knows the direction but not the distance to its murderer—this sense can be blocked by any effect that blocks scrying. Against its murderer, a revenant has true seeing and discern lies in effect at all times (CL 20th); these abilities cannot be dispelled.
One for every slain and mutilated foe. They'll soon discover their path leads to having to kill each creature twice - and the second time might be a tad trickier.
S.
Honestly, I don't think it's particularly smart play.
First, they smash the jaw to prevent speak with dead. What are the corpses going to say anyway? "The PCs killed me." That's a problem? They don't want people learning about their actions? They should be proud of what they do, not skulking about in shame.
...I just realized something: what would the mutilation of the jaw hide? There are advantages to sanity. Having a very clear serial killer MO makes speak with the dead useless in the first place unless the pursuers cannot hire or create something with a half decent survival rank. Just follow the trail of corpses. Now that is a way to bring consequences. Heck, have a paladin show up and ask what the heck they are doing. This is not the kind of thing that people ignore when they find it while picking blueberries, so they will get a reputation.
why dont they just burn the bodies? less mess and i think that would fix those problems they are worried about i think
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"So the overarching feel of this campaign veers a bit more towards the heroic side of things and not so much serial killer war crimes..."
It sounds like they've been "trained" by some bad experiences. Hopefully. Unfortunately that can be a very frustrating thing to break. Ingame, having people react like actual people(including the gods in the setting) and everything that entails can help curb this sometimes.
I'd strongly suggest just bringing it up out of game with the group and talking about your misgivings though. With something like this it's probably better to just cut to the chase rather than try subtlety that might not even be noticed.
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Well I would say that you handle it in and out of game you give them a warning something to the effect of it creeping you out. If they continue then in game Im sure from your comments that they have done this to many corpses I would raise all the ghosts and do a TPK as punishment.
I can be a vendictive DM from time to time but they wouldnt fault you since you did warn them.
I most any society, the mutilation of the dead is sadistic (though your group does it for different reasons, I know). They do it for practical reasons but society won't see it that way!!! Think of CSI or shows like it: killing someone in a fight is murder, killing them and mutilating the bodies is sick and garnishes special attention.
How would the friends, family, and allies of those dead people feel about it? Desecrating a corpse puts the outrage factor up by x100!!!!! I mean, you can't even give them a proper burial or allow loved ones to see them for a last time. That's why it is so heinous. People want to bury their dead and pay their last respects.
And once there was a trail of faceless and footless bodies across the countryside...(much like a sadistic serial killer)...I would think that a society or race of people would begin to see a pattern and begin to hunt the sadists down for mutilating the dead. Hire bounty hunters...hire Diviners...track 'em down and mutilate them back.
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In an universe where it is known the undead exist, and magic can raise the dead, or force secrets from them, this is a pragmatic choice, and likely nonevil act.
It is intent that defines evil acts.
Frankly, such a thing is not only not disturbing to me, it is also some thing I would likely do if recently confronted with undead, or had heard rumors of nearby undead or necromancers.
Let it happen off-screen. Simply ask "do you destroy the corpse?", and if they answer "yes", then be done with it.
This is the best way to address the issue in Game....Quick and Simple..
However it sounds like the players are all METAGAMING (using knowledge from previous campaigns and characters) which is a big no no.
But if your players are bothering you, then you should BOTHER them back (thats how it usually works)and teach them a lesson.
Find out EXACTLY how much time is it takes to mutilate and cremate each corpse after combat... Ask Every player what they are doing after combat is over. At first do NOTHING.
When a combat situation happens again... THEN do this:
Scare the players(surprise round... make sure everyone gets a perception check) and have a Balor or perhaps an Evil outsider Demon who teleports and is interested in the party's after combat antics and would like to offer HELP or tips on how to properly mutilate corpses.
Have the Demon do some of the most nastiness and disgusting and revolting things you can imagine to a corpse...
Suggestions include:
-Demon uses UMD with Rod of Resurrection used on a Corpse while the Demon's Two handed Sword is splitting the corpse almost in half, with the re-animated person screaming in agony as he slowly dies again and again with a blood curling scream. Instead of a sword you can have the demon eat the flesh slowly, starting with limbs. Afterwards the DEMON demands a player to EAT someone ALIVE. If they refuse DEMON ROARS into COMBAT.
-Have the Demon hand one of the players a Large Whip made out of flaming Skulls that are constantly moaning in Pain and instruct the player to WHIP the DEmON as he molests a dead corpse. (Give the Player a temporary 24 hour negative level JUST by touching the Two-handed Skull Whip).. Afterwards the Demon takes the whip back and says its the Player's TURN to MOLEST the DEAD Corpse and the DEMON STARTS to WHIP the Player.... if the player refuses the DEMON ROARS into COMBAT
Demon Summons Each of the players parents, siblings, close relatives or family members or friends (perhaps Cohorts or Animal companions and/or Familiars) and Tells the Players they must decide which ONE of them DIES, which one of them gets molested, and which one goes Free... If players cannot decide the Demon suggests a Game of Bone Dice to decide. When the players do not decide, the DEMON Steals a magic item from each Player until they do.
I have more ideas but they are too suggestive for this Thread to continue.
Have the Demon hand one of the players a Large Whip made out of flaming Skulls that are constantly moaning in Pain and instruct the player to WHIP the DEmON as he molests a dead corpse. (Give the Player a temporary 24 hour negative level JUST by touching the Two-handed Skull Whip).. Afterwards the Demon takes the whip back and says its the Player's TURN to MOLEST the DEAD Corpse and the DEMON STARTS to WHIP the Player.... if the player refuses the DEMON ROARS into COMBAT
You have quite a sickening imagination Tsarkon... and I applaud you for it, albeit cannot help but hope that you never end up GMing one of my campaigns.
This is my new favorite thread. "My characters are chopping up dead guys and it really weirds me out." "Oh, you should use the chopped up bodies as crazy, horrible zombies that rape them!" Creepiness solved.
Maybe they think that when they do it, they go up one level.
The horde of vengeful Shadows come back to harass those who had desecrated their remains.
So what's keeping the necromancers following after them from just casting Make Whole on the corpses and then raising them anyway? I'd be sorely tempted to bring back some of their recognizable opponents anyway, just to mess with them. Ooh. Maybe have some wizard enemy return as an angry ghost that raises his own corpse and then comes back after them.
Then after that, tell them out-of-character to knock it off. It's creepy and unnecessary. You're the GM. If you really want to bring people back, you'll find a way.
I like this idea. I would perhaps even go so far as to somehow necromantically fuse all the dead bodies together into a giant monstrosity that stalks the pc's and finds them at a very inappropriate time - like the end of a nasty fight where their resources are practically spent.
Make sure they recognise bits and pieces of this giant horror with corpses for fingers and screaming skulls for teeth.
Of course you would need to write in a necromantic coven of sorts to composite the creature, but you can probably bank on your players just burning the fallen after such an encounter. ;)
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Well I would usually escilate the issue if this was happening to me i would verbal warning out of game. still happens in game machanics start going off stories about ghost poping out from areas they just left. Still keep it up you start getting haunted, still going then ghost army comes for a TPK attempt(depending on reactions, escape oppurtunity) still keep going a demon like tsarkon suggests but it would be TPK cause he would use the party for the examples.
i just didnt feel like righting all this out since i am at work but now I gotta clerifiy my comment.
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The players can respond by mutilating the corpses to the point that the revenant will be unable of moving or hurting them.From the Pathfinder SRD
Revenant
This shambling corpse is twisted and mutilated. Fingers of sharpened bone reach out with malevolent intent.Reason to Hate (Su)
A revenant’s existence is fueled by its hatred for its murderer. As long as the murderer exists, the revenant exists.Sense Murderer (Su)
A revenant knows the direction but not the distance to its murderer—this sense can be blocked by any effect that blocks scrying. Against its murderer, a revenant has true seeing and discern lies in effect at all times (CL 20th); these abilities cannot be dispelled.One for every slain and mutilated foe. They'll soon discover their path leads to having to kill each creature twice - and the second time might be a tad trickier.
S.
Dude, you are playing a game with elves and fairies and you are GM. The corpses could come back as Elvis and attack the players with flying fish if you wanted...
Maybe if they discovered they had been leaving a trail of haunts behind them?
Maybe the soul fragments of the despoiled corpses form a posessing entity of some sort? This is waaaay scarier than most conventional undead.
What about the traumatized line of spirits arriving at the Boneyard all mashed up, clamoring for revenge? How would Pharasma feel about them creating unrest in the Boneyard? She might even have the Dark Horseman get one of the PC's names from his well.
What if the practice started to catch on? How would this effect their chances of ever being raised from the dead and would Pharasma release their souls from the Boneyard?
The players can respond by mutilating the corpses to the point that the revenant will be unable of moving or hurting them.From the Pathfinder SRD
Revenant
This shambling corpse is twisted and mutilated. Fingers of sharpened bone reach out with malevolent intent.Reason to Hate (Su)
A revenant’s existence is fueled by its hatred for its murderer. As long as the murderer exists, the revenant exists.Sense Murderer (Su)
A revenant knows the direction but not the distance to its murderer—this sense can be blocked by any effect that blocks scrying. Against its murderer, a revenant has true seeing and discern lies in effect at all times (CL 20th); these abilities cannot be dispelled.One for every slain and mutilated foe. They'll soon discover their path leads to having to kill each creature twice - and the second time might be a tad trickier.
S.
Fun methods of locomotion for massively mutilated revenants:
A half-sized human slithers in, pulling itself along with its entrails, leaving a trail of putrid green ooze.
A humanoid torso horribly disjointed, as if someone had snapped its back in half, comes walking in on spider like limbs. It is using its own ribcage in place of legs!
Long strands of greasy brown hair snake into the room and wrap around your leg! You feel a strong tug as the remains of BBEG the Great inch their way closer and closer.
I used to play a dwarf fighter who chopped the heads off of major enemies and stored them in a barrel on the party's ship. Once in a while he'd take the heads out and chastise them for their evil deeds. Everybody thought this was all in good fun, and nobody was creeped out. Chopping off people's feet is clearly warped though.
Maybe you could talk to the players out of game and or through a friendly NPC in game and ask them to stop mutilating the corpses. If they comply have a BBEG cast speak with dead on the intact corpses to gain info about the PCs and then animate the bodies to assist in an effort to kill the party. This way the players can face their fears and see that adversity only results in more XP and treasure.
If you don't like that idea (and I'm guessing most people wouldn't) maybe you could try inserting an Annoying Good NPC who demands that the PCs refrain from such crimes. She could reward them with quests, treasure, raise dead, etc for their obedience and punish them by withholding such rewards and whining about dismemberment creeping her out.
Dude, you are playing a game with elves and fairies and you are GM. The corpses could come back as Elvis and attack the players with flying fish if you wanted...The players can respond by mutilating the corpses to the point that the revenant will be unable of moving or hurting them.From the Pathfinder SRD
Revenant
This shambling corpse is twisted and mutilated. Fingers of sharpened bone reach out with malevolent intent.Reason to Hate (Su)
A revenant’s existence is fueled by its hatred for its murderer. As long as the murderer exists, the revenant exists.Sense Murderer (Su)
A revenant knows the direction but not the distance to its murderer—this sense can be blocked by any effect that blocks scrying. Against its murderer, a revenant has true seeing and discern lies in effect at all times (CL 20th); these abilities cannot be dispelled.One for every slain and mutilated foe. They'll soon discover their path leads to having to kill each creature twice - and the second time might be a tad trickier.
S.
I like it... A hunk of burning love......
Just ask them to stop it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My two C-bills,
First, talk to the players. If that doesn't work, be blunt and quit GMing.
I had a party that cut off the heads of their enemies 'just to make sure'. I arranged an encounter with a hill giant (they were third level) Most of the party got to cover, but the fighter couldn't. So she (wisely) plays dead.
"The giant reaches for his belt and pulls out a long sword. Well to you it's a long sword, to him it's more a knife. 'Just to make sure...'"
After that, my group stopped cutting the heads off everything.
If you have even one divine caster or anyone with ranks in Knowledge: Religion in the party, then knowing basic stuff about low level undead probably isn't metagaming.
Also, and more importantly, humans have an almost compulsive need to create and share stories (both real and fiction); drawing inspiration from a wide variety of sources. Parents make up cautionary tales to keep their kids safe. Local news outlets alert audiences of virus outbreaks, describe symptoms and issue instructions on how to stay healthy. The modern film industry even has taught me to look in my back seat before getting in my car.
Why should we think that the campfires, bedsides, barstools and town sqares of Golarion would be any different than ours.
Golarion is filled with magic. There's an entire nation filled with undead. Surely someone has written a play set in Geb about a pair of star-crossed young lovers. Or a romantic thriller about a love triangle between quick, dead, and thrall involving a kitchen knife and a boiled pet rabbit.
Let's allow Golarion to have a rich literary culture, filled with entertaining and enlightening news and stories. And let's allow our PCs to learn from them.
Still, I know about bears, but I do not place bear traps throughout my back yard. This party is not taking an action that is within the realm of "look both ways before you cross the street," but instead "I need spend a million dollars on a nuclear bomb shelter since in case terrorists get nukes and decide to target my small town instead of a major city." This is about the fact that this behavior is over precaution through almost psychotic actions against a rare event that they should not feel so paranoid about since it is justified through events that happened to different characters.
If they were playing characters from Ustalav or some other place with a rich history of necromancy and superstitious behavior, then I could accept this. But since nothing was mentioned by Maveric28, I assume this is not the case. Their back-stories and general character concept gave him no indication that they would act like this.
A whole lot of this seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Make it happen off-screen, and be done with the whole thing.
I have to agree with black blood here, they are (more than likely) doing this in reaction to a past experience. Punishing them for taking precautions, albeit fairly brutal precautions, seems silly.
If it creeps you out that much, ask them if they destroy the bodies (without going into specifics) making it a yes / no question. If yes, say they do so, not going into the details that creep you so. If no, well then there is no problem. If you'd like, you could possibly roll dice to see how well they did so, in case you do intend to do necromantic things.
I also think this could be considered metagaming as others have said. If no one else has ever experienced necromancy, including NPCs, then I'd wonder how they knew to do all of this or even that they should be taking these precautions.
In most cultures, the dead can't be reanimated as zombies or interrogated for information. And most cultures can't use spells to contact their deity, who would tell them that destroying the body has no effect on the being's afterlife.
Go back far enough to when those rituals evolved in the real world, and people very much believed that they could. They also believed that NOT treating a corpse with respect would get you haunted by it's ghost.
Indeed, if you read Carrion Crown, there is a moment in one adventure when casting speak with dead can get the PC's accused of desecrating a corpse. It's not the specific action or it's outcome, it's a matter of respect for the dead.
I thought my players were odd...they just pile up the corpses and hit the heap with a disintegrate spell...overkill I know!
Why dont they just cremate the bodies, cremation isnt frowned upon is it?
It was covered earlier. Time and effort.
Lots of good advice so far. If you don't want to deal with it out-of-game (it depends how big a concern it is to you) I'd suggest having friendly NPCs and good/evil dieties react to it. Out-of-game I'd simply tell them that if they continue their behaviour there will be consequences. Preferably with a mischievous grin and some sinister dice-rolling behind the screen. Be sure to point out that restore corpse is merely a first level spell...
Even just one spectator to go "What the hell, man?" can really throw a wrench in that kind of thinking. Our most recent far-fetched PC plan was "we can't get access to this castle so clearly we should talk the Neutral troll into attacking it." I wish we'd had a voice of sense. The troll massacred the whole town.
If a friendly onlooker isnt your bag, perhaps have Pharasma, or your handy dandy goddess/deity of death start sending her agents after them to punish them for their frequent crimes against her domain. Celestial creatures. Angels. That kind of thing. That should certainly get their attention. One of the articles in carrion crown (and I suspect the pathfinder wiki) had a list of Pharasma's planar allies...
On top of that, you could have them get the attention of a demon-lord of mutilation, who could proclaim them his "champions" and have similar murders committed in their name (Sort of vaguely like the plot of Skinsaw Murders here). They'll have a hard time justifying their actions when corpses in town start to bear their trademark.
Of all of the suggestions so far though, I particularly love the Revenant. I'd start there, and escalate accordingly if your PCs don't get the message.
Create a new undead creature that is basically a swarm of disembodied dead feet, and have it chase the party around. Kind of like the crawling hand, but a swarm. :P
I recall a book I read a long time ago where some vengeful ghosts terrorized a country because someone had stolen their skulls, and only when the body parts were returned to their graves could the ghosts rest. You could work something like that in.
Peet
I typically have it known in my campaigns that funeral rites are generally (not always) effective in helping to prevent undeadification. By following funeral rites a save throw is allowed for the corpse before it turns into undead instead of the normal case of cast spell have undead.
Treating bodies badly is generally *known* to cause more undeadification and problems with spirits etc.
As to mutilated bodies? Heck it's *magic* you never know how exactly it's going to play out. I've had bodies combine before into a single undead with multiple arms or arms as legs and the like.
I'm firmly of the opinion to have a talk with the players and point out, "Look unless it's a specific case I'm not going to have corpses just get up and attack you again -- I'm not really looking to have 'got you!' moments in general. IF you follow the funeral rites generally that will be enough -- and if it's a case of me as a GM wanting a particular creature being undead you tearing up the body isn't going to stop me."
Isn't there a undead in bestiary 3 made up od bits of corpses?
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I find this thread to be funny because they can be doing a lot worse things with those corpses. In 1 game i played i ended up cooking the meat and bones of the fallen and serving them to my party unbenouced to them and they never even thought were in the world is the 5'4'' 17 year old girl getting the meat to feed the party. Ive also bought a farm with that character and fertilized the crops with dead adventures, villagers, and travelers. Sold the crops to the local kingdom and made nice profit off the dead. They can do a lot worse and be thankful u dont have players like me that go out of there way to ensure there is no evidence to be left behind. Character btw was a vegan half elf druid role playing with the old 1e druid background. It was very fun for me but the DM did look at me with that face of o dear god y.
Maybe they should have just invested in a wand of gentle repose or something.
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On the one hand, there's the Cook People hex.
On the other hand, I think there's something to be said for funeral rites as an effective foil against necromancy. Something like giving corpses a SR equal to the Religion check made during the funeral rites, maybe?
And on the gripping hand, inform them that desecrating corpses carries a chance (which you'll always roll) that it outrages the spirit of the deceased and leads to some sort of trouble.
Lots of good advice so far. If you don't want to deal with it out-of-game (it depends how big a concern it is to you) I'd suggest having friendly NPCs and good/evil dieties react to it. Out-of-game I'd simply tell them that if they continue their behaviour there will be consequences. Preferably with a mischievous grin and some sinister dice-rolling behind the screen. Be sure to point out that restore corpse is merely a first level spell...
Restore corpse won't fix broken bones.