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Organized Play Member. 73 posts (75 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 3 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


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The radiation environmental effect description implies that a successful save negates the CON drain and the STR damage. If the spell completely follows the environmental effect, It seems to me that the Irradiate spell should have said "Fortitude negates" rather than "Fortitude partial".

Hello all. I have concerns about the Irradiate spell. The spell's entry seems to be incomplete as written. Specifically regarding what happens on a successful save and to a lesser extent what happens on a failed save. The spell says the save is Fortitude partial - see below, but the spell description never actually details the partial save effects.

As a player, my last party got wiped out by a couple of Druids spamming the spell. As played at the table, targeted creatures who made their saves against the spell still took half damage from it. At CL 10 spells we were looking at between 1d4 and 2d4 CON *drain* every time the spell hit us.

After the TPK, I started GMing Iron Gods for the same group of players. I will likely be throwing Irradiate spells at the PCs in the near future and would like a bit of clarification before I use the spell in my game.

So my multiple-choice question to the community and/or the devs is as follows:

What are the Irradiate spell's effects if targeted creatures succeed on their saving throws against it?
A) targeted creatures take no CON drain and no STR damage
B) targeted creatures take full CON drain but no STR damage
C) targeted creatures take no CON drain but full STR damage
D) targeted creatures take half CON drain and half STR damage
E) targeted creatures take half CON drain and no STR damage
F) something else happens _________________________

On paper, Irradiate looks overpowered when compared to other spells at the same level (Fireball, for example). There is no easy remedy for the ability score drain and no good defense against it.

Ideas? Suggestions?

My players have recently stumbled upon an army of intellect devourers inhabiting the brain cavities of a tribe of morlocks..

Also, the Hexcrafter Magus in the party has recently gained the Ice Tomb hex (and I thought Slumber was bad).

Last session, the magus encased a morlock vessel in ice, trapping both it and the intellect devourer still in its cranium. The next round he CDG'd the morlock with an adamantine x4 crit weapon to its head.

At the table, I ruled that half of the CDG damage went to the morlock and half applied to the intellect devourer. Both creatures still failed their Fort saves and died.

I'm looking for advice on other ways I could have handled the situation. Any ideas out there?

Chart known dragon attacks or missing farm animals on an area map. Draw a big circle connecting them. Locate a suitably large ruin or mountain somewhere near the center of the circle.

It works in the cop shows, why can't it work in a game. As for relevant rules for such an approach . . .

Perception (yes, see previous rules quote)
Diplomacy / Gather information
Knowledge: Geography
Knowledge: Arcana
Knowledge: History

Why do we feel that we must depend solely on magic to solve problems?

What would Batman (from the comics) do?


PRD wrote:

Follow Tracks: To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow. If you are not trained in this skill, you can make untrained checks to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Perception skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature's passage using the same DCs, but you can't use Perception to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them.

The rules permit using perception checks to find evidence of a creature's passage. This includes, but is not limited to physical tracks or impressions on the ground.

So, how do you track a flying dragon back to its lair? You follow the bits of cow carcass that dropped from its maw as it flew past. You notice the glint of sunlight off of the coins and gems that fell free from its scales. A broken tree limb here, a splash of acid there.

Sure, the DCs will be high, but the younger the dragon, the more careless it will be.

Obligatory quote:

There's no greater hunter than Prince Humperdinck. He could track a falcon on a cloudy day.
- Princess Buttercup

Anything that damages your character will wake him/her immediately. Attach some caltrops to clothing to cause one point of damage when falling prone. Or a flask of acid tied around the neck.

Also, there is an alchemical substance that is applied like a tattoo, that burns 1 pt per round for 10 rounds or so. Look into that if you're able.

To quote myself from a similar thread . . .

Inscribe Magical Tattoo:
* is LESS useful than Craft Wondrous Items feat (since IMT still requires a slot for most effects)
* becomes available two levels LATER than CWI
* requires five skill ranks to qualify (who invests 5 ranks in calligraphy?)
* costs the same as slot-less wondrous items (that you could already create with CWI)
* costs double the price of normally slotted items
* costs quadruple the price of equivalent scrolls
* is inferior to similar crafting feats in almost every way, but . . .
* it does grant silent activation for scroll-like usage
* might actually be useful for a Vow of Poverty monk (check with your GM first, though)

A standard Summoner with extended, reaching Marionette Possession could awesome. Better than a Synthesist, in my opinion. Similar effect, without giving up the extra feats and skills.

Permanent Reduce Person on your own body (works best for a gnome or halfling). Evolve a large or cast Enlarge on Eidolon. Cast MP, wear the eidolon body like a suit, stuff your own body into a backpack (so your body can't be targeted), have the eidolon wear the backpack, wreak havoc in his body, sacrifice your own hit points when his reach zero, etc, etc.

Since both souls are sharing the same body, and can communicate freely, get his advice on knowledges, appraisals, perception, sense motive and spellcraft (if he has the ranks)

Ocule said wrote:
what do you guys think is the best approach to handling large battles?

Short answer? Hero Lab with all the add-ons.

Longer answer? I kind of hated the mass combat rules when I was playing Kingmaker a couple of years ago. Now that our group is playing Wrath of the Righteous, I actually look forward to it. I'm even sad that the battles will taper off after this book.

So, what changed? Why the change of heart?

The mass combat rules were added to Hero Lab with the Ultimate Campaign add-on. Creating diverse "armies" is quick and painless. Managing multiple armies at the game table is easy. Just one click is all it takes to switch between armies.

True story. Last session, our gunmage got his fly spell dispelled out from under him by some [REDACTED] in book two of our Wrath game. He floated gently down into the middle of an army of [REDACTED]. He didn't have any spells left to get away, so my master summoner started spamming Lantern Archons to help out.

Seeing this, the GM wondered out loud if I could summon enough archons to field an army. Since my summoner can bring in 12-36 of the little guys in about a minute, I suspected it was doable.

Between turns, I fiddled around with Hero Lab and created a tiny army made of eleven LA units. It had one hit point, excellent DV, ranged attacks only, tactical advantage, etc. And it only took a couple of minutes to stat up.

While we didn't get to use the archon army in that session, I now have it ready to go for future battles.

Wow. This encounter was a doozy. And it's still not over. It might be my first TPK as a GM. We'll have to wait until next session to find out.

Anyway, here goes . . .

Name: Fa'al
Race: Human 

Classes/levels: Barbarian2/Fighter5 

Adventure: City of Seven Spears 

Location: Inside the Charau-Ka Fortress

Catalyst: Skipping to the end (again), aborted diplomacy, failed regime change, Blasphemy, negative energy channel, claw, claw, claw, claw, rend, bite, energy channel, claw, claw, claw, claw, rend, bite, claw, claw, rend, bite, unconsciousness, rage death.
Random Observation My players have a habit of drawing multiple encounters at once. I'm not really sure such efficiency is worth the added risk.
The Gory Details: The Magus and Barbarian were joined by an old friend in the form of the newly resurrected and restored alchemist (two kills ago) and a new Shaman that was rescued from a tar cocoon in Tazion's Temple of the Snake.

Side Note: The Hunter's player was feeling overshadowed by his animal companion and decided to try out a Shaman. Also, the Slayer's player couldn't make the game so we excluded him from the massacre.

The group decided to follow the map alphabet this session, admiring the view at area A, taking out the pteranodons and the crocodiles at area B, almost losing the magus to a ghostly Pathfinder at area C and feeling drawn to the imposing fortress overlooking the military district at area D1.

As usual, the party flew straight up to the top of the structure. This time, they spotted Olujimi lounging on a ramshackle throne, overseeing his domain while surrounded by a cadre of dire apes and a handful of charau-ka, skittering about nearby. Everyone was aware of everyone in the late afternoon sun and still Olujima chose to remain seated and unarmed as the party landed a respectful distance away. The high girallon asked who was intruding on his kingdom and inquired if they were here to pay him homage or had come to die.

Once the diplomacies began, I rolled a 4 (on 2d6) out in the open, and the players assumed (correctly), that they had just four rounds to convince Olujima that they could help each other out. The new PC shaman both rolled and roled well enough to convince the king to grant the party control of one district if they were able to eliminate the leadership of all of the other districts (starting with the hated "serpent witch" and her pets). At the end of round 3, the sticking point was over the amount of tribute the party would pay Olujima each month. Impoverished, fearing the worst or just plain bored, the party magus cast Mirror Image on himself in full sight of everyone before the final round of negotiations started. Olujima took that as a prelude to battle and initiatives were rolled all around the table.

The party impressively finished off all four dire apes in just two rounds. Fa'al, the party barbarian, fought off a Dominate Monster from Olujima, (having taken Iron Will after reluctantly murdering his archanist ally in Tazion a week earlier). The magus then hit Olujima with a slumber hex that sent the ape back to his dreams.

The charau-ka nearby threw stones at their king to wake him up, but either couldn't get through his armor or overcome his DR. At that point, I admit that I got a little sad and assumed the fight was all over.

However, the enlarged, mutagened, insect-themed beastmorph, vivisectionist alchemist flew over to the slumbering beast, and ignored the magus' pleas to wait.

The alchemist is used to shredding nearly everything within reach, even when his enemies are on their feet and still fighting. I usually feel sorry for the monsters I let get close to this guy. This time it was different, though. The helpless high girallon was only slightly damaged by the assault, thanks to his DR reducing 10 points from each natural attack that hit him.

When he woke, on his turn, Olujima defensively Dimension Doored away and, finding Akkituk at the shrine, ordered her to awaken Angazhan's champion. After a very short discussion (and a 4 on the die), the still partially-petrified Grugonoth joined Olujima and Akkituk on the jump back to the charau-ka fortress.

While Olujima was away, the party assumed he had fled further inside the fortress. They caught and questioned some charau-ka, hoping to find out where their king might have fled. Learning of his "throne room" inside, the party buffed up and moved through the fortress, slumbering, killing or scattering the charau-ka occupants as they went. They found the inner throne room dark and empty, as well as the sleeping chamber and the adjoining rooms. Soon, they spread out and searched for magical items. The magus was alone in the outer court hall when several excited charau-ka voices rang out from the stairwell leading to the roof, addressing some unseen arrivals.

The next moment, the magus found himself surrounded by a large, fully-healed, fiend-blooded high girallon, a huge, half-fiend, advanced dire ape, and a frail charau-ka priestess of the demon lord Agazhan.

The magus fled into the throne room to join his friends, drawing an AoO from Grugonoth, but was saved by the mirror image that had precipitated the original conflict.

The party moved into positions not far from the door to the throne room and Grugonoth opened with Blasphemy. Since the half-fiend was five HD higher than everyone in the party, all of the PCs were subject to daze, paralysis and strength loss. Liberal use of hero points limited the paralysis to only one round, halved the strength loss and negated the daze effect. What followed was a flurry of clawing, biting, rending, CDG attempting and negative energy channeling that left one insectoid alchemist at negatives on the floor and a raging Fa'al coming to his rescue. He managed to drop the priestess into negatives and his impressive AC kept him alive longer than I expected, but after the third round of concentrated attacks from the two giant apes, Fa'al lost consciousness, dropped out of rage and died from the shock.

When the session ended, the alchemist was prone but now conscious, although still adjacent to Grugonoth and Olujimi. The PC shaman was barely damaged, but is now within rending distance. The Magus was unharmed but trapped in the throne room. The two apes have sustained only minimal damage so far. Several frightened charau-ka have been watching this clash of titans from relative safety nearby. They may be spurred to action soon.

I'm not sure how things will end up, but it doesn't look good for the heroes. If the Slayer's player makes it to the game next week, I will probably let him catch up with the rest of the team. Perhaps showing up just in time to save the day. Or provide dessert.

Name: Jacob (I think that was his name, he didn't survive his first session)
Race: Human 

Classes/levels: Arcanist 6 

Adventure: Racing to Ruin 

Location: Tar Pits outside the Azlanti Ziggurat

Catalyst: Ambushed by upgunned, newly-healed, fresh-as-a-daisy serpent folk wizard, now with allies, over a lake of bubbling tar.
Random Observation My group is really giving the Advanced Class playtest a workout.
The Gory Details: Having just lost their alchemist to a serpent folk's CDG, the party took his body and their blind wizard back to the caravan to find replacements. The next morning, the Hexcrafter Magus, Hunter and Slayer set out with a new Arcanist and a Fighter/Barbarian.

The group immediately returned to the Azlanti ziggurat, hoping for a rematch with Issilar, but he was nowhere to be found. They tinkered with the magical map device and realized they needed some components to make it work. They began cautiously exploring the rest of the structure and soon encountered a fiendish hornet. They tried burning it out with alchemist's fire. This did no damage to the bug, but set it's house-sized nest ablaze and a thick plume of smoke began rising from the ziggurat, visible to anything still living in Tazion.

The party continued clearing the building, choking on thick black smoke, tiptoeing through the halls, casting and recasting their buff spells, all while expecting to find Issilar waiting for them around every next corner.

The party had finally given up finding him when they exited the ziggurat. Issilar, Roagru, his giant constrictor animal companion and a handful of charau-ka then greeted them with readied lightning bolts, hold persons, rocks and clubs.

Note: This ambush could have been really bad. The new arcanist was the MVP here, shutting down the worst of Issilar's long-distance barrage and some of Roagru's short range spells. Of course, that just made him the main target.

There were a few close calls at the base and roof of the ziggurat with black tentacles pinning down the barbarian, a flaming sphere keeping the Slayer archer moving around, a successful hold person followed by an unsucceessful CDG and everybody taking damage. Eventually Roagru, his pet and the charau-ka were cut down and Jacob (archanist), the Magus and the Barbarian then flew over the tar pits toward Issilar.

The serpent folk was furious with Jacob for shutting down so many of his spells and SLAs in what should have been an overwhelmingly successful ambush. Hoping to settle the score, Issilar used his last suggestion spell on the barbarian.

"Do you really know this person? He's a snake in disguise, attack him." The barbarian fell for it and charged his new, already injured ally, dropping him to negatives in one hit. Jacob's bleeding form fell from the sky and slipped beneath the bubbling tar and then into Pharasma's waiting arms.

Tactical Note: A critical spell failure (from the fumble deck) a couple of rounds earlier transferred one of Jacob's Dispel Magic spells into Issilar's hands. After dropping Jacob, I should have had Issilar cast his Dispel on the barbarian to remove the fly spell that was on him and plop him into the tar next to Jacob. However, in a moment of remorse and generosity, I had him ignite the tar and try to hide in its smoke instead.

Issilar was already wounded, out of escape options and soon finished off by the combined efforts of the remaining team members.

Hi all. I've got three kills to report. I'll break them up a bit.

Name: Varon 

Race: Human 

Classes/levels: Vivisectionist 6 

Adventure: Racing to Ruin
Location: Azlanti Ziggurat, Hall of Lineages
Catalyst: Upgunned and waiting serpent folk wizard, tight quarters
Random Observation: With two characters who can fly/carry comrades, my group tends to start at the top of the tallest, most imposing structure in sight and face its many challenges in reverse.
The Gory Details: After clearing the aqueduct, the party flew off toward the Azlanti ziggurat, landing on the roof, drawing ape-men howls, a girillion's attentions and the preparation of a serpent folk enchanter below. The party's own wizard had gone blind from jungle diseases that morning and was little help.

Note: I gave Issilar another wizard level, swapped Divination for one of his opposition schools instead of Conjuration, gave him a few scrolls and topped him off with full hit points rather than average for his HD.

By the time they got to him, Issilar had already buffed himself and laid down some battlefield control spells - flaming sphere at one of the doors, webs elsewhere, and black tentacles (from his extra wizard level).

Varon barreled down the stairs, saw the serpent folk and rushed toward him, avoiding the webs, but getting snared by the black tentacles. The rest of the party fought Issilar's familiar and negotiated around the flaming sphere. Varon eventually broke free from the black tentacles and reached Issilar, only to fail his saving throw to the serpent folk's Hold Person spell. The next round, having no opposition nearby, Issilar CDG'd the alchemist while his allies watched through a field of waving tentacles.

By the time the party archer got into position, it was too late to help Varon. Issilar dimension doored away the following round, vowing to return.

Yes, there are some bugs in the program and errors in some of the data. However, for people who don't spend all their time on the Paizo website and forums, HL can help keep up with the latest rules errata. It definitely simplifies character creation and bookkeeping for complex classes. Building a Summoner without HL would be a major pain, with several opportunities to screw it up.

Like others, I bought core and added on every few months. It's definitely been worth it for me.

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Yes, the Slumber hex changes things. My group is (mostly) yawning its way through the Screaming Jungle in the Serpent's Skull AP.

Random encounters with animal level intelligence foes become a trip to the pet store.

Hexcrafter: "Slumber. Hey, guys do we need a hippo?"

Group: "Nah, we've got an extinction menagerie theme going with the Pteranodons and Saber Tooth."

Beastmorph Vivisectionist: "Ok. CDG it is."

My players are actually hoping I roll high on the random encounter table.

Hexcrafter: "Come on double-Os, daddy needs a pet T-Rex."

Thank you all for the advice. You've been a bit help.

Hi all,

A player of a Hexcrafter Magus with the Healing hex wants to know if his character can use a Cure Light Wounds wand without needing to make a UMD skill check. I haven't seen anything in the rules that allows Su abilities to count as spells for wand activation.

I'm on the fence about it. Is there a ruling I've missed that discusses this use and its legality?

If nothing official has been said about it by the Devs, what are your opinions on the matter?

While we're at it, what about wands of Levitation, Fly, Feather Fall, Disguise Self, Tongues, Comprehend Languages, etc.?

First kill!

Name: Donavan
Race: Aasimar
Classes/levels: Paladin 4
Adventure: Souls for Smuggler's Shiv
Location: The Temple of Zura, outside the Flensing Room
Catalyst: Waking up a gibbering mouther and falling into its pit, *twice*
The Gory Details: While exploring Zura's temple, Donavan threw his steel shield across to the other side of a pit trap. The shield clanked loudly, echoing throughout the temple halls - attracting the attention of a nearby gibbering mouther.

A few rounds later Donavan activated another pit trap outside the Flensing Room, failed his reflex save, took 3d6 falling damage and came face to face(s) with the hideous aberration below. After failing to damage it with his longsword, his allies pulled him up the following round (drawing him an AoO).

The mouther tried to give chase, but couldn't make the climb checks to reach the party above.

Moving on, two members of the group entered the Flensing Room and activated a pressure plate. Without seeing any immediate threat, they lingered there while the rest of the group crossed over the pit and joined them. Donavan was last to arrive and was just inside the door when the bronze sheet suddenly began to drop.

Still secured by a rope, Donavan decided to jump through the doorway, back into the pit, rather than stay in the obviously trapped room with his teammates. Failing one reflex save, but making the other, he dropped to the remaining length of the rope, dangling just out of the gibbering mouther's reach - until the bronze sheet fully closed and severed the rope.

Back in the pit he had previously escaped, injured, cut off from his allies and too heavy to climb out on his own, Donavan went on the offense, first with his shield and then with his gauntlets. Unfortunately, he couldn't get through the creature's natural defenses. While the mouther missed as much as it hit, and did very little damage when it did connect, all of its attacks added up over time. Then an acidic spittle spray blinded Donavan long enough for the mouther to grab and begin engulfing him. When Donavan's vision finally cleared, he saw one of the mouther's internal eyes staring into his own as its internal mouths gnawed on his flesh.

A few moments later later, another character noticed an arrow in his Efficient Quiver pulling toward the gibbering mouther's location, hinting that it might somehow be an Aberration slaying arrow.

Donavan's stalwart AC will be missed as much in death as it was in life. A tiny lifeboat from a recently doomed ship is likely to bring his replacement.

Thread necro alert:

Our party witch took a feat to raise slumber hex DCs by 2 (Ability Focus) and something that allows him to attempt slumber on the same target more than once per 24 hours (all with my approval). Basically pushed this so-called OP ability into overdrive. This made him dangerous to susceptible targets, but relatively harmless against several others.

Still, it hasnt't been much of a problem. Slumbered low flying targets wake up when they hit the ground (while taking some damage) and intelligent foes with allies usually get kicked awake.

I retrofitted the NPC witch with slumber, to great effect against the PCs and castaways. Fun stuff - what's good for the goose and all that.

The witch player is getting bored with it though. Wanting to retrain to something more diverse.

My group is almost finished with book 1. The PC's are:

Donavan - recently slain Aasimar paladin of Ragathiel, used longsword and shield and gauntlets. Wore splint mail, rarely got hit in combat. Died at the bottom of a 30' pit, battered by the fall, twice, blinded by the pit's occupant and facing six attacks per round. Will probably be replaced by a wizard or ranger.

Kazuya - Tiefling witch, fights with slumber hexes mostly and spells. Very powerful against most humanoid and animal encounters, very limited against vermin, undead and immune creatures. Player says the character feels too much like a one trick pony. He is considering using the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign and switching to a Hexcrafter magus.

Varon - human Beastmorph Vivisectionist alchemist, fights with claw, claw, bite, and Alchemist's Fire. Usually first into combat, positively brutal to big bads, especially with a flanking buddy. Gets hit a lot, though.

Varathiel - human Druid with a dimorpadon animal companion. Uses his 'bird' effectively, while fighting up close.

About to finish Souls for Smuggler's Shiv. Mother Thrunefang went down like a chump to my group.

Short Version: three out of four PCs had darkvision, all were level 3, mother was all alone, Aasimar paladin and beastmorph vivisectionist ended her quickly.

Long Version: after defeating half of the cannibals and taking over the camp, the Players brought in the NPCs and everyone rested in the lighthouse. At 3rd watch of the night, I rolled a ghoul for a random encounter and had it moving around outside. The druid and another character detected it and attempted to slow it down from a distance, without success. By the time they got outside, it had scattered the driftwood covering the pit and clambered down into the darkness. The group decided to wait until morning before following it.

Inside the cave, the players moved quickly and made short work of the festrogs. They soon encountered the previous night's ghoul, soaking in a pool, transforming into a lacedon bit by bit as it dribbled water onto itself. They completely caught it off guard, but still had some trouble fighting it in the water, with one player getting paralyzed and nearly drowning. Further on, the group ran into three full lacedons and took them out despite some bad saves vs paralysis and disease. Alchemist charged, was surrounded, paralyzed and nearly CDGed. Paladin and Druid took the pressure off long enough to make a difference. Ghouls couldn't hit the paladin, which helped.

Returning to the pool area, players were ambushed by the witch (I leveled her up to 5th, with retrained hexes and spells), wearing the body of a male cannibal (thanks to Marionette Possession), along with three other cannibals. Two PCs failed slumber hex saves, one fell into the water. PC witch slumbered cannibals while the others fought and tried to wake allies. Cannibals eventually fell and alchemist's fire sent Malikadna's mind back to her own body.

Understanding that the lighthouse might be under attack, the players still decided to push forward, encountering and eliminating more lacedons, but at a quicker pace. None escaped. When they finally reached mother Thrunefang, she was all alone. Hearing the death cries of her children, she buffed, created fog, cast darkness and waited. When the PCs approached, she channeled for very little damage and then moved deeper into the cave. Unhindered by darkness, the heroes pushed through the mist and began to make short work of mother Thrunefang. The alchemist's claw, claw, bite attack routine finished her off. He now carries her head as a trophy.

This was a very anticlimactic encounter in an otherwise exciting dungeon. The ghouledon baptism, the first batch of lacedons and the cannibal ambush were all memorable moments.

Takeaway: While it was a good reward for the PCs moving quickly, the action economy disparity of being all alone really hurt the mother. That, along with the fact that the primary PC meleers could see her perfectly in the dark, her usual tricks weren't able to save her. I wish that I had expanded the mother's passage and lair a bit and given her a consort or two. That would have given her some breathing room to get off a spiritual weapon and then channel for more damage.

Nope. 15 point buy. While raging.
Starting stats are:
Str 14
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 14 (16 after racial bonus)

Add 1 to Con at 4th level
Add 2 to Con from Belt of Mighty Constitution
Add 4 to Str while raging
Add 4 to Con while raging
Add an extra 2 to Con with Raging Vitality

Looking ahead, the Mental Acuity revelation will add a total of 5 inherant bonus points to Intelligence at Oracle 18th level.

Yes. Sidestep Secret. For some reason Hero Lab didn't include it in the special abilities stat block. It helps reduce dependence on multiple ability scores. The Lore Keeper revelation does something similar with Charisma for Intelligence on knowledge skill checks. The Lore mystery is pretty awesome (for certain types of play).

I've been playing a Barbarian 1/Lame Oracle of Lore X in Kingmaker from 7th level up to 16th to great effect. I'm a big fan of multiclassing, even though it isn't optimal in PF. In almost 30 years of playing D&D, this is my all-time favorite character. For my play style, this character has the right mix of divine and arcane, martial and magic, skills and spells.

Level 7 Summary
He's an angry divine full caster who rages for 13 rounds per day, never fatigues, moves 30 per round, uses Charisma instead of Dexterity for AC and Reflex Saves, buffs himself before combat with Shield (from wand), Shield of Faith, and Divine Favor. When buffed and raging, he has a 25 AC and a +12 to hit with an Adamantine weapon. He drops rage to cast Grace, move away and heal (or blast with Searing Light/Brain Drain) when needed, then resumes rage on the next round.

Eventually his revelations let him use Charisma for Knowledge checks, trance for an extra +20 on Intelligence-based skill checks, gain extra Intelligence as he levels, and cast arcane spells from a Wizard's spellbook.

Anyway, here's the build at 7 . . .

Arnor Set Raging:
Arnor Set - Raging
Male Human Barbarian 1/Oracle 6
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +0; Senses Perception +11
AC 25, touch 14, flat-footed 22 (+7 armor, +4 shield, +3 Dex, +3 deflection)
hp 86 (1d12+6d8+52)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +10
Immune fatigue
Weakness oracle's curses (lame)
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Adamantine Falchion +12 (2d4+15/18-20/x2) and
. . +1 Cestus +10 (1d4+11/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +2) +8 (1d8+5/x3)
Special Attacks rage (13 rounds/day), revelations (brain drain [6d4, 3 rounds] [2/day] [dc 16], sidestep secret)
Oracle Spells Known (CL 7):
3 (4/day) Locate Object, Cure Serious Wounds, Searing Light
2 (6/day) Resist Energy, Tongues, Cure Moderate Wounds, Delay Poison, Grace
1 (7/day) Entropic Shield, Detect Evil, Shield of Faith, Divine Favor, Bless, Identify, Magic Weapon, Cure Light Wounds
0 (at will) Stabilize, Purify Food and Drink (DC 13), Detect Magic, Mending, Read Magic, Spark (DC 13), Guidance
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 16
Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 20
Feats Extra Rage, Furious Focus, Power Attack -2/+4, Raging Vitality, Toughness
Traits Bastard, Magical Knack (Oracle)
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb +7, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Knowledge (arcana) +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +3, Knowledge (engineering) +3, Knowledge (geography) +3, Knowledge (local) +3, Knowledge (nature) +3, Knowledge (nobility) +3, Knowledge (planes) +3, Knowledge (religion) +3, Perception +11, Ride -1, Spellcraft +4, Stealth -1, Swim +7, Use Magic Device +10;
Racial Modifiers bastard
Languages Common
SQ fast movement +10, mysteries (lore)
Combat Gear Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Shield (CL 2); Other Gear +1 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Adamantine Falchion, +1 Cestus, +1 Composite longbow (Str +2), Belt of mighty constitution +2, Cloak of resistance +1, 2xSmoke Stick, 2xAntitoxin, 2xAntiplague, 2xSoothe Syrup
Special Abilities
Bastard -1 CHA skills vs. Brevic Nobility, +1 Will save.
Brain Drain (6d4, 3 rounds) (2/day) (DC 16) (Su) Target within 100' suffers 6d4 damage, and you have 3 rounds to take a full-round action to make a knowledge skill check using the target's skill bonus. Will negates.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Immunity to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Lame One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance. At 5th
Magical Knack (Oracle) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (13 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "arcane and divine spell lists maintain more of a thematic divide".

I have my suspicions, but I'd like to hear it from you. What, specifically, are those two themes?

Complete at least one Paizo adventure path. Yeah, I know it's not really a character achievement, just something this player really wants.

Our group keeps starting, but never finishing, APs. We're currently in seven APs (Kingmaker book 6 - so close, Council of Thieves book 5, Carrion Crown book 3, Jade Regent book 2, Legacy of Fire book 2, Shattered Star book 1, Rise of the Runelords book 1).

I'll join in. I liked the book so much I bought two. Excellent.

No complaints, except maybe the dance hall thing. :)

Possess Object is kind of nifty . . .


. . . if you don't mind or can work around the limitations (can't speak, can't cast spells).

Lasts a long time (hours per caster level) can eventually can get pretty big (gargantuan, by CL 16).

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If you believe that versatility=power in Pathfinder, then yes, Expanded Arcana can be worth it. I took the feat three (yes 3) times for my human Barbarian1/Lore Oracle 15. Even while taking extra spells each level for favored class bonuses. I haven't regretted it.

May I also suggest getting a Mnemonic vestment and a handful of utility scrolls, oh and maybe some rune stones (spontaneous pearls of power).

As for the eidolon, have you considered making it an impartial, extra-planar employee advocate/non-human resources director? It could have ranks in all the major planar languages, all of the creature identifying knowledges, maxed diplomacy and sense motive skills.

The eidolon might interview potential extra planar summons applicants and suggest promising candidates with the aptitude or experience needed for specific tasks. This could be played straight or for laughs.

"I hate to bring this up, but a few if the lantern archons have been growing uncomfortable providing backup to an Erinyes. Now I have a Bralani Azata on file who could do very well in her position. And his schedule has freed up recently - quite suddenly. I've tracked down some of his previous employers and all of them have given him glowing references, even the ones who've settled on the lower planes. I think he might be a good fit. I took the liberty of mentioning him to the archons and they say they are willing to work with him if you are. I can arrange an interview if you would like."


In my previous post, I was saying that prepared casters (wizards/witches) would rarely prepare the spell on an adventuring day and that spontaneous casters (sorcerers/bards) would probably never take that spell for one of their limited spells known slots. I should have been more clear.

Inscribe Magical Tattoo:
* is more limited than Craft Wondrous Items (since it requires a slot for most effects)
* becomes available two levels later than CWI
* requires five skill ranks to qualify (who invests 5 ranks in calligraphy?)
* costs the same as slot-less wondrous items
* costs double the price of normally slotted items
* costs quadruple the price of equivalent scrolls
* grants silent activation for scroll-like usage
* is inferior to similar crafting feats in almost every way

[edited for spelling and content]

Yeah, i forgot about that spell. Might be worth picking up a scroll or two, but would probably never be taken as a spell known and only rarely prepped on an adventuring day.

I could totally see this used in Carrion Crown by the Bad Guys and even random Wandering Monsters, cause, ya know, CC is treasure light.

It works great for adventure writers/DMs wanting to cheat PCs out of treasure.

Permanencied Shrink Item on a stone mantlet is nice. Reusable instant improved cover can be very helpful. Very little reason for anyone to dispel it in combat since it remains a mantlet.

My Barbarian 1/Oracle of Lore 15 keeps See Invisibility and Tongues Permanencied on himself. And Animate Objects permed on a tiny construct (using the Ultimate Magic alternate rules).

So far no one has managed to dispel the personal permed spells. Whenever he enters battle, he's already glowing from several Extended long term buffs (Contingency, Wind Walk, Life Bubble, Delay Poison, Heroism, Air Walk) and probably a few minutes duration buffs (Shield, Shield of Faith, Bless) and maybe Divine Power and Righteous Might.

With all that magic clinging to him, any dispels that come his way have a decreased chance of 'poofing' his permed spells.

No one has bothered trying to dispel the tiny construct yet. More of a vanity creature/artificial familiar anyway.

Surprised no one mentioned the Blight witch hex . . .

Blight (Su): The witch can curse an animal, plant creature, or plot of land, causing it to wither and die. Blighting an area takes 1 round, during which time the witch and her familiar must be in contact with the target. If it's used on a plot of land, the land begins to wither the following day, and over the next week all plants in the area die. Nothing will grow in that area so long as the curse persists. A witch can affect an area with a radius equal to her class level × 10 feet. Blighting a creature is a standard action that requires a melee touch attack. If used on a creature of the animal or plant type, the creature gains the following curse: Blight Hex—type curse; save Will negates; frequency 1/day; effect 1 Con damage. Both types of curse can be removed with a remove curse or similar magic, using the save DC as the DC to remove the curse. A witch can only have one blight in effect at a time. If another blight hex is made, the first immediately ends.

Have a great rolling coven of witches Blight an area, killing huge swaths of forest and underbrush. Even seeds and spores die. Dead is dead.

During each week of blight, the witches and their allies salt the surface, scatter diatomaceous earth, disperse pollutants, murder wildlife, cut and burn trees, etc. After a week of devastation, the coven moves on.


Excellent idea. Looks like I may want to check out the new Spell Research rules. Or not. :)

Thank you again for looking over this corner-ish case.

Thanks for sharing your take on this. The allowance for a magical laboratory and repairing damage in the spell description got me thinking that simulacra, while frozen to a certain power level, aren't completely immutable.

I've been looking for alternatives to the Leadership feat for one of my high level characters and the simulacrum spell from the CRB and retraining from UCam - a wildly expensive combination - seems to fit the character better than taking on traditional cohorts and followers.

The original idea was inspired by Divayth Fyr (a creepy NPC wizard from the Elder Scrolls games) who grew 'wives' for himself using his own cells. His clones/simulacra had different skills, roles, and personalities, but all were completely loyal to their creator. I'm looking for a cool way to model that relationship using Pathfinder rules.

Anyway, thanks again.

I'm really enjoying Ultimate Campaign. Still trying to absorb it all, though. I'm currently obsessing over the new retraining rules, specifically, can simulacra retrain existing skills, feats and even class levels?

The existing rules for simulacra and power are . . .

"A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum."

It's clear that simulacra can't increase their power, but can they swap skills? Change classes? Can they fiddle with feats? The rules as written seem to permit all of these.

What are your opinions? How would you rule on this?

Level 11 - Wind Walk - 60mph gaseous form flight for 3 characters for 11 hours, good for sending messages, keeping an eye on the borders, spying on neighboring kingdoms, etc. My Barbarian 1/Oracle of Lore X in Kingmaker loves this spell.

Level 10 - Doppelganger Simulacrum discovery - mid-level alchemist creates multiple clones of himself and distributes them around the kingdom or planet, spends a full round action to shift consciousness into any of his clones at any distance as long as they are on the same plane. Then hops into each of the other clones or returns to his real body. My Alchemist in Jade Regent is building toward this. An awesome ability.

EDIT: Fixed caster level for Wind Walk

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I'm a big fan of Boots of the Cat. Fun footwear that is more flavorful than a Ring of Feather Falling. The flavor is worth the little bit of falling damage the wearer might incur.

Since the Plane Shift spell is capable of sending unwilling targets to other planes on a successful touch attack and a failed will save, this seems to be a viable in-combat option.

A few levels ago, I got grief when I declared that my chaotic good Barbarian 1/Oracle of Lore 14 was going to send a captured enemy to the Ethereal plane. The general consensus at the table was that it would be an evil act.

I didn't agree with the group, but retracted the action anyway. The character now keeps a demiplane in existence to use as a dumping ground for certain enemies, but I'm still curious about the morality of the originally planned action.

So what is your opinion of exiling an enemy to the Ethereal plane? Would your opinion of the act change depending on the destination plane?

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Some folks are assuming that the spells referenced in Polymorph Any Object limit PAO to *only* what those example spells can do. However, this *assumption* contradicts the flavor text and the chart.

The referenced spells (and their dependencies) are the following:

baleful polymorph, 
greater polymorph, 
flesh to stone, 
stone to flesh, 
transmute mud to rock, 
transmute metal to wood, 
transmute rock to mud
beast shape#
Form of the dragon#
Alter self
Plant shape#
Elemental body#

None of these above spells grants the ability to transform anything into a wool coat or a marionette. However Polymorph Any Object explicitly permits those unusual transformations *in addition to* the transmutations referenced, while the body text says . . . "You can use this spell to transform *all manner* of objects and creatures into new forms"

From my reading, it seems that PAO can transform a pebble or anything else into a wool coat, a marionette, a giant, a zombie, or almost anything else.

Should the spell be this permissive? That's for someone else to decide. But I think it's safe to say that PAO is not limited to just the things the referenced spells can do.

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Inspired by the classic Cooper-Fowler party game "Counterfactuals", my point was that in a world where dead people really do rise up and kill the living from time to time, is it possible that society might have developed different funerary and corpse disposal practices? Where dislocating jaws and severing the extremities of the recent dead is not only commonplace, but expected.

Also, if their rate of inclusion in adventure modules is any indicator, I would say that undead uprisings are pretty frequent in all parts of Golarion. Most people would probably know someone who knew someone who claimed to have encountered a skeleton or zombie.

If you have even one divine caster or anyone with ranks in Knowledge: Religion in the party, then knowing basic stuff about low level undead probably isn't metagaming.

Also, and more importantly, humans have an almost compulsive need to create and share stories (both real and fiction); drawing inspiration from a wide variety of sources. Parents make up cautionary tales to keep their kids safe. Local news outlets alert audiences of virus outbreaks, describe symptoms and issue instructions on how to stay healthy. The modern film industry even has taught me to look in my back seat before getting in my car.

Why should we think that the campfires, bedsides, barstools and town sqares of Golarion would be any different than ours.

Golarion is filled with magic. There's an entire nation filled with undead. Surely someone has written a play set in Geb about a pair of star-crossed young lovers. Or a romantic thriller about a love triangle between quick, dead, and thrall involving a kitchen knife and a boiled pet rabbit.

Let's allow Golarion to have a rich literary culture, filled with entertaining and enlightening news and stories. And let's allow our PCs to learn from them.

Hmm. Interesting. Never tried gestalt. I like the idea though.

Lately I've been imagining a flexible Quing Gong-type archetype for every Pathfinder class.

For example: if you don't need Armor training or proficiency - swap them out for an extra combat or teamwork feat.

Imagine every class feature in a base class and all of its archetypes gets weighted and grouped by level availability. Let the player build their own fighter how they want, as long as they honor the guidelines.

I Can't help but wonder how much player and GM opinions of multiclassing and dipping is influenced by where they land on the chaos/law axis. Might be interesting to research/survey. I tend toward CG in real life, myself.

Cool. And do you play or allow multiclassing?

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To the original topic . . .

Multi-classing players are too often accused of cherry picking and power gaming the class system. I hear those comments, either from my GM or other players, almost every session. 

Fortunately, Pathfinder, just like real life, allows mid-career profession changes, sometimes with similar motivations and cost/benefit relationships. We humans tend to pursue both our interests and our needs to varying degrees. We meander on our journeys to becoming who we are. 

If it's ok for us real people to make our own way through life, why must our player characters hop on just one train and ride it to a pre-determined capstone?

If my own real life work history was statted out in Pathfinder's class format (with years in notation), I would be a . . .

Factory Worker 1/ Data Entry Clerk 1/Computer Tutor 1/Programmer 2/Teacher 10/ Administrator 3/Artist 1

. . . which is might be equivalent to . . . 

Commoner 3/ Wizard 2/ Expert 10/ Aristocrat 3/ Bard 1

Looking at this "resume shorthand", it might appear that I just woke up one morning and decided to cast code or craft art. 

In reality, every career adjustment in my life had a story element attached to it - some hard work, a  bit of serendipity, a bad case of nepotism, youthful naïveté, unmanaged burnout, desperation, bliss. 

So here's my challenge to the posters on this thread . . . 

Stat up and share your real life professional resume in Pathfinder class notation, similar to the example above. Count years of paid employment only. 

Then tell us again what you think of multiclassing in Pathfinder. 

Think of an intelligent weapon as if it were a spellcasting familiar. It would use its turn and actions, not its master's.

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