this is a weird one, so bear with me. My players have the tendency to mutilate the fallen bodies of all the humanoids they defeat. They smash the faces and remove the jaws to prevent their foes from using Speak With Dead on their fallen, and they chop off the feet to prevent them from being raised as effective zombies or ghouls. I can understand the practicality behind this behavior but seriously... it's creeping me out! Have any other DM's observed similar behavior in their players, and what do you do about it?... allow it? Overlook it? Divert them so how?
Have numerous blood feuds declared because their behavior.
Alternately, you could just ask them not to do it, as its creeping you out.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, my first question would be, has leaving in tact corpses behind come back to bite them in the past? This seems like pretty extreme precautions to take, usually that means a bad past experience.
In the end though, talking to them about it is the best solution, if they dont change after a rational human to human conversation, well, are any of them clerics or paladins? Deities often can look down on such practices. Maybe working to establish mutilation of the dead as a taboo in the setting?
If you want to solve this in game you can indeed have them come back as ghosts, or you can let the body's be made in to an awfull flesh golem. maybe put in a sugestion that the body's can be cremated is stead of being shopped-up.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Another question: would you consider repeated mutilation of the fallen an Evil act? Or just a morally questionable one?
I think I had a cleric cast Animate Dead once on some fallen minions and they rose up as zombies and attacked the party. This was back in 3rd Edition D&D, and the players have never forgotten it. Yet they still take this precaution, even with completely different characters who have never faced that situation.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Tell your players they're doing it wrong. Too much work. It's easier to just throw some lamp oil and torch the bodies to ashes. It also prevents most ressurection magic, and the character can claim it's a sacred death ritual in his culture if the authorities ask.
Honestly, I'm kinda torn on this one. It strikes me as being like the guy who shoots his buddy after he gets bitten by a zombie--is it wrong, evil, questionable, or just pragmatic?
In this sort of setting, where bodies can very realistically come back to "get" the PCs via raising the dead or necromancy, then doing something to prevent unholy vengeance is actually rather smart. However, this can be just as, if not more, easily done by cremating the bodies, rather than mutilating them.
It's one thing to feel the need to bury the dead, or burn the bodies, but cutting of the jawbones, smashing in the skulls, and chopping off limbs? That's serious stuff, there. Almost serial-killer, insane sort of activities. Definitely have them looked down on if anyone finds out about it, because mutilating bodies to that extent is just plain STRANGE, if not outright evil.
There's also the question of general mood and gore. Is this a gritty, realistic game, or a horror style? If so, then these activities seem to fit in, even if they're a little creepy. If this is high adventure, typical fantasy though, it's very odd for PC "heroes" to be chopping up the bodies of those they meet. Also, how do you run combats? Do you describe the brutal realities of fighting, or is it just "The fighter rolled a 24 to hit, and deals 13 damage"?
Finally, it's up to you as the GM. If this just goes beyond what you're comfortable with, tell them so. It's your game, your call. Whether or not you want to promise never to raise, animate, or speak with the dead--I wouldn't personally, since that cuts off a whole possible enemy idea--tell them to cut it out if you don't like it. Alternatively, streamline it as a generic, default action: assume that they do whatever to the bodies in every case, and just don't describe it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd suggest a lot of professional psychiatric help.
To promote the burning of the dead(rather than mutilation), I suggest leaving more torches and lamp oil with treasure.
This. Also leaving a wands of decompose corpse around could help. At least that way they're just smashing bones.
My arcane trickster has such a wand in order to collect and sell unusual specimens to the Mage guild.
|
Tell your players they're doing it wrong. Too much work. It's easier to just throw some lamp oil and torch the bodies to ashes. It also prevents most ressurection magic, and the character can claim it's a sacred death ritual in his culture if the authorities ask.
IRL it takes more than a little accelerant to reduce a corpse to ashes. That's why cultures that practice traditional cremation (i.e. methods developed prior to the development of the modern crematorium) use a very large funeral pyre for each body to be cremated.
I'd say that 1 flask of alchemist's fire per body would be more appropriate, but that could get pretty expensive following a typical PC vs NPC massacre. I don't think you should have to agree never to use speak with dead or animate dead to persuade your players to stop mutilating bodies, however. Those are valid tools in the GM's arsenal if used sparingly. Perhaps you could assure them that you'll give them some in-game clue when they're going up against a baddie who might use those tactics if in return they'll cut down on the corpse mutilation.
This sounds like a good reason to introduce variant revenants. I'd go with some sort of incorporeal undead that sends a ghostly spirit after the PCs rather than the actual body itself.
I'd give those without a mouth Silent Spell on all spell-casting (like a skeletal mage) and some sort of voice-stealing or silence power.
Those whose legs have been removed should have flight and the ability to restrict the movement of their foes or maim them in a like manner.
Most of all, they should seek "replacement" parts from their tormenters. Have them keep coming back until their bodies are restored or until they have afflicted the same atrocities upon the PCs bodies as they received themselves.
This solves the issue of it being more efficient and practical for the PCs to disfigure and mutilate the corpses of their enemies as they may just be arranging the creation of more efficient undead.
You could just talk to the players and tell them that their characters' actions are a bit creepy and either come to a gentleman's agreement that they have taken precautions that need not be spelled out in gruesome detail and you'll find another way to challenge them. This is generally how many groups handle dealing with “evil PC” issues, which I think the mutilation of the bodies of your fallen foes is pretty much right on target for going to team evil (and not just for the cookies).
Personally, I'm a bigger fan of option 1, but I love variant undead and seeing the repercussions of in-game actions come out in game. :-)
-TimD
Another question: would you consider repeated mutilation of the fallen an Evil act? Or just a morally questionable one?
In most cultures, desecrating the fallen is generally considered to be morally unacceptable and is certainly a dishonourable action - the same as raising them as zombies could be so considered. In some cultures, where it is believed that the body must be as close to inviolate as possible to ensure entry to the afterlife it would be an evil act.
I think if you want to make the point that this is a pointless exercise you could send them after the party as a different form of undead - lots of possibilities, including a gestalt monstrosity, poltergeists, haunts etc.
If you want to get subtle, have them discover that one of the fallen had information that they needed and that, of course, they can no longer get. Or that they need to raise one from the dead...
You could always just point out to them that this kind of thing is frowned upon in their culture, and they have no reason to do this kind of thing. Ultimately they are doing it because they have slipped into a "players vs DM" mentality after all. Just point out that if you WANT to send foes after them, you WILL, regardless of what they do about it, so there's no point being the corpse desecration squad except to be creepy.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can understand the practicality behind this behavior but seriously... it's creeping me out!
*shrug* I think it's smart playing. NEVER punish/prohibit/look down upon smart playing.
If the discussion of mutilation really bothers you, make an agreement with the players that they will do said mutilation every time to creatures that speak or creatures that walk. This prevents the players from having to constantly repeat the same gory details over and over.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm probably in the minority when I say that the idea of someone mutilating dead bodies doesn't really bother me on any moral grounds (it's just gross); it's not like the dead person cares, and even if they did when they were alive, they're dead now so their opinion doesn't count for much anymore. It's also a very pragmatic thing to do given all the rampant magic in the DnD universe; whether it's something their characters would do is another matter and varies of course based on the character.
Player alignments? Your players are being overly cautious, allowing character bleed from situations in past games influence actions in this game(this is bad on their part), and the characters actions are excesively creepy, Jeffrey Dahmer creepy. I would have the undead varians start to track them down as TimD suggested. I would also start to give them small penalties for their interactions with people (behind the GM screen at first, then openly) as they start to think more and more about the dismembered bodies they leave behind. Have them start to have bad dreams, then nightmares, then dreams where they enjoy the mutilation. Maybe even give them something from the Book of Vile Darkness, I think there is stuff on psychosis in there, to emphasise they're turn to questionable actions.
Or you could tell them to out of game to stop being so damn paranoid, much less fun than messing with them ingame.
Edit: There is psychosis in SRD too, from the Gamemastery Guide.
Unless they have a particular enemy that has been raising to go after the PCs and/or their patrons, its desecration of the dead, and some funerary gods followers should probably do something about it.
I personally have done similar things after reading the greyhawk novels written by Paul Kidd (White Plum Mountain, Decent into the Depths of the Earth, and Queen of the Demon Web Pits), where a ranger did this because of the tendancy of Iuz to make undead armies. It was seen as an extreme measure in an extreme situation. Not a normal practice, so I've only done it when the nemesis was a necromancer/undead cleric/lich ect.
Sounds like an elite team of murder hobos to me.
The only real issues are roleplaying ones. Is it evil to mutilate the dead (for a practical purpose, at least)? Probably not, but I couldn't see paladins and good aligned clerics of certain deities doing it. Is it ignoble? Probably, I couldn't see more uptight characters doing it all the time. Is it logical? By the standards of the game world, yes (because of the aforementioned spells). But if the characters don't have a reason to know this (good knowledge arcana or religion, previous experience) it doesn't make much sense.
Why does it disturb you? I mean, unless it is described in explicit fashion or is done gleefully I can't see the problem with: "we remove the jaw and hack off the feet before moving on."
I've only done this once in-game as a highwayman who was robbing/killing a necromancer who he commissioned to make him a magical item. That situation, at least, seemed to make sense.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In an universe where it is known the undead exist, and magic can raise the dead, or force secrets from them, this is a pragmatic choice, and likely nonevil act.
It is intent that defines evil acts.
Frankly, such a thing is not only not disturbing to me, it is also some thing I would likely do if recently confronted with undead, or had heard rumors of nearby undead or necromancers.
Let it happen off-screen. Simply ask "do you destroy the corpse?", and if they answer "yes", then be done with it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In my game both the honorable barbarian from the superstitous Northlands and the cultured paladin agree on what to do with corpses of fallen humanoid enemies: They honor their fallen enemies with a ritual funeral pyre.
Corpse mutilation is an evil act in my book.
It's one thing to feel the need to bury the dead, or burn the bodies, but cutting of the jawbones, smashing in the skulls, and chopping off limbs? That's serious stuff, there. Almost serial-killer, insane sort of activities. Definitely have them looked down on if anyone finds out about it, because mutilating bodies to that extent is just plain STRANGE, if not outright evil.
LOL LOL LOL by the way your avatar looks like the kind of guys who will do those things!
Isn't there a spell to restore corpses?
Anyway, you can go two routes:
1) Suggest they do the more sane thing: burn the bodies
2) Have them get chased by restless ghosts of footless, faceless monsters.
Isn't there a spell to restore corpses?
Anyway, you can go two routes:
1) Suggest they do the more sane thing: burn the bodies
2) Have them get chased by restless ghosts of footless, faceless monsters.
You can restore flesh, but not bone (AFAIK).
Burning the bodies is not practical in all situations, as has been mentioned up-thread (dungeons being the best example of where it would be silly).
Your (2) suggestion seems like punishing the players for making a logical decision in a universe with necromancers. Do ghosts of those killed by ogres and then flayed and sometimes raped wipe out the ogre population?
They are not ME's, closer to your soldier comparison. Soldier usually have a code of honor for their fallen enemies, this usually doesn't involve removing body parts. I know in the crazy world of fantasy land this game is played in there are things to think about, to be pragmatic isn't a bad thing, but actions have consequences.
My issues is the character bleed the OP talked about:
I think I had a cleric cast Animate Dead once on some fallen minions and they rose up as zombies and attacked the party. This was back in 3rd Edition D&D, and the players have never forgotten it. Yet they still take this precaution, even with completely different characters who have never faced that situation.
I hate it as a GM when players do this. There are acceptible amounts of this. Like placing a balanced bottle on your inn room's door handle as an alarm, but systematically dismembering every humanoid you encouter is over the line in my book.
Isn't there a spell to restore corpses?
Anyway, you can go two routes:
1) Suggest they do the more sane thing: burn the bodies
2) Have them get chased by restless ghosts of footless, faceless monsters.You can restore flesh, but not bone (AFAIK).
Burning the bodies is not practical in all situations, as has been mentioned up-thread (dungeons being the best example of where it would be silly).
Your (2) suggestion seems like punishing the players for making a logical decision in a universe with necromancers. Do ghosts of those killed by ogres and then flayed and sometimes raped wipe out the ogre population?
Oh, sorry, I was joking if that wasn't clear.
Oh, sorry, I was joking if that wasn't clear.Isn't there a spell to restore corpses?
Anyway, you can go two routes:
1) Suggest they do the more sane thing: burn the bodies
2) Have them get chased by restless ghosts of footless, faceless monsters.You can restore flesh, but not bone (AFAIK).
Burning the bodies is not practical in all situations, as has been mentioned up-thread (dungeons being the best example of where it would be silly).
Your (2) suggestion seems like punishing the players for making a logical decision in a universe with necromancers. Do ghosts of those killed by ogres and then flayed and sometimes raped wipe out the ogre population?
Ahh, sorry. I think I missed it because you started out serious.
Of course if you want to have fun, you could have a cabal of necromancers stick multiple corpses together into one large undead creation =)
Using the splintered legs as stabby fingers!
wth do they actually DO with all those feet and jawbones?? Do they carry them around? or ?
Would be really funny to have them fight a necromancer who animates all the feet to literally kick their butt =D
wth do they actually DO with all those feet and jawbones?? Do they carry them around? or ?
Would be really funny to have them fight a necromancer who animates all the feet to literally kick their butt =D
I assumed they were in the process of creating a meat organ (as in the instrument but made out of meat).
|
Lots of ways to ask them not to or keep it off screen, in addition though I'm a fan of in game consequences. Ghosts, revenets, necromancers stitching bodies back, using bits to make flesh golems, outraging others with their foul acts, or in the case of some settings dark forces using this a a window of corruption are all fun and fair game in my book.
I would keep your solution on screen if at all possible, it can add to the campain with plot hooks and new bad guys. If the players don't get it start being heavy handed. Heavy handed can be you saying something out of game or hitting the characters over the head with something really overt in game.
Yes, a couple of Wands of Decompose Corpse should do it.
Just be glad you don't have an Animal(or the like) PC who reeeeeeeeeeaaally likes to roleplay.
Man, that reminds me why I only play DnD online now.
I went to my university's games club one evening, an orientation for new members. I sat down at a oneshot adventure that had a couple of other new kids, and a couple of regulars.
The regulars had a fighter and a druid.
The Fighter stayed at the tavern rather than taking the plot hook to investigate the swamp, seducing the bar owner's wife then killing the bar owner when discovered.
The Druid left the fight as soon as the first enemy fell, to chew on him in panther form, leaving the three of us to take care a fight that was meant for five people.
I never returned.
Back on topic: I echo cremation. Consider yourself lucky that they don't mutilate living enemies in interrogation.
My players have done similarly (they usually suffice with decapitation), but only when they suspect that the corpse was or could easily become an undead. Although the summoner has been known to have his eidolon gnaw a bit on the fallen as well. He is evil.
Didn't help them much when an NPC was killed by a shadow.
I think I had a cleric cast Animate Dead once on some fallen minions and they rose up as zombies and attacked the party. This was back in 3rd Edition D&D, and the players have never forgotten it. Yet they still take this precaution, even with completely different characters who have never faced that situation.
Oh, I was going to ask if they had been playing Dead Space. It took me three different times of something like this happening before I started stomping limbs off corpses. Well anyway, this is quite a bit of metagaming. While it is possible to create undead from the enemy bodies, it is rarely a common enough occurrence to justify this. Remember, most sentient being are probably of the commoner class, so while magic might be prevalent, magic users are still a minority, especially those specialized in necromancy. Even in the example of your use of Zombies was more of a "last ditch effort that... recycles lost resources" rather than a concerted effort to turn every fallen minion into an undead minion. The act would be seen as form of derangement on the part of the characters at best, and possibly evil acts at worst.
The solution has already been suggested that you should call a truce with your players to reassure them that this is unnecessary. Not to say that you can't use zombies and other undead, just let it be "caravan destroyed long before we got there" and "fallen adventurers in ancient cursed temple" kind of thing. Try not to use the spells in front of them anymore.
Although the suggestion of "burn 'em all" does have an appeal. Cremation was often used on battlefields to prevent problems with rotting corpses and disease. It can be written off as either good or evil (respectful burial or a final middle finger at the dead). The fact that it is a different kind of genre savy since it stops most resurrection is just frosting. And lets be honest, it is easier to gloss over a rotting corpse than a mutilated one for a GM.
Well anyway, this is quite a bit of metagaming. While it is possible to create undead from the enemy bodies, it is rarely a common enough occurrence to justify this. Remember, most sentient being are probably of the commoner class, so while magic might be prevalent, magic users are still a minority, especially those specialized in necromancy.
Thank you for this, it makes so much sense. What this kind of comes down to for me, apart from what I said earlier, is that it's clearly metagaming. If the players are doing this because they once faced a necromancer who raised undead minions, as different characters, then there's no excuse for their current actions as their current characters. These adventurers presumably have no experience with undead, and like lemeres said, even if undead aren't unheard of, magic-users, especially necromancers, are reasonably rare. So it's uncalled for that the PCs are doing what they're doing, to the extent they're doing it.