Developer
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There's a lot of talk of people asking if others have seen their own items pop up in voting, but I have a similar but differently slanted question to pose.
Is there anyone who's had your own item come up and who voted for the other entry because you recognized that it was better than your own?
I did not vote against mine the 4 times I saw it. I honestly thought it was the better item each time, although on the 3rd time I was considering voting for the other item.
I saw my item a few times. I'm not sure if I ever voted against it, but I thought about it a few times. There was one time in particular where I thought both were equally good, and it came down to the template, with the other item having one more mistake than mine.
I've only seen my own item twice, and both times it was paired with something truly awful. I have seen many, many things -- dozens...scores -- I'd vote for over my own item, but the opportunity didn't come up.
Some of the items I thought were cooler than mine were made specifically for PC classes I will never play myself. That was a bit of cognitive dissonance for me: "I have zero interest in ever playing That Class...but if I ever did, I would sooooo want that item!"
I have saw mine 4x, 2 before the cut 2 after.
The third time I saw it it took me along time to judge it.
I only saw mine twice, and I voted for it both times. Both times the other item fell into one of my no-vote categories (broken, uninspired, not-understandable).
I DID NOT add it to my keep pile however, there are (at least :) 19 items in there better than mine.
Saw mine five times, each time against notable weak items.
So I never voted against it, though there are definitely some that would have made me do so if the match had come up.
Star Voter Season 6
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I didn't submit an item, but if I did and then saw my item and a better item come up, I would have a hard time trying to choose my own over the other item that would have had to wow me. Honestly, not sure what I would have done (hypothetically speaking). :)
I'm sure it's a much easier question to answer when you've actually had it happen rather than trying to assume what you would do. It's pretty subjective.
I saw my own item three times and each time it was paired with decreasingly weaker items. The first time it was paired with an item I had seen once before and voted for it then, but it was still not as good as I believe mine to be. So... no. I voted for my own all three times.
And I really hope that it was my item Thomas voted for 25 times. His description was spot on.
I saw mine only twice...against weak items...so no.
Interesting. So, so far in this thread (unless I've been ninja'd) the only person to actually vote against their own item is the epic champion voter. I never had the chance, myself. I never had my own item come up. It's hard to say if I could have brought myself to vote against it. I really like my item. :)
Mark, could you have pmg use some SQL magic to figure this out?
I saw my item once and voted for it but it was an honest vote! :)
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8
aka Jiggy
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It followed the template perfectly, had a novel mechanic, and a tight theme.
That was totally mine. ;)
I saw my own item about 4-5 times. It was always the better item, but a couple of items were close enough to make me nervous. And although I didn't record items like some others did, I know there were a few that I might have voted for over mine.
I saw my item three times before the cull and three times afterward. I voted for it each time.
But I had to think about it one of the post-cull times. And there were definitely items I saw that I would have voted for over my own, had they been paired.
The cull was when the official Paizo folk chopped off the bottom 25% of items midway through voting because they had enough data to rule out those items as potential Superstars and wanted to let all the dedicated voters have more access to sorting all the items with potential to win without having to slog through the no-chance items again and again.
Yeah no way, I was up against a middling item that I would have voted against anyway. I've seen maybe 3 items I'd vote against myself on and I never got that pairing
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Mark, could you have pmg use some SQL magic to figure this out?
Not without violating the anonymity of the items. I suppose he could get "User XX voted for his own item XX times".... but what's the value in that?
I suspect the question is more about provoking thought and starting a conversation than getting exact results regardless.
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I saw my item in total about 7 times, it was up against what I believed were poorer items 5 times and superstar items twice.
I will admit, it was so very hard admitting to myself that the other items beat it, and I will admit the countdown to activate the buttons was well and truly exceeded before making those two votes.
I voted honestly and gave those two items their deserved votes. I believe that was the only professional and honest vote I could have made. Did I think mine wasn't potential top 32, no, were those two items better - hand on heart, yes they were.
Being true to the competition and voting appropriately is all we can ask and strive to do really.
I saw my item twice, and voted for it both times.
In truth I would have to have been up against something truly epically cool to vote against my own item, simply because I truly feel that it deserves the Top 32. That said, I will freely admit that there were 2-3 items that I do feel would have been more deserving if the pairing came.
Hope this does not come across as conceited - as others have said, once the template is mostly out of the way, it becomes much harder to compare different ideas, making one's own item an easy vote ;-)
I came close only once out of 8 times viewing my item. I was very fortunate in the pairings. That one time...
It was the longest vote of all 5000+. I took a good 5 minutes of looking at them both. I really like my entry, but the other was well done. In the end it had enough flaws that I could say no and vote for my own, but it was a close thing. I know I would have voted my item down had one of four items I have seen in the competition that were really great come up against it. Fortunately, I never had that circumstance come up. :)
I saw my item once post-cull. Voted for it. :p
Ok, you haven't logged many votes / you see your item for the very first time...
Did you vote for it thinking "might be the only chance I get" / "well, one vote won't make much difference and at least I won't score zero"?
*raises hand sheepishly*
I saw the other item a few times afterwards, in case you are wondering, and confirmed the vote wasn't so bad :)
Marathon Voter Season 6
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Saw it three times, voted for it three times. I never saw any items period I could definitively call better than mine; overall wondrous items do not excite me however. There were a few items I thought cool, but all of them had problems of usability in a campaign despite how neat they were.
Nope. Got lucky enough that while I had definitely seen much better items than mine, I didn't see my item paired with any of them the few times it did come up.
I was scraping the bottom of the barrel, is what I'm saying. =)
Only saw my item once, and of course just auto voted for it.
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I feel like there's a really weird self-flagellating vibe creeping in here. Like people feel the need to justify having the audacity to vote for their own items because the other item was clearly just slightly inferior. I know that wasn't the intent in starting the thread, and the people who did vote against their own items aren't at all coming off as holier than thou for having done so, but regardless there's a creeping sense of morality that comes across whenever this question comes up, here and in some of the other voting threads.
So at the risk of coming across as a jerk, I'll say that if this voting method had been in effect the years I was a competitor, there is not even the slightest hint of a doubt in my mind: I'd never vote against my own item. No, not even if it was against that year's equivalent of the last leaves of the autumn dryad or the batrachian helm. It wouldn't even be a passing consideration; I'd see my item pop up and the 'xx is better' would get clicked right away. I might pause long enough to read the opposing entry out of curiosity, but that would be about it.
This isn't saying that I'd believe my item was automatically better; I think it's fairly safe to say that both of my wondrous item entries weren't the elites of their years, and to be honest, even a number of rejected items from the critique threads could be viewed as better. But that would be irrelevant to me, because it's my item, and I would want to be part of the contest.
You know how every year the judges repeat the mantra that they're not necessarily looking for the best wondrous item, they're looking for the best designer? Same principle applies here, except you're the judge. And while for most entries you only have the wondrous item itself to pick out the best designer, you have a very special advantage for your own entry: you know what you can do. Even if your item is less stellar than something it's paired with, you still know what you're capable of. If you're sure that regardless of your own wondrous item entry, you still have a killer archetype/monster/npc/location/encounter/adventure idea on deck, then you're cheating yourself by NOT voting your item up. Your own entry is the one place where you KNOW the overall strengths of the designer rather than an unknown quantity who just might make a nifty magic item. And yes, in the long run your one vote might not make much of a difference, but why cost yourself even that one vote?
If you did vote down your own item, mind you, I'm not condemning; I'll admit the thought process there is a little alien to me, but there's certainly nothing wrong with taking a more altruistic view of the voting process. But I really just want to state for the record as well: there's nothing wrong with having voted for your own item, regardless of the quality of the competition. It does not make you a bad person. It's not cheating. It's not unfair. And honestly, it's not even selfish; it's just displaying longer term confidence in yourself as well as rational self-interest.
Mark, could you have pmg use some SQL magic to figure this out?Not without violating the anonymity of the items. I suppose he could get "User XX voted for his own item XX times".... but what's the value in that?
I suspect the question is more about provoking thought and starting a conversation than getting exact results regardless.
This is the type of data I had in mind when I asked the question, and I'd still like to see it in a postmortem:
Of the users who saw their item, what percentage of those users voted against it at all?
Of the users who saw their own item against one of the top 64 items, what percentage voted against the top 64 items at least once? Assuming their item didn't hit the top 64.
Of those who saw their item, what as the average length of time they spent viewing those the pairs that contained their item?
Even if your item is less stellar than something it's paired with, you still know what you're capable of. If you're...
Though I honestly believe my item was better each of the three times I saw it paired with something, I'm right there with Sean.
I don't think you can expect anyone to vote against their best interests. If you want to win this competition and have confidence in your abilities to do so, vote for yourself. And nobody should judge you for it.
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Didn't vote against it because I don't think either of the items I saw it paired with were as good, but I'm not sure I would have voted against it even if they were.
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No. I entered the contest because I felt I had a superstar idea, not an also-ran. So it was going to take a truly superstar item to beat mine. One that could actually beat the bias I have towards my own item.
I'll admit that one item came very close, but in the end I voted for my own item every time. Still, I'll be shocked if a couple of the items mine was pitted against don't make the top 32.
...You know how every year the judges repeat the mantra that they're not necessarily looking for the best wondrous item, they're looking for the best designer? Same principle applies here, except you're the judge....
hehe, I got called out for that when I said that elsewhere :)
There's a lot of talk of people asking if others have seen their own items pop up in voting, but I have a similar but differently slanted question to pose.
Is there anyone who's had your own item come up and who voted for the other entry because you recognized that it was better than your own?
I never ended up seeing my own item, but more than a dozen times I ran across another specific item that was VERY thematically similar to it. I actually ended up voting for that item more often than not, although I'm not sure if that's self-gratifying or condemning of my own item.
I only saw my item 4 times during the voting period, and never up against something that I would have seriously considered better than it (although I did see maybe 9-10 items that I did think were better than it during the voting process, a couple clearly so).
Never voted against my item, because I never saw it. I did realize there were several changes I wanted to make after submitting, but I'm still fairly happy with how it turned out.
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Marathon Voter Season 6
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I saw my item four times (all post-cull) and voted for it each time. I was really proud of my item and the effort I put into it and so I think I would have really struggled to vote against it despite seeing lots of good items (I had 85 in my "keep" word doc) across the voting period.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
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I voted for my item all three times I saw it. If it was one of the items I saw lots of times, perhaps I might have voted against it if it was up against a really cool item, but there's very few items in that list.
I see it as being like voting against your kid if they're running for office, no matter what you think of the other guy. Maybe if they've been in office already, and they're lousy but still trying to get re-elected, but for their very first time? Of course you'd vote for them. Or at least I think you should :)
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Star Voter Season 6
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I saw quite a few items better than mine. But those didn't come up against mine to make me have to choose.
I learned a lot about what to do better next time, but I do think my item was better than the item it was matched against the one time I saw it.
I saw my item 4 times and voted for it 3 of those and against it once.
1st time: voted for it simply because i was geeked to finally see it.
2nd time: voted for it because i thought it was better than the other item.
3rd time(post cull): voted against it because the other item was much better and more superstar than mine.
4th time(post cull): voted for it because the other item - while being very cool and original - was riddled with template errors and spelling mistakes.
Star Voter Season 6
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Out of the three times I saw mine, I'll admit I only voted for it twice. The third time it came up, it was the first time (but not the last) that the other came up. It was Superstr enough for me to vote for it. Do I think mine beat it or it beat mine? Neither really. It's just Id voted for mine at that point and I thought this one deserved a chance as well.
Never saw mine - couldn't vote against it.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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This is the type of data I had in mind when I asked the question, and I'd still like to see it in a postmortem:
Of the users who saw their item, what percentage of those users voted against it at all?
Of those who saw their item, what as the average length of time they spent viewing those the pairs that contained their item?
This number is bound to be hopelessly skewed. Its nearly impossible to give a non-biased assessment of your own works versus others.
Of the users who saw their own item against one of the top 64 items, what percentage voted against the top 64 items at least once? Assuming their item didn't hit the top 64.
Based on my understanding of the system, after the first week or so of the contest, the majority of pairings are versus items with similar ratings. For example after just a few days, it's likely the the top 300 items had emerged and were being paired with other top 300 items. As the contest progresses the granularity increases. So the chances a particular item was paired against a top 64 item *and* the creator of the item viewed it during such a pairing are slim unless the creator's item was ranked in the top 100. As the contest progressed, the odds of such a pairing decreased daily.
If Bob voted 100 times in the first day. the chances Bob saw his own item on that day's voting was roughly one in ten. The chances Bob's item was paired against a top 64 item were also roughly 1 in 10. So for every 100 votes, Bob had a 1 chance in 100 of seeing their item paired with a top 64 item due to blind chance. If Bob saw his item 10 times, his chances of seeing it paired to a top 64 item due to random chance are less than 1 in 10.
As the contest progressed, the odds changed rapidly. For example if Bob's "Abacus of Statistically Insignificant Insights" is ranked 80th and he's voting near the end of the contest, the system is more likely to pair the abacus against items ranked between 40 and 120. The chances Bob's Abacus bumps into a top 64 item are pretty decent, but I suspect the gap in quality between item #80 and item #59 isn't that huge so it's not unreasonable for him to prefer his item. Is anyone still reading this?
All these numbers are *super crude* and to illustrate a point. While it's unlikely they are accurate, I think they are representative. For example, the abacus was probably ranked 78th rather than 80th.
Man I never saw the abacus. :)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Man I never saw the abacus. :)
Just goes to show no matter how many times you voted, there's still a chance you missed an item ;)
By random chance on day 1 if you assume 1000 items:
If there were 1000 items, the chances of seeing your item after 100 random pairings is about 18.1%. If there were 1200 items, the chances decrease to 12%.
The chances any specific pairing includes a top 64 item: 64/ 999 or 64.1%
In this case you can simply multiply the probabilities: .181 * .0641 = 1.15%. So my original 1% chance for each 100 votes was actually pretty reasonable. More votes increases the chances of such a pairing, but even if you voted 5000 times, there is only a 44% chance you would see your item paired with a top 64 item.
Obviously this is just applies to purely random pairings. After the system 'learned' to make better pairings, the probability of being paired increased or decreased based on how good the item was.