Killian Paltreth

Sean H's page

Goblin Squad Member. RPG Superstar 6 Season Star Voter. Organized Play Member. 503 posts (511 including aliases). 4 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 9 Organized Play characters. 1 alias.


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I have an old Bard/Poisoner Rogue I stopped playing a long time ago, as I didn't really like how he played.

Looking through Occult Adventures however, I realized Mesmerist would be perfect for the initial concept I had for him. I know I can pay PP+Gold to retrain my Bard/Rogue levels into Mesmerist levels, but since only classes with Poison Use are allowed to have poisons in PFS, I'm wondering what happens to the unused poisons I purchased with this character.

Do I keep them, even though I no longer have Poison Use?
Do I have to sell them back? If so, what happens if I bought them with PP?

How do these two interact?

The Bashing enhancement states that your shield does damage as if it were two size categories larger, and acts as a +1 weapon in combat.

The Shield Master feat says you add your shield's enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls as if it were your weapon's enhancement bonus.

So, if I have a +3 Bashing shield, does it:

- Function as a +4 weapon (+3 from enhancement bonus, +1 from bashing)
- Function only as a +3 weapon (With the +3 enhancement overriding the +1 from bashing)

If it's the former, I think it would be worth it for me because I would be essentially trading +1 to AC to go from a d4 to a d8.

If it's the later, I would rather just have a +4 shield since I would be not only be losing out on the +1 to AC, but also the +1 hit and damage from Shield Master.

master_marshmallow wrote:
Sean H wrote:
First off, Guided only adds your WIS to attack rolls, not damage.

Um, what?

Guided wrote:
Attacks from a guided weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier.
Emphasis mine.

Oops, I misread that. Looks like it does give the bonus to both attack and damage rolls.

jonhl1986 wrote:
so i guess getting guided is the best option since it would add to damage on flurry.

First off, Guided only adds your WIS to attack rolls, not damage.

Secondly, Guided is 3.5 material, NOT pathfinder material. Some GMs allow 3.5 material as a house-rule, but many do not. Ask your GM if it is okay for you to have a Guided weapon before building your character around this.

GinoA wrote:
Another question on this one. Does it affect normal, corporeal targets?

Only if they're made of ectoplasm.

Purge Spirit: Purge spirit rips away at the target's spiritual substance, scattering it over a wide area and hampering the target's ability to reform. The target takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) and is staggered for one round. On a successful saving throw, the target takes half damage and is not staggered. This spell affects astrally projected creatures, ethereal creatures, haunts, incorporeal creatures, mediums channeling a spirit, and phantoms, and at the GM's discretion can affect other spirits or creatures made of ectoplasm. Incorporeal creatures take full damage from purge spirit.

Hayden Rasch wrote:
How exactly do the rules work in society games? Do I just pay the creation cost once I meet the level requirements? My specific question is in regards to the PRC hellknight signifer. At the signifer's 1st level he gains a mask that takes up a head slot. It gives you some minor bonuses and for only 500 gp I can convert it into my bonded object. If I meet the caster level requirements can I have this mask function as any wonderous item that fits in the head slot? If so how twisted would it be to have a hellknight mask that can function as a crown of heaven. I could be completely wrong on how this works though so help would be appreciated.

Creation cost and fame requirements(of the price, not cost). So sure, you can turn your Bonded Object into a Crown of Heaven by paying 75,000 gp... but you have to wait until you have 67 fame to do so.

Claxon wrote:
It is probably technically legal. But your GM probably shouldn't allow it despite that.

Why not? I don't see any abuse of power that would make this combination OP in any way. As others have pointed out:

- The Contracted Person cannot charge the same staff as anyone else.
- The Original Caster must sacrifice a 5th/7th/9th level slot PER DAY.
- The Contracted Person can only charge a staff with, at maximum, 2nd/3rd/5th level spells.

Honestly, if someone wants to spend a 9th level spell slot to give an extra charge to a 5th level staff, I say let them. There are far more broken things to do with 9th level spells.

No, you gain exactly what it says: ⅙ of a combat feat.

Of course, ⅙ of a combat feat doesn't actually do anything at all, so you need take the favored class bonus 6 times, at which point you have one full combat feat to take.

Anyone know?

Goth Guru wrote:
So when I design the mutation where the creature can touch things and turn them into bombs, that's arcane because of Alchemists. Right?

Alchemists aren't arcane casters, so no. Also, I don't even think that's an SLA.

RedDogMT wrote:
Part of being a GM is saying 'no'. Players like to push the limit to see what they can get. It's just the way it is. So, get used to it because saying 'no' is gong to come up again and again and again.

Very much this. As a GM, it is far, far, far better to simply tell your player "I want you to build a character with a similar power level to the rest of the group." than it is to ban specific combinations they attempt.

Just tell your player your real objection (I think your character is too powerful for this campaign) and set him free to build a character in-line with the rest of the party. There are plenty of complicated but low-power builds your player may enjoy, but he may never attempt one of them if he doesn't know that's what you're looking for.

Avoron wrote:

Incidentally, has anyone examined the feasibility of a build that just fights with the darts themselves, not worrying about the poison but taking advantage of the touch attacks?

I'm trying to figure out how this would work.

Such attacks are considered melee touch attacks that deal 1d2 damage plus any bonuses you gain on your normal unarmed strike damage

Okay, so you're dropping down several die categories to target touch AC instead. You still get your STR bonus to damage, but I'm not sure how weapon enhancements would function. Could you enchant the darts themselves, or would you need an AoMF? Can you use an AoMF? I'm not sure.

The rules don't really cover this, err... creative use of prosthetics. You'll need to ask your GM and see what he says.

Johnny_Devo wrote:
Hmm. What if you combined that all with an aberrent sorcerer? You can flavor him as mister fantastic.

Or you could make Dhalsim!

Not only would those stack, as far as I can tell they would also stack with Long Arm and Longarm Bracers. 25' touch attacks may be overdoing it, though...

Anzyr wrote:
Sorry but, that isn't RAW. RAW, the feat is not needed, because you are no longer wearing the armor. And yes I think 19k for +6 AC over mage armor is well worth it. Compare the cost of other ways to get +6 AC. It's ridiculously low.

If you want to ignore developers and argue exclusively RAW then I say the feat is even more important:

Polymorph Subschool wrote:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way(with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).

'Melds' isn't defined as game term outside of this section. According to this section, when gear 'Melds':

1) Armor and shield bonuses cease functioning.
2) Activated items cannot be used.

Nothing in this section states that penalties cease to have any effect when gear melds. As such, by RAW you still have your Armor Check Penalty. Without Heavy Armor Proficiency, you're now taking a -6 penalty on all your attacks. Have fun!

Anzyr wrote:
And the amount of AC you get for the cost invested is simply to good to pass up for anything else.

I'm not so sure. You're paying 19,000 gp and a feat for 4 AC over Ice Armor.

You can get a Ring of Protection +3 for 18k and pick up Dodge and now I suddenly have the same AC bonus for 1,000gp less. Better, 4 of that also applies against touch attacks! Of course, this is assuming I WANT to spend all of that on AC. Personally I can think of many magic items I would rather have over a +3 Ring, and many feats I would rather take over Dodge.

I was reading over the Warpriest blessings, and noticed the following:

Enshrouding Darkness (minor): At 1st level, you can touch an ally and bestow a darkness blessing. For 1 minute, the ally becomes enshrouded in shadows while in combat, granting it concealment (20%). Creatures that are normally able to see in supernatural darkness ignore this concealment.

Would this work with the Fetchling's Shadow Blending?


Shadow Blending (Su): Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance.

TxSam88 wrote:


So the way I understand it is that by grabbing transmutation school I get +1 to a physical attribute always since its static. But by spending 1 point from my reservoir what happens? do I gain a +4 more to that attribute and then +5 to another?

If you're a level 20 Arcanist then yes, by spending 1 point you gain the benefits of that power as if you were a level 20 Wizard(+5 to two stats).

As for why that doesn't work in Hero Lab... maybe a bug? I don't have it, so I can't say why that's not updating correctly.

It could go either way, but I would say yes, you can detect the coin:

Concealing Pocket wrote:
Any magic item inside it cannot be magically detected, as if protected by magic aura.

This isn't a caret-blanch immunity to detection; it specifically works as magic aura would. Okay, so lets look at magic aura:

Magic Aura wrote:
You alter an item's aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were non-magical, or a magic item of a kind you specify, or the subject of a spell you specify.

The detection ability of Nesa's Coin doesn't seem to care about it's aura at all:

Nesa's Coin wrote:
This simple copper coin establishes a connection with the most recent person to keep it under her tongue for 24 hours. Once established, this connection allows its owner to determine its current direction and distance each time she casts detect magic. The connection instantly breaks if the coin travels to another plane or enters an antimagic field.

It simply says that whenever you cast detect magic, you also know the direction and distance of the coin. It doesn't seem to care if you can't detect the aura(either because you're too far away, or because there's a sheet of lead between you, or because the aura has been hidden with Magic Aura). As a result, Concealing Pocket or no, you would still know the direction and distance of Nessa's Coin.

Sensei? Easy to play him as a hands-off 'teacher' character.

His actions in combat would basically consist of Inspire Courage + Aid Another. Lets the PCs make all the decisions/perform all the actions, he just makes them slightly better at it.

Even provides a good in-character reason for why he's giving them advice.

EDIT: Missed the all martial proficiency thing. Erm... Cavalier? (Makes sense for a Squire-type). You can still do the Aid Another build, he just won't be quite as good at it.

Nothing in the rules allows for that. As written, Defoliant Polish has only two effects:

1) A creature wearing armor coated with Defoliant Polish (the bearer) can move through difficult terrain created by plants and vegetation without penalty.

2) A plant creature who attacks or grapples the bearer takes one point of damage per attack.

Based on that, you could dip a plant creature in a vat of the stuff and it would have absolutely no effect.

Do I think that is silly? Yes. Would I run it like that at my table? No. However, doing anything other than that is firmly in the territory of houserules.

So to answer your question: No, you cannot throw a vial of defoliant polish as anything other than an improvised weapon unless your GM rules otherwise. If you elect to use it as an improvised weapon, the fine object will deal 1 nonlethal damage on a hit, with no other effects.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't. Unfortunately while it looks possible, I don't know how useful it would be, since the spell lacks the "This weapon confers these special properties upon it's ammunition" clause that most magical weapons do. As a result, you would only get the extra damage if you physically hit someone with the bow.

Cyrad wrote:

By definition, a +1 weapon is a magical weapon.

Damage Reduction Rules wrote:
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Ah, even better!

LazarX wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Casting Magic Weapon does not make the weapon into a magic weapon, it grants an enhancement bonus to attack and damage and allows it to bypass DR/magic. Arcane pool would still have to use up +1 of its bonus before adding bonus equivalents.
"magical" is defined by that enhancement bonus.

There is a difference between a magical item and item with magic cast upon it. A lot of differences, actually. Permanence, cost, effect, dispellibility, targeting requirements, how it interacts with all sorts of one-off rules like arcane pool, etc.

In this case, Arcane Pool wants a magical weapon. A non-magical longsword is not made into a magic item when you cast Magic Weapon upon it. It is a non-magical weapon that is buffed to have a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage and bypass DR/magic. That's it. No hardness increase, no hit point increase, no resistance to various effects that target mundane items (e.g. shatter), nothing. Just what's listed and nothing more.

Considering the relatively low cost of a +1 weapon, this isn't actually a big deal in this case.

Can I get a rules citation on that?
There isn't one. Nor is there actually a direct citation in support of what you want to do. Both positions come down to GM discretion.

I had asked my GM, who told me to check the forums. I think enough people agree that Magic Weapon counts as the prerequisite that we're going to roll with that, though.

Kigvan wrote:
Sean H wrote:

The only thing I'm lacking is some sort of self-heal, but everything else works so well that I'm happy with this option.

Thanks again for everyone's help!

Not the most powerful but: Infernal Healing

Oh yeah, that will work! I'm sure the DM will be okay with me refluffing that as Replentishment.

Okay, cool. I guess I'll just be careful and make sure I don't use Arcane Pool when my duration is almost up. Thanks everyone!

Ithnaar wrote:

PCRogue meets Cleric, shakes his hand and blatantly steals ring. As the Cleric begins to react, PCFighter (preferably disguised as a city guard) punches PCRogue in the face "knocking them out cold", and, prying open PCRogue's *other* hand, casually hands the fake ring to the Cleric before hauling PCRogue off to "jail".

The best Con Job is one where the mark feels lucky that it happened...

Oh man, I love this one. So simple, yet so good.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. There are a lot of interesting options I never knew about!

Ultimately I'm going to build a Magus focusing on Metamagic, since that seems to let me hit pretty much everything major bullet point:


  • Melee Combatant: Martial Weapons + Medium Armor at level 7.
  • Lightning Spear: Reaching Shocking Grasp
  • Sunlight Spear: Empower/Maximize the above.
  • Sunlight Blade: Arcane Pool(Shock/Shocking Burst)
  • Emit Force: Reaching Force Punch

The only thing I'm lacking is some sort of self-heal, but everything else works so well that I'm happy with this option.

Thanks again for everyone's help!

Magus Arcane Pool wrote:

At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. [...] At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.

Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added.

Magic Weapon (Spell) wrote:
Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon's +1 bonus on attack rolls.

If I have a non-magical Rapier, can I cast Magic Weapon on it, then use my Arcane Pool to make it Keen?

If so, what happens if the Magic Weapon spell effect ends before the Arcane Pool enhancement does?

As cool as Words of Power are, I would like to avoid it since this GM's first time running, and I would like to keeps things relatively simple. VMC might be okay, since that's a little more straightforward.

Cavall wrote:
There's a half elf alch archtype that feeds off sunlight. Spears, armour, sun powered.. that's a good start. Even potion drinking for that dark souls feel!

Hmm... interesting. What is the archetype called?

Brendan Missio wrote:
Try this

There's some good lightning stuff in there, but not much combat.

Chess Pwn wrote:
A magus, shocking grasp gives the electric blade attacks. Pick up the reach metamagic for range lightning or wait for lightning bolt. It wears armor and is a melee class. Also it can enhance it's blade with shocking for even more electricity.

Ohh! I like this one. I considered Magus earlier, but the lack of ranged options made me look elsewhere... I never even considered Reach though, that would totally work!

Dark Souls wrote:
The Warriors of Sunlight are the followers of the firstborn of the Great Lord Gwyn. They harness the power of sunlight, manifested as lightning powers.

A friend of mine is going to be starting up a Dark Souls themed game soon, and I'm trying to work out what I want to play. I know thematically, I absolutely want to play a Warrior of Sunlight(WoS). Mechanically, I'm struggling to come up with a class that fits. If possible, I would like something that can hit all of these points:

  • Ranged lightning-based attack, similar to the Lightning Spear.
  • Competence in melee combat.
  • Ability to enhance melee attacks with lightning, similar to a Sunlight Blade
  • Ability to wear armor of some sort.

We're starting at level 5, and my pre-adjustment stats are 17, 13, 12, 12, 11, 8. It's okay if it will take a few levels for me to get some abilities.

EDIT: It's totally cool if I need to pick up something through using a magic item, as opposed to an innate class ability.

Dubgall wrote:
A spring loaded wrist sheathes will allow you to "draw" a wand as a swift action. It does provoke an AOA though

That provokes? Really? AFAIK, swift actions never provoke. Did that change?

In addition to the Witch Hunter rage power, barbarians can also get Spell Sunder rage power, which lets them dispel evil arcane magic by cutting it in half!

You can also have a couple Inquisitors with the Witch Hunter archetype for tracking down apostate casters, and at higher levels, fighters with the Spell Breaker feat.

Clerics can cast Spell Immunity on their allies if they know which of the evil magics the arcane casters favor.

These are all abilities which start kicking in around levels 6-10 though, so if your party is a lower level than that I'm not sure there's much you can do.

Another way of saying it would be that there is no such thing as non-magical Size bonuses. The bonus a large ogre gets to strength isn't a size bonus; it's part of being an ogre, the same way a medium orc gets a bonus to strength as part of being an orc.

AFAIK, the only way to obtain an actual Size bonus is through Polymorph spells(Either Enlarge/Reduce Person, or the X shape spells). These size bonuses never stack.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
deusvult wrote:

Fun fact:

The primary ability of Intimidate lacks the language on Diplomacy that prevents NPCs from using it on PCs.

So paladins certainly can be made to do what the intimidator wants, if only for 1d6x10 minutes.

Fear effects include spells with the fear descriptor, anything explicitly called out as a fear effect, anything that causes the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition, and all uses of the Intimidate skill. Intimidate, in particular, is a mind-affecting fear effect, so fearless and mindless creatures are immune to all uses of Intimidate.

Like that time I tried to use Blistering Invective on a room full of vampires. The only person who caught on fire was the dominated thrall. Good times, good times...

General Rook wrote:

Thanks, that really clears things up!

The last one was just an example if you had improved disarm, but didn't have improved trip. Would the enemy get an AoO in the middle of your flurry?

They would, but only if they still threaten you after you have relieved them of their weapon(either through IUS, natural attacks, or an off-hand).

SilverLinings wrote:

Ah, ok. So then follow up question: Is the benefit of gaining a life point contingent on getting the "effect of a critical" or merely "confirming the critical"?

When a weapon constructed of wyroot confirms a critical hit...

You need to confirm.

mplindustries wrote:
Your GM is wrong. If there was a save allowed every round, it would say so. Instead, you are plainly given the end conditions: the halted undead are attacked or damaged.


Hold Person grants a new save each round, but does not end if the target is attacked.

Halt Undead ends if the target(s) are attacked, but does not grant a new save each round.

I don't think we will get an FAQ on this, because the spell descriptions are pretty clear.

There's a couple Ioun Stones that grant their owners feats: White Pyramids grant a Weapon Proficiency, Dark Blue Rhomboids grant Alertness, and Scarlet Green Cabochons grant Endurance. Each of these cost 10,000.

To my knowledge, there aren't any slotted items which grant feats, but since slotless items like Ioun Stones typically cost double that of a slotted item, I would say 5,000gp is a decent price.

I think the interaction would cause all enemies within 30 feet to start bleeding while you still gain the sacred bonus on the chosen type of roll. Kind of powerful, but for a 20th level ability, I think that's okay.

For my next PFS character I have been considering playing a man from Hermea, but I'm not entirely sure how to run him. While there is a lot of discussion about Hermea the nation, there is comparatively little about people from Hermea. Looking through the wiki, the only relevant information I've found is this:


[Mengkare] periodically sends agents throughout Golarion to seek out the best, the brightest, the wisest, and the most beautiful to join him on Hermea in pursuit of utopia.

Other than that, I can't find any information about citizens of Hermea in the outside world. He could be an agent(There are certainly many great Pathfinders who could be recruited), but I would like more information before going that route. Would such an agent announce his presence, or be secretive? Would they deliberately test potential recruits, or only observe them passively? Would they search for other methods to enhance humanity(magic/technology/artifacts), or focus solely on recruitment?

Are there any other examples of Hermeans traveling to other lands? There's exiles of course, but that doesn't really fit my character concept.

1) Yes. "deals damage normally and detonates as if the alchemist had thrown the bomb at the target" - whatever the bomb would normally do if thrown will also happen here.

2) I think it's whatever order is most beneficial to the creature using the abilities(in this case the alchemist), but I'm not sure.

As per RAW, only evil.

Same penalties as Two-Weapon Fighting normally. Unarmed Strikes would count as light weapons, so -4/-8 without the feat and -2/-2 with it.

AFAIK, they don't interact at all. The T-Rex can either use x2 it's strength modifier, or 1.5x it's strength modifier.

My reasoning for this is that neither ability says that it increases the strength modifier; rather it sets the strength modifier at a certain value. Compare that to, say, Dragon Ferocity:

dragon ferocity wrote:
While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus.

That's very different language, and it seems to be written that way expressly to stack with the original bonus to Dragon Style:

dragon style wrote:
you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Yes, but you'd need a level of Monk (or a class/archetype that gives the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature). Unarmed Strikes can normally only be used with your fists, the Monk ability is what lets you use any part of your body.

You don't need Monk levels, actually(Though it certainly makes you much better at unarmed attacks if you have them):

PRD wrote:

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).

Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.

Dragon Ferocity wrote:
When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.

Since the Shaken given by Dragon Ferocity doesn't seem to reference the Intimidate skill at all, I believe you can stack the Shaken effect from multiple criticals(or multiple stunning fists) to make an opponent Frightened or Panicked.

But what if you hit someone with a successful Stunning Fist, and the attack that delivered the Stunning Fist also happens to be a critical hit? Do they get Shaken twice, becoming Frightened immediately? Or are the only Shaken once, because they've only been hit by one attack(which met both qualifiers?)

Whether or not you Skalds can give allies any bonuses to DR that they have is irrelevant to the original question, due to the following line:

James Risner wrote:
Core Rulebook p208 wrote:
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

So let's say you get that 11 DR/-, and share that among allies. Your allies also get your rage powers, including Increased Damage Reduction. This would give them an increase to their DR, but because they are already getting the same increase to DR from the exact same source, it has no effect. Their DR stays at 11 DR/-

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