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that's messed up but should totally do that scenario, now his next mission, save his evil son.
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Well for starters tell him to stop letting villains go. Unless its some oath I have not looked at paladins are under no obligation to let evil live. While giving mercy is fine now and then killing evil will never make a paladin fall. Even if it was the wrong greater good choice.
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Well, the first thing I wonder is: do the other PCs have to face an equal level of lose/lose situations, or is it just the Paladin because he has that "nice" possibility to fall?
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Build up an arching series of side-treks (not necessarily full blown adventures) during which he has the opportnity to tie up a hefty number of loose ends.
The paladin redeems his son, frames the evil prince in front of the court for his wickedness, and so on.
If you don't want to sacrifice a number of narrative tools (and I know they are such things), devise an adventure that starts with "you have been put to test, now it's the time to show your valor" - a higher up in the church, crusading outsider, wise but dying from old age oracle - and at the end of it he can achieve his goal(s) with no evil slipping away or dire consequences.
Sometimes it's just a matter of balance between grim, gritty realism and unadulteraded satisfaction.
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Damn...you've been beating up on him pretty good. I think I'd be moaning to you as well, lol.
You could the next villains be something that clearly has to die without any alternative. So no you can to the right thing or rescure someone.
For example the BBEG could be some undead with his undead family and none of them regrets what they are and they all are clearly evil to the core and nothing good arises if they are allowed to live.
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Give him an un-apologetically evil bag guy that will fight to the death, who was up to some evil that threatened innocent people without offsetting a greater evil that will befall them in its absence.
Let the paladin ride off into one sunset without the sounds of screams and crunching happening in his wake.
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Harsh..
Did you do anything else similar to any other member of the party? Because if you did not you are just screwing your player for picking a paladin, which is one of the reasons people dont like playing paladins.
Most GMs see a paladin PC and immediately think, ohhh a paladin i have to put him in situations where he would fall or otherwise yadda yadda yadda, but at the same time they dont do anything like that for any other good or LG character in the group.
I understand paladins need to sometimes face moral issues to test their faith and such, but providing such hardships without giving the same considerations for the other PCs is just poking your finger in the player's eye.
Here is the test i run normally. If the player was not a paladin, but a LG fighter, would you have done the same thing?
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He's playing a paladin that doesn't take the easy road. This is noble and praiseworthy, but also hard. Maybe having him receive some recognition for his choice for the narrow road would be nice.
Maybe he encounters some people who have been doing great work, and it turns out they've been inspired by the paladin's mercy and self-sacrifice.
Maybe some deeper, harder, long-lasting good comes from his choice for mercy and justice rather than simply killing whoever needs to be killed. Maybe one of the recurring villains changes his ways and is redeemed. Maybe the ex-villain even turns into a powerful ally who turns out to be vital in a greater conflict.
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I'd say a good dose of unambiguous evil is called for, demons, evil dragons, undead, give him something he can heroically dispatch.
Its ok to OCCASIONALLY test your Paladin because he is a Paladin. But it has to be every now and then. And there should be some "pay off" for all the extra pressure placed on him.
Usually the "pay off" in my games are RP situations. Usually the Paladin is respected and listened too by those in power. You dont usually ignore a Paladin in my game when he speaks up. RP power like that can be the counter balance to the extra headake you place upon him.
*Edit: I would also like to second MCV's post. Along the same line I was thinking. I like the redeemed villain idea alot.
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From a storytelling perspective, these things have their own rules; storytelling rules, not Pathfinder rules!
When the hero undergoes such trials as he has, and managed to face them all without falling and he has suffered for his faith by sacrificing his wife, son, thousands in war, etc., then he should be rewarded for his faith. You know he would have been punished for a fall!
The concept here is that he must choose to sacrifice because the world will be a better place for his sacrifices. For a satisfying story, we must see a conclusion! If that conclusion is a vindication of his paladin ideal then you've created a satisfying story. If the conclusion is that it was all for nothing, don't be surprised that the player feels betrayed! He's gone along with all the badness in the hope of participating in a great story, but if it turns out that the conclusion is that it was all for nothing, then that was a rubbish story!
I understand your desire to make a powerful story for your player, but have the other players lost family, caused wars, been made to murder innocents etc.? Or is it just him? I can empathise with the player; it must seem like cruelty for cruelty's sake, and it will continue to seem so until there is a satisfying conclusion to the story. From his reaction, that conclusion should come sooner rather than later.
I applaud your attempts to craft stories for your PCs, but try to understand the consequences of your choices, and try to see these things from a player's perspective as well as your own. If you do, the experience will be more powerful and rewarding for everyone involved, you included!
I disagree with people who say you've been too harsh on him. I mean, obviously compare it to what you've been doing to other PCs; don't just single him out. But in general, I feel that tough moral choices belong in RPGs, and especially when a paladin is involved. He clearly goes for the straight and narrow path, the ends don't justify the means, which I personally think is laudable. But that choice has consequences; it will often make his life harder. He should expect to feel those consequences, or the choice becomes hollow and meaningless. Just remember to also give him some unexpected good that comes from his choices. Show him that his choices are also having a positive effect. Give him a reason to stay on that straight and narrow path that he clearly prefers for his character.
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Wow, seriously from the way you described it your player has some serious patience with you. It sounds like you've been just brutal to him in your game. Like mentioned above in the thread you need to give this guy some chances to shine without slapping him back down at the same time with horrible outcomes elsewhere. Let this guy have his shining knight in the sun moment. A chance to redeem his son sounds like a good place to start. Even if his son was executed for his crimes wouldn't it be better to go out redeemed from his path of evil? Depending on the structure of your world, what about a way to redeem his son and earn a pardon for the sons crimes by the king through service to the crown? Maybe redeem the son and have him throw himself on the mercy of the court/crown to be charged with a suicidal mission against a great evil in defense of those he once wronged. With your players help, maybe he can succeed, but even if he dies I would still see it as a better outcome than have to slay his own son or see him executed.
WOW! It seems like the pally is getting all of the bad things that can be thrown at him. It almost sounds like he is the only one in the party. How old is the pally supposed to be in game and how old is his spawn?
I will agree with several of the above posters: Give the paladin a satisfying conclusion that ties up some of the loose ends in a positive light. Start with the recurring villain: perhaps a redeemed former enemy of the paladin's teams up to bring the tyrant down: hopefully in full view of the remaining pure-hearted nobility, where the tyrant's evil plans were laid out and foiled.
Then move on to his familiy situation. He fights his son's evil master-- a very tough fight, but his valor melts the coldness in his son's heart, and his son joins him in defeating his former master. The son renounces the ways of evil and begins the path of redemption.
Storylines like these need to reward the player for making the moral high ground at the cost of expedience. The paths of good and law are harder to follow than the paths of evil and chaos-- and the character (and the player) need to receive an ultimate reward for that.
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Settling things with his son would be the best option but it is problematic given the the son has done some pretty nasty things in the intervening time to call his father out. So even if the Paladin captured and converted his son away from the dark-side the law of the land would demand his son's death. I suppose I could overlook that but I am not sure he will, he could even see it as another fall or suck scenario which would be pretty counter productive.Build up an arching series of side-treks (not necessarily full blown adventures) during which he has the opportnity to tie up a hefty number of loose ends.
The paladin redeems his son, frames the evil prince in front of the court for his wickedness, and so on.If you don't want to sacrifice a number of narrative tools (and I know they are such things), devise an adventure that starts with "you have been put to test, now it's the time to show your valor" - a higher up in the church, crusading outsider, wise but dying from old age oracle - and at the end of it he can achieve his goal(s) with no evil slipping away or dire consequences.
Sometimes it's just a matter of balance between grim, gritty realism and unadulteraded satisfaction.
Could you allow this route, and have there be an opportunity for the paladin to "stand" for his son. Basically staving off the death penalty for some other for of penitence and the son comes under the responsibility and protection of the player's paladin?
If you do this, don't then trn around and have the son become an ass again and destroy the paladin's good name. Let the man redeem his son well and truly.
Nothing prevents good from saying "this person deserves to die, so i killed him" (provided those are good reasons: rape, wonton murder, mass poisonings, starting the zombie apocalypse,
The only thing that prevents lawful good from doing so is that that's not always legal... without some sort of warrant or authorization from the local authorities.
Even if he's against all killing, he should be dragging these people into prison (or more likely given the difficulty of keeping anyone in most D&D jails, the authorities will be beheading them and burning the body)
If this sort of thing i happening a lot then i would moan too, even if i wasn't the paladin player, what i want to say is that i don't want every victory to be a bitter one, i don't want to constantly be placed in no win scenarios.
Also why didn't the pally raised his wife? You know when the party has enough money and magic to reach the place and be back quickly.
In addition it seems that you have house ruled the alignment (at least a bit) in your games, because killing the innocent prince is an evil in the PF alignment system and the paladin would fall for that. My question is, did the paladin player knew about the house rules before starting the game?
If this sort of thing i happening a lot then i would moan too, even if i wasn't the paladin player, what i want to say is that i don't want every victory to be a bitter one, i don't want to constantly be placed in no win scenarios.
Also why didn't the pally raised his wife? You know when the party has enough money and magic to reach the place and be back quickly.
In addition it seems that you have house ruled the alignment (at least a bit) in your games, because killing the innocent prince is an evil in the PF alignment system and the paladin would fall for that. My question is, did the paladin player knew about the house rules before starting the game?
The party didn't murder the innocent prince, based on the parenthetical statement in the OP.
I agree that this has been pretty brutal. I say bring on the incorporeal undead.
I mean, what?
We call this "forking." You come to a point where you have to make a decision between two choices. Either way you decide you know you are going to have to give up something. Doing this to a PC rarely can be good for character building and storytelling. Do it too much and it's antagonistic. Ease up on the pally.
You killed his wife and turned his son into the antithesis of what he is because he chose the tougher road? Please don't tell me you have his son raise her as undead against him. Let the pally redeem his son and restore his wife. Please.
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Give him something unapologetically evil and quit with the nonsense.
1) If he has to beg you not to put him in a moral quagmire just once, you might be overdoing it. The game is supposed to be fun lets not punish a player for trying to be a good paladin
2) I am avoiding the obvious jokes with word choices like "moaning" and having "a big go at you."
3) Seriously, give him a break with the kid...
So he now has the opportunity to be a Good Darth Vadar and turn his Evil Luke Skywalker Son back to the light?
That's pretty awesome story telling. You should just talk with him to the side that the rewards will be worth the trials. You should also not shirk on your end of the bargain - if he succeeds in turning his son to the light give him his son as a leadership cohort.
well in this case, if you throw things like this to all your party, then i dont see the issue.
However something like this could be a GOLDEN RP opportunity. I mean an anti paladin can "fall". It would be neat if you set things up for the father to save his son.
Anyway, as long as you are spreading the love between your entire party then there is nothing wrong with this.
Not only that as a scenario there is nothing wrong with the DM taking a background story and using it as part of a plot, so this works fine. My initial concern was if you were heaping all the stuff on the paladin and not the others, but that doesnt seem the case.
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Bringing someone back from the dead is an evil act in my setting and requires another life as part of it's components.
I had a big reply for you but then caught this.
Punitive.
Your game style and setting is morbid, depressing, and doesn't sound rewarding. I totally get it that different people like different things, but personally all I'm getting is pessimist. You see the bad in every situation and you make the most of it. Personally as a player I wouldn't find that "gritty" or "realistic". I'd find it a great big downer.
I get consequences for action, but your world seems to be tailored to suit CN characters at best. You might want to poll your other players to see how they're enjoying the setting.
Have his god come to him, thanking him for his valourous service, but with a special task. The Archdevils in Hell have stolen an important artifact, the path will be filled with trials and tribulations that no mere mortal could hope to face, and so the task falls to him, who has proven himself as a paragon of the faith.
During his journeys into hell, let the divine flow through him freely (granting x2 or x3 the number of usual smites, so he can go all out), throw him a bunch of demonic abominations that are unsaveable. In the process of cutting swathes through the legions of hell, he encounters a powerful demon, and through out the fight that nearly has him on the ropes, have him roll a perception check to hear an oncoming sound, if he hears it roll a knowledge religion check, at which point he recognizes it is the sound of *Insert Divine Herald Here* and have the herald help lay the smackdown on the baddie, or buff up the pally so that he can finish the fight and win the day. If he doesn't here it and stuff, just wait 1d3 rounds and have the Herald come bursting out of no where.
For added effect, have him die at the end due to some big bad enemy (perhaps a divine herald of hell lashes out from the shadows). He regains consciousness lying on the fields of Heaven, a hoarde of Angels surround him, but in the crowd is the face of his wife. He will be returned to the material world, for his devotion is in need, but he can take his wife back and they can live their lives, or he can leave her to enjoy the gifts of heaven and await his return. Ta-da! Resurrection without human sacrifice or evil magic.
Oh, and what do you know, when news of the slayed demon spreads (perhaps one of the god's sends their Herald to the Material Plane to speak of your mighty hero and reignite the fires of faith in the world), his Son is called out to test himself and slay this nearly legendary paladin. Ta-Da! Chance for redemption!
If getting to be a Terminator on Steriods fighting pure evil in the pits of hell, and getting kudos from the gods isn't enough to make him feel special and rewarded, the chance to save his family provides the RP satisfaction. Maybe his choice with the wife in heaven can help influence the son, i.e. Mom is back home, so quit being a punk and do your chores, or in the end you made the best choice for her, showing that you still love and care for her, and him, maybe she speaks to her son from heaven) then the player can help guide him and such, with authorities not pressing charges as your paladin has put his good name, and near legendary reputation on the line, the son also has to help put an end to the Blackened Rose problem. Now when the Party has to face them, the BR Anti-Paladins may be debuffed or weakened (Having had to fight their way out of a temple when it was discovered due to the Son's intel, they're exhausted, or used up some of their dailies, or maybe their armour smith got arrested so they're in battered equipment).
Loose ends are tied off, and the "Goodest" choices have a pay out that can be used recurringly at your discretion. Feel free to play loose with the rules (like when you beat a video game and get the bonus level with inifnite ammo, invincibility, etc...) during the Hell adventures but don't let him KNOW this. Afterwards, make it clear the boons were a one time thing since he was funneling the distilled power of a god, this way, he won't expect every trip to hell to be an easy walk in the park.
Sorry for the length, I talk way too much.
Lots of GMs like to throw no-win choices like these at Paladins for no other reason than the choice of class the player made. Was the father that bad a parent, that his son made an Instant and Cardboard flip Heel Face Turn?Have you ever thrown this type of Hobson choice at a non-Paladin?
This speaks to the points I've made. Paladins are those type of characters that people with a certain range of mentalities just love to screw over.
I've seen this too much to disagree. I'm just happy it wasn't a fall or fall situation, which I've seen more commonly.
What Anguish said.
It seems that your world is very different than the typical DnD worlds, also it seems that you want to play very depressing games (or at least that specific campaign), and it seems that the paladin player doesn't like that, which is something to be expected if there wasn't enough warning before the game started.
I suggest that you ask the rest of the players if they want to continue playing this kind of game, if yes then simply suggest the paladin player to sit this game out, if no start another game which is a lot more "typical" and happy.
In a morally relevatistic world or game how can one be either a paladin or evil?
For example the paladin was on a mission and got an message that his wife was dying, he choice to continue the mission for the greater good (ignore the message) so I killed of his wife and turned his son in an Anti-paladin set upon destroying his father for his betrayal (he believed his father could lay on hands heal her).
You are mean.
So I was wondering what do people think is the perfect scenario for the paladin to shine without any moral quandary what so ever?
Gee, I don't know, letting him be a hero without making him choose between "duty" and "doing the right thing"? Anything that is not a lose/lose scenario.
I would not enjoy your "lose/lose scenario" games btw. Well, I would enjoy GMing for you and doing it in reverse, so you know how it feels as it grinds away at you, session after session.
+1 to showing some positive consequences.
Seeing happiness and bountiful harvests and just lawful rule in the country as a result of the true king throned.
Visitations from his wife, perhaps helping out as a guardian spirit or jut as reassurance.
Redemption of his son, who could come to understand that serving the forces that killed his mother just to get back at the father who didn't save her is a ridiculous choice, and that he has to pay for his illthought crimes.
The Paladin's is 36 and his son is 21.
Real quick thing: He was involved with his wife at 15? The ages are kind of... close.
Back on topic, I'd say that a good reward is in order. Possibly something homebrewed, like a blessed weapon from his deity that scales with his paladin level as long as he continues on the path.
Honestly, though, killing off your player's character's family seems overly rough of a problem to pose. Maybe my group has just been more laid-back than your group is, but the situations look way harsher than anything that I've played.
As others have noted, it sounds like you need to balance the scales a bit. You've repeatedly forced the paladin to choose between grim alternatives, then followed up with consequences that feel like punishments.
Give him some positive consequences: Perhaps his merciful deeds have led one of the villains that he spared to a change of heart and the man joins the forces of good. Perhaps his reputation for justice inspires a local ruler to offer him a fiefdom.
Make sure that the next dyed-in-the-wool villain he encounters doesn't surrender: Let him be the agent of justice.
In a world with magical events, some "lose/lose" scenarios may turn out to be possible after all. A powerful supernatural creature might allow him a (limited) wish, resurrection for his wife, or a powerful magic item that makes a previously unwinnable scenario achievable.
Give the paladin a chance to achieve reconciliation with his son and lead him back to the path of good.
It's a med-EVIL setting alright....
It's the DM's responsibility for the players to have fun. Are your players having fun? If not adjust your game style accordingly...
The player chose Paladin for a reason, and while some players revel in the moral maze of damned if I do/damned if I don't, I get the feeling that this player isn't one of them. At the very least the player should enjoy some pay-off for all this endless crap that seems to enter his life.
Cheers
Mark